Teg LS with B18A vs B16A

[180sx]

hi guys, u might think this is a stupid post , but i really want to know which car will win at 0-400 ?

CAR . #1
1993 integra LS
trans:5speed manual with HD clutch
Engine:B18A ( 1.8 twin cam no vtec )
Mod: pod + spoon replica cat back
Rims:15 inch

CAR . #2
1989 integra LS
trans:5speed manual with standard clutch
Engine:B16A ( from a JDM EG SiR 1.6 twin cam VTEC )
Mod: pod + crappy cat back
Rims:14 inch

i know most of u guys will say CAR#2 will win ....... but that 1993 LS is not slow at all !!!! please don't think that is those LS which driven by laddies ... that 1993 LS had beaten a 1999 EK VTIR with pod + cat back !!!

i was going to drag with that LS today .. but by some reason, i didn't ...

so plz post your opinion :cool:

[kronjp]

too close to call, will come down to driver me thinks!
best comparo would be same driver in both cars. probably running on 14" wheels should give you a better chance. if you can get through the gears a little quicker you should pick him at the line but just.

[yourfather]

I think you should shut up about street racing, - cuz you never know who is watching. and leave the theoretical A vs B threads alone.

[gumbel]

i think the different is b16 got more rpm then b18a cause of the vtec, last time me and my friends ek vtir have a run, first and second gear is roughly the same but third gear b16a have more power,
i have to change gear at 5500-6000 rpm from second to third, while he's still in the second gear about 6200-7000 rpm and still pulling power.

teg ls got cold air intake but the rest stock, ek vtir got exhaust system upgrade include header , the rest stock as well.

we did 1/4 mile, my teg runs 15.7 and his ek vtir runs 15.4
:thumbsup:

[SKREMN]

very close run depends on the drivers

[Menzy]

like what everyone said, depends on driver hehehe :)

[FR33K]

its a 3rd gear race

[180sx]

I think you should shut up about street racing, - cuz you never know who is watching. and leave the theoretical A vs B threads alone.

wtf ? did i mention it's street racing ?? please read carefully next time !!!!!

i never do street racing ;)

[locote]

Too many factors to take into account.....

Line them up at your local track and tell us the result:)

[180sx]

Too many factors to take into account.....

Line them up at your local track and tell us the result:)

i will ;) as long as i fix my vtec hehe

[Spoon DA9R]

haha joey....i think u can just be a little..as in like...1 or 2 wheel space faster than Clints....his car is FAST......its nothing like a normal B18A....

but yeah...GO B16A!!! hahaah....gd luck....as i record...last time we hanged out....both his and mine were the same.....but again...my car is all stuffed up now....so never know....

[Spoon DA9R]

but i agree...in 3rd gear u should pull out....i only went to second gear with him coz my 3rd gear crunches if i shit at red line....*sigh*....

[180sx]

haha joey....i think u can just be a little..as in like...1 or 2 wheel space faster than Clints....his car is FAST......its nothing like a normal B18A....

but yeah...GO B16A!!! hahaah....gd luck....as i record...last time we hanged out....both his and mine were the same.....but again...my car is all stuffed up now....so never know....

yeah man , that's why i mention clint's DA is not like normal LS ..... and he beat my friend's EK VTIR :confused: that's what i worry about :p

[Spoon DA9R]

haha all i can say is....gd luck..hahaha...don't mishift hahaa..

[hui]

i have seen clint beat b16's on numerous occasions, should be a close match...

[Spoon DA9R]

clint...definitly a very gd drag driver

[ONV73C]

im sick of driving a torqueless b16 around in city traffic... :(


sob sob sob

[string]

im sick of driving a torqueless b16 around in city traffic... :(


sob sob sob
It's called gearing. At the wheels (assuming you actually have a B16 gearbox) you'll have just as much torque as an LS motor. Sure you will be revving higher, but everything has trade-offs.

I think the B16 will win unless he is asleep. Simply has more power at the ground at every single *speed* (except for first gear, which is of very similar ratio), which is all that matters in acceleration.

