Jackson Racing SC

[crx51]

Hi all, i have a 1989 crx and ive messaged someone from this forum regarding a b18c transplant and im going to talk to him more in depth about it but was wondering if maybe i should just go supercharged. See the car i have acquired is a 1owner full history with ONLY 50ks on it so im thinking it would hold up ok.
There is a JRSC kit for the crx which produces 142hp at the wheels which i think is quite good and also quite sensible. Problem is CAPA used to be the sole aussie distributor and now there are none. Does anyone know where to get one thru? Will any importers do such an import? Or are there another brand, locally sourced, that accomodate for the crx?
Regards Scott

[yourfather]

Just wondering why you'd be doing supercharging rather than turbocharging?

[ACTI0NMAN-1]

look at the pro and cons of both supercharging and tuboing, i'm sure you will choose the latter if you are after hp. Unless you want something unique.

[crx51]

Yeah i understand the pro's and con's of both. I would like something unique and also im looking at really spending a lot on suspension and stuff to really make it handle. Superchargers with their linearity will be better for controlling wheelspin and not upsetting suspension balance. Im not after a drag car, in that case i would get a turbo for sure. Just after a go kart but with a bit more torque for the uphill portion of a mountain (bit of a struggle in a 1.6) downhill is easy.
Thanks though for pointing out the things i may have easily overlooked.
Scott

[nedgeworth]

I'd also love to find one for the good old ZC (d16a8) but they are few and far between. I'm unaware of anyone who still makes or stocks the units world wide. :(

[BiGANG]

i was thinking about getting a jackson racing supercharger for a while. After talking to a couple of people around here, I found out that there is a bit of hassle to get them into a AUDM model because of some sor tof clearance issue with pulleys. I would contact mossmotors in the us to clarify before i bought one if i were you. But if you are just looking for a place to buy one, just get it off an american company. probably cheaper anyway

[AusS2000]

I'd be looking for one secondhand in the US. That's how I got my Comptech SC.

The usual cavaets apply.

That said, a small sensibly chosen turbo will do the trick. If you're only looking for the peak of the JRSC then I guess a T25 would be about right.

Another thing to consider is reliability. If a JRSC fails you're in all sorts of trouble. I think they use a small Eaton blower?? If a T25 fails you just drop in another one that someone has pulled from their 200SX or whatever.

[Weq]

u can pickup JRSC's on ebay and honda-tech all the time. thats 2nd hand. If ur not going to import urself speak PM Jimmeh on this board and he will help u out.

As for the S/C being more linear, ive ridden both a JRSC and a vortec centrifugal and i must say, the vortech blower was alot like a powerfuly NA car. very predictable.. sadly they dont make them for D's.

[crx51]

Thanks to all that took the time to share their thoughts ideas and knowledge. I havent been posting because i was in sydney picking up my crx. Again thanks all, ill look into whats involved in importing one myself, otherwise ill just leave it for a bit im not in a huge hurry. It will be coming though.

[saxman]

just remember, torque = fun

turbo = torque

supercharger = no torque

[AusS2000]

Not so with the JRSC. It's positive displacement so the torque is there from down low. And no lag either.

[Slow96GSR]

just remember, torque = fun

turbo = torque

supercharger = no torque

You would be wrong. A S.C. adds torque just as a turbo does. A turbo will do more HP at the top end of the power curve while a S.C. does it all the way thru, more lower to mid end though. That's why a lot of people use both. No lag then really. I build my turbo motors as torque motors so you have the rotational force to get you off the line and get RPMs up so the turbo will kick in perfectly. A S.C. motor you don't have to do that. Of course a S.C. avg adds only 30-40% more hp/tq at MOST and a Turbo can add much more. I guess you have to look at what else you have to get. There is more to a Turbo then a S.C. as far as parts go. Installing a S.C. takes a quarter of the time and tuning is a little bit easier. Read these:
http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=19
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm

[saxman]

forced induction will add torque over stock, period... there's not debating that...

however, as an air pump, a turbo is FAR more efficient(a typical roots blower, like the jrsc is about 50% thermally efficient, where as a normal turbo set up will be in the mid 70's... making a turbo about 150% as efficient as a supercharger on a given set up) , so you will make more torque. Then, take the fact that the supercharger sucks down torque to spin it up, compared to the turbo that uses the spent exhaust energy, so you're taking your already lower torque numbers and just sucking them dry.

Yes, you'll have more torque than stock(which with a honda isn't saying much), but you certainly aren't making any significant leaps forward.


