Jerking CVT

[lokets]

Hi guys. I have a Jazz 1.3 CVT, only mod is voltage stabilizer & grounding wires. Last week first detected "jerking" or "bunny hop" while travelling at low speed (around 50 kph). And it almost always happens at about 1500 rpm. Previously this does not happen.

Car is at 86,000 km and is regularly serviced. Just did major service, replacing all CVT fluid with genuine Honda ZTF-1 (or something). Unfortunately car got out of warranty 1 month+ ago and is no longer under warranty. There were no major problems with the car otherwise.

I am trying to first understand the problem and find if anyone had some experience in encountering and/or fixing this before going to Honda to get slaughtered (wallet-wise).

1. The jerking happens regardless of whether I put into "D" or "S" speed - appears to be driving mode independent. Did not try with "L" speed but again I don't drive in that mode.

2. It only happens when car is moving. In other words, when stationery, I ramp engine up to 1500 rpm, and no jerking as it is not moving (of course). But it proves perhaps it has nothing to do with fuel feed, fuel filter, spark plugs, things that are not transmission related.

3. I am using cheap petrol (due to high cost) - 91 RON. I've noted some suggested using a better grade fuel or another shop, which I am going to try later, say with 95 RON or 98 RON, ouch... but better to know the results before going to Honda.

I'm also going to put in injector cleaners later but again, I think problem is transmission computer control related, not really engine.

4. I tried the reset ECU, recalibrate CVT suggestions posted in various places in the forum but found the jerking symptoms remain. But I shall continue to try the procedure at other times - perhaps I did it wrong.

5. I've disconnected all grounding wires and disconnected the voltage stabilizer, still jerking continues. OK, nothing to do with the mod's.

6. I noticed that while engine is cold, the jerking is less noticeable and vice-versa. It feels like some sensors got messed and gives false reading perhaps when temperature rises.

7. Once enigne revs beyound 1500 rpm, jerking disappears - but it is no guarantee as beyond that, car is moving so fast that perhaps due to sheer momentum the jerkiness is not evident.

8. I know there's a sticker on the + battery terminal that says if you disconnect the power, send car to Honda to reset the CVT.

I wonder if some time in the past weeks, there is a power lost (due to my messing with the ground wires? but I work carefully to avoid lossing battery power in the first place). Due to this short lost of power, the CVT computer gets stupid and when it is doing 1500 rpm, it actually moves the CVT back & forth as if between 2 preset positions - hence causing the jerking. In which case, if my self-tried method to reset the CVT does not work, the only way is to get Honda to do it, at a cost (in my case).

Does any one else (I'm sure there are) encountered this and what did you do to resolve it?

The problem is irritating but is still bearable, as long as you keep pumping the car beyond 1500 rpm and avoid hoving at that range for too long.

While I'm impressed with the CVT, fuel efficiency and belt durability, this CVT computer thing reliability is not quite up to match - 1/2 piece of rubbish!!

Thanks for any feedback and reading my frustration. It feels... just slightly better... :confused:

[Dreams]

wow so long!. the CVT need reseting. its a proven problem after u disconect the battery.

[MiSloVic]

jerking during light throttle? does it jerk if during WOT?
sounds like faulty EGR valve, if the CVT reset does not work.

[ahcash]

sure they replace the CVT fluid? Is the dealer thrustworty?

[mcyj]

Hey,

I've got the EXACT same problem! Glad I'm not alone :p
I've got the VTi-S CVT and also get jerkiness at about 1500rpm. Lower or higher revs, I don't feel it. I bought mine used, but didn't experience this at first.. only after about 2+ months since i bought it i started feeling it. The battery was never disconnected or anything... it just started happening.

It was time for a full service, so I requested they change the transmission fluid while they were at it (thinking that was the problem). Well, after the full service, the car felt noticably smoother, but still felt the jerkyiness at 1500rpm, tho it didn't feel as bad as before.

I'm interested to hear what you find out about this problem and how to resolve it.

PS: I've been using Shell Optimax since the service, rather than 91RON i was using previously, but still feel the jerkiness.

[lokets]

jerking during light throttle? does it jerk if during WOT?
sounds like faulty EGR valve, if the CVT reset does not work.

No, the jerking does not happen during WOT. It does not happen when you start the car from rest but only happens when I'm cruising at low speed/RPM - say around 60 kph & 1500 RPM. If I left go of the accelerator, the car slows below 1500 RPM, and now if I just touch the accelerator lightly to edge it slowly back to 1500 RPM, the jerking comes in - like the CVT cannot decide to engage or not.

At much higher RPM, I did not notice anything as things are also moving faster and noisier etc. However, the jerking more or less goes away at higher speed.

From another forum member (ACE888), he said his dealer replaced the EGR valve and appears to solve the problem. I may try that first seeing that EGR replacement is quite easy.

Some of you may have looked at the very large download of online Jazz repair manual. Inside you will find a straight forward procedure to replace the EGR valve. Besides this, I believe the manual calls this jerking condition a judder - and under the section of CVT symptoms & solutions, it says the judder can be caused by any of these:

Start clutch defective
ATF deteriorated
Valve body assembly defective
Control valve body assembly defective
Drive and driven pulley speed sensors defective
CVT speed sensor defective
PCM defective
Start clutch control system memory in PCM defective

The online manual also says for the above possibility, I can:

1. Check the [D] indicator indication, and check for loose solenoid connectors.
2. Check ATF level and check ATF cooler lines for leakage and loose connections. If necessary, flush ATF cooler lines.
3. Calibrate start clutch control system.