[FR33K]

lol b16a torque is 150nm
b18a is 164 from memory..

how are they the same........

[string]

lol b16a torque is 150nm
b18a is 164 from memory..

how are they the same........
They're not. I didn't say anything about engine torque.

[locote]

Just line the cars up at next track meet!!!!!

POST times and term speeds then it can be compared properly.

[ONV73C]

It's called gearing. At the wheels (assuming you actually have a B16 gearbox) you'll have just as much torque as an LS motor. Sure you will be revving higher, but everything has trade-offs.

is this guy serious? lol

[string]

is this guy serious? lol
Yes I am. Problem?

We'll take the OBD1 B18A1 just for kicks (about 10Nm more)...

B18A1: 174Nm

1st: 2424Nm
2nd: 1422Nm
3rd: 964Nm
4th: 716Nm
5th: 568Nm

B16A: 155Nm

In brackets is the relative comparasin to B18A wheel torque. 1st is less as I mentioned in previous post, due to all B-series trannies having very similar first gear ratios.

1st: 2203Nm (-9%) (After peak torque on the B18, this percentage gets very positive, very quickly)
2nd: 1436Nm (+1%)
3rd: 994Nm (+3%)
4th: 755Nm (+5%)
5th: 578Nm (+1%)

So , ONV73C, you will find that except for first gear (up until around 6000rpm), the B16A actually puts down MORE wheel torque.

Care to prove me wrong? "lol" to me indicates the implication that my comment is laughable, so please, speak up.

To relate this to the original question. Acceleration is dependant on power being produced at any given speed. At any given wheel RPM, the more wheel torque, the faster acceleration. So it can be given that the B16A will be faster in every gear except for 1st.

Now you might say, well wow, it will only accelerate 1%3%5%3% faster in each case. This is the bare minimum case, starting from 0 to the top of each of these gears.

Also, I have given peak torque numbers, and carried them across the entire rev range. If this were the case, the B16 would make 124kw and the B18 a massive 127kw at 7000rpm (I.e. the basis of LS/VTEC, holding 1.8litres of torque until a higher redline). I have adjusted for this in my next example however.

If I was to pick an arbitrary speed, say, 75km/h.
The B16A is around 6500rpm, producing 104kw at the engine.
The B18A is around 5500rpm, producing just under 100kw at the engine. Over 5% more power. Not bad.

As torque drops off on the B18A things get even more grim. Taking it up to peak power on the LS, 6300rpm or justunder 87km/h.

The B16A at the same speed is also near its peak power of 118kw, while the LS is still at around 104kw.

So, from VTEC on, we start at about 4% more wheel power, and increase to around 15% at redline. This is even worse on the LS in 3rd and 4th.

The only advantage the LS driver has, is more power at the ground in first gear (assuming we are doing a normal take off, not a redline clutch slip/drop) for a more powerful launch and first gear, but the B16 will get you in every other gear.

Note: It is not the gear ratios alone which are causing the "torque-less" B16A to be quicker. It is the combination of the gear ratios and a higher redline to suit, so that at any given speed, you have a similar torque to higher capcity motors.

Riddle me this... If I gave you a drive in each of two sample cars. Both weigh the same. One has a 2litre motor. Redlines at 8000rpm. Makes 200Nm of torque at every rpm. The other has a 4litre motor. Redlines at 4000rpm and makes 400Nm of torque at every rpm. Both gearboxes have the exact same ratios, except the 2litre has double the final drive. In the car with the 2litre, I modify the tacho so it shows half the actual RPM (i.e. 0->4000 instead of 8000).

If both engines are silent, could you tell me, just by driving them (in whichever fashion you please), which car has the 2litre "torqueless" motor?

[180sx]

Yes I am. Problem?

We'll take the OBD1 B18A1 just for kicks (about 10Nm more)...

B18A1: 174Nm

1st: 2424Nm
2nd: 1422Nm
3rd: 964Nm
4th: 716Nm
5th: 568Nm

B16A: 155Nm

In brackets is the relative comparasin to B18A wheel torque. 1st is less as I mentioned in previous post, due to all B-series trannies having very similar first gear ratios.

