injectors for a t28 powered dc4

[injektd]

I am in the process of turbo'ing my dc4 integra and am about to order my injectors

Bit confused as to whether or not I need to get the 525cc ones? Or can I get away with the 440's?

The turbo is a t28 non bb if that helps

thanks for any input

[ProECU]

440's will suffice...no problem!

[injektd]

would s2000 ones fit a b series motor?

thanks for the input ProECU just needed some reassurance that they will be fine :)

[ProECU]

not sure if s2000's will fit, BUT REST ASSURED 440's will be fine.

[AusS2000]

injektd - here's a calculator to work out what size injectors you need based on expected horsepower.

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET

At 250hp with a BSF of 0.65 and a Maximum Duty Cycle of 80% it comes out to 537cc/min.

[ProECU]

Thats calc is only a guide...

like I said before, 440's will do if he can get a set cheap, otherwise your 550's will more than do the job

[AusS2000]

not sure if s2000's will fit

They will. If you look around you'll find a thread where fitment is dicussed and confirmed in detail.

[Slaz]

S2000 injectors mount into B16A fuel rails so you'll have to source one if you want to go that way if not just get a set of sard or whatever to suit it.

[terroristone]

i'd go 550cc from rx7 series 4, better to have headroom than none. what if later on you want more boost??? buy new injectors again? when it comes to fuel systems i like to over kill to make sure i never run out and dont have to worry about upgrades again.
Regards Andrew

[Q_ball]

440's will suffice...no problem!
The man has said it 3 or 4 times now...440 will be fine for t28!
Go 440!

[AusS2000]

Sorry, I didn't know he was your man.

440's will be fine, if you don't mind turning up fuel pressure and don't perceive any future upgrades.

Personally I'd stick with RC Engineerings calculations. YMMV.

[ProECU]

you wont need to increase fuel pressure either.

[ProECU]

Sorry, I didn't know he was your man.

..and stop being a tool.

[AusS2000]

OK. What sort of HP are we talking about? What PSI and what A/R? And what is an acceptable duty cycle?

[AusS2000]

I'll stop being a tool when you start backing up your claims. As your 'boy' says, you've stated 3 times that 440s are enough. Enough for what? Enough for how much? The whole secretive, "I know better than you and don't have to explain myself" attitude is a tad arrogant.

IMNSHO 440s are not enough. At least they are not enough to run the sort of Hp I would expect with a safe A/R and reasonable pressure and duty cycle (my calcs are on page 1). And even if they do scrape in it is shortsighted to spec the minimum requirement.

So rather than just repeating yourself why don't you share with us the specs that lead you to believe 440s are enough. Or do we just take your word for it?

[terroristone]

I'll stop being a tool when you start backing up your claims. As your 'boy' says, you've stated 3 times that 440s are enough. Enough for what? Enough for how much? The whole secretive, "I know better than you and don't have to explain myself" attitude is a tad arrogant.

IMNSHO 440s are not enough. At least they are not enough to run the sort of Hp I would expect with a safe A/R and reasonable pressure and duty cycle (my calcs are on page 1). And even if they do scrape in it is shortsighted to spec the minimum requirement.

So rather than just repeating yourself why don't you share with us the specs that lead you to believe 440s are enough. Or do we just take your word for it?

Well said aus2000.

I see it better to explain why to people rather than assume things and maybe lead them in the wrong direction and cost them an engine. I recommend that you do your research and come up with your own answer as to what size to run, don't just go off one mans word, or his "bitchs" word.
Regards Andrew

[AusS2000]

:thumbsup: Cheers.

Us tools gotta stick together. ;)

[Sexc86]

something like 440ccs would be ok, but honeslty the price different between 440s and 750s on average is close to nothing. IMO i would go much larger due to the fact you will always have room for improvment and you will not have to pay too much more.