Now, I cannot diagnose some of the above potential issues. I can only confirm that ATF is likely OK as I just got the ATF replaced about 1.5 months ago, and did a recent check of ATF fluid - its level is OK.

The only other thing I've yet to try (according to the more detail procedure in the manual) is to: (1) reset the ECU/PCM, (2) calibrate the CVT - either static or not moving, and/or moving. I thought I tried that yesterday night but the jerking continues. But this time, I'm going to rip out the -ve battery terminal and ensure the ECU/PCM memory is really cleared. Then calibrate CVT again - this time not driving and using a wire to short what they called the SCS signal - seems to be an indicator to the computer that "hey, I want you to calibrate".

If the above still fails, I can ask Honda for price of EGR valve and if the price is reasonable, I may go for that first. If that still does not work, I will send the Jazz back to service center & get my neck chopped.

Incidentally, since someone else here says he is using good grade Optimex petrol, I do not think this jerking is caused by poor fuel.

Also, I remember the day this jerking came about - I was driving to office and got stuck on the expressway for 1.75 hours - driving very slow traffic, and in between start/stop I actually put the CVT from "D" to "N" and back again. This went on and on, and the next day, I noticed the jerking. So, this sort of slow traffic and/or my habit may have killed something - and I've got strong suspicion that it maybe the *BIG* start clutch failure.

If I can replace the start clutch I will be a Honda Jazz mechanic - haha, but not brave enough to do it. The procedure I believe is in the online manual.

Anyway, I will give the above a go first and let you know the outcome - seeing that a number of people have Jazz's with the same symptoms as me does surprice me. Why not we put together a how-to section on this apparently pretty common failure.

[lokets]

sure they replace the CVT fluid? Is the dealer thrustworty?

Yes, I'm sure the previous service center (not Honda) I went to did replace the CVT ATF fluid. Reason is that I personally bought the ATF bottles to them and asked them to use this. And after the work is done, I do notice the gear change is much, much smoother, and the ATF dip stick shows a clean, nice reddish fluid filled up to the correct level.

So, you are right - degraded ATF fluid or clogging of the ATF strainer (as explained in the big Jazz online manual) can cause jerking. In my case I do not think it applies.

The service centre is OK - so-so but not entirely irresponsibile (maybe slightly - bugger!).

[lokets]

wow so long!. the CVT need reseting. its a proven problem after u disconect the battery.

Sorry for the long sotry - I was upset, mainly also because this Jazz gives me headache only 1 month after I decided not to extend the warranty. ARGH...

Well, yes, CVT does need reset - but as I explained I don't think I disconnected the battery - the clock time is still running OK (unless there is a time delay before the clock itself losses its setting...hmmm..).

Anyway, this time round, to reset the CVT, I AM going to rip out the battery terminals - no choice if I'm going to try this & that before sending the car back to Honda.

[ahcash]

lokets, looks like you are pretty much covered... my advise to you will be to leave it with them to sort out the problem instead of asking them to change EGR valve, etc etc.. Off course, depending on the price..

Have to change your driving habit.. I was told by a Pro that never never put D to N and back and forth.. doing so will put extra stress on the tranny components due to pressure..

[UW15HN]

i had the same problem

i took it to honda and paid for labour which was $1000

they fixed the problem as it was under warranty

i think thats the only way to fix it?

[lokets]

lokets, looks like you are pretty much covered... my advise to you will be to leave it with them to sort out the problem instead of asking them to change EGR valve, etc etc.. Off course, depending on the price..

Have to change your driving habit.. I was told by a Pro that never never put D to N and back and forth.. doing so will put extra stress on the tranny components due to pressure..

Thanks. I will try 1 more CVT calibration and if it still does not fix anything - preliminary test indicates it does not, then it's end-game and back to Honda. I start to think it is not a EGR problem.

[lokets]

i had the same problem

i took it to honda and paid for labour which was $1000

they fixed the problem as it was under warranty

i think thats the only way to fix it?

Thanks for info.

What exactly did they fix?
And the labour alone is A$1000?!?! And that is under warranty??
And you still have to pay for labour?

I wonder how much it would cost for BOTH labour and parts - don't even want to think anymore. Perhaps I should have bought a manual Jazz.

[UW15HN]

it had to do with the transmission as on the reciept they subcontracted the local transmission shop

labour alone was $1000 and honda paid for the parts as it was under warranty

they said its common problem for the cvt transmission..

id say just go get it over and done with at honda

they know basically what the problem is instead of wasting time elsewhere

hope it helps

thanks

[lokets]

I just booked my car in for fixing and the service chap told me not to use Woolsworth petrol (the regular unleaded) as it is not good for Honda cars - instead he recommends Shell or BP.

He said the problem could be real - not petrol related but first he suggested switching to a better brand and put in Premium unlead to clean things up abit first.

He also said it could be due to EGR but first thing is to eliminate poor quality petrol as the cause.

OK, I have to do as he said (drive around for a while) because the tank now is filled to the brim with Woolie's 91 RON. Then 2 weeks later, the car will get looked into. Oh well...

[lokets]

Hi guys. Just update on my jerking Jazz. In my last story, the Honda service guy asked me to use BP or Shell petrol instead of Woolworths. I ran my last tank to the end, jerking all the way, and decided to switch to Shell Optimax (RON 98). I flooded 1/2 of the tank with this stuff & drove the car, initially with jerkiness still present. The next day, the jerkiness seemed to have disappeared. And the next day, it disappeared completely. What?!?!

