[EURO] Opinions on GruppeM intake

[Tobster]

Most people agree that SRIs aren't the way to go, and you just end up sucking in hot air, but that a CAI results in a loss of low end torque.

I've seen the GruppeM carbon box intake before:

http://www.gruppem.co.jp/application/ram/ramphoto/images/honda_accord_cl7.jpg

but I hadn't before seen this particular model:

http://www.gruppem.co.jp/pr_images/fhc_image.jpg
http://www.gruppem.co.jp/pr_images/fhc_cutmodel_en.jpg
http://www.gruppem.co.jp/application/supercleaner/photo/images/honda_SC0507_CL7.jpg

It's basically and K&N filter as an SRI but with a heat shield around the cone, directed to where the air would be flowing normally anyway.

Of course, being GruppeM, it's still expensive (about $500).

What do people think about this one?

(You can find the intake section in English at
http://www.gruppem.co.jp/en/product/intake_ms/index.html)

[Hoffy]

I can see merit for the Ram Air model (top one) but unless there is a pipe from the front of the car to it how it can be an "Air Ram". It would simply suck the air from where the resonator was. Removing the fog light would help a bit.

I cannot see how the Super Cleaner (bottom one) would get much cold air unless you removed the fog light so cold air is forced up into the engine bay through the existing hole. Maybe if there was a larger diameter pipe from the end of the filter down through the hole to ensure only cold air is sucked then I would be the best of both worlds.

I would probably go with the top one myself but at almost double the price of the bottom one I would rather go with one of the normal CAI's and put up with the low end loss.

As for the bottom end loss, isn't that a result of sucking the air through a longer pipe? Wouldn't a larger diameter pipe resolve this problem?

[Tobster]

As for the bottom end loss, isn't that a result of sucking the air through a longer pipe? Wouldn't a larger diameter pipe resolve this problem?
There's an optimum size. A larger diameter pipe will possibly make it even harder to suck the air in: try sucking water through a metre of hose pipe and then try it with something like a vacuum cleaner hose -- you'll see what I mean! ;)

Too small, and it won't get enough; too big, and it will labour to draw it in.

It's all to do with the volume of air the engine can draw in and what works at the low end of the scale will be different to the high end.

The short ram will obviously be easier for the engine to draw in air, but the problem is with the heat from the engine bay. If it were protected from the rest of the bay and cool air was directed from the bumper to the inlet, then it might be a winner...

Ideally, what you almost want would be a dual inlet air intake: something that keeps the low down torque, and then opens up a second inlet that allows for a lot more air when needed for the upper rev range. You can now get butterflies for exhausts that open up when required -- I wonder of something like that would work for an intake?

[learner]

k&n do have sth different (model No. RC-5051A*)..... you can direct cool air right into it....

http://www.knfilters.com/universal/apollo.htm

http://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AR.jpghttp://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AS.jpg

does anyone try this????

[Hoffy]

k&n do have sth different (model No. RC-5051A*)..... you can direct cool air right into it....

http://www.knfilters.com/universal/apollo.htm

http://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AR.jpghttp://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AS.jpg

does anyone try this????

Now that looks interesting. I cannot seem to find any details on the performance gains. It's got to be better than the std air box and filter.

What would be interesting is if you mounted the air hose just behind the fog light vent to draw cold air directly in rather than just draw the air from the cavity. :rolleyes:

[Tobster]

Or, if you want to make sure you don't suck up any water, let the filter draw air from the cavity, but feed the cold air into the cavity first and direct it at the filter...

I hadn't found those Apollos...

[Hoffy]

The K&N site says that the Oz distributor is Rocket Inductries. I have sent them an email to find out if they are available here. Will post when I get a reply.

I was in two minds to go the CAI but this has changed my mind.

[Tobster]

$210 at http://www.ingramsauto.com.au/default.asp?d=102025

I couldn't find them listed on Rocket Industries website.

Presumably any dealer who stocks K&N filters should either have them or be able to get them in.

[aaronng]

Why don't you just pull out the resonator, and DIY a long tube from the bottom of the standard airbox down to behind the foglight? That would be the same thing as the K&N ripoff.

[BiLL|z0r]

That's what I'll be doing eventually. Worked well in my lancer, and heaps cheaper.

[euro77]

k&n do have sth different (model No. RC-5051A*)..... you can direct cool air right into it....

http://www.knfilters.com/universal/apollo.htm

http://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AR.jpghttp://www.knfilters.com/images/universal/RC-5051AS.jpg

does anyone try this????

considering the filter is encased, does it mean this is street legal?

[Tobster]

That would be the same thing as the K&N ripoff.
I don't think K&N have ripped off GruppeM -- because GruppeM seem to be the K&N people in Japan. If you look at the pics, they don't even change the factory intake runner. It just looks like they've stuck an Apollo filter on the end. The GruppeM pic doesn't have the cap stuck on the end (which the hose fits into) which you can see in the K&N pics.

It probably depends on who you run into, but you would think that this would qualify as "encased" and legal...

[aaronng]

I don't think K&N have ripped off GruppeM -- because GruppeM seem to be the K&N people in Japan. If you look at the pics, they don't even change the factory intake runner. It just looks like they've stuck an Apollo filter on the end. The GruppeM pic doesn't have the cap stuck on the end (which the hose fits into) which you can see in the K&N pics.

