SOS --> got no brakes :(

[VT3C]

I have EG5 hatch, just swapped over the front rotors, calipers and knuckles from an EK4. After installing the rotors etc I re-installed the original EG5 brakelines (EK4 were too short) and bled the two front brakelines as per Haynes manual spec.

My original rotors were worn well below the minimum reccomended rotor thickness and my car itself is headding towards 220,000kms and as for as long as i have owned the car (~100,000kms), the brake fluid has not been changed. When initially bleeding the brakelines I flushed out the old oil and used new Honda Brake Fluid.

Went for a drive and everything operational but pedal was a bit mushy and braking not very impressive - obviously worse than before however brakes DID work.

Then checked everything and re-bled the brakes - assumed that there was still air in the lines. still mushy.. went and RE-did the bleeding process as per 4-wheel rotation (Right Rear, Left Front, Left Rear, Left Front) and pedal was STILL mushy if not even worse than before with practically ZERO pedal pressure but still had resistance, but when turned engine on and booster kicks in the pedal was limp. Repeated the 4-wheel process another 2 times.

Re-Did the 4-wheel bleeding process another 3-4 times round the car and it felt like the pedal was building resistance with the car off but when i turned on the motor, the brake pedal was completely limp and has absolutely no resistance etc.

so now I have no car and am stranded and need some advice please y'all ?

[r`Geno]

In my opinion it's your brake bleeding process (master cylinder should be fine as I presume it worked before you changed anything).

Begin with the bleeder which is farthest from the master cylinder: typically, the left rear then move onto to the right rear.

Brakes don't work with air in the lines. You will simply compress the air and the pads won't move against the discs.)

[VT3C]

am not saying my bleeding process is wrong but I did do it strictly according to the manual.. perhaps there is some trick or technique to honda brakes that is not in the 'Generic' Haynes Manual.

there are NO air bubbles comming out of any brakelines any more... not since about 4 bleeds ago ;)

When I bought the fluid from Honda the service bloke said that sometimes when brakefluid is OLD like that and then is flushed, the seals in the Master Cyllinder can let go as the old crud and grime was maintaining a solid seal.. then you'd need to replace the Master Cyllinder. which i aint too keen on becasue of the bench-priming process involved not to mention the expense of a new master cyllinder. I didnt mention this earlier because I wanted to see what you guys said first in-case he was just trying to sell me a master cyllinder ;)

as you said, they were working fine before, so unless the master cyllinder didnt like the new fresh brake fluid, it could be my bleeding process. am trying to search for any info on bleeding EG's now but not having much luck :(

[VT3C]

hrm actually the Manual is for LHD cars and the Master cyllinder would be on the opposite side.. so I will try again starting with the left rear, right front, right rear then left front ?

[[T][L]]

when your bleeding the brakes make sure that the master cylinder is always full..dont let it go nearly empty

[BlitZ]

....
A few isues to consider, i dont know much about your car..

Is your master cycliner large enough to cater for the EK4 brakes?
Brake booster the same size?
has anyone had similiar issues?
brake pad type ? (did u get new ones, or 2nd ones with the brake purchase)

............................
you also cant elimate the master cycliner to be in good working order.. As the foot brake fluid pumping techniqe, is known to be able to pop seals in master cycliners..

[Benson]

Blitz could be right? mayb the master cylinder is not big enuff to push the bigger pistons...

But Ek4 brakes aint htat big newayz... so i dont think that could be the problem....

i used DC2 brake on my EG4 and it was alright.. stock MC n booster

[ECU-MAN]

could be your master cylinder

bleeding brakes can trigger symptoms on a master cylinder with worn pistons

[BlitZ]

Blitz could be right? mayb the master cylinder is not big enuff to push the bigger pistons...

But Ek4 brakes aint htat big newayz... so i dont think that could be the problem....

i used DC2 brake on my EG4 and it was alright.. stock MC n booster

i cant be right if your beastie EG runs fine wiht the setup! hehehe.

[r`Geno]

...it could be my bleeding process. am trying to search for any info on bleeding EG's now but not having much luck :(

Here you go: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11867

[VT3C]

you also cant elimate the master cycliner to be in good working order.. As the foot brake fluid pumping techniqe, is known to be able to pop seals in master cycliners..

just been goin nuts on Google and looks like that could be the problem.

the gunk causes grooves in the piston within the MC and then when u flush it away the seal can rub on the exposed un-worn plasic and damage the seal or simply allow fluid to pass through.. plus when bleeding the first few 4-5 times was pushing pedal to the floor which may cause the MC's piston to travel further than usual and with the crud removed, becomes exposed to sharp surfaces and can damage the seals........

