V-AFC II, e-Manage, S200......

[Jus-10]

I am looking to compare the above and any other options. The 3 mentioned above obviously offer different tuning qualities and cost differing amounts. My question is what to use? :?

The system will be used on a Honda Jazz VTi. Current mods are a cat-back exhaust and new cold air intake set-up. In the future, a Spoon throttle body and extractors will be fitted if/when they can be located.

The e-Manage is extremely popular in Japan with modified Jazz owners and they appear to be getting rather impressive results (it is very hard to decipher a lot of info), and there appears to be a few Jazz owners in Australia who are keen on the V-AFC II. I am yet to see a Jazz with the Hondata.

Anyway if some of the tech-heads here could offer some of their invaluable experience it would be greatly aprreciated.

Justin

P.S. Cost is not really a factor....I simply want something that will make the most of the mods. Value for money is the key.

[type one]

BFYB = e-manage

BUT definitely will need a good tuner... i opted for a stand alone but was seriously looking into this unit for my teg... I was just concerned that no one in Melb could tune the thing as it was meant to be tuned.... But if someone replies and recommends a tuner then do it...

Over hondata, in my mind for level of use (1.5L vtec) and over V-AFC 2 as e-manage can adjust fuel and ignition timing.. therefore in my mind for your purpose best value for money...

An aside.. i have a spoon TB, but most guys would say this is rice.. get your stockie and pay $250 to have it bored it professionally...

[jenova]

I am looking at these piggyback ecus as well. From what I know both vafc2 and emanage has to be retuned when the OBD2 system learn that it is being "trick". And Hondata only works on a OBD1 ecu.

For cars with only bolt on mods i/h/e, my 1st preference here is still the emanage as it can control ignition timing as vafc2 can't, and it cost less than a s200 system. I will definitely get the emanage if someone can enlighten us how to get around with the OBD2 issues.

[Jus-10]

So does the Jazz use OBD2? Sorry I have no idea about that sort of thing...what is OBD1/2? Isn't there some OBD2 upgrade for the S200?

If what you are saying about how the Honda ecu can learn that it is being "tricked" is true, then wouldn't it be theoretically possible for the Honda ecu to "learn" the new i/h/e mods, thus making these piggy-back ecus not worthwhile?

The e-Manage seems to be what I am heading towards as it offers more features than the A'pexi unit, but as has been mentioned, finding someone to tune it correctly is the big issue....I believe there is one shop in Castle Hill (Sydney) that is supposedly the only recommended tuner in Sydney - that's just what I have heard.

I don't want to get stuck having to pay for retuning it all time. I too am very interested in this.

[fueltank]

VAFC2 doesn't do ignition timing whereas e-manage does.
emanage also has a better tuning resolution.
emanage is only marginally more over a VAFC2.

if you could get a plug'n'play standalone like powerfc or hondata, then that would probably be better having said that, where do you want to take the car?
cams? turbo?

[Jus-10]

I'm not sure how far I want to take the car as no one seems to go beyond bolt-on mods like intakes and exhast systems. I am also finding it very hard to find people in Sydney that will help me so I guess I am a bit of a guinea pig.

I want to keep it all true to the game (N/A) and have been considering a cam upgrade somewhere down the track to go with the mods listed above....but that would be after I do the TB and extractors - I want to see how much of a difference that makes and may find that a cam isn't necessary for what I want.

The major draw back I am finding is that the vast majority of Jazzs being modded in Japan are all the 1.3 i-DSi engine (and they only have auto too) so most parts offered are for that engine (as opposed to my 1.5 vtec).

[pornstar]

if ur worried about all that id go a unichip brother. but ive playted around abit now with the e-manage, they are a POS, but good for taking up room in my garbage thats about all.

[fueltank]

OBD = OnBoardDiagnostics.

I think if the fit in jp are doing well with the emanage then perhaps that would be the more economical path.