1st: 2203Nm (-9%)
2nd: 1436Nm (+1%)
3rd: 994Nm (+3%)
4th: 755Nm (+5%)
5th: 578Nm (+1%)

So , ONV73C, you will find that except for first gear, the B16A actually puts down MORE wheel torque.

Care to prove me wrong? "lol" to me indicates the implication that my comment is laughable, so please, speak up.

To relate this to the original question. Acceleration is dependant on power being produced at any given speed. At any given wheel RPM, the more wheel torque, the faster acceleration. So it can be given that the B16A will be faster in every gear except for 1st.

Now you might say, well wow, it will only accelerate 1%3%5%3% faster in each case. This is the bare minimum case, starting from 0 to the top of each of these gears.

Also, I have given peak torque numbers, and carried them across the entire rev range. If this were the case, the B16 would make 124kw and the B18 a massive 127kw at 7000rpm. I have adjusted for this in my next example however.

If I was to pick an arbitrary speed, say, 75km/h.
The B16A is around 6500rpm, producing 104kw at the engine.
The B18A is around 5500rpm, producing just under 100kw at the engine. Over 5% more power. Not bad.

As torque drops off on the B18A things get even more grim. Taking it up to peak power on the LS, 6300rpm or justunder 87km/h.

The B16A at the same speed is also near its peak power of 118kw, while the LS is still at around 104kw.

So, from VTEC on, we start at about 4% more wheel power, and increase to around 15% at redline. This is even worse on the LS in 3rd and 4th.

The only advantage the LS driver has, is more power at the ground in first gear (assuming we are doing a normal take off, not a redline clutch slip/drop) for a more powerful launch and first gear, but the B16 will get you in every other gear.

Note: It is not the gear ratios alone which are causing the "torque-less" B16A to be quicker. It is the combination of the gear ratios and a higher redline to suit, so that at any given speed, you have a similar torque to higher capcity motors.

Riddle me this... If I gave you a drive in each of two sample cars. Both weigh the same. One has a 2litre motor. Redlines at 8000rpm. Makes 200Nm of torque at every rpm. The other has a 4litre motor. Redlines at 4000rpm and makes 400Nm of torque at every rpm. Both gearboxes have the exact same ratios, except the 2litre has double the final drive. In the car with the 2litre, I modify the tacho so it shows half the actual RPM (i.e. 0->4000 instead of 8000).

If both engines are silent, could you tell me, just by driving them (in whichever fashion you please), which car has the 2litre "torqueless" motor?

jesus ..... u guys are so pro ...... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[string]

Could you replace your quoted text with "snip" or the like. I've edited a few sections to account for the dropping torque in the B18. I'd much prefer that someone reads my original post, as opposed to your out of date quote :D

[ONV73C]

Easy tiger...

i was expressing my frustration on 'city driving' with the b16.

Difference's being as quoted by you:
-9% in 1st
&
+1% in 2nd

These are peak power differences!!!!

A torque curve comparison would show how different they levels are (which i dont have and cbf searching for)

0 - 4000 rpm for 1st & 2nd gear in a b16a is very average... bumper to bumper traffic sucks.

[string]

Did you not read my post? They are WHEEL TORQUE differences, not power.

And they are even more valid at lower rpm values where we are not experiencing dropping off of torque.

You hardly need to search to find what a B16/B18 torque curve will look like 0-4000rpm.

Hint, horizontal lines at ~150Nm and ~170Nm respectively.

Edit: That was me going easy. I didn't feel the need to flame you as you are clearly don't understand what i'm saying, and are probably too ignorant to read it, and absorb.

[ONV73C]

Man U 1 - 0 Arsernal 30mins to go.. is much more interesting than this :p

[string]

Man U 1 - 0 Arsernal 30mins to go.. is much more interesting than this :p
Then your clearly debating with the wrong person ;)

[ON XTC]

prolly the 2nd car will win.
its a dohc vtec, while the other is not

its got pod filter and catty

also the 2nd car got smaller size rims, meaning its slightly lighter.

the 1st car can win but that really depends on the driver. but prolly 2nd car got better advantage.

