Quest for more Power...

[kris_]

well the car has been tuned mildly with a Microtech and I have acheived 140.4kw Atw with a T3 turbo from an R32. This was on 6-7psi.

My question is:
What can be done to increase that figure to say 160fwkw.

Firstly the clutch will be replaced as its had it, and boost will be upped to about 9psi.
But apart from that, whats holding the car back?

My mods include:
-Log Manifold
-2.5" Exhaust all the way through (with high flow cat)
-T3
-FMIC
-2 or 2.5" Cooler piping
-450cc injectors
-Microtech LT-10s
-Walbro High flow fuel pump

If the clutch is changed and more boost added, is it likely the 160fwkw figure will be acheived?

Also: Should Vtec still be loud when a car is turboed.
Its a B16A2 btw

[Slow96GSR]

How about the intake, valvetrain, and bottom end? Just adding some simple bolt ons might do it. Try cams and gears. Got time to do a Port and Polish? Then you can do the whole valvetrain. Just my $.02!!

[kris_]

yeah im looking at just doing bolt on mods at the moment
Will CTR cams suit a turbo motor?

[joyride]

for more kw, i'd go 3inch turbo back exhaust, change the turbo (r32? ceramic turbines = snap), wind up the boost abit more and more tuning.

[ProECU]

What is the AR of the turbo?

[LVNIT]

Kris post up the dyno sheet, there are a few things on that which need to be looked at :)

[ProECU]

for more kw, i'd go 3inch turbo back exhaust, change the turbo (r32? ceramic turbines = snap), wind up the boost abit more and more tuning.


Sounds good in theory, however there is still more in his current setup.
He should be "near" 180kw@wheels (180kw@wheels) on 7psi.

[Weq]

that setup sounds about right. im factoring differences in dynos etc.
mrjdm made 155kw on 9psi with 9.5:1 compression in a b16a, same turbo.

3" wont do much for power on our small capacity engines. make spool a tad quicker.

tyep-r cams would be ur best upgrade with some cam gears, im guessing stock internals otherwise. much more power wont be really safe on those pistons though.

[superR]

dude if you are so certain that you can get 180kw @ 7psi ....please tell me why i am only getting 190kw in my turbo type R at 8psi? and it has been tuned by a renounded honda tuner.
and furthermore ....if you can back this claim and previous claims via a dyno sheet only then would i find this fesable.

[string]

dude if you are so certain that you can get 180kw @ 7psi ....please tell me why i am only getting 190kw in my turbo type R at 8psi? and it has been tuned by a renounded honda tuner.
and furthermore ....if you can back this claim and previous claims via a dyno sheet only then would i find this fesable.
You are at higher pressure making more power? Problem lies...?

[string]

What is the AR of the turbo?
.42 / .48

[superR]

well pound for pound the civic that he is claiming to make 180 is making more then a Type R..... work it out.

james

[ProECU]

dude if you are so certain that you can get 180kw @ 7psi ....please tell me why i am only getting 190kw in my turbo type R at 8psi? and it has been tuned by a renounded honda tuner.
and furthermore ....if you can back this claim and previous claims via a dyno sheet only then would i find this fesable.


coz your car is a shitbox and you're a wanker.....OK
Go learn a thing or two about turbos before mouthing off as if you know something, when you clearly have no idea.

I use the same setup as this guy, STOCK motor, STOCK exhaust and make 160kW@4psi.

[Chris_F]

160kw =\= 180kw

proecu - IMO his question was legitimate and was not intended to get under yor skin.

[kris_]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b17/sky_line/scan0001.jpg

There you go

[string]

well pound for pound the civic that he is claiming to make 180 is making more then a Type R..... work it out.

james
Really?

180kw @ 8psi = 7.99kw / pound.
190kw @ 9psi = 8.08kw / pound.

Again, i'm not seeing the problem? How do we know the type-r hasn't been tuned far more conservatively? It does have a much higher compression afterall.

[ProECU]

Just ignore him, he's annoyed his setup is substandard.

[ProECU]

Kris, do you have an a/f plot?

[pornstar]

proECU what was ur stock power run yielding?