If I was in your shoes, I'd take the car to Mu Secret (mascot area) or BEL Performance (homebush)

[VTEC16]

if ur worried about all that id go a unichip brother. but ive playted around abit now with the e-manage, they are a POS, but good for taking up room in my garbage thats about all.

tell us more about the e-manage if you can...

[pornstar]

its a pos simple. unless ur happy to vhae ur car idling crappy, running crappy, poor fuel economy...yada yada yada.

japs dont believe in good engine management, thats the only gripe with their tuning.

[Weq]

my car idles fine, fuel econmy is down 4-50km's per 20L's running 10psi. But i do agree, it has some bad mapping points and can be a bit rough.

[EuroAccord13]

I've seen VTEC engine do very well with the E-Manage System.. It's abit steep in Australia but you can get one overseas with everything for half the retail price here :)

CHEERS
Nick

[UR2L8]

Jenova: looks like you have been brain washed by some "hondata" sellers. It really depends on how much money the guy is willing spend on a ECU. If your on a budget, then a VAFC2 does improve performance and is noticeable, it works and I speak from expirience, it probably isnt as good as S200 or PowerFC but for about $1600 less, I belive its value for money. The VAFC2 costs aprox $600 and a S200(hondata) is about $2100. Once again depends on how big your pockets are.

[fueltank]

its a pos simple. unless ur happy to vhae ur car idling crappy, running crappy, poor fuel economy...yada yada yada.

japs dont believe in good engine management, thats the only gripe with their tuning.

who tuned it? what car was it in? injector sizes?
i had an emanage in my car with no problems.

alot of people will say jap stuff is crap because they don't know how to operate it :shock:

[McChook]

I know of 3 Type Rs running each of those 3 systems - plus another running an Apexi Power FC.

IMO. Hondata or PFC is the best. VAFC and Emanage just behind

I know a lot of people bag out the Emanage, I used to until I saw one in action. They aren;t too bad, and infact, there is a lot worse out there. With a good tune, they are just as good as a VAFC. However the hondata and PFC have the advantage of being standalone ECUs....

[VTEC16]

From looking at their features, it would seem that the e-manage is better than the VAFCII .....but are you guys saying this is not the case?

[cheebye]

so if lets say I got a cat-back system and an apexi intake.. what more benefits would fitting a e-manage or V-AFC II do? do they alter vtec points? any more power gains?

[Jus-10]

Both the e-Manage and V-AFCII can alter vtec crossover points when accelerating, that is from low-hi and when decelerating (hi-low).

From what I gather, there is little to no experience with the tuning of the e-Manage and perhaps that is one of the problems with the average results achieved in Australia to date. I am only speculating here of course but I have heard a bit of talk about how there aren't many people out here that can tune them to their full potential.

If you look soleley at the stats of both the V-AFC II and the e-Manage, then the e-Manage will win. You will however find that more people in Australia are familiar with the A'pexi unit and hence it's popularity out here.

This is why am a bit confused as to what to do. I have been researching the Jazz (Fit) in Japan for the past 4 or 5 months, and I am yet to see one over there using the V-AFC/S-AFC (most of their cars don't have the vtec engine remember). Perhaps this is the reason they stay away from the A'pexi units?

That said, A'pexi does recommend the V-AFC II for my L15A engine.....

So I guess I am still none the wiser really. The e-Manage seems the way to go, but there is a lack of support and tuning ability inAustralia.

The V-AFC II doesn't offer as much tunability as the e-Manage, but there is more experience with, and support for this unit in Australia.

The S200 is obviously in a different league again, but is it worth twice the cost of the other units for my planned mods?

OR should I not bother with anything?

Here is an extract from the Flyn Performance website about the cost and tuning of the e-manage:

Package Low Price: AUD$1250

or

Package without software: AUD$950

Hills Motorsport is our only authorised e-Manage tuner in Sydney. It will cost you a partnership price of only AUD$450 to install the e-Manage and tune your vehicle to maximum performance and drivability, also we provide the support tool for free so you don't need to buy the support tool.