[ONV73C]

disturbing :arrowu:

btw string, Man u won 2 - 0 :D

[FR33K]

string.. like ONV37C said.. we were talking about general day to day driving... not taking every gear to redline in the city... if both cars were doing about 50km in 2nd gear and both accelerated at the same time.. the b18 will gain about 10 car lengths before the b16 has any chance to catch up (bit of exaggeration but you get my drift)

[ginganggooly]

what string is getting at is correct.
the gearbox is a torque mutliplier, the b16a with a b16a transmission makes up for the lack of torque output at the motor by having appropriate gearing. it doesn't have the no fuss nature of driving a torquier motor with taller gearing, but it still gets along okay... and when you do get it on the boil, it's much more fun.

if torque was the holy grail everyone made it out to be, we'd all be driving diesels.

[FR33K]

again.. when racing yes its not a problem..
but you cant drive around in 2nd all day so you can accelerate fairly quickly when you need to

[ginganggooly]

again.. when racing yes its not a problem..
but you cant drive around in 2nd all day so you can accelerate fairly quickly when you need to

again, the gearing is such that it's (b16a) no more difficult to drive than the b18a- outside of low rpm in 1st gear anyway

[FR33K]

i disagree.. ive had both engines and the b18a is alot easier to drive..
anyway this really isnt getting anywhere so lets agree to disagree

[string]

string.. like ONV37C said.. we were talking about general day to day driving... not taking every gear to redline in the city... if both cars were doing about 50km in 2nd gear and both accelerated at the same time.. the b18 will gain about 10 car lengths before the b16 has any chance to catch up (bit of exaggeration but you get my drift)
Well you are simply wrong. The B18 would never catch up. As I showed you earlier; In second gear, the B16 has more torque at the wheels than the B18, therefore, at every speed, in second gear, it will have more power at the wheels, therefore will accelerate faster, no matter what roll you take.

Obviously there are some placebo effects going on in your head which makes you think that just because you have to rev-higher, that it means its gutless.

I'll say again in different words, if we were to change the tacho's on a B16 and B18 to 0->100% instead of an rpm value, you'd be hard-pressed to tell me which engine you were driving (if we were driving around daily).

[FR33K]

what do you mean the b18 would never catch up ?!?
I said the b18 would take off first and the b16 would have to catch up..

I am talking from experience and not whats on paper.. everyone knows that whats on paper is never the fact in real life

[string]

what do you mean the b18 would never catch up ?!?
I said the b18 would take off first and the b16 would have to catch up..

I am talking from experience and not whats on paper.. everyone knows that whats on paper is never the fact in real life
When I say the B18 would never catch up, I mean that the B16 would be faster from the word go. The B16 would take off first, as I have said for the 20th time now, it has MORE POWER at the wheels at 50km/h.

Your experience obviously the guy in the B16 was giving you a chance by not hitting the go button until 10 car lengths.

And yes, sometimes things on paper are what happens in real life. Gearing and torque multiplication are not hit and miss afairs. It's just a fact.

[FR33K]

man IVE had the B18 and now IVE GOT the b16..
IVE RACED B18's many times..

off the line they are fairly even up until approx 100km/hr until the b16 pulls away..

rolling start.. the b16 has to be at the right revs and revving really high to be able to keep up and pull away from the b18..

[string]

man IVE had the B18 and now IVE GOT the b16..
IVE RACED B18's many times..

you previously said AT ANY speed in any gear other then first.. the b16 would be faster.. not only 50km/hr

off the line they are fairly even up until approx 100km/hr until the b16 pulls away..

rolling start.. the b16 has to be at the right revs and revving really high to be able to keep up and pull away from the b18..
It will. You brought up 50km/h, so I just used that as a specific value.