It probably depends on who you run into, but you would think that this would qualify as "encased" and legal...
Hehe, I meant that K&N charging over $200 for that enclosure is a ripoff when you can achieve similar performance using the stock airbox, k&n panel filter and routing a tube from the bottom of the airbox to the bumper.

The gruppe M enclosure on the other hand is nice. :thumbsup:

[Tobster]

I was trying to work out whether there'd still be any advantage from the (probable) greater surface area of the pod, but basically I think you're right -- which is essentially a DIY Comptech Icebox...

[Hoffy]

I was trying to work out whether there'd still be any advantage from the (probable) greater surface area of the pod, but basically I think you're right -- which is essentially a DIY Comptech Icebox...

It would be a crude DIY Icebox as the Icebox also includes a new cover with I assume has better air flow properties as they have removed some of the internal fins that could affect the airflow. I haven't looked inside the std lid to see what is there or if they could even be cut out.

[aaronng]

It would be a crude DIY Icebox as the Icebox also includes a new cover with I assume has better air flow properties as they have removed some of the internal fins that could affect the airflow. I haven't looked inside the std lid to see what is there or if they could even be cut out.
The top lid of of the airbox that comes with the Icebox is larger to accomodate the larger panel filter that is included. That's the only difference between the Icebox and a standard airbox with its resonator removed.

And as to a pod filter being better than a panel filter.... It depends on the setup. Usually pod filters go with SRIs or CAIs, and it makes more power. If you had a fixed setup and somehow manage to swap a panel filter for a pod filter while keeping everything the same, I doubt you will get more power.

[Tobster]

It would be a crude DIY Icebox as the Icebox also includes a new cover with I assume has better air flow properties as they have removed some of the internal fins that could affect the airflow. I haven't looked inside the std lid to see what is there or if they could even be cut out.
Fins are normally there just to direct and smooth airflow: removing them won't generally make much difference and may even be detrimental depending on the nature of the engine -- some like a smooth flow, some like it swirling, etc. What's more important is the amount of air the engine can draw in and how easily it can do it. A larger box with a bigger filter should allow more air flow.

Potentially a pod filter with a larger surface area can allow a greater volume of air through than a panel filter -- but if the pod is enclosed then it may negate that effect unless enough cool air can be fed to it.

[aaronng]

Potentially a pod filter with a larger surface area can allow a greater volume of air through than a panel filter -- but if the pod is enclosed then it may negate that effect unless enough cool air can be fed to it.
Yeah, this is why I think the K&N enclosure is a rip off. If the clearance between the filter and enclosure is very small, then the side surface of the filter will not be utilised at all.

[Peekay34]

Yeah, this is why I think the K&N enclosure is a rip off. If the clearance between the filter and enclosure is very small, then the side surface of the filter will not be utilised at all.


Maybe....but K&N being a filter company surely would have done tests to prove it works....They are experts at this....

And because it is enclosed would be street legal.

[Hoffy]

And because it is enclosed would be street legal.

So if you just have a pod filter at the end of the old tube it is not street legal. What about the CAI with the pod in behind the bumber where the resonator was?

[Peekay34]

So if you just have a pod filter at the end of the old tube it is not street legal. What about the CAI with the pod in behind the bumber where the resonator was?


POD filters that are oil based that are not enclosed and may possibly loose oil that may drip on to the street are illegal.

[Chris_F]

this is the intake i'll be getting - within the next couple of months i should have some detailed photos and impressions for everyone :p

[stephen8512]

hahah chris i was wondering when u were gonan speak up :D

[euro77]

this is the intake i'll be getting - within the next couple of months i should have some detailed photos and impressions for everyone :p

Which one Chris? the GruppeM or the K&N Apollo?

[Sulley]

this is the intake i'll be getting - within the next couple of months i should have some detailed photos and impressions for everyone :p
Wow, loads of mods!
flywheel,HD clutch,Mugen zorst, gruppeM air intake!

I saw the gruppeM intake on a CL7 2 days ago, looks great!

[raz05]

I'd love to have one too, but it's just too expensive for an intake, will be interesting to compare the gains on the injen intake and the gruppeM intake.

Btw, here is my thought
JDM - GrippeM air box
USDM - Injen Cai

[aaronng]

Wow, loads of mods!
flywheel,HD clutch,Mugen zorst, gruppeM air intake!

I saw the gruppeM intake on a CL7 2 days ago, looks great!
I would be more interested in knowing where did you see a CL7 in Australia!!! :D

[Sulley]

im in singapore atm!
had a seat and a good look at a cl7!

momo steering wheel, recaro seats, bits of faux CF trim on the woodgrain plastic on the CL9, no VSA...

[aaronng]

Ahhh... that's cool. I've seen pics of the Singapore EuroRs. There's not just a handful, but in the pics that I saw, 6 of them were having a meet! Because cars are expensive, they only bother to import the EuroR CL7! Haha, nice.

Love those seats! In Japan, the Accord Type S has the option of having the same Recaros. Check this pic out! Notice the auto gearshift? :D

http://asia.vtec.net/featurecar/AccordTypeS/images/option2x.jpg

[Chris_F]

euro77, i was reffering to the gruppeM, i really like it's design.

Sulley, the GruppeM intake won't be for a good couple of months yet before that comes i have a maxim works header and a metal cat from the euroR on order.