So basically if you don't pay for the software, it is going to cost $1400. The V-AFC II is going to cost around the $1000-1100 mark to be fitted and tuned (I'm assuming).


Hmmmm.....what to do

[fueltank]

Just to let you know that Flyn Performance is not the authorised distributor of Trust gear, Advan in silverwater is and as for Hills Motorsports?.....PM me for a horror story.

Give BEL Performance a call they are the Apexi distro in NSW, they also have tuned many cars with the e-manage. Ask for Ben/Eric and tell them Ed sent you.

[VTEC16]

Here is an extract from the Flyn Performance website about the cost and tuning of the e-manage:

Package Low Price: AUD$1250

or

Package without software: AUD$950

Hills Motorsport is our only authorised e-Manage tuner in Sydney. It will cost you a partnership price of only AUD$450 to install the e-Manage and tune your vehicle to maximum performance and drivability, also we provide the support tool for free so you don't need to buy the support tool.

So basically if you don't pay for the software, it is going to cost $1400. The V-AFC II is going to cost around the $1000-1100 mark to be fitted and tuned (I'm assuming).


So those prices inlcude the actual units?

does anyone know how much it would cost to get a VAFC installed and tuned (if you already have one -which i dont yet...)???

[Jus-10]

I believe it is about $450 to have the V-AFC II installed and dyno tuned, and yes, the prices listed include the units themselves.

Fueltank man I will check out Bel Performance as I live in Homebush myself which is pretty convenient now isn't it!

Thanks for the advice everyone!

J

[pornstar]

Ill be honest and frank with u guys.

If u know how to tune, ie u know what an engine needs, what timing it would use, etc etc, that comes from experience.

ok say now that u wanna give 2% more duty cycle on the injectors at 5,500rpm to compensate for ur mods. Im just giving an example so dont crucify my argument about if the e-manage can or cant at 5,500, its just to demonstrate a point.

Say now that ur computer cant alter injectors duty cycle by 2% increments, what do you do? max power happens if u give it 2% more, do u leave it and let ir run abit leaner? or say if it can, u must increase it by 5% increment, which makes u abit rich, and hence rob u of power.

Do u see my point? it just defeats the purpose of spending that money on a system which u want to use to make power. Im just saying that even if a tuner is good enough, if the system simply cant do it, its mute whether or not the tuner knows what he is doing.

These piggy backs cant run bigger injectors, the timing for spark is very limited in adjustment points, etc etc list goes on. hope that helps

[type one]

Ill be honest and frank with u guys.

If u know how to tune, ie u know what an engine needs, what timing it would use, etc etc, that comes from experience.

ok say now that u wanna give 2% more duty cycle on the injectors at 5,500rpm to compensate for ur mods. Im just giving an example so dont crucify my argument about if the e-manage can or cant at 5,500, its just to demonstrate a point.

Say now that ur computer cant alter injectors duty cycle by 2% increments, what do you do? max power happens if u give it 2% more, do u leave it and let ir run abit leaner? or say if it can, u must increase it by 5% increment, which makes u abit rich, and hence rob u of power.

Do u see my point? it just defeats the purpose of spending that money on a system which u want to use to make power. Im just saying that even if a tuner is good enough, if the system simply cant do it, its mute whether or not the tuner knows what he is doing.

These piggy backs cant run bigger injectors, the timing for spark is very limited in adjustment points, etc etc list goes on. hope that helps


Agreed.. but if i am not mistaken its for a Honda Jazz??? half of the issues you mentioned don;t really come into play..unless the owner wants 250HP (see All Motor Thread hahahahaha kidding)

[pornstar]

well i guess if u want ur car to feel abit choppy, have bad fuel mileage etc, go for it.

[fueltank]

The emanage adjust injectors on a 0.5% increment, not the 5% that you have stated. I can take a screen shot within the program if anyone needs to see it :roll:

The emanage CAN run bigger injectors, but the manual states that it will have idling issues with injectors 150% over stock and if you're going for that much more HP that you need 150% sized injectors over stock, you should be switching over a standalone anyway or alternatively run sub-injectors which the emanage can also control.

the unichip is also a piggy back. ;)

Unlike other performance chips, the Unichip is not a replacement pre programmed "one size fits all" chip. Unichip works in harmony with the standard ECU and is mapped live on your engine to obtain the safest maximum power, torque and optimum fuel economy.

[VTEC16]

Ill be honest and frank with u guys.

If u know how to tune, ie u know what an engine needs, what timing it would use, etc etc, that comes from experience.

ok say now that u wanna give 2% more duty cycle on the injectors at 5,500rpm to compensate for ur mods. Im just giving an example so dont crucify my argument about if the e-manage can or cant at 5,500, its just to demonstrate a point.

Say now that ur computer cant alter injectors duty cycle by 2% increments, what do you do? max power happens if u give it 2% more, do u leave it and let ir run abit leaner? or say if it can, u must increase it by 5% increment, which makes u abit rich, and hence rob u of power.

Do u see my point? it just defeats the purpose of spending that money on a system which u want to use to make power. Im just saying that even if a tuner is good enough, if the system simply cant do it, its mute whether or not the tuner knows what he is doing.

These piggy backs cant run bigger injectors, the timing for spark is very limited in adjustment points, etc etc list goes on. hope that helps

your still gonna be closer to stoich than stock.....

[pornstar]

im not argueing that it isnt a tuning tool, thats what ur implying VTEC16? Im saying that its not a GOOD tuning tool.

Why bother spending all this money only to compromise its performance by the ecu that u use.

im not a workshop so i have nothing to gain by selliung u a standalone or not. Im just saying cos the majority of people who use Greddys to begin with hate them and all change out when they add more mods. why spend 2 times when u spend it right the first time and u can keep it for all mods after that.

if ur going to be pedantic about what 0.5% v what i said about 5% then yeah thats right, but u should also know that some computers can go even closer than that, and when ur talking about such small amounts of fuel being sprayed, u will also see how significatn that percentile is.

[Jus-10]

OK I get what you're saying Pornstar (i think)....basically if you need to increase by 5% (for example) to achieve maximum performance, but the system/ECU/piggyback only allows a maximum of 2% adjustment, then basically you are making huge sacrifices and wasting your money because you can't tune the engine for maximum performance and effeciency....

That said, all I want to do is make sure I am getting the MAXIMUM benefit from the i/h/e mods as the OEM parts are/were ultra-restrictive, and surely there aren't going to be huge adjustements that need to be made...I don't know.

I'm still no closer to making a decision although there has been some good info here.

Perhaps if someone can say what things I need to look at adjusting based on the mods I have, that is, do I need to consider things like timing adjustment, etc. If all I need to worry about is the air and fuel, then the V-AFC II should suffice. If I need to take timing in to account as well then I should be considering the e-Manage or something better?

Another point is fuel. At the moment I use regular ULP, but will go to PULP. Does this make any difference at all?

I am not expecting massive gains out of this process or miraculous power figures. I simply want to make sure all my expensive parts are working in harmony together.

[pornstar]

If i were u jus-10, i woudnt even bother with ECU's yet bro.

The I/H/E that u have done, yeah it might flow better now cos of them, but it doesnt drastically alter ur a/f curves by that much that u would see that big a gain with an ecu.

[fueltank]

im not argueing that it isnt a tuning tool, thats what ur implying VTEC16? Im saying that its not a GOOD tuning tool.

Why bother spending all this money only to compromise its performance by the ecu that u use.

im not a workshop so i have nothing to gain by selliung u a standalone or not. Im just saying cos the majority of people who use Greddys to begin with hate them and all change out when they add more mods. why spend 2 times when u spend it right the first time and u can keep it for all mods after that.

if ur going to be pedantic about what 0.5% v what i said about 5% then yeah thats right, but u should also know that some computers can go even closer than that, and when ur talking about such small amounts of fuel being sprayed, u will also see how significatn that percentile is.