I will try to bleed the system again in the morning with the order:
Left Rear
Right Rear,
Left Front,
Right Front

Also I did all bleeding with the cap on the Master Cyllinder ON and have seen it somewhere that it should be OFF ?? the manual doesnt specify.

But Like I said before I dont think there are any bubbles in the lines.. even if I did it in random order of bleeding, there should still be bubbles if air in the system ?

[ECU-MAN]

cap off

[VT3C]

the Brakes arent THAT much bigger and are still only single piston however the piston is slightly larger than the old brakes. The EG5 has 4-wheel discs so MC should be fine in terms of size. I dont think the EK4 MC is any larger.

The brakes after first bleed session DID work, but was mushy.. I wanted FIRM pedal or no point.. and the braking performance wasnt as good as before.

so I think must be either my bleed method or the seals in the MC are gone..?

[VT3C]

well.. just went round and bled the brakes in the order - left rear, right rear, left front, right front... STILL absolutely no pedal pressure when you turn motor on, and in the whole process there was only (literally) 4-5 air bubbles that came out.

HAD the brake fluid resevoir cap OFF during the whole process andI ensured that the master cyllinder did not go bleow it's max level.


so looks like i'm up for a new Master cyllinder :(

anyone have any info on how to bench-bleed the master cyllinder prior to installation ?

[Weq]

let us know how u go. are u loosing brake fluid at all?

Im worried mine is gonna go the same way.

[ECU-MAN]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34893&highlight=master

[VT3C]

got new NISSIN Master Cyllinder from HONDA..

I think I fairly succesfully pre-bled/primed the master cyllinder piston before installation.

Installed New Master Cyllinder and then did a brake bleed sequence and checked pedal feel.. better but stil la bit mushy however WOULD NOT go to the floor.

Turned on motor and pedal went fairly mushy but WOULD NOT hit the floor.

did 2 more bleed sequences and pedal was slightly better and pedal still not to the floor. Turned on motor and still afairly mushy feel andpedal travel was further than before i fitted the new brakes.

Tested in driveway and it actually had clamping power.. went for test drive on my 'test circuit' and gave her a few slow and medium brake 'tests' before I tried a few harder braking tests from ~70km/hr. Then proceeded to some lock up tests on a secluded road and it was pretty good and would lock the front right wheel under hard pedal pressure.

Tried to put some heat in the brakes and see how they went - the pedal went a little bit more spongy but stil lwouldnt hit the floor and braking was still OK.

so basically at this stage it's 'safe' for driving to the shop etc but I am still not happy and suspect my bleeding method is sub-standard. Was doing it on my won using a big stick propped onto the brake pedal and wedged into the driver's seat then sliding the seat forward.. 'MacGyver-spec' hahaha.

[type_r_118]

just put ur feet on the road fred flinstone style and put bed sheets out the window..who the hell needs brakes

[ECU-MAN]

get some one to help you dude
lol

do it right, you really need to close the nipple when you press the pedal down.

[VT3C]

let us know how u go. are u loosing brake fluid at all?.

Hrm dont think so.. not leaking from any calipers or lines that I can see, no puddles of fluid on the ground either.. that's why I figure must still be some air in the system but at least I can dive her again now.. no takk for me though :(

[VT3C]

no comment

[VT3C]

there was a weird scraping noise comming from the front left when turning and over bumps.. so Jacked her up again and took the wheel off.. tightened up the steering rod nut some more so the tapered bolt went into it's hole a bit better and also tightened the U-saddle for the bottom of the shocks.

Thee was movement (1-2mm) in the front lower A-Arm bushing where it bolts to the subframe which may have been causing some of the noise or at least movement contributing to stress on other parts. I tightened it a little and lubricated the bushing.

that Got rid of noise and any vibration that was there before.

Today took her in to have front wheel alignment - the technician said it had 12mm of toe-OUT and it was now fixed to have standard toe-in. Steering feels a little strange but better - however that a-arm bushing prom creates some unwanted movemnt. I will look into replacing all lower arm bushings ASAP.

booked in for professional brake bleed this arvo..