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View Full Version : Subframe/swaybar 101 EK/EM/EJ



BlitZ
22-02-2006, 03:52 PM
Time to clear fact from fiction
I've decided to create a new thread explaining the differences in subframes and the reason why we need reinforcements in EK's(NON CTR)... NOTE not EG/DC..


the below is only a guild.. you do what you like as its your car. i know of cars that never ran reinforcements and were fine

Fact 1: everyone knows you cannot use a 22mm rear sway bar without reinforcements.

It would either: - tear the S#@T out of your subframe

- Pluck the bolt holes out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/civic168/e3042425.jpg



Review:

Whiteline :

pro's- 3 mount (no plucking)

con's - places the swaybar d bracket further out giving it leverage to tear you subframe; no linking b/w reinforcements (tie bar provides no twist torsion which is what is needed most).. LOOK AT WHERE THE SWAY BAR MOUNTS TO THE REINFORCEMENT...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/i_a_n_/DSCN2139.jpg


Beaks :

Pro's - use larger sway bar; keeps oringal mounting width (less leverage for twist);

con's - no linking b/w reinforcements (tie bar provides no twist torsion which is what is needed most);

ASR :

pro's - keeps original mounting width (less leverage for twist); connecting plate for torsion twist purposes....
YOU SEE HOW THE MOUNTING HOLES ARE ALIGNED AND NOT PLACED ON THE OUTTER SIDE

http://home.comcast.net/~patcourt/forums/asrafter.jpg

ekslut
22-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Nice post 'BlitZ', I'll add this to the 'Frequently Asked Questions' sticky up the top.

+1 rep point for you :thumbsup:

LowEk
22-02-2006, 06:12 PM
already got a ASR brace for my ek coming in the post. if you wanna know where to get the ASR braces for any honda pm me.

steve
22-02-2006, 07:13 PM
already got a ASR brace for my ek coming in the post. if you wanna know where to get the ASR braces for any honda pm me.

Can you run these asr braces with the whiteline setup?

LowEk
22-02-2006, 07:52 PM
yes thats what im going to do. im going to run a 22mm whiteline rear bar. ill let you know how i go with mine when i fit should be fitting it in the next few weeks.

Zdster
22-02-2006, 08:03 PM
Whiteline :

pro's- 3 mount (no plucking)

con's - places the swaybar d bracket further out giving it leverage to tear you subframe


While I understand what you are saying, I am not sure that 100% agree. The bolts that run through the subframe are supported by spacers so they will not move. The only way that I could see leverage being created is if the bolts that hold the d bracket in place were actually to 'dig' into the lca providing movement for the bracket and bar to move backwards and forwards/ up and down.

When you say the tie bars provide no "twist torsion" can you explain a bit more by what you mean?

Paul1985
22-02-2006, 08:14 PM
ASR is the shit :thumbsup:
i got mine sitting in my room waiting for an install.
Its very sturdy and if you look at pics of it compared to beaks/BSQ, you can really see the difference. The difference in price between the two is about $200 though.

nice write-up Blitz, theres often questions on sway bar upgrades.
The 3 main suppliers of reinforcement that i can think of are beaks, BSQ and ASR, heres the sites for all three so you guys that are interested can read up more info on it, also honda-tech has stacks of info on this topic if you wanna search it.

ASR - http://www.a-spec-racing.com/
Beaks - http://beaksproducts.com/
BSQ - http://www.geocities.com/bretq/mounting_kit.html and http://www.geocities.com/bretq/swaybar_install.html

I hope this info helps with the thread. Also, i think the reason the ASR is much better is because it is larger and longer. This allows the force to be spread across a larger distance, reducing risk of damage. I'm not 100% on this though so dont quote me on it :D

tRipitaka
22-02-2006, 08:17 PM
where would you buy ASR stuff ?

LowEk
22-02-2006, 08:32 PM
pm sent trip.

Paul1985
22-02-2006, 08:33 PM
From the USA.
LowEK has got it i see :D
I purchased it from the same place.
People can PM me also if they need to know where to get it from.

LowEk
22-02-2006, 08:39 PM
yep yep what he said. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Zdster
22-02-2006, 08:40 PM
Has anyone actually fitted the ASR reinforcement with the whiteline sway/tie bar combo? Just curious if it all actually fits???

Do you just remove the spacers that sit between the bar and the lca or do you keep the spacers?

LowEk
22-02-2006, 08:43 PM
keep the spacers there is no point of having a tie bar too as the brace acts like a tie bar it will do with the brace and a swaybar.

Torment
22-02-2006, 09:22 PM
good info and very nice write up! :thumbsup:

chameleon
22-02-2006, 10:47 PM
yes thats what im going to do. im going to run a 22mm whiteline rear bar. ill let you know how i go with mine when i fit should be fitting it in the next few weeks.

please do as im very interested. i currently have a whiteline 22mm swaybar, but it is on the softer setting as im scared of tearing my subframe.

thanks

CTR Coupe
23-02-2006, 11:25 AM
So you would ditch the White line heavy duty mounts and use the sway bar shackles straight onto the ASR brace? I see one problem with that, it would put the bar out of alignment because the HD mounts sit about 27mm off of the sub frame(and the big white line bars are designed to use those mounts). Wouldn’t this change the dynamics of the bar twisting?
I’m no suspension expert just an issue I could see a problem with.

BlitZ
23-02-2006, 11:42 AM
So you would ditch the White line heavy duty mounts and use the sway bar shackles straight onto the ASR brace? I see one problem with that, it would put the bar out of alignment because the HD mounts sit about 27mm off of the sub frame(and the big white line bars are designed to use those mounts). Wouldn’t this change the dynamics of the bar twisting?
I’m no suspension expert just an issue I could see a problem with.

the ASR kit is designed to sit about 27mm off the subframe too..

and the shackles can't be reused you would need ITR D brackets and Bushings.

CTR Coupe
23-02-2006, 12:42 PM
So the ASR kit comes with spacers because the The bracket doesnt look 27mm thick. why do you need to use the ITR brackets?

