Is it valve noise or pinging? [Euro] [Archive]

MalGib

15-05-2006, 09:42 PM

Let me set the scene ... accelerating in 2nd gear, upward incline in the road, as the tacho passes 3500rpm ... clickity-clack clickity-clack from the engine ... change to 3rd ... noise stops. My Euro does this every now and then, but not consistantly ... when it does happen though, it's nearly always in 2nd gear, on an uphill run and when the revs get to about 3500 rpm and above.

OK for those of you who remember ... its sounds very much the same as the old cam-in-block engines with poor/dirty hydraulic valve lifters or push rods / valve stem / valve spring distortion noises when under load with a worn engine.

My Euro has only 5300km on the clock, so I'm ruling out the worn engine. I've not had a car that 'pinged' before so I'm only guessing it might be that. I've only used Caltex Vortex 95 RON since new.

Anyone know what it might be? Thanks :)

yfin

15-05-2006, 10:23 PM

Do you always get your fuel at the same place?

It is hard to say definitively it is the fuel but I would try something else - of the 98 ron variety.

Some smaller petrol stations don't sell a lot of premium and it sits in the underground tanks for a long time so the RON drops off a little. This wouldn't be an issue with large sites that do huge volumes.

Water in fuel is also something that happens eventually to many petrol stations.

MalGib

15-05-2006, 10:32 PM

Always use the large 'mega' sized Caltex stations in Sydney, although I filled up yesterday from the one in North Ryde ... first time in a long time. Dont like filling up there, always got my worst fuel consumption figures on my previous cars from that one ... makes me suspicious ...

The noise has happened before when I've filled up from my regular 'large' Caltex stations in the Sydney north-west. Fuel card supplied by my employer, so makes it expensive for me if I fill up on any other brand! Will try 98RON next time, but still concerned about that 'valve'(?) noise from the engine.

dsp26

15-05-2006, 10:37 PM

this is why alota ppl carry a bottle of octane booster in the glove compartment. as said test it first.

you can easily induce knock/pinging/detonation by going up say a westfields carpark ramp in a higher gear and putting the car in load (by WOT) at say 4th/5th gear while going really slow up the ramp....

as said by yfin, its hard to tell the shit some petrol stations have. i know of a person that had a bomb tuned to accept only 98oct otherwise it would ping. this he did before he filled up his beast.. lol!!!

i highly doubt its your valves tapping on the pistons as you would either:
- have a hole/dent in your piston
- bent valve
- damaged rocker

^ the latter 2 would cause poor idle from air leak into the combustion chamber

dsp26

15-05-2006, 10:41 PM

also knock can cause by a myriad of things which include leaning cause by:
- blocked fuel filter
- screwed fuel pressure reg

the only other thing i know (which i've only experienced once in a 4AGE) is misfiring in any of the cylinders.... causes all sorts of noises and struggles/stalls uphills.

But yes these are just the many scenarios. please do the Octane test first!!!

aaronng

15-05-2006, 10:49 PM

Also, as far as I know, the K24A3 has a knock sensor. So when pinging is detected, the ignition and timing is retarded. It could be the sound of a retarded engine that you are hearing, as pinging or knocking does sound like a metalling ping.

I'd say, try a tank (or half) of 98 RON. If it stops making the noise, then it could be pinging.

dsp26

15-05-2006, 11:01 PM

petsfact

15-05-2006, 11:08 PM

dsp26

15-05-2006, 11:13 PM

sorry to hijack the thread, i also experience similar problem but it only happends when i downshift to 3rd gear from 5th (only tried 3rd before) at relatively high speed. i.e 80 or 90km/h and full on accelerate. car won't push and gives clicking noise when window is down.

when you downshifted from 5th to 3rd what did the RPM shoot to? could have been coil bind of valve springs from too high RPM... but thats jumping the gun. you have to provide more detail.

yfin

16-05-2006, 05:09 AM

Let me set the scene ... accelerating in 2nd gear, upward incline in the road, as the tacho passes 3500rpm ... clickity-clack clickity-clack from the engine ... change to 3rd ... noise stops. My Euro does this every now and then, but not consistantly ... when it does happen though, it's nearly always in 2nd gear, on an uphill run and when the revs get to about 3500 rpm and above.

Hey Malgib I just remembered something. A long time ago I noticed I had some vibrating sounds under the bonnet (only at certain RPMs and only from time to time). I discovered that the fuse box lid was not on properly (above the air filter) and was rattling. Check that and your air box screws.

And do you have an Icebox? Sometimes I get some vibration sounds from that too.

