Extending intake pipe

[farkew]

i have a b18 type r motor in my integraa and i have a steel intake from wheree it sits i feel if i took it down into the frontbar i.e. extended it would i receive much gain out of this?>?? i have a flexi tube coming from the front bar to the pod..... but i would think that the more cold air the better.... can someone point me in the right direction in what i should do i am new to hondas lol

[Zilli]

you can go the DIY route and extend the tube as you say, CAI or Cold air induction is what your talking about, and the debate of whether your exisiing setup (short ram intake) or CAI is better,

Injen and AEM make specifically design CAI units which put the filter dawn behind the front bumper, most people like it

dont ask me my cars stock

hehehe

but a search for CAI or Injen will explain in more detail for you

[farkew]

thanks mate i will c what a few more people say and go from there

[notorious_ahmie]

currently me and dyno dave are testing out a new intake that he is makin, similar to the aem + injen design

we made a prototype and now a newer version is being made today hehe

put it this way i had the Js racing whale penis (short ram intake) and i put this new design on and got on extra 11 kw atw on a stock ecu...mind u its still a prototype

keep tuned later on ill post up graphs and sheets

n if u can wait itll be available soon once weve mastered the design :)

but wat ppl say is short ram is better for bottom end where as CAI is better for top end..get it tuned like me and enjoy both hehee!!

[Dylanamus]

A gain of 11kw atw? Man you must have had a cork in your old intake.

[notorious_ahmie]

it would need a big cork to fit the whale penis

[farkew]

LOL hahaha i got autronic in my car and a whole lot of other goodies and my tune is set up for top end power..... i am unsure of this expansion chamber idea really in theory the car is only gonna pull as much air as it needs.. my mate is a freak sheet metal worker makes manifols inlet/exhaust and i could get him to make me an expansion chamber vor run the pipe to the bottom and make a heat shild to go where it enters the front bar to eliminate all hot air from getting down there ... what do you think???

[notorious_ahmie]

not sure the the teggies but i know with my car i dont get heat there at all, but yeh makin a box or heat shield is always a good idea :)

so ur car is tuned?if u get the design tht ive got it will be good for top end but then again why do u just have top end tuning?

[Dylanamus]

I'm going to keep the stock airbox, replace the filter with a K&N (or something), remove the resonator and run a 4" hose from the bottom of the airbox to a hole I will cut out in the bumper. As much as I love the hissing sound of exposed pod filters at idle, and the mean roar when you thrash them, I think Honda had their finger on the money - the inhibitions in their design process were noise standards etc... I think improving upon an existing design is a safe bet.

[farkew]

dunno its the way its been done i make basically the most power in a b18 NA out of anyone i got 125atw with type r cams and other goodies a nice package i am gonna modify the intake more until i save up for quads.... :) :) :) hehe

[notorious_ahmie]

I'm going to keep the stock airbox, replace the filter with a K&N (or something), remove the resonator and run a 4" hose from the bottom of the airbox to a hole I will cut out in the bumper. As much as I love the hissing sound of exposed pod filters at idle, and the mean roar when you thrash them, I think Honda had their finger on the money - the inhibitions in their design process were noise standards etc... I think improving upon an existing design is a safe bet.


nah thats tru as well bro! i agree with u its a very good mod just moddin the stock airbox and running a hose through it!!very responsive down low !!

[notorious_ahmie]

dunno its the way its been done i make basically the most power in a b18 NA out of anyone i got 125atw with type r cams and other goodies a nice package i am gonna modify the intake more until i save up for quads.... :) :) :) hehe


sounds sweet bro !! gluck with it

[BlitZ]

if you can get me 11kw at the wheels over the stock box with K&N..

ill pay 1k for it. its seems too good to be true over a stock intake..

are u sure the whale penis is better than stock?

[notorious_ahmie]

haha wait for me to post up all the dyno graphs first then u can judge for urself la!