[DynoDave]

i'd go 550cc from rx7 series 4, better to have headroom than none. what if later on you want more boost??? buy new injectors again? when it comes to fuel systems i like to over kill to make sure i never run out and dont have to worry about upgrades again.
Regards Andrew
Is this from first hand knowledge or something you have read on the net.Rotary injectors have a very bad spray pattern as they come from a 2 stroke style engine where heavy droplets of fuel are requied.And these droplets really do not burn very well in a Honda or any other street driven piston engine.
Regards Dyno Dave

[terroristone]

first hand my friend. i have personally fitting them to a honda b4 and had no problems. i've also used them in a number of other 4, 6 , and 8 cylinder cars. i have also seen there spray patten up against xxx brand and seen no difference. We all have our own opinions on how things "should" be done. They have worked for me and other people over here without any problems.
Regards Andrew.

but to get back on track, i stand by my opinion and say 550cc wheather they are from a rotor or not for a setup running a T28BB.

[yourfather]

if you know so much about these Rotary injectors, wouldn't you understand different method of combustion process means different requirements for fuel injection, therefore you are completely disregarding what people like DynoDave has to say.

He's probabyl been building engines longer than you've been breathing.

Might as well start up your own forum where you spread your own disinformation.

But yeah, 550cc from RC Engineering are ok for you.

[terroristone]

read my post again dude. im not disregarding anything. i am saying that i have used them and not had a problem. there is also no need to speculate who or what i am, because for all you know i might be alot older than you think. It seems that i have been "protrayed" as another internet know all, that is not the case at all, i have proven to my customers and myself that these injectors work...i am not here to argue that x is better than y. if y works for you and x for me i dont see it as being any problem just because one person anounces themselves as being in the "trade" it still dosnt make them right. As i said let him do his research, take into account "everybodys opinion" and make his own mind up. Is it such a problem that 2 peoples opinions confict even when they get the same result? the way to getting that edge on the next guy is called "trial and error", if you listen you are only following, use your brain and try something different and if it works then you are making your own path to success. I think that starting my own thread will defeat the purpose of him asking his question. He wants peoples opinions and that is what he is getting...it upto him to decide, im not telling him go get 550cc, he can make that choice for himself after reading everbodys response and the crap that goes with it.
Regards Andrew.

[AusS2000]

There is definitely some argument to the spray pattern thing, but not being familiar with RX injectors I couldn't say whether or not they are suitable. I do know that RC Eng injectors used to have a less than stellar spray pattern but the newer ones are optimised for a 4-stroke otto cycle engine with direct port injection.

[ProECU]

The turbo is a t28 non bb if that helps

AUS2000 - I dont give a **** if you think i'm arogant, but for this kind of turbo you would not be looking at over 200whp.

I still stand by my original comment, 440's will be fine. If you can source them cheap, go for it, otherwise 550's will be more than enough.

[DynoDave]

read my post again dude. im not disregarding anything. i am saying that i have used them and not had a problem. there is also no need to speculate who or what i am, because for all you know i might be alot older than you think. It seems that i have been "protrayed" as another internet know all, that is not the case at all, i have proven to my customers and myself that these injectors work...i am not here to argue that x is better than y. if y works for you and x for me i dont see it as being any problem just because one person anounces themselves as being in the "trade" it still dosnt make them right. As i said let him do his research, take into account "everybodys opinion" and make his own mind up. Is it such a problem that 2 peoples opinions confict even when they get the same result? the way to getting that edge on the next guy is called "trial and error", if you listen you are only following, use your brain and try something different and if it works then you are making your own path to success. I think that starting my own thread will defeat the purpose of him asking his question. He wants peoples opinions and that is what he is getting...it upto him to decide, im not telling him go get 550cc, he can make that choice for himself after reading everbodys response and the crap that goes with it.
Regards Andrew.
Welcome to OzHonda the forum of smartarse internet no alls.The problem that you will have is no one on here seems to know who you are and where you get your knowledge from thats all, and once they do know they will treat you with respect and accept your answer's as someone who knows.
Regards Dyno Dave

[AusS2000]

Your original post:


AUS2000 - I dont give a **** if you think i'm arogant, but for this kind of turbo you would not be looking at over 200whp.

440's will be fine. Even at 90% duty cycle (which is near stock duty cycle for a honda anyway).

If you're looking for an argument, you've found it.

:kiss2:

Not looking for an argument. Just looking for some back up to your opinion. Took you two pages to actually provide anything other than fluff (and then you edited it out - hmmmm). Is that really so much to ask?

Oh, and I forgot, BITE ME! ;)

[AusS2000]

That's Off-topic. Keep your preferred culinary suggestions to yourself.

