Australian Hondata and Hondatech exhaust Preliminary results.

[Peekay34]

Hi just some information for all you guys and girls out there in Euro land some information which you have been waiting for in anticipation.

Firstly please do not contact Hondatech (James Australian Hondata rep) yet as these results are not fully complete. They are preliminary results. He Authorised this for release as it has been kept close to every ones chest who has been involved.

My car has been the Australian development car for the Hondata ECU upgrade. It has been a long process with many many months of development work (which is still not finished but close). Many many dyno runs ECU's backward and forward to the States...etc. And also the develpment of an exhaust system (not quite complete) to suit the Euro has been in process.

The results as it stands with James Exhaust and ECU upgrade = @ 141KW at the wheels. The torque figures between standard and Upgraded well you have to drive it to appretiate it ...fantastic :D :D :D :D .

More work is being done on the ECU with it going back to the States for another Tune version and the exhaust finalised which both will be marketed. I will post a pic to show roughly what it looks like tomorrow.

The exhaust is a 3 inch stainless system with high flow cat. The sounds is like Wow no comparrison to the Fujitsubu exhaust I had. It is a split system. Some experimentation is still required on the resonators/mid muffler before it will be sent away for manufacturer duplication and sale. This exhaust is Dyno proven. Even without the Hondata Ecu upgrade it is well worth it.

Anyway I will leave James to post his comments if he so wishes.

[Suntzu]

Sounds very promising. Can you tell me what it felt like to drive on the road ? Just after general comments. Exciting stuff indeed :)

[tinkerbell]

damn, i was hoping you would say the ECU was ready,

i know two blokes who will buy it once it is...

was it done with stock intake tract and all?

[Peekay34]

Done with a Comptech Icebox.

But James is talking about doing a Intake as well.

Driveabilty is great very nice to drive.

The ECU was developed for Driveabily and Performance in mind.

[raz05]

141Kw@wheels is a lot with juz ECU tuning and some bolts on mods

[Chris_F]

141kw atw with just exhaust and ecu tuning? very impressive. Now lets see the dyno:D

[aaronng]

Imagine the potential with CAI and a bored throttle body.... yumm.... 141kW ATW is just the tip of the iceberg. I hope that they will have versions of flash for each case of intake only, exhaust only, intake and exhaust.

[EuroAccord13]

It's little things like these that are revealed to us makes us itch for more information! :D

Impressive figures I must say.... :)

[jonolee]

thought it was 140kw....

[Sulley]

the euro is 140kw at the fly.
probably abt 100kw at the wheel.
while the test car has 141kw at the wheel so thats 40% more power!!
im wondering how the car will compare to one with the comptech SC.

Is the hondata exhaust a single outlet?
or it retains the dual muffler look?

[BiLL|z0r]

That sounds awesome. Now you got a whole bunch of Euro drivers drooling till it's ready. Any 0-100 figures yet? 141kw at the wheels is very impressive indeed. Add a few other intakes mods, TB and weight saving and bye bye turbo cars and V8's.

[yfin]

Great to get an update :D Thanks Peekay

One question - what was the range of the dyno figures before the ECU tuning? It is hard to know what 141kw means without knowing the range of "before" figures. Can you also post up the dyno before and after - would be great to see whether the gains are all in one spot or across the range.

regards from the Cook Islands!
y

[yfin]

one other question - do you know if given all the development is Hondata planning to provide buyers with paperwork to shows that the mods meet EPA requirements? eg reflash is one thing - but a shiny new cat is going to be obvious to the LAPD and I expect they will want to see documents.

[Peekay34]

The cat is a Metal Cat which is made and designed in Australia. Why would you need EPA documents. The exhaust is at around or beneath EPA noise level requirements. And a Honda Euro provided it has not been modded to the point it sticks out like a sore thumb is hardly going to be pulled up by Cops and checked, it is just not that type of car. Also as stated before and after figures and not up to me I do not have a copy of the figures James has these ask him. I have only seen visually.

[baboo]

Looks very promising PeeKay!

[Thorn2004]

40 more kw atw? Nice :) Now all I have to do after it is released is convince the missus that we need the extra power ! I can see it now, 'but dear we will be able to overtake even faster!' ;)

[yfin]

The cat is a Metal Cat which is made and designed in Australia. Why would you need EPA documents. The exhaust is at around or beneath EPA noise level requirements. And a Honda Euro provided it has not been modded to the point it sticks out like a sore thumb is hardly going to be pulled up by Cops and checked.

Yeah, of course - I agree. The paperwork testing noise and smog is a "like" rather than an absolute "need" - but I would definately like to have it. Just wondering if this will be provided.

You know some developers - eg John Bowe etc with the performance packs for Ford, etc provide paperwork to prove the mods are compliant, etc.

[aaronng]

Stock euros should dyno at around 115kW. The TSX dyno'd at 169.9hp (126kW) by vtec.net , so we should be only 9kw down in power compared to them.