[Dylanamus]

Depends on what other mods he has on the engine. A stock engine doesn't have a huge demand for air, so the limitations of the stock airbox are not so great. Make the engine a air/fuel whore and the stock intake will be holding it back, so fixing the bottleneck will free up extra power that other mods are technically making. To provide an accurate measure of the custom CAI versus the stock intake, you should really dyno a completely stock engine with both setups and then dyno a modified engine with both CAIs. That will show 1. What raw gains the custom CAI provides without any other influences and; 2. How much it helps modified engines breath compared to stock CAI.

Post those dynos and I think the sheets will do the talking.

[notorious_ahmie]

my eng is near complete stock, just got an exhaust system on it

[Dylanamus]

Can't wait to see the before and afters :) I'll see if I can get mine dynod before and after too. Might have to befriend a mech with a slab or two hehe

[BlitZ]

interesting Whale penis dyno -- not bad.. gained 1kw.. but made soem constant power up top

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1393642...

[farkew]

cheers.. just out of interest do you think the expansion chamber does very much??? or just straight 3'' piping is the same??? difference of opinion or is there some sort of mathematics behind the expansion chamber design?

[BlitZ]

cheers.. just out of interest do you think the expansion chamber does very much??? or just straight 3'' piping is the same??? difference of opinion or is there some sort of mathematics behind the expansion chamber design?

does shit all ..

i jsut saw a dyno plot on hondatech..

one is stock VS real j's racing - J's racing gains 1kw

real j's penis VS fake penis - j's gains 1 kw.

ebay chamber is 1kw less than the fake penis..



almost all the same..
j racing penis
fake penis is almost equivalent to stock with hi flow filter
chemaber a bit shitter than the rest

[notorious_ahmie]

i wish i had seen the Js racing dyno b4 i bought mine

the only good thing about it is the noise

but then again the CAI i have atm is so farkin loud, ive neva heard anything like it hehe!!

[farkew]

well looks like i might fabricate my own CAI polished lOL i wipp post some pics when i am done and if i have enough interest i may make a kit to fit dc2's down to the front bar :) :) :)

[farkew]

and the brand will be (NOT A PENIS) lol

[EGB16A]

i wish i had seen the Js racing dyno b4 i bought mine

the only good thing about it is the noise

but then again the CAI i have atm is so farkin loud, ive neva heard anything like it hehe!!

got any photo's?

[notorious_ahmie]

still in testing bro, ill be there for the next few days gettin this all ready

keep an eye out for a new thread soon hehe!! i think its safe to say that its gonna be better than the injen and AEM designs and alot cheaper as well hehe

[EGB16A]

still in testing bro, ill be there for the next few days gettin this all ready

keep an eye out for a new thread soon hehe!! i think its safe to say that its gonna be better than the injen and AEM designs and alot cheaper as well hehe

awsome... whats it going to be called? lol

[notorious_ahmie]

i dont even know haha!!

[farkew]

are you doing a heat wrap around the pipe or you using aliminium which exherts the heat better????

[EGB16A]

i'd imagine anything wrapped would be best? Its something i'm considering at the moment.

just not sure if wraping it will keep the heat out, or keep it in? I'm guessing it will keep most of it out

[Dylanamus]

Heat deflecting surfaces won't keep heat in so much as prevent it from heating up further. Providing the air feed is cool, it would be more beneficial than harmful to wrap the pipe in heatproofing materials.

[farkew]

the only issue with wraping i dont know if it applys the same to this but wraping headers fatigues the steel.... maybe because the intake doesnt get as hot it wont matter as much

[EGB16A]

the only issue with wraping i dont know if it applys the same to this but wraping headers fatigues the steel.... maybe because the intake doesnt get as hot it wont matter as much

it defintaly won't matter with an intake. Its only headers that have the problem, cause they get bloody hot

[Dylanamus]

The exhaust emissions are forced through the extractors just after the fuel/air explodes, so the air moving through them will always be hotter than ambient temperatures. Insulation probably chokes them, preventing heat dissipation.