I think Aarong is right re pinging - it would certainly be unusual if you are using 95 ron. Maybe if you were using 91 ron but not 95.

panda[cRx]

16-05-2006, 07:34 AM

take it back to your dealer and go for a test drive with the service manager or one of the techs, they should be more helpful than any answer here. especially seeing as they will be doing the work on the car (if required, u could just be crazy)

MalGib

16-05-2006, 10:30 AM

Thanks for your inputs everyone ... much appreciated. Going to do two things ... use 98RON every 2nd fill, and get the dealer to test drive the car when the problem is apparent. I am mighty suspicious that the bowsers marked Vortex 95 arnt always delivering 95RON ... have no proof but has been something I've had a bad feeling about for a long while. The V6 Camry ran very well on 95, but of course it was designed for 91RON so any deviation wouldnt cause it a problem. But I could tell by the loss of fuel economy ... happened when I used certain Caltex's but not from others. Now I suspect a pattern developing with the Euro ... those same Caltex's that yielded the lowest fuel economies with the Camry on 95RON also seem to be the ones where I get the 'pinging' noise as well. Will be staying away from those stations from here on.

dsp26 ... the valve noise I described in my first post of the thread we used to call 'valve bounce' ... and not 'valve tapping' ... of course the valves arnt hitting the tops of the pistons! ... the engine noise and problems would be a lot more serious if they were! ... like 'tap tap tap tap ... bang!' ... engine dead ... LOL!

aaronng

16-05-2006, 01:22 PM

^^^on top of what you said though if it was the case, i'd be worried about WHY its retarding??? the only thing i can really think of is that those things can get sensitive as when faulty!!! especially if there really is something else vibrating real bad.
Could be a bad batch of 95 RON. Happened to me a few times when I had 98 Optimax. The worst one that I remember was when the ambient temperature was 35ºC. I was going up an incline in 2nd gear, at about 2000 RPM, I saw the tacho needle go past 2000, hit 2100 and then back down to 2000 RPM again before going up past 2100 RPM. It was weird. My foot was on the throttle and did not move at all. It could have been the electronic throttle, or it could have been the engine retarding. But what was shocking was that I was using 98 RON! Now I use Vortex98 instead of Optimax. Didn't happen again.

aaronng

16-05-2006, 01:24 PM

when you downshifted from 5th to 3rd what did the RPM shoot to? could have been coil bind of valve springs from too high RPM... but thats jumping the gun. you have to provide more detail.
80-90 km/h should be 4000 to 4500rpm. So that shouldn't be the problem.

Omotesando

16-05-2006, 03:39 PM

I find that pinging these days on newer cars aren't nowhere near like the 'can of marbles shaking noise' they used to describe them as. At lower levels its just very faintly heard, more like a zhee..zhee..zhee noise.. a lot of times u can't ever hear it over the road noise - in fact I had to rely on knock sensor readers to confirm my suspicion.

But if the noise happens in 2nd gear but not 3rd gear going up the slope - it doesn't sound like pinging to me? Coz it should happen on higher gears.
I would say its most probably just a resonance at that certain rpm/frequency with something else rattling inside the car. Like the Fuse Box lid someone mentioned? Or the electric windows?

But why use one tank of 98 and one tank of 95Ron? If assuming the Euro ECU can learn to use the 98RON, then everytime u put in 95Ron again it might ping before pulling back Ignition Timing. Not a good idea at all. :(

aaronng

16-05-2006, 05:31 PM

But why use one tank of 98 and one tank of 95Ron? If assuming the Euro ECU can learn to use the 98RON, then everytime u put in 95Ron again it might ping before pulling back Ignition Timing. Not a good idea at all. :(
Hehe, this is going to being back the old 95 vs 98 RON argument :) . My opinion is that the ECU doesn't make more power with 98 RON, so I don't think it has ignition and timing maps for 98 RON, only 95 RON. Otherwise, Hondata would not have been able to produce that extra power by mapping for 98 RON.

dsp26

16-05-2006, 07:03 PM

The octane rating is a measure of the autoignition resistance of gasoline (petrol) and other fuels used in spark-ignition internal combustion
^^^ i have also proven this by filling a zippo with the different fuels. 98oct doesn't light at all from the induced spark... 87oct lights. also rememebr that gas NEVER catches fire.. the fumes do...

- this is why people advance the dizzy timing to ignite earlier long before the pistons hit TDC to complete the 2nd stroke of an internal combustion engine. this results in a more complete burn hence producing more HP/TQ.
- this is why it prevents PING/DETONATION/KNOCK... its because its "ignition resistant"
- This is why Integra Type Rs say Premium only by the fuel lid... its high CR therefore creates more heat in the CC and is mopre susceptible to ping.

I have seen proven dyno results of simply switching from 98oct to 100oct (Optimax Extreme) in an untuned car gaining 3wkw all-round. However, 100oct runs leaner due to the ethanol mix.