Hopefulyl my stereo stuff gets sold soon, i'm using the money from it to pay for this stuff

[Chris_F]

damn those recaro's are nice, does anyone know if the seats made for the Type S come with side airbags? i'm pretty sure that in Australia at least removing a safety feature (ie airbags in the chair) is illegal and so we cant have recaros?

[stephen8512]

yeah nah the recaros dont have side airbags afaik
they look yummy....

[Sulley]

euro77, i was reffering to the gruppeM, i really like it's design.

Sulley, the GruppeM intake won't be for a good couple of months yet before that comes i have a maxim works header and a metal cat from the euroR on order.

Hopefulyl my stereo stuff gets sold soon, i'm using the money from it to pay for this stuff

good stuff!
if you don't mind, could u pm me the prices you paid for these stuff as im prettty interested as well.
You might want to look at getting a lower final drive. Its seems a worth while mod for about $1700. Better all round accelaration.

[Chris_F]

pm sent sulley

i had a bit of a think about the lower final drive, it's something i probably would have done along with the clutch and flywheel if i hadn't been so fixated on getting a I/H/E :p

[Chris_F]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4281/hinf0405012ly.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8094/hinf0405026dj.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/1857/hinf0405038ly.jpg

i've been searching high and low for information on this intake and after a long search and many japanese websites i came across the above picutres.

these pictures have convinced me to go ahead with the intake. The pod filter seems completely closed off from the engine bay and given the great heat shielding properties of carbon fiber this may be the only intake that offers the instant throttle response of a short ram with the mid-high end gains of a CAI without the low down torque losses.

I've also located an australian business (based in sydney) that is able to import these intakes - if anyone is interested send me a PM, unfortunately they aren't cheap.

I'm hoping to place my order for this part in the next couple of days, then in a matter of a few weeks i'll have full impressions and perhaps even some dyno results of my I/H/E/jdm cat combo.

[Tobster]

I'm looking forward to hearing more about it! :)

[Chris_F]

well i purchased the intake today, and in two weeks i should have it :thumbsup:

[raz05]

Nice choice Chris

[Mr.P]

awesome, lemme know when you have it one and share some of your experiences with us ^^


PS. From memory, isn't the Mugen intake just a lil more dearer than GruppeM?

[Chris_F]

the prices for these intakes are very very similar hard to say which is more expensive. I chose the gruppeM because i believe it has the best design on the market :)

[Tobster]

If you look at the prices on each of their Japanese sites, yes the Mugen is more expensive: 102900 yen for the Mugen (about AU$1170) and 81900 yen for the GruppeM (about AU$930). Those prices include Japanese tax which you wouldn't pay as it's an export. You're likely to have to pay duty on it here though, plus the shipping costs.

The Mugen is a whole replacement carbon fibre airbox, whereas the GruppeM is essentially a K&N pod with a carbon fibre heatshield to protect it from the rest of the engine bay.

[Chris_F]

yea you gotta add a couple hundred for shipping and import duties etc. onto those prices. for that sort of money the mugen box is just close in design to the standard box for my liking.

[BiLL|z0r]

That's an awful lot of money for a damn CAI and filter. What sorta gains we talking. I'm expecting 5kw tops.

[Chris_F]

gruppe m has been dyno tested at about +10hp and 5nm atw with the resonator still in place and no cold air ducting what so ever. i think this intake with exhaust manifold and exhaust in place should be worth about 15hp atw (with ducting). Important thing to remember is that the power should be over a wider rpm range then say the injen because the pod is attached at a clsoe proximty to the inlet manifold. peak numbers of "only" 10-15hp mightn't sound impressive, but in mine and many ppl's opinions they are the best designed intakes on the market for the euro. :thumbsup:

[raz05]

It's worth for more JDM :D

[Chris_F]

lol forgot to mention that... JDM Yo!

ray what intake do you have?

[stephen8512]

cannot WAIT for this to get on ur car chris!
will look mad when i see it in the flesh ;) ;)

[Chris_F]

yea me either man... so keen to get this part. Unfortunately it has to be made to order as theres not stock of it in japan. The latest it will arrive is about mid march, so still a few weeks to wait. by that stage my car will have 4 new performance parts, really looking foward to a dyno and of course the track!

[Chris_F]

The intake has cleared customs in sydney and should arrive tomorrow or monday - here's a sticky beak ;)

i got the hots for what's in the box...
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8646/gm16rr.jpg
still got the hots...
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9071/gm26qh.jpg
sexy shielding everywhere :eek:
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7686/gm30hj.jpg
01-0507...
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1193/gm41vm.jpg

[raz05]

can't wait to see that thing in real life

[Chris_F]

yea me either :p

[yfin]

the quality looks very impressive. So is there any piping drawing air to the filter or does it just draw air from the cavity?

[Chris_F]

Nope, unfortuneately the kit doesn't come with any piping :( - not sure if it's completely neccessary (as the CF shield only allows air to be sucked from the "resonator cavity") but I might put the biggest piping i can in the fog light opening and direct into the intakes cavity

[yfin]

Nope, unfortuneately the kit doesn't come with any piping :( - not sure if it's completely neccessary (as the CF shield only allows air to be sucked from the "resonator cavity") but I might put the biggest piping i can in the fog light opening and direct into the intakes cavity

I see - the Mugen kit doesn't either. I don't think you need it.