Also, the B16 will be faster (probably won't pull ahead, but will be accelerating faster) past about 40km/h or so, as the torque on the B18 drops off. The longer first gear is what attributes to the B16 being behind until 100km/h. I've never whitnessed a 'good' race between the two, so I can't comment on when I believe that speed is, but i'll believe you and call it 100km/h (remember, just because it's 100km/h when the B16 passes, doesn't mean it wasn't 40km/h when the B16 started accelerating faster).

Yes, you've raced them many times and what? The B18 has won. Again, i'm talking where drivers aren't asleep, and their motors are functioning correctly and that the cars are relatively similar in weight etc...

Of course the B16 has to be at the right revs, thats the whole idea! Whats the point of racing from 50km/h if the B16 is in 3rd; It is obviously going to be at a higher rpm than the B18, but thats the ENTIRE IDEA of the engine.

The trade off for more power and faster acceleration at lower capacity, is higher rpm operation

[FR33K]

DC2R ON PAPER
Weight to Power Ratio 7.71 : 1 (kg/kW)

2000 WRX ON PAPER
Weight to Power Ratio 8.69 : 1 (kg/kW)

you tell me WHICH car is faster...

[FR33K]

lol your a funny guy
so according to your theory... (and our original argument) is that when both cars are in traffic and both are doing 30km/hr in 2nd gear .. and both accelerate.. the b16 will take off in front of the b18 (coz u said at any speed in any gear other then first)..

thats hillarious..

[string]

DC2R ON PAPER
Weight to Power Ratio 7.71 : 1 (kg/kW)

2000 WRX ON PAPER
Weight to Power Ratio 8.69 : 1 (kg/kW)

you tell me WHICH car is faster...
Faster at doing what? Reverse donuts?

To answer your question seriously, the DC2R if we don't take into account some crazy launch on the WRX. But, thats going a lot deeper than using your silly numbers.

There are a lot more to "paper" numbers than peak power to weight figures.

[string]

lol your a funny guy
so according to your theory... (and our original argument) is that when both cars are in traffic and both are doing 30km/hr in 2nd gear in traffic.. and both accelerate.. the b16 will take off in front of the b18 (coz u said at any speed in any gear other then first)..

thats hillarious..
What about "more power at the wheels at every speed", i.e. 30km/h in second, included, are you having difficulty understanding?

[FR33K]

what do u mean "if we dont take into account a crazy launch on the WRX"
what do you think the dc2r is gonna launch in 2nd or something..

[FR33K]

haha no u are having difficulty accepting reality..
its not all about power

b16's peak torque is at 7000rpm
b18's is somewhere in the 4000's i think

your failing to remember this.. and at those low speeds.. thats what counts

[string]

what do u mean "if we dont take into account a crazy launch on the WRX"
what do you think the dc2r is gonna launch in 2nd or something..
Ok, let's apply your logic to the original example.

The B18 has 24.5inch slicks on, and is able to clutch-drop from rev-limiter.

Of course now the B18 has a huge advantage.

On paper, of course we can actually compare the two.

WRX wins, how about that one. It simply has the advantage on the launch. 4 times as much tyre to grip, plus, the rear ones are there for even more.

No big launch, maybe a roll, or just a gentle start, the DC2R wins. More power at the wheels at every speed again (except for maybe first, where the WRX has a turbo spinning well before the DC2R hits 5-6000rpm).

[FR33K]

haha no u are having difficulty accepting reality..
its not all about power

b16's peak torque is at 7000rpm
b18's is somewhere in the 4000's i think

your failing to remember this.. and at those low speeds.. thats what counts
........

[string]

haha no u are having difficulty accepting reality..
its not all about power

b16's peak torque is at 7000rpm
b18's is somewhere in the 4000's i think

your failing to remember this.. and at those low speeds.. thats what counts
Yes it is all about power, go back to school.

B18 peak torque is at 5500.

This doesn't mean that from 0-4000rpm, either engine can't have 90% of it's peak torqe available..

Both engines will be at lower than peak torque, but either way you look at it, you'll still end up with the B16 having more torque at the wheels whatever way you look at it.

