[Euro] 2nd Gear annoyance [Archive]

EuroDude

30-04-2006, 02:49 AM

Is it just my Euro or is 2nd gear really hard to quick-shift into gear?

With my Civic, I was able to quick shift into 2nd no probs, but the Euro's 1st->2nd gear takes much longer to change successfully. When I change into 2nd, I can feel hesitation (metal-to-metal contact) and some gear crunching. But all the other gears are fine. A couple of days ago I badly crunched 2nd simply because 2nd wouldnt engage quick enough. Changing from 2nd to 3rd at the same rate is perfectly fine.

I'm changing the gear normally, i.e. push clutch in + let go of the accelerator, change gear, release clutch.

If I slowly change into 2nd, its ok. I need to wait like 2 seconds to get a smooth shift. :confused:

aaronng

30-04-2006, 03:20 AM

Are you pulling downwards or down-left? 2nd gear has triple cone synchros, so you can't shift as fast as your Civic with dual cone synchros. But I can do it fast anyway. My car is special. :p I can get into 1st gear while moving at 30-40km/h.

EuroDude

30-04-2006, 12:07 PM

Straight down into 2nd gear. Why, does it matter if its a bit too far to the left or right?

Does 3rd gear have tripple cone synchros as well? Because going from 2nd to 3rd is much faster/easier.

xiang

30-04-2006, 10:08 PM

i seem to find 1st to 2nd faster than 2-3. when shifting quick anyway..

aaronng

30-04-2006, 10:53 PM

Straight down into 2nd gear. Why, does it matter if its a bit too far to the left or right?

Does 3rd gear have tripple cone synchros as well? Because going from 2nd to 3rd is much faster/easier.
3rd has triple cone too. But it seems smoother because you take longer to shift from 2nd to 3rd.

The way synchros work is like this:
You are in 1st gear at 4000rpm. At this point, 2nd gear is spinning at around 2500rpm (for example), based on road speed. Before you press the clutch in, your engine is spinning at 4000rpm, and your input shaft is also at 4000rpm. When you press the clutch in, your engine rpm drops. When you pull down into neutral on your way to 2nd, the input shaft rpm drops. If you are very quick and the time in neutral is short, then when you are pulling into 2nd gear, the input shaft is still above 2500rpm, and thus the synchros have to work to slow down the input shaft to 2500rpm. When the synchros have to slow the input shaft down too quickly, then you get that gritty/grinding feeling.

Another example to feel the input shaft is when you are at a standstill in neutral. Your engine is spinning at 700rpm, and the input shaft is at 700rpm too. When you press the clutch in and go into 1st gear, you'll feel that there is some resistance and maybe even notchyness because the synchros have to slow the input shaft down to 0rpm to match 1st gear rpm at 0km/h. But, if you press the clutch in, leave it in neutral for about 5 seconds and then push into 1st gear, there is no resistance at all! That's because the input shaft has slowed down to the required 0rpm.

Don't you hate input shafts? :p

Chris_F

30-04-2006, 11:14 PM

yea i hate input shafts :wave:

EuroDude

30-04-2006, 11:23 PM

Yep gotta luv input shafts :p

I realise 2nd>3rd takes an extra gearstick move horizontally, but I take advantage of the horizontal spring mechanism, so both 1st>2nd and 2nd>3rd gear changes are the same speed.
I was testing the gear changes alot today, 3rd is definetely much smoother at the same shift speed.

Seems like its a combination of the Euro's Triple cones, plus the fuel burn-off emissions "feature" of the engine when acceleration stops, plus the cars faster 3rd gear road speed contribute to the roughness of the low gears and smoothness of the higher gears.

Mind you, sometimes 1st>2nd does engage quickly and the wheels do a mini burn-out and the VSA Traction light flashes on, but this was much easier to do in the 2-cone Civic.

Mechanically/physically, how do 2-cone and 3-cone synchros differentiate?

Tobster

01-05-2006, 10:27 AM

I don't have a problem with my 06 1-2. However, I did notice that there's a bit of play in the selector -- if you try to force it to the side (to make sure you're going in to 2nd and not miss the gate), then it can crunch. You can also feel the grind slightly if you push against it while it's in gear.