I have always wanted to try my Icebox without the horn as in some respects the horn is a restriction of air itself. That said sometimes companies develop the intakes to be a particular shape to create a certain resonance etc and stuffing around with the design will only make things worse.

Kit looks beautiful. Make sure you take lots of photos of the install :p

[enkay]

haha yer that kit looks good! cant wait to see it in chris' car lol.. take a video also! wanna see wat the engine sounds like with that on it =P.. how much did that cost u btw?

[Chris_F]

I see - the Mugen kit doesn't either. I don't think you need it.

I have always wanted to try my Icebox without the horn as in some respects the horn is a restriction of air itself. That said sometimes companies develop the intakes to be a particular shape to create a certain resonance etc and stuffing around with the design will only make things worse.

Kit looks beautiful. Make sure you take lots of photos of the install :p

Yea i don't think the piping is 100% neccessary, but on a sunny day on the track it may provide a bit of benifit? Who knows i'll have to give it a go and see. I think you should just take the horn off and give it a go, I doubt comptech put that much R&D into the product (tuned resonance frequency) probably only something expected from mugen but even then it's doubtful. I think you should just take the horn off and give it a go. I use to have an air tight seal with my ducting and airbox and i noticed no volume increase or perforamnce over stock. Now I just have the ducting directed to the opening of the airox witout being attached. It's a lot louder, and throttle response/performance is slightly improved in initial driving.. but after a while i think i feel the effects of heat soke as the airbox has access to hot engine bay air.. basically the more i drive the poorer it feels.

So basically if your going without the horn i'd probably reccomend a mini horn like the mugen box so that you're drawing in air from the resonator cavity and not the engine bay. Interesting to see how it goes... be pretty funny if the horn was a big waste of time haha

[Spec83]

I doubt you will need the air pipe - you would be surprised how much air gets sucked in around the headlight fittings and from the looks of things thats how the air box is designed - i used to have a similar design intake on my excel

Resonance will be of no concern - but it does look as thou some CFD analysis was undertaken as the box funnels the air to the filter in a unique way. Resonance is important in the intake pipe (after the filter), and is probably why the stock intake piping is left well alone... honda engineers dont spend 100's of hours of design in this area for nothing :)

[Chris_F]

I doubt you will need the air pipe - you would be surprised how much air gets sucked in around the headlight fittings and from the looks of things thats how the air box is designed - i used to have a similar design intake on my excel

Resonance will be of no concern - but it does look as thou some CFD analysis was undertaken as the box funnels the air to the filter in a unique way. Resonance is important in the intake pipe (after the filter), and is probably why the stock intake piping is left well alone... honda engineers dont spend 100's of hours of design in this area for nothing

hmm, i'm not sure if the design allows air to come in from the headlight fittings? it seems to be seeled off to that area, but i'll defintiely check it out when i have it installed. What's CFD?

i think you ahve a good point about the intake piping being left alone, Mugen also make use of this stock part of the intake system.

[stephen8512]

hahaha enuff chatter chatter chatter
chris! install the damn thing alreadY!!!!!
hahahaha

[ALN]

it's really nice air filter mate. Can't wait to see it on dyno figure.

[hotout]

Ideally, what you almost want would be a dual inlet air intake: something that keeps the low down torque, and then opens up a second inlet that allows for a lot more air when needed for the upper rev range. You can now get butterflies for exhausts that open up when required -- I wonder of something like that would work for an intake?[/QUOTE]

my 92 Accord (F22A9) had dual intake runners. IIRC the 2nd intake opened ~ 3-3.5k rpm (you could feel a little kick), dunno why the later Hondas didn't stick to this approach..

[Matell]

hmm, i'm not sure if the design allows air to come in from the headlight fittings? it seems to be seeled off to that area, but i'll defintiely check it out when i have it installed. What's CFD?

i think you ahve a good point about the intake piping being left alone, Mugen also make use of this stock part of the intake system.

CFD = Computational Fluid Dynamics = Fun provided you know what you're doing (I do :P)

You don't need to worry about airflow. The massflow of air that enters the area infront of the left wheel (usually occupied by the resonator chamber) is more than adequate to meet the needs of the engine at redline. Don't concern yourself with air starvation....it's not going to happen. In the case of your GruppeM intake it will primarily just draw in, and and also be fed air through the hole in which the the stock airtube passes.

[yfin]

So basically if your going without the horn i'd probably reccomend a mini horn like the mugen box so that you're drawing in air from the resonator cavity and not the engine bay. Interesting to see how it goes... be pretty funny if the horn was a big waste of time haha

I wonder whethe the mugen horn is a waste of time - look at this pic! It only connects to the rubber OEM tube a few cms higher.

When I install my body kit i think I will remove the comptech horn - the only thing is if it is detrimental (or too noisy) it is a pain in the ass to reinstall again.

The reading I have done suggests a shorter intake tract is beter for high rpm power - and removing the Comptech horn will still be essentially sucking in cool air just like the Mugen/Gruppe.

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/images/products/17200-XKB-K0S0_detailA_3.jpg

[Chris_F]

CFD = Computational Fluid Dynamics = Fun provided you know what you're doing (I do :P)

You don't need to worry about airflow. The massflow of air that enters the area infront of the left wheel (usually occupied by the resonator chamber) is more than adequate to meet the needs of the engine at redline. Don't concern yourself with air starvation....it's not going to happen. In the case of your GruppeM intake it will primarily just draw in, and and also be fed air through the hole in which the the stock airtube passes.