[Peekay34]

Link to Graphs



http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=278

[Peekay34]

Stock euros should dyno at around 115kW. The TSX dyno'd at 169.9hp (126kW) by vtec.net , so we should be only 9kw down in power compared to them.


Maybe so but you are forgeeting KW at wheels do not mean everything. Torque is also a consideration

[Peekay34]

Exhaust Picture,

[yfin]

oh - I love those graphs :thumbsup: (I presume your Icebox was fitted even though it doesn't say so?).

Can't wait till I get back to Aus for this. I really like how the torque curve goes up at 5000rpm and some of the gains are fantastic - eg 6000rpm - look at the difference in torque!

One of the things I notice with the stock car is how it loses pace in the 1st to 2nd gear change. According to these graphs - it should power away when you drop it into 2nd from a red line 1st gear. I also love the almost 30% KW gain at 6000rpm - it must be so mean now at VTEC.

Peekay - are you planning on keeping your Icebox? Or are you changing to the Hondatech intake? I note the remark on the Hondatech site --- "NB!! The only aftermarket bolt on accessories supported by the Flash ECU Upgrade will be Hondatech Australia bolt on’s no other manufactory parts will be supported". I would prefer to keep the icebox considering i just put in a new ITG filter.

[yfin]

Can you tell me what it felt like to drive on the road ? Just after general comments.

Yep - cough up some detail Peekay! How does it compare to that heavily modified Corolla Sportivo you used to own? :D

[baboo]

wouldn't the 3" exhaust loose a bit of torque down low?

[Peekay34]

wouldn't the 3" exhaust loose a bit of torque down low?

None at all look at the Graphs. Yfin in relation to the Rolla ...well has been a long time ...I prefer the Honda. And yes will work with the Icebox ok I still have that on the car and getting these figures.


Link re exhaust http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=230&page=2 see last comments froms James.

[Chris_F]

the graphs show some good gains from the ecu. But nearly 130kw for just an exhaust and intake (if thats right?) seems unusually high?

[tinkerbell]

the graphs show some good gains from the ecu. But nearly 130kw for just an exhaust and intake (if thats right?) seems unusually high?

not from such a car as massively undertuned from the factory as most K series Honda's are...

[Tobster]

I don't doubt the car goes, and without meaning to sound like too much of a wowser, all the provided graphs show is that the reprogrammed ECU works much better than the stock version with that particular exhaust.

For a real comparison, there should be a graph of a completely stock car too.

I'm with Baboo -- without the ECU, I would have thought that a 3" exhaust would be too big for the car...

[tinkerbell]

but no one is yet to get 15kw gain from just exhaust change for TSX or Euro

same dyno or what?

dynapack VS DynoDynamics is completely different...

like comparing apples to oranges...

[tinkerbell]

yeah, so the 141kW on the HUB DYNO = about 125kw on the ROLLER DYNO that peekay got 115kW on...

so it is USELESS talking about the 115kW

it is only USEFUL to talk about the 130 vs 140 numbers...

[tinkerbell]

maybe i should have said:


not from such a car as massively held back from the factory as most K series Honda's are...

[Peekay34]

No sorry I won't ....remember it is still in development.... And besides that it is all relative I drive the car and I know what a huge diffrence these mods make. When it is complete it is up to James to supply this information He is the one who is marketing this stuff not me. My car is just the test unit.
And not to be un helpful I won't drag my car to find out 0-100kms times. I don't do that I am not interested. Direct all you enquirys to James at Hondatech. And for those who don't understand the design of the exhaust it is possible based on the amount of restriction in the standard system from the headers to the cat. I have seen it cut and the amount of restriction just in that section is huge.

[ALN]

Can I know what type of dyno you are using when you got 141 kw at the wheels ? 141 kw with your mods is really great result. Can I know how much does it cost for the ecu tuning?

[Peekay34]

As stated contact James at Hondatech he has yet to work out pricing. Look back some threads their is a link to his site and contact details.

[yfin]

yeah, so the 141kW on the HUB DYNO = about 125kw on the ROLLER DYNO that peekay got 115kW on...

so it is USELESS talking about the 115kW

it is only USEFUL to talk about the 130 vs 140 numbers...

I agree - the peak numbers mean nothing between dynos - it is all about comparing the same car on the same dyno before and after the mods.

Peekay's 115kw figure was a roller in 3rd gear -- so you can't compare that number to any other dyno except the one used on that day and in the same gear. I know because I was at the same dyno day. Shucks = the last time my car will beat Peekay on a dyno has passed :D (i got 120 but hey Peekays car was just a baby at that time)

[EuroAccord13]

Almost irrelevant but I'll say it anyhows because it has to do with the HP anyway :D


Well since Peekay's car is being dynoed in 3rd gear, it should be continued in that gear however, I do must state that it is more accurate with the gear closest to 1 ratio which is the 4th gear.. I'd prefer to see the before and after figues on the dyno in 4th...

Gear Ratios
1st Gear 3.27
2nd Gear 1.88
3rd Gear 1.36
4th Gear 1.03
5th Gear 0.83
6th Gear 0.66

[Peekay34]

Who said anything about the gear I was in during this test not me....That was an old run Yfin was talking about.


Here is a video anyway http://blkcrx.hondata.com.au/blkcrx/hondatech/dyno.avi

Also information regarding the Dynopack Dyno...They claim to be more accurate than roller dynos.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/dynatech.html

[yfin]

Who said anything about the gear I was in during this test not me....That was an old run Yfin was talking about.


Yeah sorry for the confusion - i was talking about the old 115kw run yonks ago - there is no point comparing that figure to any of the runs on the chassis dyno..

The before and after figures on the chassis dyno are plenty enough for me - the actual numbers don't mean anything - what is worth knowing is the percentage change at different points on the curve. How does the curve look - how does it differ? Eg - there is definately 20%+ in both power and torque at many RPM points. Importantly, there are also no losses anywhere.

Let me be the first to boldly predict a 14.5 sec 1/4 mile (std model, hondata zorst, header, intake, reflash)! :D

[Peekay34]

how come graph show vtec cut off at 7000rpm?

australia cant have 7600rpm too? or even better 8000 rpm :D


The car now redlines higher than the standard factory euro.

[Peekay34]

9000rpm? :D


Yeah right

[albii]

Let me be the first to boldly predict a 14.5 sec 1/4 mile (std model, hondata zorst, header, intake, reflash)! :D
yeah def has to be the standard model and i would agree 14.5 to 14.7 sec quarters. i've yet to see a luxury run low to mid 15s

[ALN]

so how many kw you get before ecu tuned?? what mods have you put to your car?
141 kw really good result once again

[Peekay34]

Read my signature ..no offence but is a bit obvious. I do have a few more but non performace related. I have the mugen wing coming should have it in a few weeks I hope.

http://www.mugen-power.com/street/accord/parts/parts8.html

[Peekay34]

yeah def has to be the standard model and i would agree 14.5 to 14.7 sec quarters. i've yet to see a luxury run low to mid 15s


My car is a Luxury.

[Peekay34]

New links detailing my previous exhaust (fujitsubu) against new with ecu upgrade. And yes EuroAccord13 was done in fourth gear.

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=280

and http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=279

Read and enjoy.

[albii]

My car is a Luxury.
yeah i know.i'm saying to achieve mid 14s with these mods it would need to be the lighter standard model.

[Peekay34]

One day I will try it but only on a track.... Don't want to give Steve Bracks anymore money that he does not deserve.

[EuroAccord13]

One day I will try it but only on a track.... Don't want to give Steve Bracks anymore money that he does not deserve.

I'm up for it as well, maybe when you're ready, we'll organise one with the rest of the members here to go to Calder or Heathcote :)

[yfin]

New links detailing my previous exhaust (fujitsubu) against new with ecu upgrade. And yes EuroAccord13 was done in fourth gear.

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=280

and http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=279

Read and enjoy.

Wow - those graphs look awesome.

James - if you are reading this - any chance you can interpose on a graph Peekay's beta Hondata with a stock S2000? I see you have a turbo S2000 but I would be interested to see a stock s2000 reading on your dyno.

[Omotesando]

Liked the comparison dyno graphs thanks!

Seems like a fair bit of gains for the EURO with just I/E and Hondata, but like YFIN mentioned its the torque hole being fixed at 5000-6000rpm which most impresses! :D


The EVO 6 running 19psi though in comparison also was interesting. Since it is AWD and has a lot more drivetrain loss than the FWD Euro but nevertheless it surprised me with the amount of low-mid end power it has before the turbo starts working, compared to the majority of other cars (such as DC2 and DC5's) which seems to lack power at the same RPM vs the Euro!!


ADDED: being too lazy too write. I mean the EVO 6 with a 2.0L engine only, all wheel drive drivetrain loss, and without the benefits of MIVEC on the EVO 9. The low-mid power thus seems to be quite impressive to me considering the turbo gave it a lot more higher top end power as well!

[Chris_F]

the hondatech exhaust provides a +10kw gain atw over the fujitsubo exhaust?

[Omotesando]

The Fujitsubo is which type exhaust? It is only cat back?

From what I read 'this' exhaust in development changes something before the cat as well, in the front pipe area?

+10KW atw sounds like a lot though it seems dynapack dyno proven.


Wonder how much gain the original Fujitsubo gave over stock exhaust?

[Chris_F]

the fujitsubo provides little to no gains, just improved sound really.
something else would have had to be done to the cat or before the cat to see that sort of gain.

[Omotesando]

the fujitsubo provides little to no gains, just improved sound really.
something else would have had to be done to the cat or before the cat to see that sort of gain.


That's a shame, since the Fujitsubos are the best exhausts out of Japan.. althought the president also being the president of JASMA (not sure about now) kind of mean he can't concentrate on the power output only..


Wonder if there is hi-flow cat in the 'new' system for the 10KW?

[Chris_F]

That's a shame, since the Fujitsubos are the best exhausts out of Japan.. althought the president also being the president of JASMA (not sure about now) kind of mean he can't concentrate on the power output only..


Wonder if there is hi-flow cat in the 'new' system for the 10KW?

the fujitsubo exhaust is very well made though and maybe with a highflow cat and header you could see gains but by itself i dont think it'd do much at all. but it looks and sounds very good. Yea i'd say probably high flow cat and maybe even some alterations pre-cat like other members have suggested.

[xtercii]

what makes you say Fujitsubos are the best exhausts outta japan? honestly I have never heard such statement from anywhere.

[ALN]

I'm using fujitsubo exhaust the gain was not so bad combining with my other mods. but to say it's a best exhaust still doubt it. dyno pack reads 10% higher than other dyno so it is hard actually to say it's really get that much gain

[Omotesando]

When I was working in Japan, I was equally shocked that it is pretty much common knowledge that FUJITSUBO make the best exhausts over there. I think the President of FUJITSUBO (FGK) being the president of JASMA says a lot. They also happen to manufacture the most numbers of aftermarket exhausts in Japan, obviously it is because they are selling like hotcakes over there. In fact, they were selling so well that Fujitsubo have jacked up both wholesale and the retail prices fairly recently.


The thing is, people who live here down under only know APEXi and thinks its the sxxts. Same thing goes with the Americans.

In reality, brands like HKS, TOMEI, FUJITSUBO even DEFI (Nippon Seiki) just don't get as much credit overseas as they do in Japan. I mentioned HKS even though it is already a well known brand, because over there in Jap land it is GOD. No one gives a damn about TRUST/GReddy or BLITZ over there. APEXi isn't that much better except for its electronic parts.



Anyway, I'm not surprised at all that you have never heard of it. The Skyline and Silvia boys were only catching up with Fujitsubo exhausts not too long ago in Aust.

[Omotesando]

I'm using fujitsubo exhaust the gain was not so bad combining with my other mods. but to say it's a best exhaust still doubt it. dyno pack reads 10% higher than other dyno so it is hard actually to say it's really get that much gain


Well the original thread says the 'new' Hondata exhaust made 10KW over the Fujitsubo (unknown system from Fuji though), that was on the same dyno so it is comparable.

But then again the 'new' exhaust had mods BEFORE the cat as well, which makes it a useless comparison if you ask me because the Fujitsubo was a cat-back.

And I was wondering if the CAT was modified to a high flow one as well, as this is a big restraint in power output in the system.

On a 200awkw car if a CAT is removed on a 3 inch exhaust system, there is easily another 20-25KW at the wheels released instantly. :rolleyes: That is why a lot of people risk the $10K fine... :cool:

[Peekay34]

The factory Cat was removed and replaced with a Super High flow Cat. But there are a few other design things that were done.

[Tobster]

Some people say that there's a lot of restriction in the cat. I've read other threads where people say there isn't a lot of restriction in the cat and hi-flow cats are a waste of money (there was a huge discussion about this at tsxclub.com). Personally, I don't think a high-flow will of benefit if that's all you change in the stock system. A hi-flow cat will only be of use if you're changing the entire system (i.e. bigger throughout) -- as is the case with the Hondatech.

People who remove their cats and drive without one are just plain irresponsible and deserve to be fined IMO.

[Chris_F]

interesting... so i take it the fujitsubo comparison was done with just the cat back while the hondatech exhaust contained a new cat and some other mods?

that might explain the difference...

[tinkerbell]

might????

[Chris_F]

haven't confirmed with peekay yet whether the fujitsubo was tested with other mods in place..

if so then the difference in exhaust is qutie negligable it comes down to the other changes

[Peekay34]

Yes mate was tested with other mods in place. So with all mods in place the exhaust provided a 15kw gain.

[Chris_F]

i see... quite impressive

[adammet04]

i think we all need to wait until the system is live and being sold before talking about gains etc

this is very exciting and i hope we get the news of when its released soon.

good work peekay on being the test mule for the aus work for this reflash..

keep us posted mate!

140 atw is freakin awesome...

[Peekay34]

Up another 7 kw now with another version of reflash. And thank you for your message. As you can understand this been a very slow process. Losing my car for weeks at a time (multiples) for testing has been a bit painful. But when the process is ironed out for you Guys should be a lot easier

[Suntzu]

140kw at the wheels is approx 170kw at the fly if you base it on the fact that the euros are pulling about 115kw at the wheels with 140kw stock at the fly. Also means that that the euro drivetrain is 10% + more efficient than RWD cars at least. :)

170kw would make a fast and balanced car. I reckon over 170kw that it will reduce the balance and composure of the car. :o Torque steer etc.

I said the hondata wasnt worth it before but if it really is 140kw at the wheels on 98ron with decent fuel economy then it is a very worthwhile mod for the money. :thumbsup:

[sodaz]

Very promising results! Will this work for the auto model?

[aaronng]

140kw at the wheels is approx 170kw at the fly if you base it on the fact that the euros are pulling about 115kw at the wheels with 140kw stock at the fly. Also means that that the euro drivetrain is 10% + more efficient than RWD cars at least. :)

170kw would make a fast and balanced car. I reckon over 170kw that it will reduce the balance and composure of the car. :o Torque steer etc.

I said the hondata wasnt worth it before but if it really is 140kw at the wheels on 98ron with decent fuel economy then it is a very worthwhile mod for the money. :thumbsup:
115 and 140 figures are from different dynos. So you can't compare them. :)

[Chris_F]

On www.hondatech.com.au it is says "NB!! The only aftermarket bolt on accessories supported by the Flash ECU Upgrade will be Hondatech Australia bolt on’s no other manufactory parts will be supported."

Looks like I'll have to look elsewhere...:p

[tinkerbell]

is that not just for it to remain "legal"?

[Chris_F]

remain "legal" - how so?

A lot of other modifications out there are very much legal.

I assume it means the ecu has been specifically tuned for the modifications Hondatech will make available , meaning it is a less than ideal solution for people with a variety of other mods (i.e. me).

Unless of course this is a way to promote the Hondatech products by saying the ecu will ONLY support them?

[tinkerbell]

the link you provided above is useless for clarification of what context the statement you pointed out is made...

BTW - i thought that the Hondata for Euro was in the process of being ADR approved, hence my comment....

[yfin]

On www.hondatech.com.au (http://www.hondatech.com.au) it is says "NB!! The only aftermarket bolt on accessories supported by the Flash ECU Upgrade will be Hondatech Australia bolt on’s no other manufactory parts will be supported."

Looks like I'll have to look elsewhere...:p

Yeah - but I asked peekay a question about the icebox and he said it works fine with the flash even though there will be a hondata intake designed. Plenty of the TSX owners are running different bolt ons with hondata so not sure why hondatech is making this NB point. It does need clarification. What does "supported" actually mean? It is just vague.

The other question I have is will the reflash tune depend on the hondatech bolt ons fitted? Or is it exactly the same tune regardless of which bolt ons purchased. I would like to have the option of adding hondatech bolt ons later without a new tune if possible.

Username - you know as well as I do that once this product is released you will hear about it on this site (within 24 hours I promise)! I am sure the configurations and price will be a hot topic of discussion. http://ozhonda.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Peekay34]

Update.. Hondatech extractors tested today on my car ...a further 10kw at the wheels and torque gains what they are I have no idea but suposed to be quite good as I have been getting my eyes lasered so have not seen the results.... final phases being completed prior to manufacturer ..also an update will be done on ecu now to cater for any changes.......... Ring James for any enquiries on when this will be released. I would say a few months more but thats about it ... then then should be on the market.

[Chris_F]

the link you provided above is useless for clarification of what context the statement you pointed out is made...

BTW - i thought that the Hondata for Euro was in the process of being ADR approved, hence my comment....


I don't think the statement was taken out of context at all - it's a very easily understood and clear statement on it's own if you ask me but
a direct link to what I quoted from hondatech:

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=278


Yeah - but I asked peekay a question about the icebox and he said it works fine with the flash even though there will be a hondata intake designed. Plenty of the TSX owners are running different bolt ons with hondata so not sure why hondatech is making this NB point. It does need clarification. What does "supported" actually mean? It is just vague.

The other question I have is will the reflash tune depend on the hondatech bolt ons fitted? Or is it exactly the same tune regardless of which bolt ons purchased. I would like to have the option of adding hondatech bolt ons later without a new tune if possible.

Username - you know as well as I do that once this product is released you will hear about it on this site (within 24 hours I promise)! I am sure the configurations and price will be a hot topic of discussion.

Yea i got put off when i read that statement. I'm sure there's no real problem running the ecu with other parts it just won't be IDEAL. But heck i don't think it's plausable to go as far as to say it will not support any other mods. The ecu reflash in the states is designed to be used with I/H/E of any make/brand. If it only works for those with hondatech parts... the customer base will be significantly reduced

[Chris_F]

10kw from exhaust mani sounds great to me peekay :thumbsup:

if you get a chance can you clarify with James how the ecu will work with other bolt-ons. The injen intake for instance (which is very popular although i don't own it myself)

[Omotesando]

I think James and with Peekay did the right thing by publishing the Hondata as supporting only the I/H/E parts made by Hondatech ! Afterall, this is more like a pre-tuned computer rather than a real time tune and as such, all part are suppose to work as a package.

Some people might think of it as Hondatech trying to sell you every part instead of only the ECU - but if it was me, I'll purchase it all as a package - provided the quality and the gains are good!


With other mods, you never really know if the tuning is completely suitable, especially when Extractors are put into the equation as the very different gas flow characteristics would affect the cars running. 10KW more from Hondatech extractors sounds good! Wonder if that is pre or post Hondata Tune? What about straight bolt on gains?


Also what fuel is being used by Peekay and other testers? :)

[tinkerbell]

I don't think the statement was taken out of context at all - it's a very easily understood and clear statement on it's own if you ask me but



when in that context, it is just James covering his ass if the results arent as good when using other parts...

after all - it is simply a "flash" re-program, it is not a programable ECU...

[aaronng]

Now I realise why the AUDM Accord Euro's Hondata reflash was taking so long. They have 4 versions for each I/H/E configuration. Hondata USA for the TSX only has 1 version!

[Chris_F]

when in that context, it is just James covering his ass if the results arent as good when using other parts...

after all - it is simply a "flash" re-program, it is not a programable ECU...

No I don't think so. In the latest thread it is clearly stated that the stage 3 and 4 ecu upgrade for I/H/E will only be sold alongside hondatech I/H/E products. Clearly they don't have an ecu that supports MY I/H/E or anyone elses for that matter - i.e. the hondata reflash only supports hondatech products as stated in the hondatech.com.au forum.

See where I'm comming from?

Again, I already have an I/H/E and theres no way I'm buying a reflash simply designed for an intake or exhaust (the only ones available to me) - My car with its particular mods is obvisouly not supported and as a result I will not be buying this product.


VERY IMPORTANT
Hondata Hondatech Euro Flash Stage 3 & 4 ECU Upgrades will only be sold with matching Hondatech products, IE Headers / Exhausts. These specifically designed flash upgrades are designed specifically for Hondatech Products only.

Clearly this is the case.

[tinkerbell]

yes, so it is Hondata's loss...

bad luck to them...

[Chris_F]

Yea i know, I was actually hoping you were right all along about it being a "cover the ass" statement - it's dissapointing/frustrating knowing i can't get a hondata ecu reflash for my car.

I guess I'll have to keep praying for a kpro

[as001]

have you looked at custom dyno tuning?

[tinkerbell]

maybe get a Motec or AEM EMS or a Autronic ECU then...?

[Chris_F]

have you looked at custom dyno tuning?

That'd be perfect... but how would that be possible/work?



maybe get a Motec or AEM EMS or a Autronic ECU then...?

Motec is a bit out of my price range, AEM EMS would be great as would Autronic.. but they don't have a drive-by-wire application yet - so ill have to play the waiting game

[as001]

you could go uni chip I got qouted 1,500 (install and dyno tuned included)

[Peekay34]

Yea i know, I was actually hoping you were right all along about it being a "cover the ass" statement - it's dissapointing/frustrating knowing i can't get a hondata ecu reflash for my car.

I guess I'll have to keep praying for a kpro


What do you mean by this statement

Stage 1 Hondata Hondatech Euro Flash Stage 1 – Standard Intake, Standard Headers, Standard Intake will be fine for your car.

A KPRO will never work on the Euro

[tinkerbell]

Motec is a bit out of my price range, AEM EMS would be great as would Autronic.. but they don't have a drive-by-wire application yet - so ill have to play the waiting game

sorry to hear that :(

[Chris_F]

What do you mean by this statement

Stage 1 Hondata Hondatech Euro Flash Stage 1 – Standard Intake, Standard Headers, Standard Intake will be fine for your car.

A KPRO will never work on the Euro

It's been stated before that the hondata reflash is designed to specifically run hondatech parts. And just recently it was confirmed that stage 3 and 4 flashes were only available alongside the hondatech I/H/E package.

I know the kpro won't work with DBW, I was refering to a DBW compatable version that I'm "praying for".

Stage 1 is designed for standard I/H/E and sure I may see some gains (and perhaps even some very significant ones)...But I've spent a lot of money on my mods because I've always planned to make the most of them with an ideal reflash or programmable ecu- a year, two years or three.. i don't mind waiting because i don't just want a solution, i want an ideal solution for my particular application (which stage one is not -for my money).

I think that's pretty sound logic?

[Chris_F]

sorry to hear that :(

cheers for understanding my point of view

[bored]

nice figures

[Peekay34]

I understand what you are saying but I suggest you talk to James before you make your mind up. There is some leeway with stuff...the different stages just indicate the state of tune with each component that has been tuned to fit that type of mod. This stuff was tuned to match each of the mods they will be selling as a staged package.

[Omotesando]

If I was ChrisF I'll be a bit disappointed too.

Unfortunately there are no better ECU options out there.

I don't really see you having a lot of problems using Hondata Stage 1 or 2 if you only had I and E but unfortunately the own brand Headers you have will really affect the flow inside the engine, and any wrong tuning will make the engine ping like crazy :(

Worst still the Hondatech headers need to be fitted with the Hondatech exhaust.


In this case, a Unichip sounds like a better option'?

[Peekay34]

You also have to remember how much testing would we have to have done to do every possible combination of exhaust and intake on the market to be able to get the right mixtures correct...as you understand this would not be possible we would be testing for ever and would have been very expensive to do (who was going to pay to buy the parts?????). Even Hondata in the US has not even done this they have just one flash version. As suggested ring James before you make your mind up.

[Chris_F]

I understand what you are saying but I suggest you talk to James before you make your mind up. There is some leeway with stuff...the different stages just indicate the state of tune with each component that has been tuned to fit that type of mod. This stuff was tuned to match each of the mods they will be selling as a staged package.

Ok thanks, I'll probably be speaking with James in the future to find out if we can arrange something for my particular application.


You also have to remember how much testing would we have to have done to do every possible combination of exhaust and intake on the market to be able to get the right mixtures correct...as you understand this would not be possible we would be testing for ever and would have been very expensive to do (who was going to pay to buy the parts?????). Even Hondata in the US has not even done this they have just one flash version. As suggested ring James before you make your mind up.

From the beginning, I was assuming there would be one universal reflash as in the US. I think it's great that the Australian version has 4 different versions for all different mod combinations. However, I was hoping that stage 4 could be used on any car with I/H/E regardless of brand. Maybe it'd be possible to use the stage 4 as a base map for cars with I/H/E of another brand and make slight alterations for the slightly different flow characteristics of the individuals mods? I guess altering the reflash on an individual basis would be out of the question or very expensive.

I'm also guessing stage 4 would be more effective/more suited to a car with I/H/E then would be the reflash designed simply for the intake? Or is this just to ensure the higher state of tune doesn't clash with the differing mods?

[aaronng]

Actually, I think the US version is tuned only for intake and exhaust.

[Chris_F]

^ ok, didn't know that. The guys in the US were still seeing some improved gains with a header installed though.

[yfin]

Guys this is very interesting:

On a side note we have Toda specific Cam flash upgrades coming out soon, along with increased VTC to 40degress in late September, There also is a huge possibility of Comptech supercharger option also being supported, and maybe also Hondatech Euro Turbo Kit. Again all options will be fully stage able, supporting both Hondatech specific bolt on’s ie intake headers and exhaust and also standard and generic bolt ons.

Supercharge me baby!

http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=295 (http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=295)

[Chris_F]

hehe i found that very interesting aswell!

Perhaps the most interesting part for me is the idea a reflash designed to take advantage of a 40 degree vtc and toda cams may come out. If this comes out in a form that is deemed suitable for my mods I may reconsider my options with hondata. the 40 degree vtc and cams was one of the things making me wanta fully tuneable ecu.

[yfin]

I asked James on his site whether I could reverse the reflash - he said I could only reverse back to stage 1 reflash. Hmmm. Not sure whether that would cost anything but that isn't the main issue (well it could be an issue if I have to pay the full price of the flash again).

Now being risk adverse, I feel far more comfortable being able to reverse any modification on my car. Even the stage 1 (from what I can see) requires 98 ron so it is not as if I could sell the car completely "stock" to a new owner without disclosing this important fact.

As good as a tuner James may be - what if he gets it wrong and people start having problems? I will be the first wanting to reverse this. That may sound dramatic but you must admit it is possible. He could disappear, go bankrupt, etc. It happens all the time in the automotive world to even large companies like MG Rover, etc.

What do you guys see as my options if I wanted to return my car back to stock? Can the dealers reflash the car back to stock? I remember reading here someone say dealers don't have the equipment to reflash the car. :confused:

What do you guys think? I hope you can see where I am coming from. Getting the car back to stock if I need to (whatever the reason) gives me the widest choice of options with this car.

[Suntzu]

I have to say that I agree with yfin. I would need an option to flash back to stock or would not be able to buy.

[Tobster]

Personally, I'm not into tuning street cars (that haven't had major changes like turbos added -- race is a different matter): I believe that there are good reasons why car companies spend millions programming their engine management -- like emissions, fuel economy and longevity of components.

And that's without going into all the insurance hassles!

If it were me, and I really wanted to tune, I'd go for a piggy-back system that can be used to tune just as effectively, but can be removed and the car is stock.

But I'm conservative this way, so each to their own...

[aaronng]

In the US, one guy had his TSX's ECU software upgraded by his dealer and therefore erasing his Hondata reflash. So I think there is still a way back to stock (through the dealer).

[Omotesando]

If you cannot go back to the original Honda factory tune, I'm not touching Hondata upgrade..

What if something goes wrong?

[yfin]

In the US, one guy had his TSX's ECU software upgraded by his dealer and therefore erasing his Hondata reflash. So I think there is still a way back to stock (through the dealer).

Excellent ;). I will see what I can find out from an Australian dealer - including price if possible. Obviously if a dealer wants a truck load of money to reflash that is worth knowing.

[Suntzu]

Still no news on this? I need to make up my mind what im going to do as my lease is up in 6 months. Im thinking WRX actually but would rather get a bit more power from the euro as its a nicer drive!;)

[Gibbo]

Suntzu, If your lease is up before the hondata reflashissue is solved do your self a favour and drive a Mazda MPS3 - i tookone fora drive and they are a rocket. 190 kw in a 3 body. it is one of the fastest things ive been in... and they same sort of dollars as a wrx ($45000 drive away) Can we have an update of how long till this hondata reflash is going to be on sale to the public ?? i know it is important to get it right but surely it must be soon :)

[enkay]

yer i asked on the hondatech forums too but no reply... guess soon?