Also, the jrsc has the unfortunately problem of being VERY limited in the amount of boost that can be ran through it. Without any ease of intercooling options(I realize there is one company that produces a very expensive air water intercooler for the jrsc, but when it costs as much as the supercharger itself, it's not what I would consider a viable option.), the jrsc is more of less just a hot air pump. This kills the high end numbers, and significantly limits the boost that can ran, putting a huge damper on the amount of torque you can ever have. There are ways around this with superchargers(i.e. using a centrifugal blower), however in those situations you're still making less torque than a turbo, and suddenly have WAY WAY WAY more lag than any turbo anyone would ever consider using.


Any sort of decent supercharger set up isn't really going to have way less parts to install... you still need an exhaust manifold(never seen someone run a supercharger with a stock exhaust manifold), still need intake pipes, still need an intercooler(and if you're using the jrsc, then you have the hassle of all the extra crap with the watercooler), still need injectors, still need all the same tuning/ems stuff, etc. What you're saving in oil lines, you make up for in belts.

Install wise, I'd love to see someone install a supercharger(with all the needed supports... intercooler set up, etc) in 1/4 the time of a turbo... unless you're talking about fabricating pipes and such from scratch, then maybe I can understand.


Tuning wise, it's really not that different. You get all the fun boost maps that need to be tuned, but you also get all the extra fun with adjustments for tip-in, etc

[AusS2000]

I had a Comptech SC on my S2000 prior to the turbo. Everybody said to me "Why did you get rid of the SC? SC's don't have lag and provide boost from idle.". I'd have to explain to them that what they were talking about was Positive Displacement SC whereas my Comptech/Paxton is a centrifugal SC so the boost builds with revs. I'd also explain that with a correctly chosen turbo and a high compression engine the 'lag' or delay in boost build is so minimal as not to be noticable.

But that doesn't change the fact that if a PD SC'd car is idling it has Xpsi the split second you mash the accelerator. If you have a look at the comparative dyno graphs of the Comptech vs. LoveFab vs. BPR SC in the S2ki FI forum you'll see that the PD blower has a torque advantage in the mid range but is overtaken by the turbo later in the rev range.

[AusS2000]

There are ways around this with superchargers(i.e. using a centrifugal blower), however in those situations you're still making less torque than a turbo, and suddenly have WAY WAY WAY more lag than any turbo anyone would ever consider using.

Small correction there. Lag is when the turbo speed lags behind the engine speed and hence produces less boost. It needs to spin up. By definition a centrifugal SC doesn't have 'lag' because it's speed is always proportional to the engine. Restrictions aside the SC will always move the same amount of air at 4000 rpm. It's just that if the throttle is closed it will vent it. The split second you go Whole Open Throttle the boost is there.


you still need an exhaust manifold(never seen someone run a supercharger with a stock exhaust manifold), still need intake pipes, still need an intercooler(and if you're using the jrsc, then you have the hassle of all the extra crap with the watercooler), still need injectors, still need all the same tuning/ems stuff, etc. What you're saving in oil lines, you make up for in belts.

Sorry, simply and demonstrably not true. The two kits i have experience with have no requirement to change the exhaust manifold. One doesn't really require an intercooler (air or water), neither require injectors and both come as complete kits with no further tuning required (although it is always recommended).

[saxman]

Small correction there. Lag is when the turbo speed lags behind the engine speed and hence produces less boost. It needs to spin up. By definition a centrifugal SC doesn't have 'lag' because it's speed is always proportional to the engine. Restrictions aside the SC will always move the same amount of air at 4000 rpm. It's just that if the throttle is closed it will vent it. The split second you go Whole Open Throttle the boost is there.

You're not talking about lag here... this is more of a combo of boost threshold and throttle response. Turbo lag, by definition, being the amount of time required from giving the engine full throttle to when full boost is achieved, is much much lower than on a centrifugal, where full boost is achieved at redline.




Sorry, simply and demonstrably not true. The two kits i have experience with have no requirement to change the exhaust manifold. One doesn't really require an intercooler (air or water), neither require injectors and both come as complete kits with no further tuning required (although it is always recommended).they don't require it to be changed, but it's something I would consider part of a complete system. An exhaust manifold is really a moot point anyway as it's a very minimal change.

There are plenty of turbo kits that do not come with injectors, intercoolers, or any sort of ecu unit, however, as far as I am concerned, these are all things that are a part of any sort of proper set up, regardless of if they came as a part of the "complete" kit.

[AusS2000]

You're not talking about lag here...

Ehh? When I say lag I'm talking about lag. When I don't, I'm not. My point it is, whatever the delays, SCs don't have "lag" as such.