Thanks.

Looks like i'll just get rid of any tubing if that's the case.


I wonder whethe the mugen horn is a waste of time - look at this pic! It only connects to the rubber OEM tube a few cms higher.

When I install my body kit i think I will remove the comptech horn - the only thing is if it is detrimental (or too noisy) it is a pain in the ass to reinstall again.

The reading I have done suggests a shorter intake tract is beter for high rpm power - and removing the Comptech horn will still be essentially sucking in cool air just like the Mugen/Gruppe.

Good point... maybe the mugen horn is that length because it's a safe guard to heat soak only cold air is drawn in (the stock rubber thing may be slightly too high). Also, if I'm not mistaken the mugen comes with some sort of air direct panel? This may direct cold air toward the funnel meaning a shorter length is needed to access cold air. The comptech design may use the longer horn to get this cold air because it doesnt have an air direct?

I might be speaking crap, but i'll find a picture of the mugen Intake kit and see. If this air direct is an important part of the design, maybe something similar would work well for the GruppeM.

[yfin]

Good point... maybe the mugen horn is that length because it's a safe guard to heat soak only cold air is drawn in (the stock rubber thing may be slightly too high). Also, if I'm not mistaken the mugen comes with some sort of air direct panel? This may direct cold air toward the funnel meaning a shorter length is needed to access cold air. The comptech design may use the longer horn to get this cold air because it doesnt have an air direct?

I might be speaking crap, but i'll find a picture of the mugen Intake kit and see. If this air direct is an important part of the design, maybe something similar would work well for the GruppeM.

These are the parts of the Mugen kit from Kingsports. Not sure what this air direct panel is - which part is it?

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/images/products/17200-XKB-K0S0_3.jpg

Maybe you are right about the rubber connection being too high. What I could do is keep the top part of the icebox horn and remove the lower. The top part of the horn runs to where Euroaccord13's left hand is in this photo. That way I essentially have a mini horn - shorten the intake tract and also eliminate a corner (albeit smooth) in the intake tract. The theory being why suck air through a long straw when a short one is possible.

Look forward to seing what gruppe did with their design

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=508/620DSC01472.JPG

[yfin]

Chris - not so sure about your comment re access to colder air. Anything past that OEM rubber is well away from the engine bay. It is also interesting to note Euroaccord13's thread here (http://ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20016&highlight=intake) (his great drawings below)

If injen decided to sit the end of the tract high - good enough for me :thumbsup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/EuroAccord13/EuroAccord/AirIntakeReviewWeb.gif

[Chris_F]

the air direct parts i'm refering too are directly above the intake horn, and directly to the right of the intake horn. I may be completely wrong about their function, but i think they are used for that.

I think removing the lower part of the intake horn may free up some high end power, but possibly at the sacrifice of low end. The mugen however is meant to give good gains throughout the rev range so i doubt this will happen given how similar the design would be after you removed it. May aswell give it a go :) And if you like it you can sell the bottom part of the horn to me and I'll stick in the fog cover opening to direct some air vertically to the gruppeM intake haha.

I think the biggest design flaw of the mugen intake and others is the relatively small filter surface area. The filter surface area of the Mugen intake for the DC5r is at least twice the size!

[Chris_F]

I think that the injen illustration is a bit misleading, they sit significantly lower than that, from the pictures i've seen. I think it's safe to say anything below the stock rubber piece will be drawing in cold air. I removed my rubber piece and would now put it back on :p but considering i'll be getting the GruppeM on tomorrow, there's not much point.

The way gruppeM has designed their intake is to place the filter as close as possible to the throttle body (directly attaching to the stock rubber inlet tube) and then as matt said, utilise the stock "intake tube hole" to get cold air. I'll hae to see if the carbon fiber shielding is enough to precent heat soak.. but i'm sure it will be :thumbsup:.

Also the use of the stock inlet tube on the gruppeM makes me wonder if this piece is well designed and not needed to be replaced? Mugen rarely replaces this part on its intake (it doesnt on the DC5R and cl7 intakes).

One final point, is that the CAI's on the market INJEN and K&N both use metal tubing and besides adding extra wait, wouldn't heat soak eventually become an issue as the fairly direct connection to the throttle body would allow heat to conduct through the metal tubing? The gruppeM using all rubber/plastic and carbon fiber coponents could possibly insulate better against heat and reduce intake temperatures :p

[yfin]

I think that the injen illustration is a bit misleading, they sit significantly lower than that, from the pictures i've seen. I think it's safe to say anything below the stock rubber piece will be drawing in cold air. I removed my rubber piece and would now put it back on :p but considering i'll be getting the GruppeM on tomorrow, there's not much point.

The way gruppeM has designed their intake is to place the filter as close as possible to the throttle body (directly attaching to the stock rubber inlet tube) and then as matt said, utilise the stock "intake tube hole" to get cold air. I'll hae to see if the carbon fiber shielding is enough to precent heat soak.. but i'm sure it will be :thumbsup:.

Also the use of the stock inlet tube on the gruppeM makes me wonder if this piece is well designed and not needed to be replaced? Mugen rarely replaces this part on its intake (it doesnt on the DC5R and cl7 intakes).