BlitZ
23-02-2006, 02:08 PM
So the ASR kit comes with spacers because the The bracket doesnt look 27mm thick. why do you need to use the ITR brackets?



... See in the pic u see the spacers-- dont they look about 27mm thick..


The D bracket needs to be bolted down. and not shackled on... The width for the bolt holes for the D brackets were designed for the ITR D bracket. Unless u have an after market sway bar from an ITR with ITR Dbrackets or equivalent length apart (bolt hole) d brackets then u need new ones... ...

If you have whiteline ones you need to put you shackles away unless you're going to a rave:thumbsup:


http://www.a-spec-racing.com/data/product1_detail.jpg

CTR Coupe
23-02-2006, 02:13 PM
You should have really have look at the ASR website and analyse the kit

... See in the pic u see the spacers..


The D bracket needs to be bolted down. and not shackled on... The width for the bolt holes for the D brackets were designed for the ITR D bracket. Unless u have an after market sway bar from an ITR or or equivalent length apart (bolt hole) then u need new d brackets... ...

If you have whiteline ones you need to put you shackles away unless your going to a rave:thumbsup:
*pic clipped*


thanks for that i hadn't seen that pic before all ive ever seen is the big hunk of metal.
more PQ points for you +1

LowEk
23-02-2006, 04:30 PM
look in the next few weeks ill do mine and do a write up on fitting it with the whiteline rear sway 22mm.

suprfast
25-02-2006, 03:15 AM
From the USA.
LowEK has got it i see :D
I purchased it from the same place.
People can PM me also if they need to know where to get it from.
And where might that be :wave:
Whats up paul, hey lowek. I see that both of you have sent a few my way looking for the ASR brace. Thanks a bunch. Nice forum you guys have here. new shipment of EG and EK are coming in for the braces.
Kris

LowEk
25-02-2006, 06:57 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^Yep Yep.

Muzz
25-02-2006, 11:21 AM
hey im ordering a swaybay this weekend and ive got a few quick noobie questions i need some help with. ive been reading bout subframe bracing and have decided on the asr brace. I have a 99 civick hatch with no front or rear swaybars. im getting a 24mm whiteline item up front cus thats all they offer for the civics with no sway bar, but at the back im not to shur what i need/want. so far my choises are a whiteline 22mm blade adj. bar, a 20mm blade adj. bar, or from a-spec racing, get the subframe brace and an integra type r 22mm non adj bar together as a kit, which works out bout $80 cheaper, which im leaning towards.
can anyone say if 24 at the front and 22 at the rear would be a good combo? i want to garage my civic and to build it up as a fun weekend track car when i get my next car. Also as im getting each bar seperatly, which one do you recomend is installed first front or rear. Do you guys think i should pay the extra $80+extra shipping to get an adjustable item from whiteline, or just stick with a 22mm integra type r bar.

suprfast
25-02-2006, 12:41 PM
hey im ordering a swaybay this weekend and ive got a few quick noobie questions i need some help with. ive been reading bout subframe bracing and have decided on the asr brace. I have a 99 civick hatch with no front or rear swaybars. im getting a 24mm whiteline item up front cus thats all they offer for the civics with no sway bar, but at the back im not to shur what i need/want. so far my choises are a whiteline 22mm blade adj. bar, a 20mm blade adj. bar, or from a-spec racing, get the subframe brace and an integra type r 22mm non adj bar together as a kit, which works out bout $80 cheaper, which im leaning towards.
can anyone say if 24 at the front and 22 at the rear would be a good combo? i want to garage my civic and to build it up as a fun weekend track car when i get my next car. Also as im getting each bar seperatly, which one do you recomend is installed first front or rear. Do you guys think i should pay the extra $80+extra shipping to get an adjustable item from whiteline, or just stick with a 22mm integra type r bar.

Id go with the ITR ASR Brace Combo. Not only can you get it from the same place that lowek and paul1985 did, but its been proven time and again with sway bars up to 32mm. The ASR kit is top notch. Dont risk your rear subframe on your car for anything else. I run one on my car, and will be going with the 32mm sway bar soon.
BTW, a 24mm front seems to be a tad large. I dont think there is any reason why you can not just get the stock sway bar from any other civic.
Now for your track usage, the 24mm will balance it out a lot. Depending on your spring rates i think you might be leaning towards the side of understeer. I personally like Oversteer as i find it easier to control. Lets hear some more about your setup and i can see if the 24mm bar would be a tad much in the front.
Kris

Muzz
25-02-2006, 01:29 PM
^cheers mate^ Helps alot

So far im still on complete stock suspension, swaybars is my 1st upgrade, next im looking for a good set of coilovers, and a whiteline camber and caster kit. i was hoping to be slightly more balanced toward oversteer. Any thoughts would be helpful. maby recomendations on spring rates. ill have a search around and see if i can find somthing a bit thinner for the front.

Muzz
25-02-2006, 01:49 PM
is there any prob handling wise putting my rear bar in 1st, prob bout 2 weeks before i get the 2nd bar. is there any negative efects by balancing out the possible slight understeer tendency by adjusing spring stiffness between front and rear to suit.

suprfast
25-02-2006, 02:53 PM
is there any prob handling wise putting my rear bar in 1st, prob bout 2 weeks before i get the 2nd bar. is there any negative efects by balancing out the possible slight understeer tendency by adjusing spring stiffness between front and rear to suit.

Spring stiffness can and will have an impact on how the car wants to swing. Also, not running a front sway bar is not a bad thing. Try just the rear and see how you like it. I have dont a lot of autoX without the front sway bar and it really helps the rear end come loose easier. I would suggest(im biased) a koni yellow setup mated to a set of Ground Control coilovers with a 400/500 spring rate. It keeps it slightly balanced but also gives it the edge closer to oversteer. If you want to even it out a little more try 450/400. That setup is popular too. Keep it coming, i love suspension
Kris

LowEk
25-02-2006, 03:41 PM
^^^^^yeh try that. suprfast is a sussy Whor3. hahaha

Muzz
26-02-2006, 01:49 PM
is a-spec racing based i australia, and is that price AU. they got no details of address.