This is an interesting turn of event. Whoever else is experiencing this problem, you can also try switching fuel. According to the Honda source, since I've been using "crap" Woolie's lowest grade unleaded (RON 91) - for about 1.5 years now, the damage maybe so bad that I will need some time using better fuel to clear away the rubbish.

I will also try switching back to this 91 RON from Woolies just to reconfirm that the jerkiness is related to this brand of fuel. Besides, I will try Caltex/Woolie's 95 RON Vortex to compare what its effect is - as I can still get some 4 cents/L discount from the many fuel coupons I am having.

My suspicion is this: the Woolies' 91 RON (regular unleaded) is really poor, as compared to say Shell's base regular unleaded. The Honda chap claimed Woolie buys crap petrol from elsewhere & sell it cheap, and despite whatever they say, it is not good enough for a Honda - as he said for Honda cars, it is more "involved" (his word).

I am starting to believe him now since I did this test and found out the hard way. Hurray... but ouch to wallet, but not as bad as replacing start clutch deep down in the CVT.

Still this CVT jerkiness is giving me nightmare and a constant cloud over my head (worry) that besides just fuel, I maybe in line for some trouble in the future with other CVT electronic/mechanical failure, costing me alot more dough. So, it maybe time to switch to a 1.5 VTi manual instead, and the new Thailand built models (available in OZ) is quite cool with fancy little improvements.

Nevertheless, I will send the car for servicing 2 weeks later and request Honda dealer check the car through (check the computer error code, blabla) and optionally, consider replacing the EGR, which someone said earlier is another culprit for jerkiness - well, the EGR is considerably cheaper than CVT start clutch service, so I will consider it seriously.

[lokets]

A correction to my above post on the jerkiness disappearing with Shell Optimax (98 RON) petrol in place of Woolie's "cheap" regular unleaded (91 RON). After traveling for a while - and the tank is nearer to empty, the jerkiness has returned.

Now it seems to be less petrol dependent but more petrol level (or pressure) related. Now, what part of the car gets affected when petrol level is lower - say perhaps the fuel pump (and hence affect the fuel injector)? I am not sure if the EGR (exchange gas regulator) is sensitive to this or not.

I am unsure but hopefully it will be identified the next time I go to Honda service. At this current situation, I can only keep the tank up close to full, and fill with "better" petrol (95 RON say) to keep the jerkiness away.

Will keep you posted if I find anything else new/interesting. :confused:

[ahcash]

lokets.. my advise is to run Shell Optimax for a few tanks before coming to a conclusion.. Optimax has some sort of cleaning agent which hopefully will clean up the path. though I prefer BP Ultimate..

The Fuel filter might need to be checked...

[lokets]

Just musing on this jerkiness, I wonder:

1. Are there anyone else out there with a MANUAL transmission who had/is experiencing this same sort of jerkiness? In other words, can jerkiness develop on non-CVT transmission and hence is caued by other failure(s) than the expensive CVT fixes (see following...)

2. In UK, there's this interesting read suggesting that EGR (exhaust gas regulator) can be the cause of jerkiness.

Link: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=HON&h_make=HON&p_model=%20556

It says:
--------

What to Watch Out For:
...
Batch of faulty EGR valves eventually caused jerky running on early Jazz models...

...if customer complains of jerky running on 2 - 3 year old Jazz, replace EGR valve.

------

There is a good chance that this is caused by a faulty EGR. The reason is that jerkiness is present regardless of:

1. petrol grade - 91 RON, 98 RON, cheapies or better brand petrol
2. whether tank is full/near-empty (hence not fuel delivery dependent)
3. ECU/PCM reset (I have done this a number of times)
4. Jerkiness only comes when engine is hot/warm - not when cold (an indication of EGR failure)

Well, it's only a few more days to go before I send the car in for service check and perhaps we will find out what is dead.

If you are interested, here's an article about EGR (http://autorepair.about.com/od/generalinfo/l/bldef165.htm) This says essentially this (see red bits):

-----------

The EGR valve is the main emissions control component in the exhaust gas recirculation system. The valve is located on the intake manifold, and opens a small passageway between the exhaust and intake manifold to allow a metered amount of exhaust to flow back into the engine. This reduces combustion temperatures and helps control the formation of oxides of nitrogen. The EGR valve is opened by the application of vacuum to its control diaphragm. Some also require a certain amount of exhaust back pressure before they'll open. On newer vehicles, the valve is electronic and uses one or more solenoids or a small stepper motor. The valve should remain closed while the engine is cold and at idle. It should only open once the engine has warmed up and is running at part-throttle. If the valve sticks shut (or is disconnected), NOX emissions will soar and detonation will often result (See Detonation and Spark Knock). If it sticks in the open position or fails to close all the way, it acts like a vacuum leak resulting in a rough idle, hesitation and possible stalling.

----------

[MiSloVic]

lockets, what mileage is ur jazz now? EGR problems tends to happen ard 20-40k km.. excessive carbon deposits caused by poor petrol can cause it, so can faulty EGR valves. the other thing which you might want to chk, is, ur injectors... choked injectors could cause jerking, but this jerking tends to happen across a wide rpm range.. for ur case, since it happens at low rpm, and at the rpm range when the egr opens and closes, i strongly suspect it is the EGR. EGR problems is quite common in recent hondas, from the 2000 accord to the 7th gen civic and jazz.

jerkiness caused by faulty/worn CVT start clutch only happens just as u are accelerating... when the start clutch tries to engage itself..