If you just let it guide itself (best way to describe it is as slightly rubbery), I find it just pops in and out beautifully. You sort of have to trust that it's going to slip into the right gear -- but it is precise!

aaronng

01-05-2006, 11:43 AM

I realise 2nd>3rd takes an extra gearstick move horizontally, but I take advantage of the horizontal spring mechanism, so both 1st>2nd and 2nd>3rd gear changes are the same speed.
I was testing the gear changes alot today, 3rd is definetely much smoother at the same shift speed.
The reason why 2-3 shift is smoother, is because you spend more time in neutral than in a 1-2 shift. When the stick is in neutral for that 0.5 seconds, the input shaft speed drops from 2nd gear speed to a speed closer to that of 3rd gear. That's why it's smoother.

EuroDude

01-05-2006, 11:57 AM

@Tobster, interesting findings, i'll do some testing.

@aaronng, I understand what ur saying. What i'm trying to say is that if I shift into 2nd the exact same speed as shifting to 3rd, 2nd is still 'crunchier'.

for instance (shift times arent exact, approx only)

1st->2nd 500ms = crunch
1st->2nd 1000ms = metalic hesitation feeling
1st->2nd 2000ms = smooth
--------------------------
2nd->3rd 500ms = smooth

With my gearbox, 2nd gear takes two times longer than 3rd to get hte same smoothness. I'm starting to wander if my 2nd gear synchros are a bit dodgy.

aaronng

01-05-2006, 12:48 PM

You have to shift 1-2 so that you stay in neutral longer. You can do a fast 1-neutral, leave it for 0.5s and then a fast neutral-2 shift. It's not the speed that you pull it into the gear from neutral that detemines the crunch. It is the amount of time left in neutral that matters.

EuroDude

01-05-2006, 01:04 PM

Even if I leave 1st>2nd in neutral as long as 2nd>3rd, its still more hesitant to shift. My Civic is the opposite, >2nd is easier than >3rd which I found a bit strange (although I think the civics had a common crunch issue with 3rd gear).

Anyway thx for the info, i'll keep ur comments i mind when I drive next.

edit: had another drive then, comparing ten 2nd gear shifts vs 3rd gear shifts, both shifts were the exact same speed, even the time in Neutral was exactly the same, but again 2nd gear felt hesitated and frictional and 3rd was as smooth as ever. The car has only done 2600km so maybe its still wearing in.

EuroDude

02-05-2006, 11:12 PM

Chris_F

02-05-2006, 11:47 PM

cool I'm gonna give this a go too

I've always wondered why the car revs up when i change gear and let off the throttle. Now i know :thumbsup:

EuroDude

03-05-2006, 12:06 AM

Man these new LEV engines are a pain in the butt - I wish there was a LEV-OFF button :p

Or maybe hint to Honda to change the ECU so it doesnt do the LEV stuff when driving spiritedly.

aaronng

03-05-2006, 01:03 AM

w00t! been reading the tsxclub forums and they have 2nd Gear problems too!
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9428

Apparently if you keep the throttle pushed in a bit while changine gear, it will shift smoothly.

From what they said, its a DriveByWire glitch.

Which gets me thinking, when you let go of the accelerator, the engine does its fuel burn-off vibration thing (for LEV emissions sake), which keeps the revs high up a bit longer than normal.
So if you dont completely lift off the throttle, it wont do the fuel burn-off, and therefore the engine revs will drop faster, resulting in a better Input Shaft speed match to the engine.

Gonna try it tomorrow and see how it goes :)

:honda:
That thread was about powershifting (which is flat shifting). That poster, aaron33... that's me! Anyway, I don't think keeping the throttle lightly pressed when pressing clutch will make your shift smoother. As soon as you hit the clutch with slight throttle, your revs will be slow to drop. I find it is better that you let go of the accelerator a split second before you press clutch. That way when the revs try to rise to burn off the excess fuel, the torque is transferred to the wheels and you won't notice your RPM increasing.

Omotesando

03-05-2006, 01:35 AM

I find that with triple synchros the shift is a lot slower than it can be....
I wouldn't say its smoother even if it aims to. Probably double synchros will be considered smoother as its more direct and quicker to shift. Although 3 synchros to go through is mighty good protection for the gears especially with the higher rpm differences and also higher torque in the lower gears :)

As for what the TSX guy said - by blipping or remaining slightly throttled to get rid of the overburn feature. I don't think it will work? At this stage of shift the clutch is pressed in and already detached from gearbox. What the engine revs now do is irrelevant until you clutch out again. At this moment it is mainly the 'input shaft's' momentum which needs to be slowed down via 3 synchro meshing together, to match the to-be-selected output gear's lower rpm.