[superR]

babahahahah my setup is sub standard ..... i assure you it is not.... and if you think you can make car go better by all means do tell.
when i said pound for pound i ment to inlude the two different displacements also (1.6 to 1.8).
And ill tell you who did tuning but just purerly for arguments sake.....adrian . i am quite sure he knows what he is doin and i have complete faith that the best that canbe found in my car he found, but if you think you can do better the challenge is there dude....my car is ready to be moulded.
then and only then can you say i am a wanker .....keyboard ninja
oh and where is that dyno sheet.

lol
oh and did i not offer you to put your ecu on my car? and to tune it?

james

[kris_]

Kris, do you have an a/f plot?

Nope, thats the only Dyno sheet I got.
Still wondering about whether Vtec should be quite loud?

Also could it be the tuner?

[LVNIT]

Stop the ****en crap in this thread or go start another one, so much bullsht posted already.

Kris the wideband you have in the car can datalog, i think i gave you the cables to datalog with, you can set it up so a laptop records your a/f ratios at a given rpm :)

[kris_]

i dont really need the wideband do i?
As i havethe microtech, and thats been tuned.

I think it may be the case that the turbo is too small.

[LVNIT]

Nope you dont, but you could use it to go over a/f to see whats happening

[ProECU]

Kris

your turbo sizing is fine mate, believe me.
Also the shape of that power curve raises some questions about fuelling, if you can provide a a/f v rpm graph, it would help us help you.

[kris_]

i think fueling is ok
i have a high flow fuel pump

Maybe i need a fuel pressure regulator

[ProECU]

by fuelling I meant the shape of the fuel tables.

[pornstar]

wasnt pornstar a convicted malaysian drug mule ?

So are you going to tell us what your stock run was?

What mph did you run on the quarter mile?

[bennjamin]

PROecu can you state what the base run was or try to help out - rather than hit in with silly little comments k.

[ProECU]

I can state it, but it's my given right to choose not to.
It's irrelevant to Kris_ issues.

I suggest you take a lesson in moderation.

Keep it on topic guys!

[kris_]

i dont have an AF Map

[ProECU]

Kris,
you could always do this if you wanted more help on diagnosis.


Kris the wideband you have in the car can datalog, i think i gave you the cables to datalog with, you can set it up so a laptop records your a/f ratios at a given rpm :)

[Weq]

I think the 'problem' is quite clear. You have only 6psi at redline :/

Look at getting a better boost controller, and make sure that ur cat still flows.

edit:
I want to also make note that this dyno is not done in shootout. Therefor it has even less relevance then before. Im guessing you are making around 120kw peak atm on that boost level.

[Weq]

Really?

180kw @ 8psi = 7.99kw / pound.
190kw @ 9psi = 8.08kw / pound.

Again, i'm not seeing the problem? How do we know the type-r hasn't been tuned far more conservatively? It does have a much higher compression afterall.

This isnt the math that everyone is laughing at, its

160kW @ 4psi = 20kw / psi (10.5:1 ~80kw stock, which is generous!!)

through a 1.75" exhaust

compared to
199kw @ 9psi = 12kW / psi (11.2:1 ~90kw stock, which is generous!!)

through a 3" exhaust and a turbo which flows ~10lb min more.

my stock d-series went
120kW @ 8.5psi = 7kW / psi (9.2:1 60kW stock)

through a 2.5" exhaust and a turbo which flows less then any of the above

I guess we all need a MPH to settle this argument! ;)

[string]

This isnt the math that everyone is laughing at, its

160kW @ 4psi = 20kw / psi (10.5:1 ~80kw stock, which is generous!!)

through a 1.75" exhaust

compared to
199kw @ 9psi = 12kW / psi (11.2:1 ~90kw stock, which is generous!!)

through a 3" exhaust and a turbo which flows ~10lb min more.

my stock d-series went
120kW @ 8.5psi = 7kW / psi (9.2:1 60kW stock)

through a 2.5" exhaust and a turbo which flows less then any of the above

I guess we all need a MPH to settle this argument! ;)
Plus one has 200cc more capacity than the other. I was merely making a point :)

But I do agree, 8psi and 180kw is fantastic. Personally I don't care if it's true or not, but a lot of people love to jump whenever there is a chance of something even slightly exagerated, even to make a point.