[lokets]

lockets, what mileage is ur jazz now? EGR problems tends to happen ard 20-40k km.. excessive carbon deposits caused by poor petrol can cause it, so can faulty EGR valves. the other thing which you might want to chk, is, ur injectors... choked injectors could cause jerking, but this jerking tends to happen across a wide rpm range.. for ur case, since it happens at low rpm, and at the rpm range when the egr opens and closes, i strongly suspect it is the EGR. EGR problems is quite common in recent hondas, from the 2000 accord to the 7th gen civic and jazz.

jerkiness caused by faulty/worn CVT start clutch only happens just as u are accelerating... when the start clutch tries to engage itself..

MiSloVic: Thanks for the tips, the Jazz is doing 87,000km now but that does not mean its EGR should not fail now. I think part of the reason is likely the crappy fuel I was unknowingly using (Woolie's 91 RON base unleaded).

To solve the injector deposit issue, I can try Nulon injector cleaner, which I had applied once few months ago.

I am now very afraid of a worn/break down in start clutch as that will cost me alot - more than all the savings I ever get from the fuel saving CVT itself.

I notice the jerkiness happens when I hover around 1500 rpm or some rpm around the low range region. This means: no acceleration and the car is already moving (ie. not during start moving), hence I assume safely the faulty start clutch is out of the question.

I will call Honda to get a direct end-user price for a new EGR & see what they say first. The replacement procedure for this is very direct & simple, and even if Honda does it, it should be minimal (in Honda service terms, that means hundreds $ :( )

[lokets]

I phoned up Honda and the dealer parts department quoted me A$275 (with GST) for a single EGR valve. That's not cheap-cheap but if that solves the problem, that's it! However, since I'm already booked for servicing by Honda, I would leave that with them.

And interesting thought as to why I think EGR is faulty is this: when I switch from lower grade 91 RON petrol to 98 RON (like Shell Optimax), the jerkiness goes away - I think: well, that has nothing to do with transmission (CVT) or its start clutch as it is unaware or unaffected by petrol grade. But, a faulty EGR would be, as it feeds exhaust gas back into combusion chamber, and that is sensitive to petrol RON. Higher RON, better/more complete the combustion, so the petrol actually overcomes the detonation problem caused by the faulty EGR - but only for a time. Later, probably the knock sensor/computer figures that out and readjust the timing to suit higher RON, and then the problem returns, as the EGR is still bad.

That's my own self 2 cents worth of self-diagnosis.

[aaronng]

If you are only 1 month out of warranty, you might be able to persuade them to fix it for you under warranty. The service manager has the power to authorise an out of warranty repair. If they still don't want to, call up Honda Australia's customer relations and tell them about your Jazz's problem, the dealer diagnosis on the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve and that you are only 1 month out of warranty. With luck, Honda Australia might approve the repair under their cost.

[lokets]

If you are only 1 month out of warranty, you might be able to persuade them to fix it for you under warranty. The service manager has the power to authorise an out of warranty repair. If they still don't want to, call up Honda Australia's customer relations and tell them about your Jazz's problem, the dealer diagnosis on the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve and that you are only 1 month out of warranty. With luck, Honda Australia might approve the repair under their cost.

Thanks for the suggestion - I can play dumb and see what they say first. However, the car is 1.5 months out of warranty, and I've not been a good boy - not bringing the Jazz back to Honda for servicing, except when the nuts come flying out or EGR starts dying - bad boy, bad-bad boy... :o So, my chances for parts-paid-for warranty are slim but hey, it's worth a try.

[lokets]

I just thought of this: another way to see if EGR is causing jerkiness is this: go to a quiet street/area, stand outside the car and get someone to drive it pass you, and hold the engine at the dodgy rpm range. You will hear unusual engine exhaust sound.

I did this few days ago and can hear distinct poping sound like: (imagine this through the words): mmmmmm.... pop...pop.... mmmmmm.... pop..... mmmm

To me this indicates a seemingly combustion chamber/engine oriented issue/problem. And EGR is one of the common component to fail and it directly relates to intake/exhaust gas control, it is a good chance that it is the culprit. It causes gas flow to be muck up and produce music. :p

Yesterday, whether it is due to this stupid EGR thing or not (I still have no chance to fix it - so still driving around with mmm.. and pop....), I found that fuel consumption had actually improved, it is now doing 5.0L/100km on the highway consistently. Still, not worth having a lousy EGR & getting miserable fuel improvement, along with plenty of "no-satisfaction".

[lokets]

Folks, this should now wrap up this forum thread. I went to Honda today and got the car serviced. The answer for the jerking movement? EGR - exhaust gas regulator valve. Replacement time: 1 day.

For some reason (and obviously I do not intend to find out/question), Honda is replacing the EGR & servicing for FREE, though my Jazz is about now 2 months out of warranty. I kept quiet and they did a pretty OK job and now the jerkiness is gone. They said this is a "warranty replacement" (yeah, sure... I agree) but confirmed it would have normally cost A$400 (parts & labour).

As concluding questions to the Honda service people:

1. Yes, the Woolies lowest grade unleaded (91 RON) petrol appears to give some Honda cars grief. They said some times the fuel are sourced from Malaysia (how/why - don't ask me the details) which is not good to feed to your Honda. If it comes from Singapore, it is OK - but who knows... the moral: avoid it if you can. I did not ask about the higher grade Caltex 95 RON Vortrex (or something like that) - I presume that's OK. I will now switch to Shell 91 RON at least & once every few tanks, fill it with Optimax (98 RON), but obviously not now, with fuel price skyrocketing.

2. The EGR failure has nothing to do with my switching of D to N, back & forth, during the long traffic delay (see my earlier post). He said it is most likely coincidental more than anything else. OK... let's hope so, but I would now drive with D most of the time, unless there's a long delay while stopping (then I switch back to N momentarily), better safe than sorry.

Hence, if your Jazz (regardless whether manual or CVT) is experiencing jerking motion like what is described in this post (mostly my story), please have your EGR checked - it may well be the faulty component.

-- END OF STORY --

[mcyj]

Thanks for reporting your experience, Lokets. I've been following this thread and have found the info you posted very helpful.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe I'm experiencing the same jerkiness. My Jazz is also out of warranty. It's about 2-3 months out, so hopefully they'll fix it for free for me too. I better arrange for an appointment for this soon.

[Jacky Wong]

About your jerkiness problem....

This actually happened to some of our members in malaysia.
We found out this problem and already solved !!!!!

The main reason jerking are

Gear Box oil trasmission
After changing to NEW BRAND CVTF gear oil. Our Ride no more jerking.
Bear in mind..... it is better to change your Gear oil every 20,000 kms.

Hope this will help you.

Thanks

[lokets]

About your jerkiness problem....

This actually happened to some of our members in malaysia.
We found out this problem and already solved !!!!!

The main reason jerking are

Gear Box oil trasmission
After changing to NEW BRAND CVTF gear oil. Our Ride no more jerking.
Bear in mind..... it is better to change your Gear oil every 20,000 kms.

Hope this will help you.

Thanks

Thank you Jacky Wong. I think though the symptoms are similiar, perhaps the issues the friends over at Malaysia found are slightly different. In my case, it is a faulty EGR (thankfully), and as I said before, what I worried the most is a start clutch failure.

The Jazz service manual does say gear box oil for CVT (ATF-Z1 or something) is another possible reason. I totally agree that we should change the ATF at specified interval, which in Australia's case is every 60K km (first replacement though is at 80K km). And I also recommend that only Honda's ATF be used - they are not expensive, surprise. Additionally, the Australia's warranty requires engine oil replacement every 10K km. I also use Honda's semi-synthetic oil for that, not expensive either.

I think the above service intervals are different from the Malaysia ones. It is unusual that you said the gear oil (presumably CVT ATF fluid) needs replacement every 20K km - this is 1/3 of our recommended interval in OZ.

As explained, in my case, EGR is the fault, and I'm sure it's not the ATF because I replaced the transmission oil (CVT ATF) just 1.5 months ago. I am sure though replacing the oil will make the jerking smoother but will not solve the problem in my case.

Nevertheless, your point is noted and thanks. :thumbsup:

[ahcash]

The new one is not available yet.. I've called the dealer and they said they are in progress of bringing it in.. but not as yet.

[Jazzle]

so y dont u just fill in 95octane petrol??? emm.. i wonder how's the quality of caltex vortex gold

[lokets]

so y dont u just fill in 95octane petrol??? emm.. i wonder how's the quality of caltex vortex gold

I want to have my cake & eat it - ie. go for the minimum unleaded required by Jazz, which is 91 RON. I do shopping regularly at Woolie's and got quite a lot of save 4 cents/fill coupon - and I was therefore filling with Woolie's base 91 RON unleaded, it is the cheapest, that's the one and only reason.

With this experience and slightly wiser now, if I have Woolie's coupon, I will go for the Caltex 95 RON Vortrex instead of the base 91 RON now - don't mind spending abit more. Otherwise, I will switch part of my shopping habit to now collect Shell petrol offer coupons (available at Coles, Bi-Lo, etc. - the other gang).

I don't think Caltex is as big a player like Shell, and they do not offer higher grade like Shell's Optimax which is 98 RON, and also Optimax Extreme which is 100 RON (with some ethanol, beware...). Hence, if this angle makes any sense, Shell perhaps will give you better grade petrol. Go for Shell.

At this time, I'm testing my post-EGR replaced Jazz with 95 RON from Caltex and it is OK, feels slightly better than Woolie's 91 RON, but in reality, hardly worth the extra $, other than to avoid the crappy base 91 RON.

[lokets]

Thanks for reporting your experience, Lokets. I've been following this thread and have found the info you posted very helpful.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe I'm experiencing the same jerkiness. My Jazz is also out of warranty. It's about 2-3 months out, so hopefully they'll fix it for free for me too. I better arrange for an appointment for this soon.

If you are having very similiar symptoms I described here, it is likely the EGR. Where about are you anyway? You can PM me if you are in Brisbane and I can tell you which dealership I went for servicing.

Actually, I'm surprised they do it for free - I've only been to the official Honda servicing once or twice due to their rather expensive bills. And I also did not extend the warranty - they were not impressed. However, it maybe that Honda realises that EGR failure is common, and since car is just out of warranty (the counter guy was checking my Jazz's record when I walked in and he say... let me bring up your car history...), it maybe fixed for free. OK, I used to bad-mouth Honda some times, now I feel slightly better.

If your service centre refuses to do it for free, you can mention about my case and see what they say - if you need more info, PM me as well.

[aaronng]

I think the above service intervals are different from the Malaysia ones. It is unusual that you said the gear oil (presumably CVT ATF fluid) needs replacement every 20K km - this is 1/3 of our recommended interval in OZ.

Well for my manual Accord, service manual doesn't tell you to change your transmission fluid. I changed it anyway and at 20,000km, it was black! When I let it settle, the bottom was black while the top was gold. So it was metallic particles in the fluid. From now on, I"m changing it every 1.5 years. The fluid only costs about $30 anyway.



I don't think Caltex is as big a player like Shell, and they do not offer higher grade like Shell's Optimax which is 98 RON, and also Optimax Extreme which is 100 RON (with some ethanol, beware...). Hence, if this angle makes any sense, Shell perhaps will give you better grade petrol. Go for Shell.
Tough luck. We get Caltex Vortex98 here in NSW, which is 98 RON. And it is better than 98 Optimax in my car. I can feel that it is smoother and I also get an extra 50km per tank when I refill a full tank. I keep records of my fuel consumption and I have data all the way back to Oct 2004 when I first bought the car. It's a consistent 50km extra!

[lokets]

Well for my manual Accord, service manual doesn't tell you to change your transmission fluid. I changed it anyway and at 20,000km, it was black! When I let it settle, the bottom was black while the top was gold. So it was metallic particles in the fluid. From now on, I"m changing it every 1.5 years. The fluid only costs about $30 anyway.

Strange that the manual does not say to replace transmission fluid :confused: But indeed, this is one of the fluid that is not expensive and should be changed regularly (or whatever any service manual says).


Tough luck. We get Caltex Vortex98 here in NSW, which is 98 RON. And it is better than 98 Optimax in my car. I can feel that it is smoother and I also get an extra 50km per tank when I refill a full tank. I keep records of my fuel consumption and I have data all the way back to Oct 2004 when I first bought the car. It's a consistent 50km extra!

Yup. No Caltex 98 RON here (at least where I looked or stayed). If that works for you, go for it. However, for arguments sake, QLD petrol prices are slightly cheaper than NSW. :thumbsup:

[aaronng]

Yup. No Caltex 98 RON here (at least where I looked or stayed). If that works for you, go for it. However, for arguments sake, QLD petrol prices are slightly cheaper than NSW. :thumbsup:
Yeah, I think Vic doesn't have caltex 98 as well. They keep referring to my 98 as woolies crap petrol LOL.

Yeah aye, petrol prices are shit. It hit 144.9 for 91 RON here yesterday.

[Jacky Wong]

Just for your info,

Honda Malaysia recommand us to change engine oil every 5000kms.
Gear Fluid at every 20000kms for those who drive high speed. (I mean RPM hit at max).
If you drive very gentla, it is ok to change at every 40000kms.

Maintain Good Quality Engine Performance.

ATF Fluid is old Formula for Gear Box. (Jerking problem)
Now we all using NEW Formula called CVTF (No more Jerking)

[lokets]

Just for your info,

Honda Malaysia recommand us to change engine oil every 5000kms.
Gear Fluid at every 20000kms for those who drive high speed. (I mean RPM hit at max).
If you drive very gentla, it is ok to change at every 40000kms.

Maintain Good Quality Engine Performance.

ATF Fluid is old Formula for Gear Box. (Jerking problem)
Now we all using NEW Formula called CVTF (No more Jerking)

Every 5K km change engine oil?!? For me that would be every 6 weeks. Does the Malaysian Jazz service manual say to do that? That is a very short distance.

I'm not sure about the gear fluid every 20K km for constant WOT driving - do whatever they ask I guess.

What do you mean by new formula called CVTF? Is this a new Honda product or another name for the ATF-Z1 we call here in OZ? This is the oil specifically meant for CVT in Jazz. I thought there is only 1 official CVT fluid replacement (called ATF-Z1)? :confused:

[MiSloVic]

Every 5K km change engine oil?!? For me that would be every 6 weeks. Does the Malaysian Jazz service manual say to do that? That is a very short distance.

I'm not sure about the gear fluid every 20K km for constant WOT driving - do whatever they ask I guess.

What do you mean by new formula called CVTF? Is this a new Honda product or another name for the ATF-Z1 we call here in OZ? This is the oil specifically meant for CVT in Jazz. I thought there is only 1 official CVT fluid replacement (called ATF-Z1)? :confused:

yes, honda has a new ATF for CVT. saw it in their workshop in singapore. it was released only late last year, and apparently, it solves a lot of jerky CVT issues. the ATF-Z1 is meant for normal autoboxes, Honda used to think this is sufficient for CVT, but the countless jerky problems reported worldwide, made them think otherwise.

[Jacky Wong]

yes, honda has a new ATF for CVT. saw it in their workshop in singapore. it was released only late last year, and apparently, it solves a lot of jerky CVT issues. the ATF-Z1 is meant for normal autoboxes, Honda used to think this is sufficient for CVT, but the countless jerky problems reported worldwide, made them think otherwise.


Thanks for the good reply....

HOPE WE CAN SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM HERE....

Service at every 5k is in the manual book in Malaysia...
If you really go for every 5k service, you will really the power of dream. (Honda Moto).

Honda Moto = Power and save Petrol !!!

Come to our website and learn more....

www.myjffc.com

[aaronng]

Every 5K km change engine oil?!? For me that would be every 6 weeks. Does the Malaysian Jazz service manual say to do that? That is a very short distance.

That's because in Malaysia, servicing at the dealers cost only $40-60! Yes, the cost of labour is much cheaper there. I remember when I was servicing my car and putting in synthetic oil that the oil cost more than labour. :)

[Jacky Wong]

That's because in Malaysia, servicing at the dealers cost only $40-60! Yes, the cost of labour is much cheaper there. I remember when I was servicing my car and putting in synthetic oil that the oil cost more than labour. :)

Cost should not concern about your car service...
It is important to maintain well for a good ride.

If you thinking to save cost, than you will never get good quality ride.

[MiSloVic]

Cost should not concern about your car service...
It is important to maintain well for a good ride.

If you thinking to save cost, than you will never get good quality ride.

well, if u are using synthetic oil, u can easily do 10k km before the next change.. remember reading somewhere that typical syn oil from major brands will not break down significantly for 20k km or so..

[aaronng]

Cost should not concern about your car service...
It is important to maintain well for a good ride.

If you thinking to save cost, than you will never get good quality ride.
For oil change, it cost RM750 here...
I change my own. I change transmission every 20,00km and oil every 6 months/7000km. For the oil, I still go back to the dealer because I can maintain a good relationship with them and get warranty (they replaced my fender, clutch master cylinder and will replace glovebox too!).

Once warranty is over, I'm changing it myself.

[aaronng]

well, if u are using synthetic oil, u can easily do 10k km before the next change.. remember reading somewhere that typical syn oil from major brands will not break down significantly for 20k km or so..
20km is a no-no if you are doing short trips and city driving. Synthetic won't break down but the water vapour from combustion + short trips that don't let the engine oil warm up enough to boil the water off will result in even synthetic oils being needed to change. That is why Honda specifies 10,000km/6 months... because that caters for the worst case city driving. And if you do 6 month servicing, Honda FEO at $27 is good enough to last that long. Plus, you get to see the dealer 1 extra each year to complain about things.

[lokets]

yes, honda has a new ATF for CVT. saw it in their workshop in singapore. it was released only late last year, and apparently, it solves a lot of jerky CVT issues. the ATF-Z1 is meant for normal autoboxes, Honda used to think this is sufficient for CVT, but the countless jerky problems reported worldwide, made them think otherwise.

MiSloVic: can u please confirm the part number/name for this new oil and I will check with Honda OZ if they have such a thing here too. In my Jazz OZ manual, it says to use ATF-Z1. Thanks.

[mcyj]

If you are having very similiar symptoms I described here, it is likely the EGR. Where about are you anyway? You can PM me if you are in Brisbane and I can tell you which dealership I went for servicing.

Actually, I'm surprised they do it for free - I've only been to the official Honda servicing once or twice due to their rather expensive bills. And I also did not extend the warranty - they were not impressed. However, it maybe that Honda realises that EGR failure is common, and since car is just out of warranty (the counter guy was checking my Jazz's record when I walked in and he say... let me bring up your car history...), it maybe fixed for free. OK, I used to bad-mouth Honda some times, now I feel slightly better.

If your service centre refuses to do it for free, you can mention about my case and see what they say - if you need more info, PM me as well.

Yeah, similar symptoms. Jerking at about 1500rpm. It suddenly appeared and was pretty bad (jerked quite violently). Sent it for a service and requested they change the transimission oil. Also switched to Optimax at the same time. After that was much better. I can still feel jerking at 1500rpm but is much less noticeable. The jerking is quite 'smooth' or 'gentle' compared to before, so it isn't so noticeable, but its definitely there, which annoys me.

I have a feeling that the Honda dealer will try rip me off to get it fixed. I'll send you a PM to get more info about your case, so that I can try to get them to do it for free. Thanks :)

[Jacky Wong]

MiSloVic: can u please confirm the part number/name for this new oil and I will check with Honda OZ if they have such a thing here too. In my Jazz OZ manual, it says to use ATF-Z1. Thanks.

Sorry to say, I think your Jazz OZ Manual already out dated !!

I`ll try to take some latest products photos and show it to you ok...

[Jacky Wong]

For oil change, it cost RM750 here...
I change my own. I change transmission every 20,00km and oil every 6 months/7000km. For the oil, I still go back to the dealer because I can maintain a good relationship with them and get warranty (they replaced my fender, clutch master cylinder and will replace glovebox too!).

Once warranty is over, I'm changing it myself.


Sure or not ? Change oil cost you at RM750/- !!!!

Over in Malaysia cost less than RM150/-.
I use Semi Synthetic oil.

[rollin_high]

how are you man,i have inside news from honda.i read some of your stories and basicaly yes this is a common problem, you will feel jerking at low speed 50kph at light throttle approx 1,500rpm and on a flat road,you have a faulty e.g.r valve,all early ones have this problem auto or manual,nothing to do with petrol or auto oil (by the way honda's under production of new cvt fluid will be available soon,mainly made for the new '06 hybrid civic).even if your cvt start clutch feed back learn is not complete it will not cause this only will feel a shudder from rest to take off.you could even change it yourself just get a new egr valve and gasket from memory its around $300,there is only two 12mm bolts,let me know if you need any other help i can get the new part number if you want as well.

[lokets]

how are you man,i have inside news from honda.i read some of your stories and basicaly yes this is a common problem, you will feel jerking at low speed 50kph at light throttle approx 1,500rpm and on a flat road,you have a faulty e.g.r valve,all early ones have this problem auto or manual,nothing to do with petrol or auto oil (by the way honda's under production of new cvt fluid will be available soon,mainly made for the new '06 hybrid civic).even if your cvt start clutch feed back learn is not complete it will not cause this only will feel a shudder from rest to take off.you could even change it yourself just get a new egr valve and gasket from memory its around $300,there is only two 12mm bolts,let me know if you need any other help i can get the new part number if you want as well.