Especially when you take into account the fact that the B16 has VTEC. This means that the low cam only has to take power up to 5700rpm, as opposed to the B18's 6300rpm. So, the lower cam can be more suited to lower rpm operation, thus possibly causing the B16's lower rpm range to be at a higher relative torque to the upper than the B18 (speculation; if someone could post some dyno's that would be fantastic but they aren't really required).

[FR33K]

ive got some at home
im going back to work coz you're annoying
goodbye :)

[string]

It rather funny. You've brought nothing but "i'm right your wrong" *evidence* to the table, yet you are still claiming that I am wrong? You are either incredibly stupid, incredibly ignorant, or both.

To clear up your power isn't everthing thing. Note that throughout, I will be omitting any drivetrain lossses, wind resistances and what-not. These are negligible factors considering that we are talking about the same car.

Let's take a starting speed of 'u', and a final speed of 'v', mass of car as 'm'.

The ammount of energy required to get from speed 'u' to 'v' is:


1/2mv^2 - 1/2mu^2.
= m/2 (v^2 - u^2) = m/2 (v + u) (v - u)

Just the kinetic energy at 'v' minus at 'u'. Simple stuff.

Let's call 'P', the total ammount of power which an engine would produce if it went from rotating the wheels at 'u'm/s to 'v'm/s in one second. This is easy to calculate, you simply change the units along the bottom of a power graph from rpm to seconds, and select the appropriate scale to make the wanted region one second wide.

Note: The closer u and v get, the closer 'P' becomes the actual power output of the engine at that velocity.


'P'
------------------
m/2 (v + u) (v - u)

Now, a = dv / dt;

So,

a = P (v - u)
-----------------------
m / 2 (v + u) (v - u)

= 2 P
-----
m (v + u)

Now, since we are looking for instantaneous acceleration, lets bring, u and v together to the one point. This means that P becomes the ammount of energy the engine produces as it goes from u to v in one second. Since they are the same speed, it is the ammount of power the enigne produces at that point. Which, you can get by just plugging it into any power graph.


let u = v;

a = 2 P
----
2v m

a = P
-----
v m

There you have it. Acceleration is proportional to power all else equal.

[FR33K]

It rather funny. You've brought nothing but "i'm right your wrong" *evidence* to the table, yet you are still claiming that I am wrong? You are either incredibly stupid, incredibly ignorant, or both.


Could say the same about you..

i really dont care if you think you are Einstein

wake up to reality

[dc2dc2dc2]

wth y0....is this a maths forum...quit ur bitchin' guys....chillax y0 !

[string]

Could say the same about you..

i really dont care if you think you are Einstein

wake up to reality
Are you serious? That level of maths should be considered common sense before you even use the words power or torque. It's not my fault you don't know what they mean, yet still have a throbbing ambition to twist things to make yourself appear correct. I've presented ideas, you've contested with nothing but "no your wrong". Could say the same about me? I thought "i know you are, i said you are..." antics went out in primary school?

Your welcome to believe whatever you want. I've tried to educate you; But you clearly do not want to learn something today.

Your "real world experience" will be welcomed when you present me some "real world" evidence to counter my claims. I.e.videos of acceleration from the same speed in two of the same (i'll take similar however) car each with a B16/B18.

Until then, GG son.

[FR33K]

haha u know what.. i will do that JUST for you..

"I thought "i know you are, i said you are..." antics went out in primary school?"

YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING !!!

your head is too far in your calculator to think that adding a few letters and numbers together means everything.

[string]

haha u know what.. i will do that JUST for you..

"I thought "i know you are, i said you are..." antics went out in primary school?"

YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING !!!

your head is too far in your calculator to think that adding a few letters and numbers together means everything.
Hah. The only reason the numbers came out was because I knew you would be too much of a moron to understand if I said it in words like I would a normal person. Though, you ended up being even stupider than I thought.

I look forward to these videos. Ultimately, data logs would be better, so I can see that your only on 80%throttle on the B16.

[FR33K]

Im not gonna bother anymore..

anyone with an LS want to nominate themselves for this experiment..