[Peekay34]

Part of the reason for the delay is the exhaust system. This has been sent over seas to get copied for resale. When this comes back for the first unit to try on the car the rest will be completed.

[enkay]

there has been an update now from BLKCRX on the hondatech forums http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=502#post502

[yfin]

Excellent ;). I will see what I can find out from an Australian dealer - including price if possible. Obviously if a dealer wants a truck load of money to reflash that is worth knowing.

Good news on the update - we are close!

Can someone ask their dealer about the reflash back to stock please? It really is important IMO. One of the members here who works at a dealership (who will remain nameless at the moment) said to me a reflash back to stock was "unlikely" and a new ECU would probably be the option put by the dealer.

[curik]

Im in whether it can be reflashed back to stock or not. I will just swap the ECU when I want to sell it. Now the question is, how much for a stage 2 reflash? Im not really into spending on exhaust and header.

[aaronng]

Im in whether it can be reflashed back to stock or not. I will just swap the ECU when I want to sell it. Now the question is, how much for a stage 2 reflash? Im not really into spending on exhaust and header.
In addition to the extra ECU, you need the matched immobiliser and the matching set of keys.

[curik]

Damn, so it means we cant sell the ECU?

[aaronng]

Damn, so it means we cant sell the ECU?
You can if you get the keys and immobiliser that were meant to be with it.

Even when you send your ECU to be reflashed, the keys and immobiliser have to be sent out together with it. It's a for security purposes so thieves can't reflash your ECU to override the immobiliser and steal your car. Remember the ferrari in Gone in 60 Seconds?

[curik]

but that means we are swapping all the keys as well? could it be dangerous if they make a backup of their key before and then using it to gain entry to my car?

[aaronng]

but that means we are swapping all the keys as well? could it be dangerous if they make a backup of their key before and then using it to gain entry to my car?
Same risk as when you have your car resprayed, detailed or repaired.

The key has a transponder chip in it, so they would have to duplicate that as well.

[Peekay34]

They match the keys to the ECU so you keep your keys. They also match the imobiliser. The just to have to program the ECU to match.

[yfin]

One of the members here who works at a dealership (who will remain nameless at the moment) said to me a reflash back to stock was "unlikely" and a new ECU would probably be the option put by the dealer.
Just got a PM from the member saying he has confirmation. He spoke to the Honda techs who said it cannot be returned back to stock by a dealership. A new ECU will have to be issued.

Hmmm, I guess I could sell the reflashed ECU to someone who doesn't have the flash? ie perform a complete ECU swap? Not ideal but that is an option I guess.

[curik]

sell the reflashed ECU? but you said u cannot swap the ECU alone? ie u need immobiliser and the key?

[yfin]

sell the reflashed ECU? but you said u cannot swap the ECU alone? ie u need immobiliser and the key?
I don't think I said that but it sounds correct - you would need to swap the ECU, keys and immobilser with someone with a stock Euro. Not really a huge problem but I was more looking for an option that doesn't rely on demand for the reflash.

[curik]

swapping the key? I've never used the immobiliser before, is that thing located near the boot opening latch where you can stick your carkey in? is it really that important?

[yfin]

swapping the key? I've never used the immobiliser before, is that thing located near the boot opening latch where you can stick your carkey in? is it really that important?
What do you mean is it important? If you want your car to start it is necessary. A relatively easy return to stock option may not be important to you - but think about how easy it is to sell or trade in a car with modified i/h/e and ecu. Especially a car like the Euro which is not an all out sports car that is typically modified - eg STI. I also want some protection if the guys at Hondata make a mistake in terms of long term reliability - regardless of what they say I seriously doubt they have the R&D to subject the car to long term factory like testing (eg extreme heat and stress testing). I mean look at the 2006 TSX - they beefed up the power a small amount and in doing so strengthened the internals. We are upping the power even more with no change to internals.

By saying all this I am not dissing what Hondata have done - it sounds freaking awesome and I want it. I just want to keep all the options open for an 'easy' return to stock.

[Chris_F]

What do you mean is it important? If you want your car to start it is necessary. A relatively easy return to stock option may not be important to you - but think about how easy it is to sell or trade in a car with modified i/h/e and ecu. Especially a car like the Euro which is not an all out sports car that is typically modified - eg STI. I also want some protection if the guys at Hondata make a mistake in terms of long term reliability - regardless of what they say I seriously doubt they have the R&D to subject the car to long term factory like testing (eg extreme heat and stress testing). I mean look at the 2006 TSX - they beefed up the power a small amount and in doing so strengthened the internals. We are upping the power even more with no change to internals.

By saying all this I am not dissing what Hondata have done - it sounds freaking awesome and I want it. I just want to keep all the options open for an 'easy' return to stock.

definitely a good point, and something everyone should consider before modding something as crucial as the ecu