The only way that would make the gear shift better, is if you change the Gearbox Oil to a slightly thinner one, especially a synthetic which is smoother. I don't know if the Euro uses GL4 or GL5 - if its GL4 then Castrol Syntrans 75W-85 is quite good. If its GL5 then DON'T use the Castrol Syntrax 75W-90, it crunches like crazy when I used it before. Change it to one of the Redline or Motul Gear Oils.

The smoothest Gear Box Lubricant (not really oil) is from Redline, the Lightweight Shockproof. It is like a detergent and the gearbox becomes much smoother to use. I have used this before in different car. It felt very different and smooth, but I wasn't very trusting of it as I had too much power in that car - but lots of competition guys swear by it. In the Euro Accord I think that would just do the job perfectly. ;)

When shifting - the gearbox components, gear tooths, etc - actually compresses the Gearbox Oil a lot and as such if your oil is too thick it will kind of stop everything in its tracks, especially when cold. Thicker oil normally gives better protection however, but if its only a small viscosity change - it shouldn't be a big issue especially if you switch to smoother Synthetic as well.

Pumped

03-05-2006, 08:43 AM

Getting into 2nd gear in my cars a bitch too!

aaronng

03-05-2006, 12:11 PM

Getting into 2nd gear in my cars a bitch too!
How are you doing it? I suggest we all take videos of our 1-2 shift and post them up for comparison.

Pumped

03-05-2006, 12:49 PM

How are you doing it? I suggest we all take videos of our 1-2 shift and post them up for comparison.

not exactly sure on my technique, could post a video! :D
everyone thats driven my car has commented about it though, its easily the hardest gear to get into. Although it seems to have gotten better with use, when it was new it was worse :o

aaronng

03-05-2006, 01:32 PM

I feel that the difference between the Euro and other car's 1-2 shift is a feeling that the Euro has some sort of a gate, while the other cars don't. So it is a bit more difficult to get in if you use the same force/technique as for other cars.

EuroDude

03-05-2006, 07:05 PM

That thread was about powershifting (which is flat shifting). That poster, aaron33... that's me! Anyway, I don't think keeping the throttle lightly pressed when pressing clutch will make your shift smoother. As soon as you hit the clutch with slight throttle, your revs will be slow to drop. I find it is better that you let go of the accelerator a split second before you press clutch. That way when the revs try to rise to burn off the excess fuel, the torque is transferred to the wheels and you won't notice your RPM increasing.

I tried letting go of the clutch a split second later, and it does indeed help a bit. Its tricky to get the timing right though and its still not as smooth as 3rd gear.

And I also tried blipping and lightly holding the throttle, with mixed results that require too precise timing to get any improvement.
I think its easier to just granny shift and lose a bit of pace, rather than risk crunching 2nd gear.

If only I could somehow hack the ECU or disconnect a cable to disable the fuel overburn "feature" :o

petsfact

03-05-2006, 08:26 PM

try rev close to 4000rpm in 1st before changing into 2nd. it works for me but not sure if it is healthy or not.

aaronng

03-05-2006, 08:29 PM

try rev close to 4000rpm in 1st before changing into 2nd. it works for me but not sure if it is healthy or not.
Of course it is healthy. :)

Omotesando

04-05-2006, 12:09 AM

Some people here should try shifting in a R34 GTR or Celica - after that, you'll find the gear shift in the Euro to be quite okay still!

VirIIx

04-05-2006, 01:55 AM

Chris_F

04-05-2006, 08:46 AM

try changing your gear oil (transmission fluid) to somehting like motul or redline they are meant to improve shift feel

aaronng

04-05-2006, 08:54 AM

and you wonder why you're engine is rough aaron :b

i've always felt my 2nd has been funny.. crunch crunch at high revs fast changing lately again.. and the other gears have been feeling.. sticky.. in a way :(
Time to change your transmission fluid! You just had your master cylinder replaced, yeah? So the clutch fluid should still be fine.