From http://www.thefastandfurious.info/tech/tech_index.htm (the definitive source of ricer info. ;) )


Turbo Lag: The time that it takes a turbo to "spool up", or start working in its' most efficient range is called turbo lag. Think of it as a delay in the amount of time from when you depress the gas until the engine starts to speed up...the bigger the turbo, the longer the lag. But bigger turbos make more horsepower overall...the challenge is to use a turbo just big enough to give you that sudden rush of acceleration AND good power overall.

Centrifugal SCs only delay in reaching their boost at a given RPM is due to the intake tract length. But because they are only producing half their peak boost at half the redline (approx) they don't produce much power/torque and people incorrectly call this lag.

PD SCs produce the same pressure throughout their efficient range and hence produce more power and torque than Centrifugal in the mid-range.

Turbos have lag. At partial throttle there is not much exhaust pressure turning the turbine so it's not spinning particularly fast. Mash the throttle and the wastegate closes and all the exhaust hits the turbine. But it's a mechanical device with rotational inertia. It takes an infinite force to accelerate something instantly so there is always a delay. With the right turbo it ain't long, but it's still there.


they don't require it to be changed, but it's something I would consider part of a complete system. An exhaust manifold is really a moot point anyway as it's a very minimal change.

Then why did you mention it? And your point was that you have never seen an SC that used the stock manifold. My response was apparently you haven't looked too hard.


There are plenty of turbo kits that do not come with injectors, intercoolers, or any sort of ecu unit, however, as far as I am concerned, these are all things that are a part of any sort of proper set up, regardless of if they came as a part of the "complete" kit.

Me too. But that doesn't change the fact that there are hundreds of SC'd S2000s running around the US with stock injectors and ECU and no charge cooling. Just using a boost hider, a rising rate regulator and low boost. I ran a Comptech system with stock injectors and no charge cooling for a while including track days.

[crx51]

This post generated a bit of interest didnt it. Fact is a supercharger and a turbo both have their advantages and disadvantages. Its a pretty accepted fact that whilst a turbo if set up with incredible dilligence has little lag they are in most cases more laggy than a supercharger. Second fact is though that for the same money a turbo will always put out more power and torque than a supercharger but normally slightly up the range. I consider both these facts and just want a supercharger for that 140 odd kw and 190 odd Nm that it will give for a bit more urgency up those hills. Most people would probably choose a turbo though. Thank you again though to those that have left their insights into the topic.
Scott

[saxman]

Turbos have lag. At partial throttle there is not much exhaust pressure turning the turbine so it's not spinning particularly fast. Mash the throttle and the wastegate closes and all the exhaust hits the turbine. But it's a mechanical device with rotational inertia. It takes an infinite force to accelerate something instantly so there is always a delay. With the right turbo it ain't long, but it's still there.

this is not turbo lag, this is boost threshold... there is a difference


and quoting www.thefastandthefurious.com? come on, I thought you were better than that ;)


I guess I didn't really mean that there aren't supercharger kits that don't come with exhaust manifolds, just that nearly everyone I've seen that has installed a supercharger has also installed an aftermarket exhaust manifold. The point there is that a decent set up, supercharger or turbocharger, will require the same basic components.


to crx
if 190nm is all your after, by then all means, go for it... but that's not exactly what I would consider much torque for a forced induction honda... that's a VERY low number.


a greddy turbo kit(which uses a very small turbo, so you won't have to deal with much "lag" at all) will cost you less money, and produce a good bit more hp, a whole lot more torque, and unless you drive around under 2k rpm(personally I never drive under 2k... ever... unless your flywheel hp while you're idling at a light matters), you won't see any power advantage anywhere in the powerband with the jrsc, and you'll have FAR more potential later on.

[crx51]

to crx
if 190nm is all your after, by then all means, go for it... but that's not exactly what I would consider much torque for a forced induction honda... that's a VERY low number.


Lol. Its not a massive number no. Its around the 190nm at the wheel on the same dyno as the standard d16a8 got 130ish. Pretty much 50% gain in torque. Its enough for me. Thing is ive lost my license enough, not after a straight line rocket just enough urge to keep me close to the big holden v8s and the like between corners so i can be a haemroid around the corners. One other thing though is ive always loved turbos and always wanted one and i must admit everyone is making me think about it but.. I will get one and its just too easy to get more boost more power and more torque and soon enough that power will overwhelm not only my clutch (which the S/C will certainly do im sure) but also blow my gearbox and probably bust a piston or something unless i go crazy with internal mods (which really would mean i could have gone with an old dead crx if i was going to be replacing everything!). Also if i have a turbo everytime the turbo 'starts' to boost up im going to want to wind it out and i cant afford to lose my license again.