Thanks for the feedback, yes, it is quite easy to fix it once it is confirmed it is the EGR. In my case, well, Honda does it for free, comes with warranty (of 6 months according to receipt), so can't really ask for anymore. But if it plays up again, I will DIY.

From your inside Honda story, is start clutch failure common, and if so, is the only symptom the shudder from rest to take off?

And I guess fixing a failed start clutch is going to cost alot more than simple EGR?

Also, does this start clutch problem happen also to manual trans Jazz?

[aaronng]

Sure or not ? Change oil cost you at RM750/- !!!!

Over in Malaysia cost less than RM150/-.
I use Semi Synthetic oil.
Yup, it's so expensive here. I bring my own synthetic oil (RM100) to service, and the rest of the RM600 is from labour!!!!!!! I miss malaysia sometimes. Cheap servicing. (But I still service the Kembara myself since it is easy. Don't even need to jack the front up!)

[MiSloVic]

MiSloVic: can u please confirm the part number/name for this new oil and I will check with Honda OZ if they have such a thing here too. In my Jazz OZ manual, it says to use ATF-Z1. Thanks.

hee.. i would love to check for u.. but i'm in melb.. I spied those cartons of cvt atf at the SG honda workshop, when i went there to get some parts.

[rollin_high]

no havent had many problems yet just the oil life should only be 20,000kms thats what i would recommond for jazz,but yes there many problems with HRV.na manual dont have a start clutch its put into cvt cause the dont have a torque converter to absorbe vibrations.

[bigdongers]

my 03 vtis is jerking too. I think I got a couple of months left for warranty. need to get it looked at.

[STDA2005]

Folks, this should now wrap up this forum thread. I went to Honda today and got the car serviced. The answer for the jerking movement? EGR - exhaust gas regulator valve. Replacement time: 1 day.

For some reason (and obviously I do not intend to find out/question), Honda is replacing the EGR & servicing for FREE, though my Jazz is about now 2 months out of warranty. I kept quiet and they did a pretty OK job and now the jerkiness is gone. They said this is a "warranty replacement" (yeah, sure... I agree) but confirmed it would have normally cost A$400 (parts & labour).

As concluding questions to the Honda service people:

1. Yes, the Woolies lowest grade unleaded (91 RON) petrol appears to give some Honda cars grief. They said some times the fuel are sourced from Malaysia (how/why - don't ask me the details) which is not good to feed to your Honda. If it comes from Singapore, it is OK - but who knows... the moral: avoid it if you can. I did not ask about the higher grade Caltex 95 RON Vortrex (or something like that) - I presume that's OK. I will now switch to Shell 91 RON at least & once every few tanks, fill it with Optimax (98 RON), but obviously not now, with fuel price skyrocketing.

2. The EGR failure has nothing to do with my switching of D to N, back & forth, during the long traffic delay (see my earlier post). He said it is most likely coincidental more than anything else. OK... let's hope so, but I would now drive with D most of the time, unless there's a long delay while stopping (then I switch back to N momentarily), better safe than sorry.

Hence, if your Jazz (regardless whether manual or CVT) is experiencing jerking motion like what is described in this post (mostly my story), please have your EGR checked - it may well be the faulty component.

-- END OF STORY --


Hi, I'm from Singapore. I got the same problem now. I heard that Singapore Honda Kah Motor do not accept/repair parallel import cars as mine was imported from Japan (Honda FIT 1.5T). I have tried to change CVTF and better petrol, and still the same jerky. Anyone can help? Btw, where can I get a copy of the manual as I do not have it when I bought over the car from dealer as a 2nd hand owner.

[JaCe]

Hi, I'm from Singapore. I got the same problem now. I heard that Singapore Honda Kah Motor do not accept/repair parallel import cars as mine was imported from Japan (Honda FIT 1.5T). I have tried to change CVTF and better petrol, and still the same jerky. Anyone can help? Btw, where can I get a copy of the manual as I do not have it when I bought over the car from dealer as a 2nd hand owner.

I don't mean to be an ass but that's the reality when you buy parallel imports. A lot of my family's racecars (in M'sia) are parallel imported (the Evos and the GTRs) and whenever there's a problem, you gotta go to local mechanic/workshop to get it fixed up. But then, you can't really expect much more because why would the local distributor help you when you didn't even buy from them, and the car isn't anything to do with them. Sure they might help out of good will, but... this is Asia we're talkin about!

Sorry my post doesn't really help; as for the manual... I've tried googling but can't find anything for ya.

[MiSloVic]

gd luck.. i know kah motor is a pain in the xxx, i've deal with them before. they are also picky on warranty claims on cars which are bought from them.

when u say jerky, at what rpm range, what throttle opening.. jerkiness can be due to a lot of things.. if u have changed the cvtf and use better petrol, u've ruled out 2 things: insufficient CVT fluid, and poor petrol combustion.

other problems, especially if the previous owner has whacked the car hard, given the tempting 7sp pseudo-auto, is the CVT gearbox itself. there could be grooves in the cvt pulleys, faulty start clutch or a faulty EGR.

for ur manual, if u can understand Jap or chinese, pop over to the honda japan site, download their japanese manuals. the manuals has lots of graphics, and plus some chinese understanding, u can probably make some sense out of it.

[STDA2005]

Thanks for the reply. There's another thing that I would like to know. How do I reset my ECU as I would like to try whether does this help on me.