LowEk
26-02-2006, 02:05 PM
they are in the US man.

Torment
26-02-2006, 03:25 PM
better to confirm this, are EK9 and DC2-R rear ARBs the same? will both work with the ASR brace?

bennjamin
26-02-2006, 04:27 PM
better to confirm this, are EK9 and DC2-R rear ARBs the same? will both work with the ASR brace?

No.

DC/Eg are different mounting points/hole locations than EK/EM civics.

suprfast
26-02-2006, 05:27 PM
No.

DC/Eg are different mounting points/hole locations than EK/EM civics.

Also the ITR can not use the ASR brace

BlitZ
26-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Lets clear some things up..

ASR makes a kit for the EG/DC and a separate kit for the EK/EM...

Type r do not require reinforcing so no kits are required/or made for.

Bludger
27-02-2006, 01:22 AM
WHY CAN'T THE TYPE r USE THE ASR BRACE?

Torment
27-02-2006, 01:35 AM
No.

DC/Eg are different mounting points/hole locations than EK/EM civics.

yes i understand the rear subframe is different between DC/EG and EK/EM, and also type-Rs and normal civics bennjamin, what i'm trying to get straight is wether the ARBs itself are the same, i have been told that the 22mm bar from the EK9 and pre-98spec DC2-R uses the same D-bush and bracket whereas the post-98spec JDM DC2-R's 23mm bar use a different D-bush but the same D-bracket as the 22mm bars. :confused:

suprfast
27-02-2006, 05:14 AM
WHY CAN'T THE TYPE r USE THE ASR BRACE?
I just dont think it will bolt up since they have different size rear points. The ITR is beefy enough that it doesnt need one. As for the rest, id highly recomend it.
Above question, yes you have it down correctly. Only kits available
kris

bennjamin
27-02-2006, 09:54 AM
yes i understand the rear subframe is different between DC/EG and EK/EM, and also type-Rs and normal civics bennjamin, what i'm trying to get straight is wether the ARBs itself are the same, i have been told that the 22mm bar from the EK9 and pre-98spec DC2-R uses the same D-bush and bracket whereas the post-98spec JDM DC2-R's 23mm bar use a different D-bush but the same D-bracket as the 22mm bars. :confused:

ive been lead to believe the U clip and D bush you speak of are eactly the same irrelevant to swaybar - its the sie which determines the D bush inner size (22 or 23mm for example) - the outer U bracket + 2 x bolts are the same EK or DC

Torment
27-02-2006, 04:20 PM
so i guess both will fit the ASR brace then. thanks benn! :thumbsup: hmmm...how bout the ends then are they the same? the part that goes over the LCA...


suprfast you have PM over at the other forum. ;)

joneblaze
27-02-2006, 05:26 PM
Nice writeup Daniel.

Good to see you sharing experience with these other dudes. :)

Paul1985
27-02-2006, 08:41 PM
Welcome to OH Kris :D
This kit is becoming very popular.

BlitZ
27-02-2006, 11:53 PM
Nice writeup Daniel.

Good to see you sharing experience with these other dudes. :)

Thanks Jon... I simply got the shits reading alot of BS about reinforcements and swaybars one day and decided to write this thread.... There is alot of people who dont knoww hat they are doing.. eg. like the guy wanting reinforcements for his ITR...:confused:....and people thinking whiteline is the best swaybar on the market.

gelo
28-02-2006, 09:12 AM
for those who is interested in gettign a ASR reinforcement kit
give me an email on homey_bananas@hotmail.com
im trying to organise something to save on shipping and maybe price off the actual item too
i need to know numbers

nobbs
28-02-2006, 09:30 AM
nice write up daniel...i have only recently heard of this happening to subframes and was curious to find out more information about it

whats the approximate price of the asr kit for an em1?

gelo
01-03-2006, 06:09 PM
i thought quite a few people wanted to get the ASR brace
how come no one is contacting me

LowEk
01-03-2006, 06:25 PM
already got them all covered gelo they know who to see.

gelo
01-03-2006, 07:50 PM
hey lowek are u paul?

LowEk
01-03-2006, 07:58 PM
no Paul1985 would be Paul.

Paul1985
01-03-2006, 08:39 PM
im Paul :D
i think mine ended up costing around $300AUD +/- all up delivered to my door.. i cant remember exactly.

Kris (suprfast) is a great guy and has the best customer service going around! i can vouch for him if some of you guys are a bit worried about purchasing from overseas and are considering buying an ASR brace off him.. im sure others would also vouch for him.

LowEk
01-03-2006, 08:43 PM
i Vouch for him 100%.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Muzz
01-03-2006, 10:40 PM
i thought quite a few people wanted to get the ASR brace
how come no one is contacting me

i would, but where is it gunna be posted to? ur in syd im on gold coast. needs to be a GOOD saving to be worth the extra effort of splitting the order, then posting whats not yours onwards, if i saved say $30 i would loose it in getting it posted up here once it had landed at urs, plus the extra travel time, greater risk of it getting lost

and sorry its just i dont kno you and i dont have enough money to trust it, or my products in the hands of strangers. if we could buy as a group and get items sent to individual addresses i would be interested PM me.

Muzz
01-03-2006, 10:48 PM
I cant work out how to send a PM to kris, im a serious noob, can any1 help?
Kris if you read this i wanna get a brace ASAP, and dont kno how, n where to make my purchace. HELP MEEEEE

LowEk
02-03-2006, 06:06 AM
click on his name in this post and a lil box will come up then click on send a pm then write what you want then click send at the bottom of that page.

LowEk
15-03-2006, 04:20 PM
i just recived my ASR brace yesterday so ill do a write up in the next week or so when i fit it.

suprfast
15-03-2006, 04:27 PM
awesome, let me know how it works out for you.
Kris

Zdster
15-03-2006, 04:31 PM
i just recived my ASR brace yesterday so ill do a write up in the next week or so when i fit it.

I am looking forward to see how this goes with the whiteline sway :thumbsup:.