Really though i have as much of a need for speed as anyone but in reality i love everything about the standard crx, its a great car, i dont really want to change the character of it. We'll see what happens. I guess if i cant source a S/C and someone can guarantee me a decent turbo system that wont blow a piston throug my recently polished bonnet then i guess i will consider it. Above everything comes driveability and reliability. Next comes delivery of power and torque .. then comes peak outputs.

Anyway im glad to see ive sparked the turbo vs supercharger debate. Should go join a v8 forum and tell them they are crap and a skyline would waste them? Then i could start the technology vs big ballsy cubes debate! lol.

Its interesting reading everyones opinions though and i appreciate people sharing their experience of both superchargers and turbos too as ive got no experience of my own in an aftermarket forced induction car.

If anyone has turbocharged a d16 or zc then id be keen to hear what they blew up or if they kept it together. Problems and virtues of the system i guess.

Scott

[saxman]

I've turboed many d16's(including my own) and b16's... so far only one engine that I've laid a hand on has blown, however, I for some odd reason think that has a bit more to do with the owner draining the oil and coolant, forgeting to refill it, then driving off... but hey, that's just me. It made great numbers up to that point.

With something like the jrsc, because of the much hotter intake temps, the engine is going to less reliable than a turbo set up making a bit more power.

Heat is the enemy, and the jrsc is nothing but a hot air pump.


Just remember, whatever you go with, be it a supercharger, turbo, etc, that engine management is THE most important part of the set up, and the stuff that comes in the kits is NOT acceptable. A stand alone ecu is the only way to go.

[crx51]

Just remember, whatever you go with, be it a supercharger, turbo, etc, that engine management is THE most important part of the set up, and the stuff that comes in the kits is NOT acceptable. A stand alone ecu is the only way to go.

Yeah there are a lot of valid points being made on this post. What i wouldnt mind doing if anyone would be willing is.. when one of these brisbane and coast cruises happens if someone with a turbo d16 could take me for a short drive round the block or something just so i can guage how well i think it works.

With the stand alone are you talking a complete new computer like motec or something or is a hondata type thing sufficient? How much money is it for a standalone? thousands isnt it?

With the heat too i had an idea though, cryO2 tank. Sets up a bulb in the intake which the air is forced to flow over/around which is cooled by compressed c02 which is minus 20 or something degrees, cooling the intake massively. Sounds pretty interesting, im doing some research into it atm.

thx again

[yourfather]

This post generated a bit of interest didnt it. Fact is a supercharger and a turbo both have their advantages and disadvantages. Its a pretty accepted fact that whilst a turbo if set up with incredible dilligence has little lag they are in most cases more laggy than a supercharger. Second fact is though that for the same money a turbo will always put out more power and torque than a supercharger but normally slightly up the range. I consider both these facts and just want a supercharger for that 140 odd kw and 190 odd Nm that it will give for a bit more urgency up those hills. Most people would probably choose a turbo though. Thank you again though to those that have left their insights into the topic.
Scott


yeah but if you were to do a B16B swap with a couple of bolt ons etc, you'd have similar power.

[AusS2000]

this is not turbo lag

I beg to differ. The reason large turbos have more 'lag' than small ones is because of the amount of time it takes them to spin up. And in rallying they use anti-lag setups that spit fuel into the exhaust manifold so it ignites and spins up the turbo.


and quoting www.thefastandthefurious.com? come on, I thought you were better than that ;)

I thought that was funny! I quote Snoopy the Dog when he speaks the truth.


I guess I didn't really mean that there aren't supercharger kits that don't come with exhaust manifolds, just that nearly everyone I've seen that has installed a supercharger has also installed an aftermarket exhaust manifold.

Granted, but then most also have aftermarket wheels but they aren't a necessity either. I would say the majority of SC'd S2000s have a stock manifold and cat as the stock items are so good. A higher percentage might have an aftermarket exhaust but mostly for bling.

[SINISTR]

CRX51: you have two options :)

B16A/B18C swap or woth that little D16A8.

With enough bolt on type mods the D16 is capable of making more HP than a B16A and with good power/weight ratio of the CRX you'll keep up with alot of the other cars. Those mods if thought through - will cost you LESS than a Swap.

[saxman]

Yeah there are a lot of valid points being made on this post. What i wouldnt mind doing if anyone would be willing is.. when one of these brisbane and coast cruises happens if someone with a turbo d16 could take me for a short drive round the block or something just so i can guage how well i think it works.