SAU (Skylines Australia) has a bloke with a dyno proven 30wkw gain just from switching to A TUNED 100oct map!!!

Euro Ricko

16-05-2006, 08:30 PM

I had a LS1 powered Commodore putting out 245rwkw exclusively on 95Ron Caltex Vortex bought from a small Woolworths petrol store in Forbes, with no knock at all, at any time,.... so bad batches aside (which you can get no matter what fuel) its a good fuel IMO.

I run it in my Euro now and get no better economy or power on Ulimate or Synergy, so it may not be fuel; but it is stil probably the first place you should look. If changing fuels doesnt do anything get your car on a dyno and see if you can replicate the problem.

aaronng

16-05-2006, 09:51 PM

I have seen proven dyno results of simply switching from 98oct to 100oct (Optimax Extreme) in an untuned car gaining 3wkw all-round. However, 100oct runs leaner due to the ethanol mix.

SAU (Skylines Australia) has a bloke with a dyno proven 30wkw gain just from switching to A TUNED 100oct map!!!
Why would the ethanol blend run leaner than 98 RON? Is it because ethanol doesn't comsume as many O2 molecules during combustion when compared to petrol?

Also, Skylines are turbo'd. And with a turbo, you can control the amount of air going in. That's why you can gain so much by mapping for higher octane. Same thing was reported for the WRX. But on an NA engine, you don't gain that much from just a mapping change unless you also change other parts of the engine.

MalGib

16-05-2006, 10:36 PM

Yes splashalot ... I starting to leaning towards it not being pinging as well.

The noise is not from a loose fitting or a rattle in the engine bay. Its definately coming from the motor itself and not from the exhaust system or some other resonance ... it really does sound like valve noise. Since it starts at around 3500rpm my first guess was it had something to do with the change in valve timing or valve open duration (or whatever it is vtec does) and thats why it only happens between 3500 and 4500rpm.

On the way home tonight it didnt make the noise in 2nd gear, but this time in 3rd gear at around 4000rpm. Only happened once but it was clearly there.

The other piece of information to add is the noise only occurs (if its going to happen at all) when the engine is fully warmed up (like 10km or more travelled), but never when cold or warming up.

Does anyone know if the Euro vtec uses hydraulic tappets (or something similar) in the valve drive system?

yfin

16-05-2006, 10:47 PM

Malgib - just take it to the dealer and see if you can reproduce it. I always hate that exercise as things miraculously go away when a Honda head mechanic is in the car!

So the noise is always at that low RPM - never at 6000rpm? Do you get any noise between 6000rpm onwards?

MalGib

16-05-2006, 10:55 PM

Oh so true yfin! the mechanic taks the car out for a spin and it behaves itself! Thats why i like to have all my facts about me, and comments and inputs by ppl here are a great help when it comes to discussing the problem with the dealer.

cant comment on the 6000rpm+ ... never go there ... cant stand the racket the engine makes, doesnt sound good at all. The engine sounds great from 3000rpm upwards towards 6000rpm, but after that it sounds so strained and stressed ... ugh! Plus, the times I have pushed it up passed 6000rpm I never have experienced that vtec 'kick' I've read about ... in fact it seems to lose acceleration rate if anything, so I now always change gears before 6000, usually 5000 to 5500rpm if I happen to be wanting performance at that time.

I certainly notice the engine kick along strong starting around 4000rpm, but nothing at the 6000 mark. Should it?

jamchen

16-05-2006, 11:25 PM

similar sound also appeared in our MDX ocassionally.... my first thought was the 95 RON i putted in rather than 98 RON that i always do...
but it only happens few times and its now gone... maybe its the petrol or some other factors not too sure... but since then i've always pay 5 cent more to fill with 98 as opposed to 95 :D

Omotesando

17-05-2006, 12:06 AM

Hehe, this is going to being back the old 95 vs 98 RON argument :) . My opinion is that the ECU doesn't make more power with 98 RON, so I don't think it has ignition and timing maps for 98 RON, only 95 RON. Otherwise, Hondata would not have been able to produce that extra power by mapping for 98 RON.

The answer to that is easy.

If say assume (notice I mentioned this both times) the car's ECU is able to learn for 96 or 97RON equivalent fuel quality, then when u are running 98Ron fuel, which in most cases is slightly more since 98RON or whatever MON it runs is the minimum advertised, then the car would be running to the 96-97Ron potential.

And if you put back in 95RON, it will be pinging.

The thing is, IF HONDA bothered to put in a slightly better map for higher fuel RON, it definitely won't be at the 98RON limit anyway ;) More like somewhere in the 96-97RON range.