That is why I asked him ultimately what the car is going to be at the end.
From what I have seen it's Intake, Headers, Exhaust.
The emanage will do the job for that.

Yes you can get even better ecu's like Autronic, MoTec etc.... you get what you pay for and with mild bolt on mods, IMO the emanage is the best bang for buck ECU solution esp at the price tanghy/Z10 can get them for.

EDIT: PS. who are these majority of people who hate them?

[pornstar]

all my friends, all the people who have done a decent set of mods hate them. if its just I/H/E then dont even bother with a piggy back, just leave it, ur af isnt going to change that much to need adjustment.

thats what im saying, if its only lgiht mods, dont bother with an ecu, if its heavy mods dont bother with a piggy back. so i guess im saying dont bother with piggybacks fullstop, but i especially dislike the greddy, its not a good tool at all.

[fueltank]

all my friends, all the people who have done a decent set of mods hate them. if its just I/H/E then dont even bother with a piggy back, just leave it, ur af isnt going to change that much to need adjustment.

thats what im saying, if its only lgiht mods, dont bother with an ecu, if its heavy mods dont bother with a piggy back. so i guess im saying dont bother with piggybacks fullstop, but i especially dislike the greddy, its not a good tool at all.

That's right, I/H/E won't affect your AFR much if at all!
But like all cars from factory the tune can be improved upon.

Fair enough if all your mates and ppl you know don't like it.
There is probably just as many, if not more who do like it. :P

[Jus-10]

But given that my engine is tuned as a LEV with fuel economy as the number one priority and the OEM components were quite restrictive, wouldn't the addition of a very free-flowing intake/exhaust set-up have an affect on the af? What about with the addition of the larger TB as well? Surely this will prevent relatively significant changes to the engine? And the introduction of 98octane to the mix?

I just would have thought this would presesnt some changes, that whilst not as significant as a FI set-up or anything, may warrant the use of some form of system to iron out any glitches and make the most of the new free-flowing set-up.

[pornstar]

with a larger TB and those sort of mods yes an ECU will help, but why skimp on the most important thing man? the whole engine comes together at the ECU, even if u spend 200k on parts etc, if u used a crappy ecu, u wont make good power, or u wont run nicely, ull idle like a pig, ur acceleration would be abit choppy...

if u dont mind ur car running like that, go for it.

fuel tank, yes a few ppl like thes ecus, but these are the same ppl who use mugen spoon and jun ecus that are not reprogramable and think that they will make what the mugen, spoon, jun engine powers. get my drift?

[type one]

i am running a spoon ecu and i am very happy with it... i don;t expect big power and i like the way it smoothes out the power across the range... i would recommed it highly... but then again my philosophy for modifying my car is to improve upon it out of the factory... shrug.. go the spoon ecu... :) hehehe

[fueltank]

fuel tank, yes a few ppl like thes ecus, but these are the same ppl who use mugen spoon and jun ecus that are not reprogramable and think that they will make what the mugen, spoon, jun engine powers. get my drift?

:lol:

well to be honest, I had an emanage in my car (not a honda) and I didn't see any of the troubles you had mentioned.

Jus-10 are you confused now? :D

[pornstar]

sometimes what u dont see and what u do see doesnt matter, its what the engine sees :P

[jenova]

Jenova: looks like you have been brain washed by some "hondata" sellers. It really depends on how much money the guy is willing spend on a ECU. If your on a budget, then a VAFC2 does improve performance and is noticeable, it works and I speak from expirience, it probably isnt as good as S200 or PowerFC but for about $1600 less, I belive its value for money. The VAFC2 costs aprox $600 and a S200(hondata) is about $2100. Once again depends on how big your pockets are.

Can I safely assume that u are saying that a piggyback on a OBD2 ecu will not require a retune in the long run (e.g. no more additional mods)? Or am I missing something here?

lol this thread is giving me more questions than answers :D

[fueltank]

idle was fine, response improved, afr's better.

maybe BEL know the product good & tuned it good :D

[pornstar]

or maybe ur car didnt really even need to be retuned?
maybe u paid all that money for the wank factor of having a tuneable ecu?

then again i dont know, but hey if ur that knowledgeable on the product then if this guy buys it and has problems he cna ask u about it, so i guess thats a good thing for him.

[poid]

For higher octane you'll want to add timing to make power, so the VAFC is no good. I guess that solves one problem :)

But for the rest of it, most Honda ECU's run hella rich from the factory, so i reckon that the usual I/H/E will just add extra air to the fuel that was already there. Now while running in closed loop (ie cruising, low load) the ECU will adjust this so it's back to stoich, but at 80% throttle or higher the a/f ratio should be leaner.

Seeing as i have logged my accord as having a 12.5:1 a/f ratio stock at high load (keep in mind, this is also an engine built for fuel economy) then i think the stock ECU wont have to be modified for fuel, as the extra air coming in will lean it out nicely. The larger TB may make a significant difference, but i reckon a couple of dyno runs with the TB on would be a good idea to see if the fuel curve should actually be altered.

A dyno run would easily be the best way to tell what is required after mods

[fueltank]

or maybe ur car didnt really even need to be retuned?
maybe u paid all that money for the wank factor of having a tuneable ecu?

then again i dont know, but hey if ur that knowledgeable on the product then if this guy buys it and has problems he cna ask u about it, so i guess thats a good thing for him.

Before: AFR was in the 10's.
so I'd say it could've done with some improvement.

I was in the mid 11's after the emanage with a lazy extra 10rwkw.

If you wanna know more about it, I have written a 'What is the emanage'
http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11234

Or maybe you already know what it can and can't do to make a 'informed' decision?

[pornstar]

yep i know what it can and cant do, ive seen it on the dyno, ive also seen what it does to cylinder walls when u mildly detonate, mild enough that u cant hear it, but when u take the head off and send the probe into the cylinders u can.

u say his not turboed? yep thats true, but i still stand by why fart around with something that u really want to have the most control over?

then again i saw skylines australia forum in that link and it all makes sense now. Believe me or not, its up to u, ill show u the difference if ur willing to come down, we will put a full ecu and ur Piggycrap onto the dyno for ur car or mine whatever u want, then u see why i took this stance.

AS for its ability to control ur car, im glad it worked well on ur car, but on the dyno with all my mates and my own car, it doesnt do the trick.

Anyway im done for this conversation. My advice for the original question, if u can save up for a full standalone ecu, dont skimp, its the brain of the motor.

[fueltank]

yep i know what it can and cant do, ive seen it on the dyno, ive also seen what it does to cylinder walls when u mildly detonate, mild enough that u cant hear it, but when u take the head off and send the probe into the cylinders u can.

u say his not turboed? yep thats true, but i still stand by why fart around with something that u really want to have the most control over?

then again i saw skylines australia forum in that link and it all makes sense now. Believe me or not, its up to u, ill show u the difference if ur willing to come down, we will put a full ecu and ur Piggycrap onto the dyno for ur car or mine whatever u want, then u see why i took this stance.

AS for its ability to control ur car, im glad it worked well on ur car, but on the dyno with all my mates and my own car, it doesnt do the trick.

Anyway im done for this conversation. My advice for the original question, if u can save up for a full standalone ecu, dont skimp, its the brain of the motor.I think you are missing the point.
I never once said a piggy back was 'better' or 'on par' to a standalone.
I'm saying for what he is doing, a piggy back will suffice.
All a piggy back does is intercept and adjust the inputs to the ECU to gain the desired output from the ECU (factory).
Sure you will still be bound to the limits of the original factory maps but will he go outside them with I/H/E?

If you have a tuner who knows what they are doing. There won't be a problem. Your bad experience does not mean it doesn't work worldwide.