One final point, is that the CAI's on the market INJEN and K&N both use metal tubing and besides adding extra wait, wouldn't heat soak eventually become an issue as the fairly direct connection to the throttle body would allow heat to conduct through the metal tubing? The gruppeM using all rubber/plastic and carbon fiber coponents could possibly insulate better against heat and reduce intake temperatures :p

There were some injen cai install pics by a member Euro_r a while ago. It showed the intake sitting that high - I think that is where euroaccord13 got the location from. The links to those pics have gone unfortunately. It was a great pic as the bumper was completely removed :(

I don't know how much of an issue heat soak is with metal tubing. Probably minimal given the huge volume of cold air sucked away from the engine bay. Short ram is a totaly different story

[Matell]

Anyone considering removing the air horn from their icebox derived setup should also keep in mind that the primary purpose of the air-horn is to develop smooth airflow into the intake tract.

The bell-mouth allows a gradual acceleration of air particles into the opening which also reduces the static air pressure, thus creating suction. This effectively increases the intake capture area to around the sides of the intake opening and assures the airflow is reasonably uniform.

Removing the air horn will only be of detriment to the induction air flow.

In this case the flow state of the air is much more important than the intake temp change which will be negligible at best.

These my help you illustrate your point yfin.
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1660/img2889sml4bo.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1524/img3811sml6ii.jpg

[Chris_F]

There were some injen cai install pics by a member Euro_r a while ago. It showed the intake sitting that high - I think that is where euroaccord13 got the location from. The links to those pics have gone unfortunately. It was a great pic as the bumper was completely removed :(

I don't know how much of an issue heat soak is with metal tubing. Probably minimal given the huge volume of cold air sucked away from the engine bay. Short ram is a totaly different story

Oh true, maybe i got the injen and K&N mixed up.

Yea i'd say the effects of heat soak would be minimal, unless your doing endurance racing or something. I've touched CAI tubing before (not on a euro) and it can get a bit hot after hard driving. But like matt said the difference to intake temperature would be fairly insignificant.


Anyone considering removing the air horn from their icebox derived setup should also keep in mind that the primary purpose of the air-horn is to develop smooth airflow into the intake tract.

The bell-mouth allows a gradual acceleration of air particles into the opening which also reduces the static air pressure, thus creating suction. This effectively increases the intake capture area to around the sides of the intake opening and assures the airflow is reasonably uniform.

Removing the air horn will only be of detriment to the induction air flow.

In this case the flow state of the air is much more important than the intake temp change which will be negligible at best.

Interesting, I always assumed that the air horn was design simply to draw in cold air. If the horn does serve this additional function though how does mugen get around this problem? I guess the mugen horn has been design to be that short/in that location with the funel shape. Removing the lower half of the horn on the ICEbox would mean no funnel shape.

Matt, how do you think a pod filter effects the "flow state of the air" in comparison to a panel filter? Perhaps this (more than an additional surface area) helps pod style intakes generally produce (assumedly) more power?

[Chris_F]

thanks for the pictures matt :thumbsup:

maybe the shorter and larger diametre of the intake tube on the injen is why it showed marginally higher power gains then the K&N intake

[Matell]

Interesting, I always assumed that the air horn was design simply to draw in cold air. If the horn does serve this additional function though how does mugen get around this problem? I guess the mugen horn has been design to be that short/in that location with the funel shape. Removing the lower half of the horn on the ICEbox would mean no funnel shape.

Chris, the mugen intake has a bell mouth as shown in the kingsmotorsports pics leading into a venturi (funnel shape) which accelerates flow, reduces static pressure (casuses suction) and increases dynamic pressure (flow velocity.


Matt, how do you think a pod filter effects the "flow state of the air" in comparison to a panel filter? Perhaps this (more than an additional surface area) helps pod style intakes generally produce (assumedly) more power?

A pod filter is good in that it has a greater capture area that is less likely to be affected by area's of stagnant flow (corners) as found in an airbox of a panel filter. Ideally in terms of fluid flow the best intake filter design I've seen is the Apexi filter. If I could get one of these to fit the end of my Injen CAI I would. It may only be of theoretical benefit, and not of much practical worth on such a low powered and coarsely tuned car as the Euro, but I'd still prefer it over the bluff faced Injen/K&N Filter and even the twin cone BMC that I found to have not been as good as I hoped via a dyno in this particular application.

[Chris_F]

Chris, the mugen intake has a bell mouth as shown in the kingsmotorsports pics leading into a venturi (funnel shape) which accelerates flow, reduces static pressure (casuses suction) and increases dynamic pressure (flow velocity.

Ah yep, I thought the funnel would have somethign to do with it. Maybe if something similar can be done/made up for the comptech icebox it would give some benifits.


A pod filter is good in that it has a greater capture area that is less likely to be affected by area's of stagnant flow (corners) as found in an airbox of a panel filter. Ideally in terms of fluid flow the best intake filter design I've seen is the Apexi filter. If I could get one of these to fit the end of my Injen CAI I would. It may only be of theoretical benefit, and not of much practical worth on such a low powered and coarsely tuned car as the Euro, but I'd still prefer it over the bluff faced Injen/K&N Filter and even the twin cone BMC that I found to have not been as good as I hoped via a dyno in this particular application.

Thanks again for taking the time to fill me in. Would it be possible to get some sort of adapter to run the apexi filter? Yea i remember reading the results of your dyno.. was a bit dissapointing, i thought the BMC would give some gains aswell.