[terroristone]

Thanks Dave for the warm welcome. hehehe :p im laughing right now seriously. I understand where you are coming from. I'd rather not say who i am or what experience i have as yet, i'll let people make their own judgments for a while, im more interested in getting this honda down the 1/4 than anything, waiting on a heap of suspension parts, been 3 weeks.

It seems that most of the people on the forums are the same across the board. We'll see how it pans out. Cheers.
Regards Andrew. :wave:

[ProECU]

I edited my orig post to be more reader friendly & polite.

Comments such as your Bite Me aren't productive.

..and yes, hondas generally run high duty cycles. Look at the ITR and B16A, they both use 240cc injectors @ high DC.

[AusS2000]

If you and I can agree to drop the vitriol we could probably actually answer this question. But I will say that one of the lines you edited out was the actual facts behind your opinion that would have been nice in the first place and would have avoided this stink.

Hatchet buried.

I wasn't aware of what sort of duty Honda run as standard but I would say that it's probably not so critical in a standard car (if the ITR can be called that) but would become much more important when you start modifying and pushing the limits of the engine. Especially when you are going forced induction and wanting AFRs of 13-12:1.

[ProECU]

If you and I can agree to drop the vitriol we could probably actually answer this question.

I answered the question back on page1 and a few more times since then.

[terroristone]

lol, it just never stops on ozhonda. we should sell tickets. :p

[AusS2000]

Just so you know, I was running 440s in my car (F20C) with a supercharger and 5.5psi (peak). I then went to 550s when I upped the boost to 8psi. I am now running 750s with a GT3071R turbo capped at 7psi but coming in from about 3500 all the way to redline. I upgraded to the 750s because I will be upping the boost and am building a block to suit.

[AusS2000]

I answered the question back on page1 and a few more times since then.

No, you gave an unfounded opinion. And then when I provided an alternate opinion with back up you got shitty.

In fact the only back up to your opinion was posted on page two and subsequently edited out supposedly in order to be polite. And yet you left the expletive in. :confused:

[AusS2000]

To summarise you are suggesting that 440s are fine as long as you're happy to run 90% duty cycle and limit to 200whp.

I'm saying that 550s would be my minimum because I'm not happy to run 90% duty cycle and like to allow for future improvement.

The original poster can decide which answer they prefer.

[Q_ball]

AusS2000,
I meerly gave my opinion of the matter simply by agreeing with ProECU.
You then responded with a smart remark by referring me as one of his "boys".
ProECU then responded by calling you a tool, with reference to your comment, not your opinion of the topic thats at light.
You then have the nerve to continue on and stir an online keyboard argument??
I shall give you one more opinion of mine, and again, its in agreeance with ProECU...you are a tool!!
Much love,
QBALL

[DynoDave]

I am in the process of turbo'ing my dc4 integra and am about to order my injectors

Bit confused as to whether or not I need to get the 525cc ones? Or can I get away with the 440's?

The turbo is a t28 non bb if that helps

thanks for any input
More info on this setup is needed what does the fuel system consist of and the most important part what ECU are you using.
Regards Dyno Dave

[AusS2000]

I'm not going to deny that I'm a smartass and if it makes you feel better to call me a tool then knock yourself out.

My objection (and I would have thought it was pretty clear to anyone of average IQ) is that one person saying '440s are what you need' three times and you saying 'he's the man' does not a conclusive argument make.

If you guys can't back up your arguments then don't be surprised if I make fun of you.

[ProECU]

If you guys can't back up your arguments then don't be surprised if I make fun of you.
Apart from some theoretical internet calculator, I haven't seen you back up your claim either.


My objection (and I would have thought it was pretty clear to anyone of average IQ) is that one person saying '440s are what you need' three times and you saying 'he's the man' does not a conclusive argument make.
It appears you're not of average IQ yourself, or your comprehension skills are extremely poor (no suprises for this forum) as i've always said that if he can get 440's cheap, they will suffice, otherwise 550's will be more than enough.
I never said "440's are what you need".

Thats the 4th time i've stated that now, has it sunk in for you yet?

The concept is really quite trivial, I'm astonished you needed to start such an argument over something so trivial... oh thats right, you have a set of 550's for sale :p

[AusS2000]

Apart from some theoretical internet calculator, I haven't seen you back up your claim either.