LowEk
15-03-2006, 04:34 PM
cant resist here is a pic.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/MPR55/DSC01024.jpg

BlitZ
15-03-2006, 09:11 PM
looking good.. would look even better once its installed alot of bling!

hey arent u missing 2 pieces?



cant resist here is a pic.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/MPR55/DSC01024.jpg

Muzz
15-03-2006, 11:03 PM
nar i got mine of kris the other day (highly recomended) and those 2 bits didnt come in mine either, i think maby the photo on his site is the kit that comes with the itr bar. Have u got your whitline bar yet low ek?, With the 22mm adjustable bar that iv got, the d bush brackets cant go straight on to the asr brace cus u cant screw on the backing plates.

im gunna use the mounts that came with the swaybar kit, and remove the tubular sections (cut through the smat tack welds, and grind flat) so its just a flat plate of high tensile steel. it should then bolt straight on to the face of the brace easily. Will the swybar be affected in any way by moving it rearward 3-4mm

LowEk
16-03-2006, 06:07 AM
thats the whole kit for a EK there are 2 other parts but they are on the back of the brace. i have not got the rear sway yet but will prolly get it in the next week or so.

BlitZ
16-03-2006, 08:38 AM
nar i got mine of kris the other day (highly recomended) and those 2 bits didnt come in mine either, i think maby the photo on his site is the kit that comes with the itr bar. Have u got your whitline bar yet low ek?, With the 22mm adjustable bar that iv got, the d bush brackets cant go straight on to the asr brace cus u cant screw on the backing plates.

im gunna use the mounts that came with the swaybar kit, and remove the tubular sections (cut through the smat tack welds, and grind flat) so its just a flat plate of high tensile steel. it should then bolt straight on to the face of the brace easily. Will the swybar be affected in any way by moving it rearward 3-4mm

i dont know what u mean but if intend to move the brace rearwards you might have problems...



as the arms might overhang too far back pass the control arm

BlitZ
16-03-2006, 08:39 AM
thats the whole kit for a EK there are 2 other parts but they are on the back of the brace. i have not got the rear sway yet but will prolly get it in the next week or so.

but the 2 side backin plates look to be normally separate to the plate.. unless now they weld it on? wait till u get it... should be ok

LowEk
16-03-2006, 12:28 PM
nah they are not welded on they are just sorta pressed on i think they are locating dowls.

THE_MASS
17-03-2006, 08:38 AM
this may sound really stupid...
but, do these kit need to be installed for dc2's if rear sways have been upgraded?
or is this just for civics?

BlitZ
17-03-2006, 08:42 AM
this may sound really stupid...
but, do these kit need to be installed for dc2's if rear sways have been upgraded?
or is this just for civics?

you can porbably get away with a whiteline kit.. but u do require reinforcemetns else you would get the bolt hole plucked out

LowEk
17-03-2006, 01:08 PM
you can get a asr brace fir almost any car just not ITR.

Muzz
17-03-2006, 06:47 PM
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1766.jpg
Mounting bracket for whiteline kit, and with tubes removed^^^^

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1768.jpg

This is the only way i can see to mount the whiteline bar to the asr brace, as the bar has slight bends in it where the d bracket and bushing would go when using the normal mounting holes on the asr brace( look at 2nd photo). i cant think of anyother way. As you can see, the bar will be about 3mm rearward of its origional spot, this wont have and negative impact will it?

LowEk
17-03-2006, 08:49 PM
hmmmmm good question muzz now i see where you coming from with the whiteline swaybar.

Zdster
17-03-2006, 08:50 PM
Hmm. I assume the tubes from the whiteline kit dont just slide into the bolt hole on the asr brace?


I am not sure about moving it backwards, but one issue might be clearances around the lca and exhaust.

LowEk
17-03-2006, 09:03 PM
what does a standard rear sway bar look like does it look sorta the same as the whiteline one??
here is a pic of the the asr brace with i think its a ITR swaybar (this is a the same kit that you can get for the EK) notice it does not have the bends where the whiteline bends are.

http://www.a-spec-racing.com/data/product2_detail.jpg

LowEk
17-03-2006, 09:09 PM
i was just thinking a ITR whiteline bar might be the secret to making it fit without the bracket maybe??

suprfast
18-03-2006, 06:56 AM
i was just thinking a ITR whiteline bar might be the secret to making it fit without the bracket maybe??

Actually, you might be on to something there. Ill forward this to charleston at ASR. It will be a few day wait, but ill keep you updated
kris

LowEk
18-03-2006, 07:08 AM
cheers kris your a champ. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

twing
19-03-2006, 11:43 PM
would 18mm swaybar needs enforcement too?

bennjamin
19-03-2006, 11:51 PM
would 18mm swaybar needs enforcement too?

yes - it should warrant some form of reinforcement , as the car it is going on had either a 14mm or no swaybar at all. IE bigger than stock shouldget some reinfocement for extra insurance.

LowEk
20-03-2006, 01:25 PM
yes - it should warrant some form of reinforcement , as the car it is going on had either a 14mm or no swaybar at all. IE bigger than stock shouldget some reinfocement for extra insurance.


^^^^^^what he said. thats why i got a subframe brace for better than trying to fix your ripped out subframe.

bennjamin
20-03-2006, 01:32 PM
just to add -

has anyone tried any say ITR swaybar on a say whiteline reinforcement ?
Im looking at using a proper ITR rear swaybar on my EG and since i already have the whitelien kit...wondering if anyone has tried this combo ?

Otherwise ill have a poke aroudn once i get the stuff and let yall know :)

BlitZ
20-03-2006, 01:35 PM
True that would work..
But now your killing the ASR kit..
You are moving the D bracket mount outwards.. allowing mroe tension on the subframe ears...

this would weakin the integrity of the kit...

the ASR kit is a combination of beaks + plate

you just removed the beaks component



http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1766.jpg
Mounting bracket for whiteline kit, and with tubes removed^^^^

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1768.jpg

This is the only way i can see to mount the whiteline bar to the asr brace, as the bar has slight bends in it where the d bracket and bushing would go when using the normal mounting holes on the asr brace( look at 2nd photo). i cant think of anyother way. As you can see, the bar will be about 3mm rearward of its origional spot, this wont have and negative impact will it?