I should have much better/detailed photos of the gruppeM tomorrow but the filter picutred here is the same one used in the CL7 application and the adaptor to the right of the filter is similar too.

This wide based cone shape with what looks like an aerodynamicaly shaped dome on the top is probably designed to give the air better flow characteristics as it's drawn into the filter. As for the carbon heat shielding i'm not sure if it's design plays a part in this aswell? Probably there to simply avoid the heat from the engine bay.

http://www.gruppemeurope.com/terms_pix.jpg

[Matell]

This wide based cone shape with what looks like an aerodynamicaly shaped dome on the top is probably designed to give the air better flow characteristics as it's drawn into the filter. As for the carbon heat shielding i'm not sure if it's design plays a part in this aswell? Probably there to simply avoid the heat from the engine bay.



Correct, and yes the carbon surround will act as a thermal barrier, but more importantly provide a directed mass of air into the intake tract.

[Chris_F]

Sounds good to me. Really can't wait to see this thing in more detail and on the car :D

[yfin]

Anyone considering removing the air horn from their icebox derived setup should also keep in mind that the primary purpose of the air-horn is to develop smooth airflow into the intake tract.

The bell-mouth allows a gradual acceleration of air particles into the opening which also reduces the static air pressure, thus creating suction. This effectively increases the intake capture area to around the sides of the intake opening and assures the airflow is reasonably uniform.

Removing the air horn will only be of detriment to the induction air flow.

In this case the flow state of the air is much more important than the intake temp change which will be negligible at best.




love your work Mattell - thanks. very interesting.

This is what the air feed would look like - no good do you think Mattell?

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4070/Intakes009.jpg

Actually that pic above is not quite like the top part of my icebox - mine is more like this with a more funnelled top part

http://home.att.net/%7Ep.caulfield/IMG_2652.JPG

It is amazing how many different intake designs there are now for this vehicle.

[Chris_F]

You got that right yfin... The euro has HEAPS of intakes available for it - I guess we can thank the tsx and euroR for that.

Honda's in general seem to have a lot more tuning parts available then other manafacturers, you find this aswell?

as for the intake design... i'm you could make a custom lip around the top part of the comptech icebox horn.. but really i think the difference will be unnoticeable except maybe ver the last few hundred rpm in the rev range.

But i still think you should give it a go and see what you think.

[Matell]

Up to you to give it a go, but from a fluid flow aspect (in theory) that is bloody ugly, and not particularly desirable. You'll have separated flow on the inside of the tube, vorticies etc. I honestly can't see you gaining anything at all from it or what you're hoping to achieve in the first place.

There's nothing at all wrong with the stock bellmouth, and there'll be stuff all flow loss in the 90degree bend as it has such a large diameter and bend radius. (I could work out the exact flow condition but can't be arsed ;) )

If you really want to shorten the intake tract length so it's similar to the Mugen intake without being destructive maybe have a look at bunnings or a pump supplier and they may have a bellmouth design suitable for you.

But give it a go anyway and see what you think.

[Chris_F]

well the intake's on. Unfortuneately i didn't get a chance to take any pics pre install (the cameras battery was dead and i had to get it done quickly after uni).

Will have pics + an impressions thread done up shortly.. maybe even a sound clip or two :)

[stephen8512]

picsorban chris
u know the rules :D

[enkay]

yay cant wait! haha if only i had money

[egSi]

props to chris and his euro with mad baller mods :thumbsup:

pics now :p

[Chris_F]

sorry couldn't get pics of the intake off the car! was so disapointed when the camera shut off within a few seconds coz of a dead battery...

Thanks to raz_05 for this pic - should get some better ones up shortly :)

also excuse the dirty engine bay! eww... needs a clean

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5766/gruppem25ep.jpg

[stephen8512]

awesome pic chris
that CF heatshield (to the untrained eye, i.e cops :D) makes the intake look stock.
im sure it would be louder too as it is technically SRI with a heatshield over it
next on the mod list......DEFI gauges :D
a necessity for track demons
oil press, oil temp, water temp :D
once again, congrats on ur purchase
*waits patiently for J's racing exhaust to be fitted :D)

[raz05]

Good on u again Chris, the sound of the intake was awesome~

[Ferrarista]

I know this question was raised earlier but it wasnt really answered.

Theoretically its inclosed...does that make this legal?

[Chris_F]

thanks guys - i tell you what the intake is VERY loud. But the great thing is, it's only loud when you want it to be.. anything but full throttle and it sounds stock ;)

and steven what you talking about man... my intake is stock! lol

[driven]

nice mod! Looks awesome!

i wonder how the sound compares to the Injen CAI.
post up a sound clip!

[Chris_F]

I know this question was raised earlier but it wasnt really answered.

Theoretically its inclosed...does that make this legal?

Sorta...... let's just say it's residing in a grey area :p


i think the sound is similar to the injen actually, maybe a bit more raspy and less throbby? i'd have to compare side by side to tell...

sound clip comming soon :)

[enkay]

woah looooks good loving the CF haha =D

[Matell]

Looks fantastic Chris!!!!!.

Who cares if the gains don't end up being worth the expense, the appeal and obvious quality of workmanship that has gone into something that integrates so perfectly with the engine bay more than makes up for the cost!.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Chris_F]

Matt, your coming to the euro cruise this weekend yea?

It'll be interesting to compare intake sounds.