[ProECU]

160kW @ 4psi = 20kw / psi (10.5:1 ~80kw stock, which is generous!!)
through a 1.75" exhaust


erm, since when does a stock b16 only make 80kW@wheels, and I think you are also misinformed on the CR of the said motor...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15750&highlight=dyno+day
Post#8

Bumpy1
Civic EM1 B16A2
Best run 96.8 kw @ 7747k rpm
308nm@ 119km/h

John ECU-MAN (http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/automotive/honda/dyno/ecu-man.jpg)
97 CRX jdm ecu
Best run 95.kw (http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/automotive/honda/dyno/ECU-MAN-CRX-95kw.wmv) @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

97 CRX B16A2
John ECU-MAN audm ecu pod
Best run 95.3.kw @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

97 CRX B16A2
John ECU-MAN audm ecu
Best run 93.3.kw @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

Please don't continue posting misinformation.

Thanks

[ProECU]

Personally I don't care if it's true or not, but a lot of people love to jump whenever there is a chance of something even slightly exagerated, even to make a point.


there is still more in his current setup.
He should be "near" 180kw@wheels on 7psi.

And i did say "near".
They musn't teach comprehension in primary school these days ;)

[Weq]

And i did say "near".
They musn't teach comprehension in primary school these days ;)

You said near. I'll take that as a +-10kw. No way. Pretty simple really. How about u teach us the theory behind turbo flow rates, VE, fuel usage and how this relates to final power output.

[Weq]

Re-adjusted formula for your benifit Pro ECU (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpost.php?p=674029&postcount=36):
Using -

95kW stock, 118kw rated, 20% power loss


This isnt the math that everyone is laughing at, its

160kW @ 4psi = 16.25kw / psi (10.2:1 95kw (lol)stock, which is generous!!)

through a 1.75" exhaust

compared to
199kw @ 9psi = 9.6kW / psi (11.2:1 112kw (lol) stock, which is generous!!)

through a 3" exhaust and a turbo which flows ~10lb min more.

my stock d-series went
120kW @ 8.5psi = 5.3kW / psi (9.2:1 75kW (lolx2)stock)

through a 2.5" exhaust and a turbo which flows less then any of the above



Now lets see how useless your reply was, and how outragous your power 'approximations/dyno readouts' are.

Difference between first and 2nd posts on power/PSI estimation

% Difference / ECU used (for shits and giggles)
-20% b16a - Pro Ecu/Neptune/...
-20% b18c5 - PowerFC
-25% d16y1 - Emanage

Oh wait, so i guess, this means that you agree with my inital post... interesting...

[ProECU]

so what you're saying is you dont believe my power output?

no one here has even asked what turbo supeR is using on his ITR.
You guys have absolutely no idea, esp you Weq.
Anyone can do bullshit maths to bias results, you've proved it... where does YOUR formula take turbo sizing, rpm, coef of heat into generating your bullshit numbers?

keep talking crap if it makes you feel better

[Weq]

so what you're saying is you dont believe my power output?

I personally have no problem beleiveing you power output.. Its just trying to convince the rest of humanity.

[Weq]

so what you're saying is you dont believe my power output?

no one here has even asked what turbo supeR is using on his ITR.
You guys have absolutely no idea, esp you Weq.

Its funny cause his running my intercooler piping. How would i know????

[ProECU]

convienient how you dont acknowledge its not a T3 (or is it)...

The plot thickens

[Weq]

so what you're saying is you dont believe my power output?

no one here has even asked what turbo supeR is using on his ITR.
You guys have absolutely no idea, esp you Weq.
Anyone can do bullshit maths to bias results, you've proved it... where does YOUR formula take turbo sizing, rpm, coef of heat into generating your bullshit numbers?

keep talking crap if it makes you feel better

3rd edit.
I tried making the results as uniform as possible, hence i included as much information as i thought relevant. At no time did i ever try and skew the results. Please, please, redo my maths to your standard.

You are running a t3 off a skyline - 300hp - 10.2:1 comp
SuperR is running a RS with t3 housing - 360hp - 11.2:1 comp
i was running a td04 - 250hp - 9.2:1

Im using hp to esimate flow rates and efficency. Please help me understand further.