Muzz
21-03-2006, 12:00 AM
True that would work..
But now your killing the ASR kit..
You are moving the D bracket mount outwards.. allowing mroe tension on the subframe ears...


picture JUST a bar mounted on the asr brace. you would agree that during cornering one bracket has a force applied upwards while the other has a force downwards, resulting in a torsional force applied on the asr brace.

The brace, d brackets, and the section of the bar between the brackets would be considered a solid structure.

Using the whiteline mounts will indeed move the brackets outwards, but the brace, d brackets, and the section of the bar between the brackets would still be considered a solid structure as before.

Weather or not the forces are greater, the asr brace will still be experiancing the tortional forces in the exact same manner. Using the whiteline mounts wont make the asr brace pointless, its working in the exact same way. Look at the pic above and tell me how the brace will work differently or not work.

Now, i dont believe the torsional force on the asr brace would change either.

|---------a|||||||0|||||||a---------| With brackets further out.....1

|------------a||||0||||a------------| With brackets at frame bolts..2

..................|<---0--->|......... <-points where asr brace bolts to frame for both diagrams

a = point of d bracket

this is a diagram of the bar and brace with and without extra mounts, point 0 is the point that the brace that experiances a tortional force around.
Say both are experiancing a 100kn force upward at the end of the bar 1m from the point of pivot, you can use the equation f1xd1 = f2xd2 where f is force and d is distance from point of pivot.

fxd=f1xd1
100kn x 1m = f1 x 0.75m (say the bracket for 1 is d1=0.75m from centre)
100 = f1 x 0.75m
f2 = 100/.75
f2 = 133.333kn

fxd=f2xd2
100kn x 1m = f2 x 0.65m (say the bracket for 2 is d2=0.65m from centre)
100 = f2 x 0.65m
f2 = 100/.65
f2 = 153.84kn
BTW i pulled the 1m, 0.75m, 0.65m values out of the air.
simple law of leverage- closer to point of pivot = greater force

so actually, as you can see the bracket would experiance a greater force being closer to the centre.

The thing is tho no matter how far in/out the d brackets are from centre, the bolts going through the asr brace to the frame, arnt changing in distance from the center of the brace, weather the whitleline mounts are used or somhow not. meaning that the frame is being twisted with the same amount of force either way.

im not pulling this out of my ass, im studing to be a mechanical engineer, this is how i see it. please anyone correct me if im wrong.

Muzz
21-03-2006, 12:30 AM
True that would work..
You are moving the D bracket mount outwards.. allowing mroe tension on the subframe ears...

this would weakin the integrity of the kit...


in effect what i am doing, would be the same as using the regular asr kit, with a slightly longer plate with the d bracket mounts out further. i fail to see how this changes the integrity anywhere in the brace, frame or bolts.

with the brace its tons harder to dammage the subframe cus its gotta tear out HUGE chunks of the frame insted of just plucking holes. This fact dosnt change nomatter how the bar is connected to the brace.

if the frame was to fracture with the whiteline mounts bolted on to the asr kit, it would have done the same without.

Muzz
21-03-2006, 08:55 AM
Im gunnna print this out and ask my lecturers view anyway, just to be on the safe side.

LowEk
21-03-2006, 04:21 PM
the only reason i wanna get the swaybar to line up with the holes in the asr brace and not use the brackets that you have is for a cleaner look. and also as long as it does the job then im happy.

Muzz
22-03-2006, 01:59 PM
yeh id way prefer to just be using the asr brace aswell.

LowEk
22-03-2006, 04:58 PM
give me a few days and ill work it out how to not use the brackets and ill let you all know.

Muzz
22-03-2006, 05:07 PM
whiteline had to make mine up cus the dont keep them in stock, maby theres a small chance they can do a one off so its just straight without those two small bends??

BlitZ
22-03-2006, 08:19 PM
whiteline had to make mine up cus the dont keep them in stock, maby theres a small chance they can do a one off so its just straight without those two small bends??

have u boys tried comparing the whiteline integra bar?

LowEk
22-03-2006, 08:54 PM
thats my idea already but i dont know what a integra swaybar looks like here is a pic of the asr brace with a ITR swaybar that you can buy but i did not buy it that way. the swaybar and the endlinks need to look the same can anyone with a teg please have a look to see if they are the same.

http://www.a-spec-racing.com/data/product2_detail.jpg

LowEk
23-03-2006, 12:33 PM
dont ring whiteline waste of time trying to explain what i want im just going to go ahead and buy the parts i need ill let you all know how i go with it.

BlitZ
23-03-2006, 01:25 PM
the end links featured are ek4 endlinks.

LowEk
23-03-2006, 04:21 PM
yeh i figured that one out i had a look at the honda EPC they are not cheap from honda either $152 a peice.

BlitZ
23-03-2006, 08:44 PM
yeah and the ebay ones are almost the same price (shipped).

I am wondering why you are not usng the whiteline ones that come with the kit? they do almost the same job



yeh i figured that one out i had a look at the honda EPC they are not cheap from honda either $152 a peice.

LowEk
23-03-2006, 08:52 PM
not using the whitline ones cos you will need a ITR swaybar with EK4 endlinks and you cannot buy it in a kit form like that from whiteline so you will need to use the standard ek4 endlinks.

BlitZ
23-03-2006, 08:53 PM
the question you should ask yourself is....
"does the whiteline Teg sway bar mount where the ITR swaybar mount ?" And there are enouhg pictures to draw a good conclusion



thats my idea already but i dont know what a integra swaybar looks like here is a pic of the asr brace with a ITR swaybar that you can buy but i did not buy it that way. the swaybar and the endlinks need to look the same can anyone with a teg please have a look to see if they are the same.

http://www.a-spec-racing.com/data/product2_detail.jpg

LowEk
23-03-2006, 09:12 PM
the question you should ask yourself is....
"does the whiteline Teg sway bar mount where the ITR swaybar mount ?" And there are enouhg pictures to draw a good conclusion


^^^^^^this is the exact same thing that the whiteline guy was asking and im not sure he could not even tell me if the whiteline swaybar looked the same as this one in the pic :thumbdwn: but i would it have to cos i would say that the "D" brackets mount on the straight part on the inside. im just going to go ahead and do it ill let you know how i go when i get all the parts i need.

Muzz
24-03-2006, 05:57 PM
there is the option of getting an engineering place or yourself and drilling holes for the whiteline d brackets say 2" inward on the asr brace, and mounting the brackets on the inside of the two small bends. but ud need to check clearances of the bolts on the rear.

Muzz
24-03-2006, 06:03 PM
nar that woulnt work, it brings the bar to far forward where parts of it'll rub on the brace. could maby be done with 4-5mm plates between brackets and brace to move the bar back out.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1799.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1794.jpg

doin this will put more force on the d brackets as they are closer to the torque centre of the swaybar tho. It wont change the force on the subframe nor will having them further out as i have confirmed.

LowEk
24-03-2006, 07:07 PM
yeh that wont work cos you need to use a ITR bar. ill let you know when i do it. i have it already worked out in my head i just have to get the parts and do it.

Muzz
24-03-2006, 07:43 PM
sweet

BlitZ
26-03-2006, 10:14 AM
just sell the whiteline bar back out for 160 and buy an itr bar for 120 and use the extra cas on somthing else

kayot1k
28-05-2006, 04:12 PM
any updates fellas?... getting interested in this topic as i also plan on a similar upgrade.

LowEk
28-05-2006, 05:52 PM
i have not fitted my brace yet as im selling my car im not going to fit it so im selling my brace just pm if anyone is intrested. i have figured out the brace and swaybar prob thou to fix the problem above you will need a DC2R swaybar with EK4 swaybar endlinks and D brackets and bushes and this should all bolt up and fix the above problem.

barefootbonzai
30-05-2006, 12:41 PM
I got the ASR reinforcements on my EK with CTR rear sway bar, fits perfect. Both CTR and ITR bars will work very well.

BlitZ
02-06-2006, 11:27 AM
does anyone know if i can buy the rings that go onto the ITR/CTR sway bar for EK endlink install?

i jsut mashed the busshing abit... i want to remove the bushing there and install it solid like how it is suppose to be


I want to buy this... dont know where.. or even make it

http://a-spec-racing.com/data/product2_detail_2.jpg

LowEk
02-06-2006, 07:25 PM
they look like the same spacers that come with the subframe brace i wondered what they were for now i know sorry im not going to sell them out of my kit. try a machine shop or a nut and bolt shop maybe.

BlitZ
04-06-2006, 11:59 AM
hey barfootbonzai.. heheeh

you arent using yours are u? as i think the CTR sway doesnt require the the special washers hahah... caring to sell them for a mint...

DomenEK
05-06-2006, 12:16 PM
Guys, just curious, and a little confused - what does the ASR subframce brace do that the Whiteline rear lower tie bar doesn't?

It's just that from the pics of the whiteline sway bar/tie bar combo on the first page, and pics of the ASR brace on subsequent pages, they appear to do the same/similar job?

I'm looking at purchasing the whiteline 22m adjustable rear sway and lower tie combo for my EK1 sedan, but I wanna do my research first and make sure I'm not going to tear my subframe apart....BTW, my car came standard without a rear swaybar.

suprfast
05-06-2006, 12:27 PM
Guys, just curious, and a little confused - what does the ASR subframce brace do that the Whiteline rear lower tie bar doesn't?

It's just that from the pics of the whiteline sway bar/tie bar combo on the first page, and pics of the ASR brace on subsequent pages, they appear to do the same/similar job?

I'm looking at purchasing the whiteline 22m adjustable rear sway and lower tie combo for my EK1 sedan, but I wanna do my research first and make sure I'm not going to tear my subframe apart....BTW, my car came standard without a rear swaybar.
Well if i were you i would go with what has been proven time and again(ASR). The whiteline looks just like the Comptech unit and it appearance seems to show an inferior product to the ASR, but a superior product to nothing. The ASR will put the force over a larger portion. The ASR brace is also made to be used with many aftermarket as well as OEM pieces and also has the option for the big 32mm RACE bar.


*bennjamin edit Keep it to PM thanks*

DomenEK
05-06-2006, 01:50 PM
Well if i were you i would go with what has been proven time and again(ASR). The whiteline looks just like the Comptech unit and it appearance seems to show an inferior product to the ASR, but a superior product to nothing. The ASR will put the force over a larger portion. The ASR brace is also made to be used with many aftermarket as well as OEM pieces and also has the option for the big 32mm RACE bar. PM me if you want a price on the ASR bar. Im a dealer for them here in the states and have a large qty of them. Ask around, im a stand up guy.
Kris
So I keep hearing:thumbsup:!

I'll shoot you a pm shortly.

Zdster
05-06-2006, 02:02 PM
Stops this from happening :eek:

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/2135/noasr16em.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

barefootbonzai
05-06-2006, 02:13 PM
hey barfootbonzai.. heheeh

you arent using yours are u? as i think the CTR sway doesnt require the the special washers hahah... caring to sell them for a mint...

I was gonna PM you about them, but i used 2 as washers hahaha. PM me if you're really desperate and i guess i could take them out for you. Make it worth my while :p

DomenEK
05-06-2006, 03:33 PM
Guys, another quick Q:

How does the ASR Brace/ITR rear sway bar kit compare with the whiteline kit?

So many options out there. I'm definately going for th ASR brace, but just want to clarify which swaybar would be better, the whiteline 22mm adjustable, or the ITR sway that comes as a kit with the ASR brace...

Zdster
05-06-2006, 03:44 PM
Guys, another quick Q:

How does the ASR Brace/ITR rear sway bar kit compare with the whiteline kit?

So many options out there. I'm definately going for th ASR brace, but just want to clarify which swaybar would be better, the whiteline 22mm adjustable, or the ITR sway that comes as a kit with the ASR brace...

I would go with the itr or ctr bar, as you potentially have problems with the whiteline bar fitting. The issue is that there is a bend in the whiteline bar where it meets the brace and without modifying something (and potentially loosing the strength of the brace) you may not get it to fit.

BlitZ
05-06-2006, 04:08 PM
Well if i were you i would go with what has been proven time and again(ASR). The whiteline looks just like the Comptech unit and it appearance seems to show an inferior product to the ASR, but a superior product to nothing. The ASR will put the force over a larger portion. The ASR brace is also made to be used with many aftermarket as well as OEM pieces and also has the option for the big 32mm RACE bar. PM me if you want a price on the ASR bar. Im a dealer for them here in the states and have a large qty of them. Ask around, im a stand up guy.
Kris

... the comptech unit will work as well as the ASR one.... which is far superior to the whiteline one

the comptech and ASR ktis both offer solid connections and placed the moutning holes close then the whiteline one..

DomenEK
05-06-2006, 04:20 PM
I would go with the itr or ctr bar, as you potentially have problems with the whiteline bar fitting. The issue is that there is a bend in the whiteline bar where it meets the brace and without modifying something (and potentially loosing the strength of the brace) you may not get it to fit.

Ok, cool.

If the ASR brace/ITR swaybar kit is adjustable (i.e. the swaybar is adjustable [comes with adjustable end links?]), then I will opt for this (Kris [suprfast]is getting back to me on this).

BlitZ
05-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Ok, cool.

If the ASR brace/ITR swaybar kit is adjustable (i.e. the swaybar is adjustable [comes with adjustable end links?]), then I will opt for this (Kris [suprfast]is getting back to me on this).

adjustable end links? u mean the extra holes at the end of the sway bar (like the whiteline one)?

adjustability isnt good... it causes the arms to not sit directly vertical...... whiteline recommends stacking the washer out the back of the control arms so the arms sit upright.. heheeh

Muzz
05-06-2006, 05:38 PM
Guys, another quick Q:

How does the ASR Brace/ITR rear sway bar kit compare with the whiteline kit?

So many options out there. I'm definately going for th ASR brace, but just want to clarify which swaybar would be better, the whiteline 22mm adjustable, or the ITR sway that comes as a kit with the ASR brace...

i got the Asr brace with the whiteline 22mm adjustable swaybar on my ek 4hatch. I can tell you now that the whiteline bar wont work with the asr brace without modification. this is because where the d brackets and bushings go on the asr brace, there are small bends on the swaybar. the brackets & bushings need to be further out or further in on the swaybay. i cant explain this well but there are pics earlyer on in this thread.

i would try get the asr brace & itr bar combo.:thumbsup:

riruiz_88
10-05-2008, 11:57 AM
ok so sure the ASR leads in bracing, but i was thinking of being different and running all BEAKS products. including: subframe reinforcement kit and lower tie bar. i have heard that you need to drill out larger holes for the reinforcement kit to properly fit, is this true?

89lude
06-06-2008, 11:17 PM
so has any of guys tried doing it this way did it work properly as i got my 22mm sway and asr brace sitting and wanting to install it just want to double check if i should do it that way



http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1766.jpg
Mounting bracket for whiteline kit, and with tubes removed^^^^

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/Muzz87/IMG_1768.jpg

This is the only way i can see to mount the whiteline bar to the asr brace, as the bar has slight bends in it where the d bracket and bushing would go when using the normal mounting holes on the asr brace( look at 2nd photo). i cant think of anyother way. As you can see, the bar will be about 3mm rearward of its origional spot, this wont have and negative impact will it?

929
08-06-2008, 02:34 AM
I am also planning to put in CTR rear sway and researching on information regarding to the "reinforcement". It seems that ASR is the best to go for. wellz, I personally like the Beak's most...it just looks great. lol

The CTR rear sway is about $250 with every thing that i need but the ASR cost somewhere about $250 to $300. Is there any other product that can do the job?

And i also comes with another question, the 22mm swaybar does tear out the subframe so we need to put in something like ASR to make it strong. So what about the CTR itself? Is the subframe from CTR is different from EK4 or EK1 so that we have to put in the ASR?

929
10-06-2008, 05:01 AM
For the new design of the Whiteline kit, it looks a bit like the ASR kit.
Would it means that it is better now and not tearing out the subframe?

bennjamin
10-06-2008, 10:06 AM
For the new design of the Whiteline kit, it looks a bit like the ASR kit.
Would it means that it is better now and not tearing out the subframe?

...NO it is actualyl quite the same as the old kit.

Why ?

Because the actual mounting to the subframe , is exactly the same as the old kit. And there is no "Backing plate" to further spread the load out.

it just looks blingy , IMO expect the same subframe issues in a few months/years time.

string
10-06-2008, 02:37 PM
Are there any cases of the whiteline product tearing a subframe? There's so much negativity in here yet no links to problems? Infact, is there ANY evidence of subframe while using a reinforcement kit which incorporates the LCA bolt. Here's my opinions of the whole swaybar reinforcement idea.

When one wheel is forced into bump, the swaybar will try to pull up and away from the subframe through the D-bracket. Facing the hubs, you have a large vertical force upwards, and a smaller horizontal force away (relative magnitude depending on the location and orientation of the endlink and the relative positions of the swaybar mounting points on the D-bracket and LCA). The other side of the swaybar will see the opposite forces.

With just a D-bracket on the subframe, it's easy to visualise how a large vertical force will create a torque about either the upper or lower bolt depending on which side you are looking at for a given movement. You can test this with your hands - make a solid D-shape with your index finger and thumb and place it on your desk. Put another finger in the D and push on the inside of your index finger to simulate the swaybar.

When the LCA bolt is incorporated it will take the vertical load in it's stride. I guess it all comes down to, how well can the LCA subframe mounting bolt take unintended loads. It is clear that this section will be subjected to high levels of compression and tension through the axis of the axel - how strong is it under vertical compression and tension?

I've have the whiteline kit on my DA for over 2 years now. Until that LCA bolt moves, the rest of it is not budging a nanometre.

Mr_will
10-06-2008, 06:31 PM
i am in the same boat as string. 22mm bar on a da9. i am yet to see tearing. however the day i hear about it from string mine will be coming off quick smart.

further to that, if you look here http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53696 youll see that the bolts going through the subframe are in fact inside the LCA bolt. Doubt there would be any forces from driving on public roads that could pull basically that entire ear off.

Zdster
10-06-2008, 06:51 PM
Are there any cases of the whiteline product tearing a subframe? There's so much negativity in here yet no links to problems? Infact, is there ANY evidence of subframe while using a reinforcement kit which incorporates the LCA bolt.

You really havent done much reading. There are numerous documented cases where the subframe has literally had a whole chunk ripped out of it.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77118&highlight=whiteline+swaybar
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67084&highlight=whiteline+swaybar

The subframes we are talking about here are EK's and EG's.


i am in the same boat as string. 22mm bar on a da9. i am yet to see tearing. however the day i hear about it from string mine will be coming off quick smart.

further to that, if you look here http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53696 youll see that the bolts going through the subframe are in fact inside the LCA bolt. Doubt there would be any forces from driving on public roads that could pull basically that entire ear off.

It is irrelevant that it goes through the LCA. All of them do. You should read up on here and honda-tech about ripped/torn subframes and you will see exactly what the problem is!

Also, by the time that you see tearing/ripping, it is to late anyway.

bennjamin
10-06-2008, 07:00 PM
string i have personally taken 8 whiteline swaybars off EK' with wrecked subframes from the product. I have also taken 2 off DC's for hte same reason. I have heard of multiple instances elsewhere on this forum , and outside too.
Its plain and simple a badly designed and manufactured product. The new kit fails to fix the fundamental problems of it. Whiteline should copy closer to the ASR kit.

Zdster
10-06-2008, 07:16 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/umran/mycarpics-new132.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/JDMB20TDA/IMG_7772.jpg

http://mestiso.net/photogallery/ek/CIMG1511.jpg

string
10-06-2008, 07:42 PM
string i have personally taken 8 whiteline swaybars off EK' with wrecked subframes from the product. I have also taken 2 off DC's for hte same reason. I have heard of multiple instances elsewhere on this forum , and outside too.
Its plain and simple a badly designed and manufactured product. The new kit fails to fix the fundamental problems of it. Whiteline should copy closer to the ASR kit.
I did not realise that there exists a different version to the one myself and mr_will use. We both have square brackets with the D-bracket mounting in line with the LCA bolt, and the attachment bolts on the inside of the LCA bolt. It's very obvious that the design that pushes the D-bracket out to the edge with the LCA bolt on the far opposite corner is terrible - did these only apply to EK/EG? Having the swaybar mounting point on the outside is asking for trouble regardless.

Do you have any photos of tear outs with the rectangular plates? I'd like to see what direction the bolts were pulling - mine is solid as a rock.

bennjamin
10-06-2008, 07:45 PM
I did not realise that there exists a different version to the one myself and mr_will use. We both have square brackets with the D-bracket mounting in line with the LCA bolt, and the attachment bolts on the inside of the LCA bolt. It's very obvious that the design that pushes the D-bracket out to the edge with the LCA bolt on the far opposite corner is possibly the stupidest design i've ever seen - did these only apply to EK?

Do you have any photos of tear outs with the rectangular plates? I'd like to see what direction the bolts were pulling - mine is solid as a rock.

The stupid design you speak of is the EK design. The ED/DC also had a similar design , but with the swaybar mounting itself inline with the reinforcement too. Alittle more reliable but still prone to tear out.
Appears to be a different design to what you And Mr will use.

string
10-06-2008, 07:49 PM
We've got the DC bar, BHR36Z or something like that.

I don't know about Mr_Will but I use the whiteline tie-bar too, preloaded to give a fair bit of tension between the plates.

SiReal
10-06-2008, 08:06 PM
Info here is top stuff :thumbsup:

Wouldn't it be possible to recreate this backing plate which the whiteline kit is missing? Just grab some sheet alum, cut to the right spec and then secure using a nut/bolt system vs a threaded backing plate (like the ASR)?

Zdster
10-06-2008, 08:23 PM
We've got the DC bar, BHR36Z or something like that.

I don't know about Mr_Will but I use the whiteline tie-bar too, preloaded to give a fair bit of tension between the plates.

Do you have a picture of the kit installed? I am curious to see what it looks like.


Info here is top stuff :thumbsup:

Wouldn't it be possible to recreate this backing plate which the whiteline kit is missing? Just grab some sheet alum, cut to the right spec and then secure using a nut/bolt system vs a threaded backing plate (like the ASR)?

It would have to be a pretty thick piece of aluminum (especially after seeing the ASR backing piece).

bennjamin
10-06-2008, 08:25 PM
you COULD fabricate something - but you need to extend the existing U bolt (on the old kit) -

Limbo
10-06-2008, 08:47 PM
i've seen both the new and old kits and they both aren't really good. (on Ek anyway)
ASR is the only real improvement

btw, the guy who did the ASR with the ground off Whiteline old bits, good job. I never thought of doing that, i might mod mine in the same way now.
I think its got an improvement over my setup, i.e new U brackets just bolting onto ASR

BlitZ
11-06-2008, 09:45 AM
U cant modify the whitline one and use the ASR kit.. you are just wrecking it by moving the mounts outwards causing tearing at the ears.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not giving myself a free plug..

I made a custom kit myself and its way better than whiteline..

Its actually up for sale for $300 with ITR sway bar and everything

The reason why mine is better than whitline is that it super imposing the holes bring them ontop and not off the side .

I've tracked the crap out of it and my subframe is perfect ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/civic168/DSCF3896.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/civic168/IMG_4513.jpg

bennjamin
11-06-2008, 11:40 AM
DIY is better than whiteline....lol. Shows the amount of design thought put into the whiteline kit.

BTW i would avoid using the whiteline mounting shaved and relocated onto the ASR kit - this still has a main flaw of the whiteline kit and will no doubt still "tear out" the ASR or subframe in time.

mugen_ctr
27-03-2011, 03:02 PM
thread revival.... Anyone know the part number for Ek9 Rear swaybar D bush brackets? i ordered some through honda, i dont think the guy knew what i wanted as instead he got me Ek4 brackets :S