MalGib

13-05-2006, 10:56 PM

The change in gear ratios from first to second is a huge gap ... too big in my opinion, like falling off a cliff ... hit 4000rpm in 1st and you pick up 2nd at about 2200rpm ... no wonder you all find the shift into 2nd motchy and tight. The ratio changes from 2 -3 - 4 - 5 & 6 are all nice and close ... very cumfy, well spaced ... changing gears from 2nd up is like moving a hot knife through butter.

I noticed the sticky feel going into 2nd from the very first time I drove the Euro, and realised it was because the change between these two gear ratios is too abrupt. I dont force it or rush it, in fact you can feel the syncro guide the 2nd gear in as you press into the 2nd gear gate ... so it takes a fraction longer to engage 2nd but it is a lot smoother to work with the gearbox than against it. Its a very nice feel when you get it right, but probably wont give you the best sprint times if your trying to push low 15's in the 400 metre dash.

cleary

13-05-2006, 11:21 PM

I've noticed it, especially recently (~15K on the clock of an 05)

Adagio

14-05-2006, 08:58 AM

I got taught to drive on a WW2 Jeep and a WW2 Blitz wagon so it was mandatory to to double declutch on most gear changes. I have always used this system all my driving life. Up until the Accord it gave me slick smooth down changes. I cannot seem to synchronize double declutch downshifts on my Accord to achieve the same creamy changes, are the triple cone synchros getting in the way??
Adagio

aaronng

14-05-2006, 12:56 PM

Adagio

14-05-2006, 02:41 PM

Thanks, I will experiment next time out.

Omotesando

14-05-2006, 09:56 PM

I think you have to change your double declutch style a little bit for the Accord. For me, it is also a hit and miss. I find that I have to give it a harder throttle blip and then it goes into 1st smoothly (I do it by going 2-1 at 20-30km/h. If I blip it so that the RPM is at the exactly the right amount, the shift is not creamy. If I give it a little more, it is smooth.

From taller gears into 1st gear you can double declutch into it even at 50kph - haha. A lot of people here keep complaining why you can't shift into 1st gear whilst still moving in the Euro, but in reality its almost the same for a lot of cars out there.

But you're right, you have to blip the throttle a bit higher than the required RPM just to shift into it during its downward fall, and then when releasing clutch, blip or throttle-constantly to the correct RPM for smooth release. In 1st gear compared to other gears, it seems like you have to blip and then release clutch more simultaneously than in other gears - just got to do it quicker?

EuroAccord13

14-05-2006, 11:48 PM

With this synchro stuff that I am learning from you guys... Do you think the reason my transmission oil was so black @ 40000KMs coz I go from 2nd to 1st gear @ 60 km/h?

Omotesando

14-05-2006, 11:57 PM

Oh.. Btw, have u got a lot of that metal shavings on your 'magnet' when changing the gear box oil? Anyway, if it is only 40000Km it is only first oil change right? So from now on it should be better..

It is normal to be a bit black for engine oil, even after only like 1000Km of running anyway. :( Don't know gear box oil though, hardly change it. :(

aaronng

15-05-2006, 12:20 AM

With this synchro stuff that I am learning from you guys... Do you think the reason my transmission oil was so black @ 40000KMs coz I go from 2nd to 1st gear @ 60 km/h?
LOL, my 1st gear tops out at around 55 km/h!!!

I changed my tranny oil at 20000km, and it was black to. So it is not just your 2-1 shift.

EuroAccord13

15-05-2006, 12:23 AM

You sure? I topped out at 60.... I think yfin saw me do that once LOL...
What about me sometimes going from 1st to 3rd to 6th... I'm lazy at times LOL...

Also, heel toe with the Euro's FBW isn't as smooth as opposed to the good old cable system...

yfin

15-05-2006, 12:39 AM

aaronng

15-05-2006, 01:30 AM

Hehe, actually, the chap was shifting from 3rd to 4th at redline. Instead of going into 4th, he went into 2nd (TSX is left hand drive, so it is easy to do this if you are forcing the shifter). Haa, I remember, he was wanting to get his clutch pedal creak fixed, but they found this overrev and did not want to honour his warranty. :)

EuroAccord, hehe, 1-3-6 will wear out your synchros more. Especially if you don't give enough time for the input shaft to slow down before you pull the shifter into 3rd. But thanks to your report, I decided to change my tranny oil at 1.5 years. :thumbsup:

Adagio

15-05-2006, 08:25 AM

Seems to me the Accord must have a light weighted flywheel if you have to heavily blip the throttle. This would then keep the revs up longer thus, hopefully, matching the shaft and giving that smooooth change we all attempt to get. If this theory is correct then it explains why my gear changes on the Peugeot 405 diesel are better cause it does have a heavy fly wheel. Someone mentioned gearbox oil. I am about to have the 20,000km service should I request a gear oil change and what to use? Didn't want to make a thread of this at this time.
Adagio

aaronng

15-05-2006, 01:54 PM

Use only Honda manual transmission fluid (MTF). You can tell the dealer that you want the transmission fluid changed when you next book it in. It does adds to the price of servicing though....