What more do you need? And it's way more than you've presented.

BTW, I also journaled my experience upgrading from 440s to 550s to 750s.

As for arguing, it takes two to tango. And only one of us has tried to bury the hatchet.

[ProECU]

I'm more than happy to bury the hatchet. In fact, I don't really qualify this as an argument. I just needed to make those few points.

back to business:
I work with formulas every day, and let me tell you, junk in = junk out.
I can probably make that formula spit out an injector size of 310cc if I tried hard enough.

Also, you are running a bigger displacement engine and much larger turbo than the specified GT28. I can see you definately needing larger injectors, agreed, however, the baby turbo in this topic won't dictate excessive injector sizing.

Another point to consider, is that (i assume) this is a stock motor, stock rods/pistons etc, and hence anything over 250whp is likely to start melting stock pistons, which leads me to conclude, the amount of boost in question here is something in the 8psi range. Perhaps the orig poster can clarify further, as per Dyno Dave's comments.

[LVNIT]

He isnt going through with the turbo conversion anymore.

[AusS2000]

Cool, let's agree to have slightly different opinions. I understand GIGO but I don't think what I entered was garbage.

With regards to melting pistons, that happens when you have too high cylinder heat. The cause of too much cylinder heat is a lean condition. The way to avoid a lean conditions is???

More fuel!

[AusS2000]

He isnt going through with the turbo conversion anymore.

LOL Well I guess 440s will be big enough then. ;)

[ProECU]

The way to avoid a lean conditions is???
More fuel!

heheh, OK.. and what of timing?

[AusS2000]

Sure, but there is not much point in adding power through boost and then having to pull timing to avoid detonation because your injectors are maxed out.

[ProECU]

Sure, but there is not much point in adding power through boost and then having to pull timing to avoid detonation because your injectors are maxed out.

WTF? where can I get some of that shit you're smoking?

anyway, I think its best I leave this topic alone.

[AusS2000]

Why are you so aggressive? If you disagree with my post why don't you say so and explain why?

I'm running an 11:1 compression engine with 7psi so i have a fair deal of experience with tuning for NA type engines for FI. You can only pull so much timing before you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. If you've got high EGTs and your injectors are at 90% duty cycle then they are too small.

Rather than leave the topic alone, why don't you leave the attitude alone and try and discuss this like an adult?

[ProECU]

I'm not arguing with your logic, however, you seem to make up your own questions and answer them.


Sure, but there is not much point in adding power through boost and then having to pull timing to avoid detonation because your injectors are maxed out.

this comment is going off onto another tangent, despite the fact is makes perfect sence.

[AusS2000]

Then why did you mention timing? I'm aware it's another element of tuning, but it's not a substitute for correct fueling.

Of course I have to make up the questions when all you say is "heheh, OK.. and what of timing?". It's more of that "I know better than you but not looking to share" attitude.

[ProECU]

hahaha, OK. fair enough.

I didn't feel this discussion was helping the original poster.

If you're that cut up about it, perhaps start a new thread on tuning techniques or something to that effect.
It would be good to have others contribute, rather than have a shit fight here.

agree?

[AusS2000]

Nah, I'm spent. LOL

[ProECU]

you're a strange guy. I like it.

[terroristone]

so in the end we are still all friends....lol. What a crack up this thread has been. i feel sorry for the guy who started it, dose anybody remember him?? hehehe we turned him off turbo's..... :p
Regards Andrew.

[spardikis]

whats with the attitude's anyway....like terrorestone said - he probably never wants to hear about a turbo'd honda again!

[vti-2]

Keep the replies on topic guys. Cheers. :)

[shebangs]

For the people still learning.

Can anyone tell me the difference between the efficiency of 440 or 525cc+ injectors at low hp? I remember reading somewhere that bigger injectors are much less efficient? Is this true? For example, on a boost setup producing roughly 200-210hp, 440 may be enough, but if we went with 525cc's, what would the effects be?

Thanks,
Matt

[AusS2000]

The argument is that a bigger injector isis harder to control in fine increments. But the fact is, high quality injectors are very precise devices and there are people running 1000cc injectors and still idling fine. So with good injectors and proper engine management there should be no problems whatsoever.