With the stand alone are you talking a complete new computer like motec or something or is a hondata type thing sufficient? How much money is it for a standalone? thousands isnt it?

With the heat too i had an idea though, cryO2 tank. Sets up a bulb in the intake which the air is forced to flow over/around which is cooled by compressed c02 which is minus 20 or something degrees, cooling the intake massively. Sounds pretty interesting, im doing some research into it atm.

thx again
something like hondata would be perfectly fine


I would look to water/alcohol injection before something like the cry02 set up. water injection will bring temps down, however, it's pretty much a band aid solution. Relying on a consumable to keep the engine from blowing is never a good idea.


yeah but if you were to do a B16B swap with a couple of bolt ons etc, you'd have similar power.
similar hp, maybe, but remember as stated earlier

torque = fun

stock honda motors and torque don't go in the same sentence.


I beg to differ. The reason large turbos have more 'lag' than small ones is because of the amount of time it takes them to spin up. And in rallying they use anti-lag setups that spit fuel into the exhaust manifold so it ignites and spins up the turbo.
You're still not differentiating between lag and boost threshold ;)



Granted, but then most also have aftermarket wheels but they aren't a necessity either. I would say the majority of SC'd S2000s have a stock manifold and cat as the stock items are so good. A higher percentage might have an aftermarket exhaust but mostly for bling.

this may be accurate among the s2k crowd... I'm thinking more in terms of the civic crowd.

[Slow96GSR]

Can I just say, I bet I posted but I don't want to reread all this... Find out what your budget is. Under 5k do the D-series and bolt ons, over 5k do the swap to a b16 or b18, whatever you can get locally, or close to you. Then there are enough bolt-ons for that motor you won't need a turbo. You're not at a high altitude like I am so save money until you can afford some internals and a good turbo kit, not a decent one, those tend to be cheap! At high alts. you need to go turbo not n/a so you should be able to add 50-75% more hp with bolt-ons and maybe uping the C/R and bore. Just my $.02USD!!

[AusS2000]

You're still not differentiating between lag and boost threshold ;)

Rather than repeatedly telling me I'm wrong why don't you explain why? What is your definition of 'lag' and 'boost threshold'?

[AusS2000]

this may be accurate among the s2k crowd... I'm thinking more in terms of the civic crowd.

Then you should have said that. This is 'OzHonda' not 'OzCivic'.

[AusS2000]

Lag

A lag is sometimes felt by the driver of a turbocharged vehicle as a delay between pushing on the accelerator pedal and feeling the turbo kick-in. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure. The directly-driven compressor in a positive-displacement supercharger does not suffer this problem. (Centrifugal superchargers do not build boost at low RPMs like a positive displacement supercharger will). Conversely on light loads or at low RPM a turbocharger supplies less boost and the engine is more efficient than a supercharged engine.
Lag can be reduced by lowering the rotational inertia of the turbine, for example by using lighter parts to allow the spool-up to happen more quickly.

From here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharged

[saxman]

lag is basically that, the amount of lag time between nailing the throttle.
boost threshold is basically the lowest rpm that the turbo will boost under full throttle.

By making a statement about how a supercharger doesn't have lag because it provides boost from idle is really more of a discussion regarding the boost threshold of the device, not the lag.


They're two seperate concepts that a lot of people use interchangably, but they are not the same thing. Some of the stuff you're talking about is lag, some of it isn't

[AusS2000]

Lag is the amount of time it takes to build to peak pressure at a given RPM.

The reason turbo takes time to build boost when you mash the throttle is two fold. One reason is that until you mash the throttle the wastegate is open so the turbo isn't spinning fast enough. When the throttle opens the wastegate closes and the exhaust takes time to spin the turbo up to speed. The second is the compressibility of the intake tract which can be quite long in a turbo car with FMIC. These two factors lead to lag. In a properly designed system the former is the much greater part of the equation even though the later can be reduced by proper turbo choice.

SCs do not have lag per se. The reason is that they are always at the same speed proportional to the engine and always moving the air. It's just that when the throttle is closed they vent or plumb back the air. They also usually have very short charge paths (the JRSC is a prime example) and even if they don't, vent close to the throttle body so compressibility is minimal.

PD SC's don't have boost thresholds as they are always moving the same amount of air per revolution. You could say they have an upper boost threshold as they become inefficient at high revs but that is not what we're talking about.

Centrifugal SCs don't really have boost thresholds either. Sure a CSC that has 8psi at 8000rpm will only produce approximately 4 psi at 4000 but it will reach that limit at the mash of the throttle. It's not lag, it's a proportional pressure curve. No matter how long the engine is at 4000 rpm the boost won't change.