Ferrarista

19-05-2006, 12:47 AM

I have to full slam it into 2nd if im doing an agressive take off, if i dont it crunches :(

aaronng

19-05-2006, 01:29 AM

I have to full slam it into 2nd if im doing an agressive take off, if i dont it crunches :(
Ouch...... I'm happy that mine doesn't do that.

EuroDude

19-05-2006, 08:42 AM

I have to full slam it into 2nd if im doing an agressive take off, if i dont it crunches :(

Yeah I have to do that too if I want a competitive take off. The gearbox has freed up considerably now so I have more confidence 'slamming' it now.

But since the fuel burn-off 'feature' keeps the revs high, its basically a power shift and the wheels do a mini burn out.

Adagio

19-05-2006, 09:00 AM

Last time I did a gear change that fast it destroyed 2nd gear- Oh yeah, it was in a Fiat Abarth Bambina 500 :p

aaronng

19-05-2006, 12:18 PM

Yeah I have to do that too if I want a competitive take off. The gearbox has freed up considerably now so I have more confidence 'slamming' it now.

But since the fuel burn-off 'feature' keeps the revs high, its basically a power shift and the wheels do a mini burn out.
Damn, I want to go for one of the weekly meets just to get a ride in your car. It's surprising that an 06 would need to have the 2nd gear slammed in like that.

EuroDude

19-05-2006, 01:51 PM

lol well if I want to shift fast then it needs to be slammed so it doesnt grind.

but normal driving its as smooth as a babies butt, despite taking longer than other gears.

Gerald28

19-05-2006, 02:15 PM

yeh...mines the same....
gotta slam it down to avoiding grinding from 1st-2nd..

i just got a skunk2 knob...and it has made an improvement
i dont need to use so much force to shift from 1st-2nd.

Omotesando

19-05-2006, 02:31 PM

I can't remember the exact speed 1st tops out at - been too long without the Euro.

For people who haven't done what Omotesando has said - just be a little careful - there is no rev limiter when downshifting so make sure you are within the rev range limits.

In the USA I remember reading about a chap with a TSX who downshifted into 3rd at some ridiculously high speed (eg 160kph) and he completely stuffed his engine. And a Honda dealer can immediately see the revs reached as it throws a fault code with the actual peak revs hit.

Actually there is no rev-limiter during any downshifting in all manual-clutch manual shift cars ANYWAY, even without double-declutching done. My point was only trying to say that you can downshift into 1st but implying of course it is the right speed. Even from say 5th to 4th, it matters unfortunately!

Although I'm kind of surprised you didn't hear more about the problems with mis-downshifts destroying engines!! Mis-shifts usually from 3rd into 2nd accidentally, has destroyed literally thousands of DC2 Type Rs, S2000s and E46 M3s engines in the world in the last few years. In the Honda, it was especially easy due to the really slick shifts (I guess apart from the Euro haha). Do a net search on engine problems on some of these cars.

On the E46 M3's some earlier production models had so much trouble with engines dying (most never over-revved), they had numerous global websites put up to complain. Anyone with a manual model but which registered even slightly higher than 8,000rpm on the ECU memory, had their warranties voided. But the trouble was, on the semi-manual SMGII models (which has downshift REV limiter), the ECU nevertheless managed to register more than 8000rpm in a lot of cars which also got damaged. BMW replaced all SMGII damaged engines. But some people were furious because if the SMGII model had both downshift/upshift rev limiters, but still managed to overrev - then it doesn't conclusively prove that the upshift rev limiter was working correctly in the Manual models either.... and some insisted they never over-revved them during the downshifting phrase. Yet had to fork out 5 figures for engine replacement. :(

In reality S2000 has a lot of engine meltdowns as well. Whilst some were due to mis-downshifts, some other cases were questionable!