[dc2dc2dc2]

request for this thread to be closed

*CLOSED*

[FR33K]

thanks mod but i dont see why it needs to be closed :)
its a fair debate of paper (or calculator) vs reality

[LO_N_SXC]

WOW! @ all that ^^^

from experience I can tell you all that a B18B vs B16A is close, like Fr33k said 3rd gear race I have run against Spoon DA9R who owns a DA9 just like mine but lighter coz he's gutted out all his interior trim and on take off its very close but once he's on Vtec in 3rd gear and above he pulls away.

so ok now you have your answer, pack up your words, go home and call it a day!

[FR33K]

yer

but our main arguement is low speed acceleration :)

[ONV73C]

Apart from the mathematical equations, the funniest part of this thread is when the dc2r beats the wrx.

[FR33K]

string i believe this is what you requested.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/FR33K/b16a_vs_b18a.gif

as you can see the b18a is constantly making more power and torque all the way up to 6500rpm... where the b16a takes over

so tell me HOW you think at low rpms in any gear at any speed.. the b16a will always accelerate quicker..

yes i know you're gonna say the b16a is gonna be revving higher and making more power at the same speed.. and you're gonna go back to your physics calculation.. but you obviously haven't driven both.. especially side by side

[string]

Haha.. So you realise that your wrong, but your going to claim your right because you've driven a magical B18 which is faster. Or, your 'B16' really had an LS gearbox on it and your too blind to realise.

Jackass. Get a clue.

ONV73C: Yes? I must have missed the funny? Something to add? You sound about as braindead as the rest of the idiots that have posted in this thread so far.

[Spoon DA9R]

one thing u guys gotta remember also....b16a have a sorta gear ratio....design to help us with better acceleration coz of low in torque....as some of u mite find...on 1.8L u guys running on 3000rpm when u r doing 100k/hr, but for me or all other 1.6 we'll be 3500rpm appx when doing 100....so its a really close call...

[string]

one thing u guys gotta remember also....b16a have a sorta gear ratio....design to help us with better acceleration coz of low in torque....as some of u mite find...on 1.8L u guys running on 3000rpm when u r doing 100k/hr, but for me or all other 1.6 we'll be 3500rpm appx when doing 100....so its a really close call...
Well it's fair that you didnt read the past few pages of crap, but thats exactally what I have been trying to beat into his brain. I'm glad there is one person that at least knows a tiny bit about why the B16 can be just as quick even low down.

[Spoon DA9R]

pround i made myself useful....hahaha....provide a gd enough launch....b16 and b18 are pretty much the same.....but again..depends on the driver...

[FR33K]

ok so now YOU know what tranny IVE got in MY car...

i never knew an S1 tranny is for an LS..

but thanks anyway

[FR33K]

pround i made myself useful....hahaha....provide a gd enough launch....b16 and b18 are pretty much the same.....but again..depends on the driver...

woahhhh go back and read !!! we are not talking about racing off the line !!! i know the b16 is quicker !!

we are talking about low speed acceleration

[Spoon DA9R]

haha sorry...i was a bit lazy..too many post calm down freek...man.....btw did alex tell u how he is doing the side skirt like u did?

[ONV73C]

ONV73C: Yes? I must have missed the funny?


Time to stop playing the ps2 string and actually drive these cars, it's quite clear you haven't.

[FR33K]

why the B16 can be just as quick even low down.

why do you say "can be" rather than "is" quicker ?
does that mean you're keeping your options open incase your physics equation fails

[sockai]

i've just recently had a '93 da6 halfcut (b16a2 170ps) dropped into my car, with the ys1 gearbox (4.4 fd), and im finding it a lot more fun to drive than the b18a. the engine response is crazy, and it still pulls okay from low down. because of the final drive im finding im driving around in 5th when im usually in first though, damn short gears. but yeah, i've had a couple of runs with b18a's and i've found that the b16a seems to pull away quite nicely! (except for a certain black one from the perth ozhonda cruise)

[FR33K]

sockai.. did u have any runs .. say doing 20km/hr rolling start in 2nd
or a 50km/hr rolling start in 3rd ?