Yea i'm very happy with the finsih and everything... its a very very snug fit. These things are made by hand and it's amazing because if it was a few mm wrong in any direction it simply wouldn't fit

[egSi]

wow! that thing at least LOOKS neat chris!


more pics u bogan! this shit is exciting :eek:

[Chris_F]

hahaha exciting? i'm did two ***'s in my pants when i saw this thing! some more pics.. these were taken at night so they probably aren't as clear as they could be (thanks again to ray for taking em)


http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/333/gruppem31ai.jpg

[enkay]

dayumm its so sexy and neat lol.... where r the sound clips! hehe =P

[Matell]

Matt, your coming to the euro cruise this weekend yea?

It'll be interesting to compare intake sounds.

Yea i'm very happy with the finsih and everything... its a very very snug fit. These things are made by hand and it's amazing because if it was a few mm wrong in any direction it simply wouldn't fit

Was hoping to, but not sure at present. I'm pretty sure I have the dreaded clutch issue, and the soonest they can check it out is next Wednesday including an overdue injector service, plus I'm trying to conserve my shit tyre by driving like a granny so I can sell them/trade for a set of GS-D3's.

[Chris_F]

seriously? damn - that master cylinder is a piece of crap.

hmm... well hopefully you can come out anyway - everyone would like to have ya there I'm sure.

[raz05]

No worries Chirs, too bad i forgot to make the sound clip yesterday

[edw-R]

GruppeM carbon box intake :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[yfin]

thanks guys - i tell you what the intake is VERY loud. But the great thing is, it's only loud when you want it to be.. anything but full throttle and it sounds stock ;)

and steven what you talking about man... my intake is stock! lol

Really? Is it louder than the Injen or K&N as they are both very loud - too loud for me.

[Chris_F]

i'm not too sure actually... i'd say it'd probably be just as loud if not louder, given how close to the driver the pod sits in the engine bay

[Tobster]

OK: there have been lots of comments about how it looks, and how noisy it is.

But how does it feel to drive? Is the engine more responsive? Is there a loss of low-down torque compared to stock? Does the heat-shield seem to do its job? What's the "butt-dyno" impression?

[Chris_F]

full write up and review with more pics and a sound clip comming soon - just a bit busy with mid semester exams/assignments. stay tuned :p

[Chris_F]

still havent gotten around to doin a decent impressions right up but i can say that is marginally quieter then the INJEN intake in CAI mode.

Thanks a lot to Matt (Matell) for offering to do a few drive-by runs with me so that I/we could test it out, and ray and john for being the "judgest" today at the euro cruise haha.

[Chris_F]

Finally found a free hosting site.
and the clip of the intake can be downloaded from here...
http://www.gimehost.com/N2YfRwcxHRoVFahjKNnE

not sure how reliable this method of hosting is, but if it doesn't work let me know and I'll ask Stephen8512 to help me out like last time :wave:

[as001]

I wonder whethe the mugen horn is a waste of time - look at this pic! It only connects to the rubber OEM tube a few cms higher.

When I install my body kit i think I will remove the comptech horn - the only thing is if it is detrimental (or too noisy) it is a pain in the ass to reinstall again.

The reading I have done suggests a shorter intake tract is beter for high rpm power - and removing the Comptech horn will still be essentially sucking in cool air just like the Mugen/Gruppe.



I've got the Ice box setup so i thought i would give removing the horn a go to see what the difference was , to my surprise its actually much quiter even when you hit vtec it sounded like the oem setup, driving wise it drove like the resonator was on again as well...
I just put the horn back on I prefer the a bit of induction noise :)

Gruppe M's sound clip class :thumbsup: i would loved to have got one then i found out the price...:(

[yfin]

I've got the Ice box setup so i thought i would give removing the horn a go to see what the difference was , to my surprise its actually much quiter even when you hit vtec it sounded like the oem setup, driving wise it drove like the resonator was on again as well...
I just put the horn back on I prefer the a bit of induction noise :)


Thanks for that! So no difference in power?

[as001]

It drives better with horn in place IMO...
without the horn it felt it had more bottom end and less top end could barely hear vtec even with both front windows down and sunroof open all i could hear was wind noise

[Chris_F]

it's strange because when i removed the resonator on the stock airbox the volume increased significantly. I guess the horn doesn't resonate air but actually improves the way it is drawn in? It at least makes it louder? haha

thanks as001 for testing that out, i was curious to what difference it would make aswell

[as001]

It would be interesting to see how your Gruppe setup would work with resonator replaced with the pipe setup like the icebox you would get more induction noise and colder air shouldn't be hard to mock it up at bunnings and would be cheap as well just to test

[Chris_F]

not sure what you mean? I don't think adding anything to the gruppeM will make it louder or perform significantly better. It's simply a pod filter shielded with a bit of CF not an airbox like the comptech one.

[as001]

http://home.att.net/%7Ep.caulfield/IMG_2652.JPG

your still drawing air from factory resonator to the gruppe?
I notices the resonator draws air just just front of the engine (felt around where my resonator used be connected basically hoses connected to more hoses) thats why i suggested if ditch the resonator and get a straight through 'should' get better flow

[Chris_F]

my resonator was moved quite a while ago.
I just didn't understand what you meant in your initial post about this.

I've just taken the fog light cover off for the moment and i doubt even that does anything

I'll have to test it out sometime :thumbsup: