View Full Version : Anyone using Apexi V-AFC in Euro
mugen88
22-02-2006, 10:31 PM
Anyone out there using a Apexi V-AFC 2 unit in a current model Euro with iVetec.
Can you give me a indication of what gains you are experiencing and what mods you ae running with it.
Also was it worth the money and time for this unit?
Cheers. :D
TypeG
22-02-2006, 11:33 PM
throw it away pls =)
pinklady
22-02-2006, 11:43 PM
the purpose of vafc is to allow a change in the vtec kick in point (ie setting it earlier) and providing better flow and responses if u hav ur intake/exhaust changed. u won b expecting too much in terms of a power gain and figures, but u'll certainly benifit from having better responses and running more efficient. whether its worth the money? its really personal preference.
stephen8512
22-02-2006, 11:49 PM
VAFC-II is nothing more than a pretty blue screen with numbers on it
seriously, if u want real gains u have to have a reflash on ur current ECU or full replacement ECU, e,g Apexi Power FC.
VAFC doesnt do much at all IMO and changing VTEC crossover point isnt beneficial as hondas are designed so that when VTEC hits, thats when its at its optimum performance level.
sure if u have modded ur car, VAFC might help a LITTLE, but for the price you pay for it, i dont think its worth it sorry....
mugen88
23-02-2006, 07:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback. :D
EuroAccord13
23-02-2006, 10:01 AM
SEARCH, me and euro77 have them, again, only beneficial if you have other N/A mods...
Chris_F
23-02-2006, 10:09 AM
the idea of the vafcII or a reflash doesn't really do it for me... when are we going to get a stand alone ecu that can control drive-by-wire throttle :(
id just get the vafc or safc cuz they look cool sitting on ur dash
Omotesando
23-02-2006, 04:37 PM
It is so funny then the so-called experts on the VAFC-II explains what it does without actually KNOWING it...
The VAFC-II is a derivative of the SAFC-II, and MAINLY used for adjusting the Air : Fuel ratio, in order to get a Power Increase and/or Fuel Economy. Its named AFC which stands for Air Flow Converter for a reason!
The V means VTEC and is used to control the VTEC or Mitsu's MIVEC engaging point as mentioned whereas the normal SAFC only controls the Air Fuel ratio, which works well enough on most other cars.... especially on turbos which are running rich and only wanting a light tune.
It is cheap enough compared to an ECU reflash/Piggy back ECU that it attracts low tune only customers, but obviously it is not the ideal situation. But to say it does nothing is a bit too much! lol!
Peekay34
23-02-2006, 05:32 PM
I have been advised that these are a waste of time on the Euro as the ECU on the car learns and adjusts to compensate. I have a friend who had one on a euro and he advised they were a waste of money because it did not really do any thing for him.
If you want to wait there will be a reflash in the future. My car is the development car and is now running at 147KW at the wheels on a hub dyno with an custom made exhaust.
Omotesando
23-02-2006, 05:57 PM
I have been advised that these are a waste of time on the Euro as the ECU on the car learns and adjusts to compensate. I have a friend who had one on a euro and he advised they were a waste of money because it did not really do any thing for him.
If you want to wait there will be a reflash in the future. My car is the development car and is now running at 147KW at the wheels on a hub dyno with an custom made exhaust.
The HONDATA is obviously a much much better choice with WHAT you can tune with, Cam angles, Ignition Timings and Air Fuel Ratio, etc,. That is the ultimate solution. I want ONE!
However Hub Dyno is also incomparable to the normal at wheels dynoes that other people use, as it gives out around 20awkw more than a Dyno Dynamics. As far as I'm concerned only Revzone uses hub dyno in melb, and also MRT in sydney uses the hub dyno as well. This is a great dyno, the best in fact - but to quote 147 at the wheels or hubs is a bit misleading I think to people not really sure what a hub dyno is!
As for VAFC-II settings being cancelled out by oem ECU readjusting itself - I think it has to do with two things. The narrow band Oxygen Sensor should definitely adjust for cruise mode Air Fuel Ratio every minute for partial throttle inorder to save fuel during normal cruising or highway driving.
As for WOT (Wide Open Throttle) the modern ECU's and Oxy Sensor can tend to work out what is the average Air Fuel Ratios when you are full throttling the car, during say a 1 or 2 month period, and will adjust the ECU settings accordingly but very slowly. Since the VAFC-II works by lying to the ECU's reading of the MAF and MAP sensors in order to give it less fuel (for higher AFR for more power and to change VTEC point), but it doesn't over-ride the Oxy Sensor's detection and therefore adjustment of long term WOT AFR....
Well I think it is possible that the VAFC-II settings could become less effective over the long run, depending on how fast the ECU reacts.
Although for some reason, people who have VAFC-II's doesn't seem to ever see a power drop during their 2nd or 3rd dyno sessions. Don't ask me why!
Someone explain?
By the way, the VAFC-II also connects to the Knock Sensor so that you will know on the screen whether the car's engine is seeing detonation. Quite handy for this function indeed!
Peekay34
23-02-2006, 10:10 PM
You may say that but unless I get a chance to run the car on a Dyno Dynamics setup who can say. But even Dyno Dynamics roller dynos are not accurate. The way you tie down a car can make up to 10KW difference from what I have read. We shall see anyway as soon as I get a chance I will run it on a roller dyno when I get enough time to do it..... Untill then who knows what it is accurate form of measure or not.....One thing I can say the car even on a Hub Dyno is making a huge diffrence from where we started from and are at now. For other people who don't know what a Hub dyno is here is a link http://www.dynapack.com/dynapack.html.
The HONDATA is obviously a much much better choice with WHAT you can tune with, Cam angles, Ignition Timings and Air Fuel Ratio, etc,. That is the ultimate solution. I want ONE!
However Hub Dyno is also incomparable to the normal at wheels dynoes that other people use, as it gives out around 20awkw more than a Dyno Dynamics. As far as I'm concerned only Revzone uses hub dyno in melb, and also MRT in sydney uses the hub dyno as well. This is a great dyno, the best in fact - but to quote 147 at the wheels or hubs is a bit misleading I think to people not really sure what a hub dyno is!
As for VAFC-II settings being cancelled out by oem ECU readjusting itself - I think it has to do with two things. The narrow band Oxygen Sensor should definitely adjust for cruise mode Air Fuel Ratio every minute for partial throttle inorder to save fuel during normal cruising or highway driving.
As for WOT (Wide Open Throttle) the modern ECU's and Oxy Sensor can tend to work out what is the average Air Fuel Ratios when you are full throttling the car, during say a 1 or 2 month period, and will adjust the ECU settings accordingly but very slowly. Since the VAFC-II works by lying to the ECU's reading of the MAF and MAP sensors in order to give it less fuel (for higher AFR for more power and to change VTEC point), but it doesn't over-ride the Oxy Sensor's detection and therefore adjustment of long term WOT AFR....
Well I think it is possible that the VAFC-II settings could become less effective over the long run, depending on how fast the ECU reacts.
Although for some reason, people who have VAFC-II's doesn't seem to ever see a power drop during their 2nd or 3rd dyno sessions. Don't ask me why!
Someone explain?
By the way, the VAFC-II also connects to the Knock Sensor so that you will know on the screen whether the car's engine is seeing detonation. Quite handy for this function indeed!
I agree with what you said. dyno pack reads higher than other dynos, it's said in hondata website. I have used vafc2 on my car before. It gives 6-8 kw to my car after tuned, well depends on your mods, but I decided to take it off and waiting for hondata as it will work more smoothly and offer more feature for honda.
You may say that but unless I get a chance to run the car on a Dyno Dynamics setup who can say. But even Dyno Dynamics roller dynos are not accurate. The way you tie down a car can make up to 10KW difference from what I have read. We shall see anyway as soon as I get a chance I will run it on a roller dyno when I get enough time to do it..... Untill then who knows what it is accurate form of measure or not.....One thing I can say the car even on a Hub Dyno is making a huge diffrence from where we started from and are at now. For other people who don't know what a Hub dyno is here is a link http://www.dynapack.com/dynapack.html.
If you have a chance try to dyno it on other dyno. But I'm really sure with hondata ecu there is a big gains.
But well 147 kw with only ecu, air filter and custom exhaust is quite shocking for me. It means you have gain 40 kw+ over standard with your current mods.
Obviously my friends nissan 350z with air filter and catback resulted with 149 kw, well is quite confusing for me, no offence.
As the standard euro =140 kw at crank and 350z = 206 kw that's big difference. but yeah well maybe just different dyno
albii
23-02-2006, 11:32 PM
who really gives a crap if it makes 300kw atw....
lets see how quick it will be when it does a quarter mile pass.
dyno numbers are just that...numbers
doesnt mean that because it makes xxx amount of power on the dyno that it will be very quick.
dynos and real world quarter mile times are very different.
Omotesando
23-02-2006, 11:48 PM
Looking forward to when you put it on a Roller Dyno as a comparison, preferably on a machine which people can relate to in Melbourne such as the APS, Dynomotive, Protek, Tecnik Tuning Dyno, etc,! :D
But you are wrong in saying that 'until then who knows if it is accurate form of measurement or not', because as I have already said the Hub Dynoes are definitely the most accurate, as you already know too! Especially compared to roller dynos.
In an ideal world all dyno machines will be like the Dynapack 'at hub' dyno machine!
As you said, the roller dynos are not completely accurate as it can have rooms for errors, especially with regards to wheel sizes. Tying down the car wouldn't make a lot of difference at your low-mid 1XX KW power level however, unless its approaching 200awkw or it is an AWD which is trying to jump off the machine. But for comparing before and after mods KW difference it is accurate enough that most professional tuners use it. It has its advantage as it is cheaper, also the many cars can be driven on and off one easily, compared to a hub dyno where wheels need to be taken off each time!
10Kw difference isn't a lot either - if the dyno tuner knows how to muck around with the settings, they could get you 20 or 25awkw more or less if they wanted to. Although in real life usage this normally wouldn't happen, where the figure as it stands with atmospheric correction and the right calibration software version update (from the dyno supplier), with a good enough tie down, the figures from them are fairly good!
Wouldn't call a Dyno Dynamics or other roller dynos not accurate as it is used to measure vehicles with 500-600KWAW power with good enough tuning and power measurement that the owners are happy with them.
The only advantage these have over the hub dynos is that, roller dynos are everywhere and as such, people have a much better comparison of what they expect to get from certain mods.
I agree that your 147awkw from Hub Dyno is very accurate for what it is, but it is just hard to relate to anything else since not many people in Australia uses one.
What does the stock, completely unmodded Accord Euro do on this dyno, for example? I think it has been asked before, but no one has answered it. If we had this figure in our mind, then we can know what each mod on your car has gained over standard, especially the Hondata reprogram! :)
Omotesando
23-02-2006, 11:59 PM
By the way, just thought I will mention that most Dyno Days only ever use roller dynos....
That is why I think we normal citizens who cannot afford a Hub Dyno, would love to see your car have a run on a roller dyno too !
who really gives a crap if it makes 300kw atw....
lets see how quick it will be when it does a quarter mile pass.
dyno numbers are just that...numbers
doesnt mean that because it makes xxx amount of power on the dyno that it will be very quick.
dynos and real world quarter mile times are very different.
I really agree with you mate. Dyno just numbers. different dyno different figures. quarter mile gives you real answer how quick are you
I agree that your 147awkw from Hub Dyno is very accurate for what it is, but it is just hard to relate to anything else since not many people in Australia uses one.
What does the stock, completely unmodded Accord Euro do on this dyno, for example? I think it has been asked before, but no one has answered it. If we had this figure in our mind, then we can know what each mod on your car has gained over standard, especially the Hondata reprogram! :)
But do you think it is reasonable to compare peekay's before and after figures as a percentage increase (as he used same dyno)? Surely the average increase worked out over a series of runs gives the most valuable figure. In some parts of the rev range it is over 20% increase in power / torque - so I would expect regardless of dyno used the percentage increase is similar.
Peekay34
24-02-2006, 07:16 AM
Mainly I was just trying to point out also that there had been a further 7 kw gain on the dyno anyway since the last ecu flash revision. I should have left a link to the thread about the results....
Omotesando
24-02-2006, 02:49 PM
But do you think it is reasonable to compare peekay's before and after figures as a percentage increase (as he used same dyno)? Surely the average increase worked out over a series of runs gives the most valuable figure. In some parts of the rev range it is over 20% increase in power / torque - so I would expect regardless of dyno used the percentage increase is similar.
Yeah sure thing...
This is of course very relevant. All I was saying is that the 147KWAW mentioned wasn't that relevant, as a lot of people on this forum who don't have a clue about dynos unlike yourself, always seem to QUESTION Peekay's such-a-high-figure results anyway even though what matters most is the increase on the same dyno.
The thing is though, WE NEED A STOCK EURO'S DYNO GRAPH FROM THIS DYNO.
2ndly I hate it when people keep saying with such as such there is a 20% or 25% more power increase possible! The increase in power in some part of the rev range isn't the same as a 20-25% increase throughout the whole rev range right? There is a huge difference. When revving the car out from idle, this rev range's increased power barely lasts a second. The more realistic explanation would be that there are some small gains throughout the rev range, but at the critical point there is a 25% increase in power which get rids of the power dip. The really good thing about it is that it seems to occur at the most important moment, which is right after the shift point at the 5000rpm mark! So in theory this should make the quarter mile run a bit faster.
Back to the topic, the VAFC-II isn't as rubbish as people think it is though right? But compared to Hondata of course it is nothing flashy (haha).
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