[locote]

next question...
are RC injectors classified as good injectors??

[saxman]

next question...
are RC injectors classified as good injectors??
they're certainly not bad ones

[AusS2000]

are RC injectors classified as good injectors??

Definitely. What they really are is injectors made by Lucas IIRC that have been finely calibrated to a high tolerance.

[string]

*strokes his injectors while drooling...

A meager 200whp is a little under double stock power for an LS motor (I dyno'd at 114hp for example). 440cc injectors are a little under double the size. The stock fuel pressure regulator is rising rate, so you will be rising in fuel pressure with boost. Stock duty cycle is around 87% or so, so with a higher fuel pressure you'll certainly be close to that magical 80% number.

I definately vote you buy larger ones though. I bought 650cc's for future upgrades since my final goal is around 400whp (hopefully they will be enough with 50psi fuel pressure or so). If your buying new, the price difference is hardly much at all in the scheme of things.

[integrity]

dude
get 550cc ...
i have a turbo dc4 and i am getting 550cc injectors ...
if you want high power and high boost get 550cc injectors
if you want to be a rice burner and just wooosht everyone in the street youll be good with 440

[string]

dude
get 550cc ...
i have a turbo dc4 and i am getting 550cc injectors ...
if you want high power and high boost get 550cc injectors
if you want to be a rice burner and just wooosht everyone in the street youll be good with 440
Woo captain knowledge steps up to the plate! That 25% increase in cc rating is surely the difference between a 'rice burner' and 'high power and high boost'. Good choice.

[AusS2000]

Did I mention I have some RC 550's for sale? ;)

[saxman]

if you want "high power" and "high boost", you're going to need a whole lot bigger than 550cc injectors...

[[stealth]]

t28 - 440... plenti for it's application :D

[AusS2000]

We seem to be going around in circles again. ;)

[dsp26]

This is a conservative rating at 3 bar (Fuel Pressure)

Side Feed Injs

23 cc = 16 WHP
46 cc = 31 WHP
93 cc = 63 WHP
139 cc = 94 WHP
185 cc = 125 WHP * Pink
231 cc = 156 WHP
259 cc = 175 WHP * Red
278 cc = 187 WHP
324 cc = 218 WHP
333 cc = 226 WHP * Grey
---------------------------------------------333 cc @ 4 bar = 261 WHP
370 cc = 250 WHP * Purple
---------------------------------------------370 cc @ 4 bar = 290 WHP
416 cc = 281 WHP
444 cc = 299 WHP * Brick Brown
---------------------------------------------444 cc @ 4 bar = 345 WHP
462 cc = 312 WHP
509 cc = 342 WHP
555 cc = 373 WHP * Yellow
---------------------------------------------555 cc @ 4 bar = 423 WHP
601 cc = 405 WHP * Yellow Tomei
---------------------------------------------601 cc @ 4 bar = 457 WHP
647 cc = 436 WHP
692 cc = 468 WHP
740 cc = 500 WHP * Red
---------------------------------------------740 cc @ 4 bar = 580 WHP

850 cc = 570 WHP SARD
---------------------------------------------850 cc @ 4 bar = 660 WHP

MSD Top Feed Injs

36 lb = 250 WHP
50 lb = 355 WHP
72 lb = 520 WHP
96 lb = 690 WHP

MSD Injs do not run right at 4 bar so don't try it........

[dsp26]

with the above general guideline, you would at least want to over do your applicatio A BIT... this is coz you don't want your injector duty cycle reaching like 90% at high rpm and then something goes wrong like injector wiring or it goes faulty.... this will lead to fuel starvation and a destroyed engine.

not sure what HP figure your after for your car but as a general STOCKISH bolt on (based on a mates DC2vtir turbo setup VAM05Z) the 440cc would be a good starting point with the added safety.....

[integrity]

im running a gt2832r in mine and 550cc is good to get me to 250kw ATW with a strong driveshaft

[dsp26]

im running a gt2832r in mine and 550cc is good to get me to 250kw ATW with a strong driveshaft

fair enough... however what is your injector duty cycle % at peak boost/rpm/KW?? and what is your peak KW that you are getting with this setup?

if you can provide this info it will tell a good benchmark for everyone to learn from...