Perhaps if you were constantly feeding very hot air into the intake, the heat shielding would cause premature fatigue in the piping, which obviously isn't going to be the case. The ambient temperatures will be hotter than the air flowing through the CAI, so keeping the CAIs air in would be positive, rather than negative as in the case with the extractors.

[EGB16A]

The exhaust emissions are forced through the extractors just after the fuel/air explodes, so the air moving through them will always be hotter than ambient temperatures. Insulation probably chokes them, preventing heat dissipation.

Perhaps if you were constantly feeding very hot air into the intake, the heat shielding would cause premature fatigue in the piping, which obviously isn't going to be the case. The ambient temperatures will be hotter than the air flowing through the CAI, so keeping the CAIs air in would be positive, rather than negative as in the case with the extractors.

wraping headers has a couple of advantages, it keeps engine bay temp lower, and causes heat to be retained, hence causing gasses to flow faster. The down side is that the metal can crack, but this is off topic. we're talking about intakes here :thumbsup: :cool:

[farkew]

thats correct lol but no matter what the air passing through the intake makes friction so there is always going to be heat... but designs for an intake putting it right down in the front bar a yes or a no???

[Dylanamus]

Front bar intake... (http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f304/Dylanamus/foghole.jpg) My plans are to cut out the rectanglar shape in the recess and attach some metal mesh from the inside to prevent leaves etc getting in.

I was speaking to a fluid dynamics physician the other day about ribbed pipe versus non ribbed, and although most of the discussion went over my head, I remembered the conclusion - which was that ribbed has higher potential for air flow. So go the garden hose!

[EGB16A]

Front bar intake... (http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f304/Dylanamus/foghole.jpg) My plans are to cut out the rectanglar shape in the recess and attach some metal mesh from the inside to prevent leaves etc getting in.

I was speaking to a fluid dynamics physician the other day about ribbed pipe versus non ribbed, and although most of the discussion went over my head, I remembered the conclusion - which was that ribbed has higher potential for air flow. So go the garden hose!

I don't believe that ribbed material will flow better than a smooth material...

explain how

[Dylanamus]

I wish I could remember what the explination was, but I'm inclined to trust the opinion of a fluid dynamics physician with a mechanical engineering background. If I see him again, I'll ask for a less complicated explination.

[farkew]

from a basic principal you would want the pipe with as less bends as possible like an exhaust.. turbulance would be caused due to the ribbing and the distruption of the airflow its basic physics less resistance the quicker the flow

[Dylanamus]

Assuming subtle ribbing isn't as good as mandrel bent piping, I doubt the difference would be measurable in terms of power anyway. So why not DIY your cold air feed for $5-$10 instead of buying a $200 kit?

[bennjamin]

I don't believe that ribbed material will flow better than a smooth material...

explain how

my basic understanding is that a ribbed or "rough" surface will create a boundry of air on the walls , giving the free flowing air less resistance aimed into the intake...

someone expand on this !

[tinkerbell]

thats correct lol but no matter what the air passing through the intake makes friction so there is always going to be heat...

ummmm, not sure that you are quite right about the air creating heat, i dont think it is traveling fast enough in a normally aspirated car????

[BlitZ]

from a basic principal you would want the pipe with as less bends as possible like an exhaust.. turbulance would be caused due to the ribbing and the distruption of the airflow its basic physics less resistance the quicker the flow

not neccessarily..
bends are good if designed properly..
"why do u think honda spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on an intake with 100 bends" (robert)

nah really.. 180 degree bends create velocity..

[BlitZ]

my basic understanding is that a ribbed or "rough" surface will create a boundry of air on the walls , giving the free flowing air less resistance aimed into the intake...

someone expand on this !

is this why you aint meant to port the intake side of the engine?:thumbsup:

[Dylanamus]

It would be really handy to have fully understood,or have been paying full attention at the time, when I was explained how ribbing can improve airflow.
I understand how farkew rationalised his opinion and it does seem to be a logical explination on what he described as a "basic" level of physics, but clearly it gets far more complicated and technicalities render the immidiate logic of the unenlightened inaccurate... Maybe benjamin has his finger on the pulse...

[SKREMN]

In my car DA9 with my B20 full hybrid custom job
I extended my pipe by 8 inches and mad it sit behind the bumper
I could feel a dramiatic loss in power on all rev ranged when I made the pipe shorted and kept it in my engine bay the car went and felt alot better aswell as sounded alot deeper and stronger
I also got a 70mm throttle body and BBK manifold

shorter worked better for me

[bennjamin]

is this why you aint meant to port the intake side of the engine?:thumbsup:

Same theory :)

[iced]

steel is bad.
you'll have to get it powercoated if you want to do it properly, otherwise it will rust inside the tube.

way to go is stainless or aluminium.
you buy a bend for around $20
drop in some silicon hose, clamps and done

[newmski]

id say the 'ribbed = good' idea comes from similar principles as to how a golf balll flies so well.
when air flows through any type of duct (tube or whatever is your concern) its interaction with the walls creates turbulance flow due to friction and eddy currents (google it if u dont know).
now the idea of creating air pockets inside the intake tubing would if done correctly reduce the side to side turbulance of the flowing body of air.
i doubt however ur standard ribbed plastic tubing would enhance flow though. if u really wanted to get into it go design some different surfaces tubing and do some testing

[JasonGilholme]

I saw an article about this at a university expo once. They were demonstrating the turbulance/resistance of water passing underneath a surfboard.

They had two boards there. One was smooth along the bottom, and one had a surface much like that of a golfball.

The one with the golfball surface flowed better.


As for length of an intake. Do you reckon its the distance between the filter and the manifold??

If so, could you place an enclosed filter the desired length from the manifold and then continue the pipe down to the front bumper? That way you would get cold air intake as well as a descent gain because of the distance between the filter and the engine.

Just my thoughts. what do you gus reckon??

[h22a accord]

Just my thoughts. what do you gus reckon??


I reckon you clean up your sig before someone does it for you ;)

[BlitZ]

I reckon you clean up your sig before someone does it for you ;)

your completely off topic - Take it to PM

we live by the same rules.. :thumbsup:

someone should delete this post... :thumbdwn:
and mine
kaakkaakakakak

[farkew]

i dont understand how in the b20 making the intake pipe longer made it go worse as long as you do not move the airflow meter it should not disrupt the air fuel ratio as you are not moving the sensor any further down the pipe?? and as far as the person saying that about the heat.. rub your finger on a bench steel whatever for a consistant amount of time and it will eventually get hot.. if you wanted to get extreme HPC coat it..... i also had another theory making a bell mouth down the bottom and running a alaminium pipe up to the filters position then widening the pipe with sheet metal to form some sort of a non enclosed box so that it may also provide fresh air/cold air to the engine bay also to keep temps down slighlty in all areas aswell as giving an ample supply of air to the filter... just a theory

[SKREMN]

i have got my piping ceramic coated inside and out
the coating doesnt help that much it still gets way to hot
my intake temp is sits at 53 degrese when hot

[farkew]

how close did you get your intake to your headers when you took it down to the bar??? did you build a heat sheild to separate the 2 of them? there has to be a better way to vent the engine bay also a design needs to be done lol

[tinkerbell]

i dont understand how in the b20 making the intake pipe longer made it go worse as long as you do not move the airflow meter it should not disrupt the air fuel ratio as you are not moving the sensor any further down the pipe??

FYI - Honda's dont have "air flow meters", they have MAP sensors...

[Chris_F]

I'd say your best bet is to create a heat shield the best you can out of fiberglass or CF then direct their airflow into the enclosure created by the heatshield.

[farkew]

what is fiberglass like under heat of an engine bay??? i will attempt this if i get the right responses.... promising maybe