That other tyep-r with topmount is making ~200kw on a GT30. This also backs up my results.

[Weq]

convienient how you dont acknowledge its not a T3 (or is it)...

The plot thickens

As above.

[ProECU]

I personally have no problem beleiveing you power output.. Its just trying to convince the rest of humanity.


Now lets see how useless your reply was, and how outragous your power 'approximations/dyno readouts' are..

So which one is it?

[ProECU]

3rd edit.
I tried making the results as uniform as possible, hence i included as much information as i thought relevant. At no time did i ever try and skew the results. Please, please, redo my maths to your standard.

You are running a t3 off a skyline - 300hp - 10.2:1 comp
SuperR is running a RS with t3 housing - 360hp - 11.2:1 comp
i was running a td04 - 250hp - 9.2:1

Im using hp to esimate flow rates and efficency. Please help me understand further.

That other tyep-r with topmount is making ~200kw on a GT30. This also backs up my results.

what can I say, dont get your car tuned where the above guys go...

What compressor housing is the RS?

[Weq]

<sarcasm>

I personally have no problem beleiveing you power output.. Its just trying to convince the rest of humanity.
</sarcasm>

[superR]

this is cracking me up......lol
Kris , im sure you know that getting a more efficiant turbo for your engine would help make you more power...... and your dyno sheet shows your boost dropping off... if you have aboost controller maybe that is causeing it.....if you could hold that 7.5 psi or maybe a lil more the power may just be there..... but ultimatly , your turbo is just not suited to your car.....but i can understand that cost is big factor.... if you are in sydney contact adrian from toda Aust. he will give you the low down. his number is P: 02 9605 3477.
he is no bullshit and i have no doubt in my mind that he can solve your quest for power.
And pro ecu , weq makes much more sence then you do :confused: ......where is the dyno sheet? :p

james

[pornstar]

just for informative purposes, most of our dynos read about 84-88kws for stock b16as.

[kris_]

thanks superR, im goin down to online to have a talk with the guys there.

They rekon i should be around the 160 mark.
Will see what they think, seem like top blokes and look like they know what their doin.

PRO-ECU, if you wanna shut everyone up, just post a dyno graph, easy as that. Why argue and argue?

Thanks for the help guys.

[ProECU]

just for informative purposes, most of our dynos read about 84-88kws for stock b16as.

yeah, inferior aparatus and users can do that... its a bitch isnt it

[honda_b_blastn]

I dont know whats in the water you guys drink down south! but the amount of bitching that occurs!..

Everyone chill out,the topic starter asked a few questions concerning his "Honda" not a debat on "turbos"..

[Weq]

I dont know whats in the water you guys drink down south! but the amount of bitching that occurs!..

Everyone chill out,the topic starter asked a few questions concerning his "Honda" not a debat on "turbos"..

Sorry guys. I have been the main offender here. I stand my inital pre-bitch session statements. I think its decent power and there is nothing major lacking from your setup. Me and pro ecu have worked things out and i think my caparisions earlier can be viewed in a more positive light. maybe something to aspire too!

[joyride]

holy crap, this thread went to sh*t

[superR]

lol but its funny

[quangsta]

i thought i was gonna learn something but just made me more confused.... :confused:

[superR]

yer , pro ecu will do that to people...... T3 ppppwwwwwh

[TODA AU]

yeah, inferior aparatus and users can do that... its a bitch isnt it

Evan,

If you could just get past the fact that the dyno (probably Dynopack) you use reads higher than the “Dyno Dynamics” units most others use...
This whole topic would have a lot less animosity in it.
For what it’s worth, piling crap on people isn’t the best way to go about winning friends & influencing people.
Most of these guys in this thread are simply recalling their own experiences.
They haven’t tuned the cars themselves & don’t actually know the answers to half the questions you pose to them.
Further, with the wide variety of set-ups & combinations that are out there. It is quite difficult to judge from afar whether or not there output is sufficient or not.
It may be fair comment to say they could get a little more out of their cars, but ranting & raving then putting them down doesn't achieve anything constructive.
Surely, if they are happy with how their car performs, that is worth something.

To put the shoe on the other foot…
Why is it (apart from on the net) not one of your hard tuned monster’s of horsepower have put down the numbers on the drag strip?
There doesn’t seem to be any mention of these cars in any magazines or online…

Also, when is this "famous on the internet" “Pro ECU” product going to be commercially available?
As a workshop owner, I can say it would be awesome to have a useful alternative available.
However, it’s not… Why is that?

Adrian

[ProECU]

Adrian,

I actually appreciate your comments, however you've made certain assumptions and generalisations, firstly about equipment used, state of the industry in Adelaide, and valuing a product based on 1/4 mile times & BIG HP Numbers.

If anyone would know better, i'd assume it to be you, but I guess your affiliation to certain other products, and certain members of your distribution network, doesn't speak too highly of your evaluation capabilities. (not intended as a personal attack).

I also wonder and question your motivation in making such a post.


If you could just get past the fact that the dyno (probably Dynopack) you use reads higher than the “Dyno Dynamics” units most others use...
This whole topic would have a lot less animosity in it.

My tests have been repeated on a Dyno dynamics, and furthermore, the dyno owner/operator has had repeatability with a nearby Dyno Dynamics shop to within +/- 5% from the mainline. 85kw for a B16, come on now...
Ive tuned B16's on a DDynamics to 106kw.




Further, with the wide variety of set-ups & combinations that are out there. It is quite difficult to judge from afar whether or not there output is sufficient or not.
It may be fair comment to say they could get a little more out of their cars, but ranting & raving then putting them down doesn't achieve anything constructive.

That comprehension again....where & why do you people continue to misunderstand the world wide accepted language that is English? Where have I "put down" as you put it, the original thread poster. I've re-read this thread a few times now, and can only conclude that i've been trying to help this guy.
Take a look at his dyno plot...YOU of all people should notice straight away, the early dip in his curve, and the lack lustre top end...DO YOU NOT AGREE??

I have low tollerance to idiots who persist in jumping in and distorting the issue at hand. As an example, how would my dyno plot actually help this guy?
This type of argument is all fire & smoke, and is intentionally motivated to smear peoples credibility.

To rebut on your judging from a far comment, i disagree.
We are talking about STOCK motors, with turbo's whacked on the end.
There is no black art in comparing to other STOCK motors... not in my book.
Perhaps you're looking to confuse the issue to cash in on customers who dont have a solid grasp on mechanics.


To put the shoe on the other foot…
Why is it (apart from on the net) not one of your hard tuned monster’s of horsepower have put down the numbers on the drag strip?
There doesn’t seem to be any mention of these cars in any magazines or online…

I guess my customers are not into drag racing, they are biased towards circuit racing. Last time I checked, hondas were purpose built track cars.
And I am not into shameless promotion. I dont advertise here, and dont advertise on the net. If you want to find me, I have an email address.
Why is the drag strip the be and end all? Is this how you measure / evaluate a product is it? If a customer chooses not to run the quarter, thats their choice. They paid for the car, they paid for the tune, they reserve the right to decide if they want to track or drag it, not me!



Also, when is this "famous on the internet" “Pro ECU” product going to be commercially available?
As a workshop owner, I can say it would be awesome to have a useful alternative available.
However, it’s not… Why is that?

In summary,
from the outset, I stated two facts.
1. My car's output
2. Fact his car has more in it.

As far as the bickering goes, ask those who baited and fueled it for their motivation. They (and come to think of it, you also) haven't contributed anything of substance to this thread, yet, I am the one under scrutiny...
I have broad shoulders I can take it. Unlike you and others, Im not in the industry to make a living, my education serves me extremely well in my chosen profession.

ProECU will be available, when I am ready...Will you be a distributor...probably not, not with your current distribution network

...and since you've started this line of discussion, why is it that some of your customers continue to contact me for a second opinion on their cars poor performace?

[panda[cRx]]

boys if you wanna see who has the bigger **** take it to pm

edit: good one with the PQ point ev:rolleyes:
not to single out evan but can you guys even go a week without having a go at eachother? everyone knows WHO i am refering to and seriously alot of people are very sick of it. :thumbdwn:
can you try JUST posting the replies to the topic in hand without throwing in that smart ass remark or personal attack? :)

[superR]

Kris man , sorry it all had to get so off topic but how did all your enquieries go? what they say>?
sorry but i have to say this
lol not one of toda AU's questions was answered in that essay.if fact i really did not read it because it seemed it was just your usuall boring retallitation...... i love seeing your comment get burnt.lol


toE edit - Removed comments

[Surrufus]

guys there could be countless reasons your turbo setups are making different power readings
dynos being one of them... unless u used the same dyno at the same shop with the same guy running it, it can make a world of difference
also the quality of parts can make a big deal too
a better produced manifold and dump pipe allow for better flow

[kris_]

its cool, everyone should just chill.

No point to any of this.
I havent taken the car anywhere yet.

I'll leave it how it is for a week or two till i get time to fit the new clutch.
Then i'll give Dyno Dave a call and see if he can throw it on the dyno for a few hours and put a proper tune on it.
The car has more in it, we'll see in a few weeks.

Thanks for all the help guys

Mods close this thread, thanks.

[toE]

Enough!

Any more personal attacks from anyone will receive a suspension!

Does "Take it to PMs" that difficult to comprehend guys?

I'm not going to close this thread yet, as I would like to know the outcome of what kris intends to do in the next coupe of weeks/month.

I dare anyone to post anything unrelated to the topic at hand.

[LVNIT]

One thing I never thought of was the fuel as you would presume they would have said something if it was running lean..

When I had the kit on my car with the 450cc injectors, stock FPR and stock pump, Uberdata would have my duty cycle way over 120% from about 6000rpm onwards.

Adding more fuel to the map would still not bring the AF ratio down, it would constantly sit at about 13.5 anywhere from 6000rpm upwards. Weq can confirm this as he saw the AF gauge when it was all working in my car.

So unless that is a once off thing, I wouldnt know because I dont tune cars everyday, then that is your problem right there. Im not sure what the go is though, as many tuners say that a 450cc injector is plenty..

[TODA AU]

well the car has been tuned mildly with a Microtech and I have acheived 140.4kw Atw with a T3 turbo from an R32. This was on 6-7psi.

My question is:
What can be done to increase that figure to say 160fwkw.

Firstly the clutch will be replaced as its had it, and boost will be upped to about 9psi.
But apart from that, whats holding the car back?

My mods include:
-Log Manifold
-2.5" Exhaust all the way through (with high flow cat)
-T3
-FMIC
-2 or 2.5" Cooler piping
-450cc injectors
-Microtech LT-10s
-Walbro High flow fuel pump

If the clutch is changed and more boost added, is it likely the 160fwkw figure will be acheived?

Also: Should Vtec still be loud when a car is turboed.
Its a B16A2 btw

Looking at your dyno sheet,
It's probable there is incorrect fuel & timing to make good power.
The power curve between 3700rpm & 4900rpm is severly lacking.
If the timing was too much, it'd sound like "Coke cans" shashing on the road next to the car. As you've not mentioned this, I can only guess the car if flat & lazy with isuficient iginition timing at this point.
An overly low Vtec swap will also do this.
Do you have a plot with A/F's ?

Also, 450cc/min injectors are probably a little small without the use of an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. This will alow you to push them a little further.

Regarding the turbo,
As it is a T3 from an RB20DET, don't expect massive power from this unit.
It's ok, but it's not a great turbocharger. They tend to run out of puff on a D16A8, let alone a B16A.
You'd be better off with a 400hp Garret GT
With that set-up, good tuning you should see 170~175kw.
Using a decomp head gasket (though not ideal) you can push it higher in the boost for more power & see over 200kw with a std bottom end & still retain reliability. That said, I'd be looking for at least 550cc/min injectors also.

Just out of interest. How is your ignition system holding up?
Microtechs are notorious for poor spark on Honda's.
If I was doing the car from scratch, I would have steered you towards an Apexi Power FC over the ECU you have as it is far more reliable.
A similar set-up I did years ago can be seen here.
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1256/article.html

Cheers

Adrian

[kris_]

adrian,

the ignition system is holding up quite well.
The car misses a bit on 9psi as the plugs need regapping, other than that, nothin to complain about.

I think it is issues with fueling, i've seen many applications where 450s were used with more power than mine.

If i throw on a FPR, should that make a difference?
Any good ones you recommend? Or are they all the same?

Also the turbo isnt running out of puff just yet, i mean on low boost such as 10psi, it should still be operating quite efficiently.

[TODA AU]

We use SARD regulators,
Firstly becasue they are lenear rate & secondly becasue personally I think they look the best.
I don't like rising rate regulators such as "Malpassi" as they make the fuel table confusing.
Using an adjustable reg will allow you to increase your fuel pressure & use less of your available injection time thus affording more control.

Regarding the miss at 9psi...
You may find this quite troublesome in future ;)

[kris_]

We use SARD regulators,
Firstly becasue they are lenear rate & secondly becasue personally I think they look the best.
I don't like rising rate regulators such as "Malpassi" as they make the fuel table confusing.
Using an adjustable reg will allow you to increase your fuel pressure & use less of your available injection time thus affording more control.

Regarding the miss at 9psi...
You may find this quite troublesome in future ;)

Why will it be troublesome?
Also Todaek9 on the forum is selling an add-on to the std regulator which has an add on that makes it adjustable.
Will that do the job?

[tinkerbell]

IMO - non-linear 'rising rate' regulators are only helpful for non-progamable ECU situations...

IMO - if you have programable engine mangment, stick with linear...

[tinkerbell]

BTW - i use and recommend SARD regulators...

[kris_]

sorry to sound like a noob..

But whats the diff between rising rate and linear?

[tinkerbell]

well, "rising rate" means that the rate of increase in fuel pressure rises as boost rises...

this kinda means you can have normal fuel pressure off boost but increased fuel pressure as boost pressure rises...

it is usually a ratio like 1:2 or 1:5 or 1:10...

it is rather crude IMO...

if you have a linear (ie ratio 1:1) FPR and an programable engine managment - your tuner will be thankful! - IMO

[TODA AU]

IMO - non-linear 'rising rate' regulators are only helpful for non-progamable ECU situations...

IMO - if you have programable engine mangment, stick with linear...

Big ditto... :)

[ProECU]

IMO - non-linear 'rising rate' regulators are only helpful for non-progamable ECU situations...

They're also a necessity for force induced carby applications.

[saxman]

They're also a necessity for force induced carby applications.
Also? how about only... raising rate fmu's are horrible on turbo hondas, especially with how many far superior options there are out there...

granted I know you know that already

[tinkerbell]

sheesh! :zip:

dont take his bait, just let it go man... keep it on topic...

[ProECU]

Not baiting anyone.

Depending on the jet sizing of the carby, a rising rate becomes a handy thing to have.
Take the info as you will... n00b

[saxman]

keep it on topic...
pretty sure discussing the available fuel options to help fix what could be a fuel supply issue is on topic?

[ProECU]

pretty sure discussing the available fuel options to help fix what could be a fuel supply issue is on topic?

Don't take his bait saxman!

[tinkerbell]

discussion forced induced carbies is off topic...

see post #1 for reasons why...

[saxman]

discussion forced induced carbies is off topic...

see post #1 for reasons why...
true, but he did ask about the uses for fmus... and when it comes to a turbo honda, that's pretty much the only reason




anyway, this now has officially became off topic so let us agree... boost dependent fmus shouldn't be a part of this discussion at all as they're complete crap

[tinkerbell]

so let us agree... boost dependent fmus shouldn't be a part of this discussion at all as they're complete crap

um, yeah, i think Adrian and i covered that in post #69, #71, #74 and #75

but thanks for confirming :thumbsup:

[ProECU]

um, yeah, i think Adrian and i ......

LOL, interesting how you put yourself in that category... hillarious

anyway, Hondas did come carburetted, so its not of topic.
I assume its way past your knowledge on how to turbocharge a carby motor properly, so i'll put your response down to ignorance and forgive you.

[kris_]

so rising rate are no go's?

Are all Sard ones linear?

[ProECU]

I'm gonna throw this one out there also...

I dont think you'll need a Fuel Pressure Regulator at all for the boost levels you're looking at, i'd tune it up properly as is, and look at injector duty cycle to see if it maxes out at peak torque (around 7800rpm on a B16).
Duty shouldn't really go past 90%.

If you're then still not satisfied, either throw in some larger injectos, or invest in a FPR (or both) and have your fuel trim scaled accordingly, tidy up the tune, and away you go again.

[saxman]

looking at the afr posted, it really doesn't look too bad... I'd be looking elsewhere anyway



and yes, rising rate fpr's are no good

[LVNIT]

Well im telling you from when this kit was on my b16 the injectors were not giving enough fuel up over 6000, the wideband showed this.

It did not matter what i changed on the map, still did the same thing.

[ProECU]

looking at the afr posted, it really doesn't look too bad... I'd be looking elsewhere anyway

sax, I think thats a plot of the psi across the rpm, not afr.

lvnit, that sounds wierd, but from memory, weren't you running more than 6-7psi boost on your setup?

I really need to see a afr plot to help you more, can you datalog a WOT run as lvnit suggested?

[tinkerbell]

hey ProECU, you arnt even answering the questions kris is asking, you are simply being a PITA...

kris_ - no, there are several types, you need to specify when ordering that you want non-rising rate...

if the one todaek9 is selling is a B&M 'add-on' style, these are OK, and are linear, i have used one, but can be less reliable than the more expensive ones...

[saxman]

sax, I think thats a plot of the psi across the rpm, not afr.
doh! not sure why I thought it was a/f... glanced quickly... your dyno print outs always look so different than out here... what's with not having torque numbers? that's what makes the car fun to drive!


honestly, with that set up, I can't really see the 450cc injectors being a problem unless you're having a fuel supply issue to them. I've tuned a 180kw b16 turbo on 450 cc's before without a problem, so I really can't forsee one at 140kw being an issue... 180 is about pushing it though.

[LVNIT]

lvnit, that sounds wierd, but from memory, weren't you running more than 6-7psi boost on your setup?

I really need to see a afr plot to help you more, can you datalog a WOT run as lvnit suggested?

Sorry you are right about that, I was running 11psi, completely crossed my mind:)

[ALLMTR996]

its cool, everyone should just chill.

No point to any of this.
I havent taken the car anywhere yet.

I'll leave it how it is for a week or two till i get time to fit the new clutch.
Then i'll give Dyno Dave a call and see if he can throw it on the dyno for a few hours and put a proper tune on it.
The car has more in it, we'll see in a few weeks.

Thanks for all the help guys

Mods close this thread, thanks.
I'm told you met up with Dyno Dave over at the Online Performance shop the other day.Fixup what he showed you and give Dale another go at finishing off the tune,and leave the STD fuel pressure reg alone you will never fit a better one on this setup.
ALLMTR996

[kris_]

no worries
Thanks for the advice.
He just told me to fix all the vacuum lines as its all comin from one source

Thanks for the help.

Will let everyone know how it all turns out

[VTi_b0i]

slightly off topic, but how hard is it to get 150kw ATW from a turbo kit for a D16Y1 civic? and will it still be reliable?

[DynoDave]

well the car has been tuned mildly with a Microtech and I have acheived 140.4kw Atw with a T3 turbo from an R32. This was on 6-7psi.

My question is:
What can be done to increase that figure to say 160fwkw.

Firstly the clutch will be replaced as its had it, and boost will be upped to about 9psi.
But apart from that, whats holding the car back?

My mods include:
-Log Manifold
-2.5" Exhaust all the way through (with high flow cat)
-T3
-FMIC
-2 or 2.5" Cooler piping
-450cc injectors
-Microtech LT-10s
-Walbro High flow fuel pump

If the clutch is changed and more boost added, is it likely the 160fwkw figure will be acheived?

Also: Should Vtec still be loud when a car is turboed.
Its a B16A2 btw
Kris did you fix it up yet.
Regards Dyno Dave

[kris_]

Kris did you fix it up yet.
Regards Dyno Dave

hey dave,
I've done the plugs and that was half the problem.
The car isnt backfiring and revving alot smoother than before.
I still need to do the vacuum lines as I havent had much time, however I did give the Fuel Pres. Regulator its own vacuu,m source where the purge valve was.

Will let you know how it turns out when i finish it.

Cheers
Kris