PS: you also have more power and better tranny

[majic777]

hey string i understand exactly what you're saying, coz i used to think the same thing... but one thing you're forgetting is that if you lower the gear ratio for say 2nd gear in the b16 box, to make it rev a little higher... that gear ratio decrease is completely linear.... now look at the dyno graph... see how as the revs increase for both the b16 and the b18, their power increase is not linear at all? like theres some wobbles in their lines? its believeable that at some speeds in a certain gear the b16 would be putting down more wheel torque, but at a lot of others, it wouldn't, especially in the 3500rpm - 5500rpm range.. get me?

[Spoon DA9R]

wah..so much tension here....

[string]

hey string i understand exactly what you're saying, coz i used to think the same thing... but one thing you're forgetting is that if you lower the gear ratio for say 2nd gear in the b16 box, to make it rev a little higher... that gear ratio decrease is completely linear.... now look at the dyno graph... see how as the revs increase for both the b16 and the b18, their power increase is not linear at all? like theres some wobbles in their lines? its believeable that at some speeds in a certain gear the b16 would be putting down more wheel torque, but at a lot of others, it wouldn't, especially in the 3500rpm - 5500rpm range.. get me?
Eh? So only the B16 has wobbles now, and only in the negative direction?

FR33K. Please interpret "can be" as "will be". Spanks

He only has 10hp more. Considering that the the B16 has 20hp more than the B18 in the first place, maybe we can say that a 'normal' b16 would only pull away at 2/3 the speed. Haha

Better Tranny? Better at what?

[majic777]

nar man im serious look at the wobbles... the b16 tends to curve down in that range... and the b18 curves up... if they were perfectly exactly the same % of power difference at any rpm... your story would be 100% perfect!

[FR33K]

lets not argue anymore.. string knows everything about integras, and b16s, and b18s.... especially 93 XSi's

[sockai]

hmmm...i haven't tried from that low from 2nd, i've run from 20km/h in 1st. need to stay near ye old 5800rpm change over point! thats where the fun is at.

[LO_N_SXC]

I havent read from the begning but this seems ta have gonne a bit too far! arguing over engines! lol the way I see it is one may be faster than the other but at the end of the day there is always that someone who is faster! B18c or K20A in an LS is very rare and yes very expensive, B16 in an LS tru it feels better than the B18A or B18B (which I have) turn any of these into Turbo aplication then its a totally different ball game and can all be real quick machines.

I get the feeling that all this is just goign in circles and been covered many times, I suggest take it to the track, do a few 0-100 runs, 1/4 mile and a few dyno runs then compare the difference, thats if you can really be bothered to prove your point and can be bothered wasting your time.

I reckon it wont take long for one of you guys to crack and say something un called for so dont be surprised once this thread gets Closed!

So in other wrods..... GET OVER IT!

[FR33K]

lol your still not gettin the point
we are not arguing over which car is faster down the 0-100 or 1/4 mile..
so your post was irrelevant :)

PS: its not a my engine is better then your engine arguement either

[LO_N_SXC]

andrew hence "I havent read from the begining" you all need to read this oh and it should also be a sticky in OH for engine specs etc etc http://www.clubcivic.com/board/engine-codes.php Oh and this! http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/b16a/

[Spoon DA9R]

get over it guys....enough...

[locote]

LOL!!!!!!!
lets get the cars to the track!!!!
and compare slips then we will c at which point the b16 kicks the b18s arse!!!
Your all forgeting that the B16a was put in civics with a particular letter at the end of the model number "R", been one of Hondas performance motors for the civic.

B18B came in a GSi teg, been more of a cruising vehicle( not performance minded).

B18A/B has a lower comp ratio, cyl head does not flow aswell, soft cam profile, no vtec, crap intake manifold, gear ratios. list goes on.

Even all that out, then compare the difference.

[Spoon DA9R]

yeah yeah....asian club race...30th April..wanna register? let me know