But if you put in HONDATA and have it retuned to the 98RON, it will still gain power. The thing is, whilst some of the Hondata gains are with increased Timing, most of the 5000-6000rpm gain has to do with the earlier introduction of VTEC as well as cam angle adjustments.

There is another thing that I don't know if I should be insinuating. But IF, assuming the fuel being put in is actually 98.8RON, it could be possible that the aftermarket ECU has been tuned to that potential. So if you get a bad batch of fuel that is only 98.0RON or even 97.5RON as its been sitting in the underground tank for too long, it will activate the revised Knock-sensor activated map pulling off Ignition Timing, much quicker.

Although I'm making assumptions here - the thing is, why use 95RON and 98RON once each? I ASSUME its because for some reason, people THINK 98RON fuels like Optimax is known to have cleaning agents and runs cleaner. That's the same reason why people use Optimax sometimes, even if they normally fuel with BP Ultimate, Vortex 98 or Synergy 98.

That's because Optimax being the first 98RON fuel to come out, has always advertised itself as having that 'cleaning' advantage hahahaha....

jamchen

17-05-2006, 08:57 AM

isn't the ultimate the first 98 RON available in OZ?

Omotesando

17-05-2006, 11:45 PM

I'm pretty sure the Shell Optimax 98 came out first in Australia in both Victoria and NSW by around 1.5 years before BP Ultimate :)

Synergy 8000 came out before BP Ultimate in Victoria. But interstate, I think it was a diff situation.

Is Vortex 98 out in Victoria yet? I've been waiting for a long time, so I could use the Safeway receipts there.

tknova

20-05-2006, 02:42 PM

May sound like a stupid thought but your car is sitll new & running in. I would probaly hold off untill 10,000km serivce and see how you go with some new oil? only a thought.

And i may be wrong but i'm sure at around 3,500-4,000rpm the 2nd cam kicks in? it quite possibly could be a top end issue? i think at the 40,000km service it all get's re-aligned? so maybe your valve clearance isn't right?

It would not pinging, knock sensor would be retarding big time to comp for the bad fuel and if it would be that bad the CEL would be on from bad readings from the knock and also 02.

But in all those 3 statements i'm only really guessing.

aaronng

20-05-2006, 05:37 PM

dsp26

20-05-2006, 05:47 PM

^^^ changing spark plugs to one heat range colder would help.....

MalGib

20-05-2006, 06:23 PM

^^^ changing spark plugs to one heat range colder would help.....

why? what would that achieve given the subject at hand?

aaronng

20-05-2006, 06:42 PM

^^^ changing spark plugs to one heat range colder would help.....
It's just masking the problem and not a solution to the cause of the problem.

BTW, the Euro uses Iridium heat range 6 plugs from the factory.

Omotesando

21-05-2006, 01:46 AM

Some problems with posting messages tonight?

Anyway, forgot to mention - have u definitely checked the Oil Level well?

Just thinking if this happens on certain angles, it might have to do with oil consumption (which may happen on some Euros?) and not enough lubrication to some parts some times?

Otherwise, I still think some type of resonance with something in engine bay. :)

tknova

21-05-2006, 11:40 AM

New cars are not meant to ping. Changing engine oil won't help it as pinging is pre-ignition.

2nd cam kicks in at 6000rpm.

I think we all know new cars are not meant to ping but i think that was already ruled out. I'm sure if your euro was pinging the knock sensor would ajust timming accordingly. or even raise a CEL if the knock sensor or 02 sensor is not working correctly. Euro's run pretty rich from factory anyway.

I know the hi-cam kicks in at 6,000rpm but there is an audiable change at around 3,000rpm & around 4,500rpm on WOT that i hear on my euro even (and it sounds good) and this is where the problem is which is as stated above and thats why i'm leaning towards something in the top end of the motor which is not right. Valve gear to be re-aligned maybe (like the 40,000km service) even though this car is pretty much brand new anything can go wrong from factory.

I think if the euro was pinging you would surely know about it and you wouldn't be trying to guess if it was pinging or not. If the euro pinged. knock sensor would detect and ajust and if the knock did not ajust it would HAVE to raise a CEL.

MalGib

21-05-2006, 01:28 PM

I think if the euro was pinging you would surely know about it and you wouldn't be trying to guess if it was pinging or not. If the euro pinged. knock sensor would detect and ajust and if the knock did not ajust it would HAVE to raise a CEL.

Yep ... came to that conclusion as well a few posts ago ... it isnt pinging. However you raised an interesting point about the cams/valves and adjustment/alignment. I dont know how the variable timing/variable lift is implimented in the vtec motor (although I understand how it all works in a regular engine), but I'm imagining its involved and requires a high level of mechanical precision.

I've always felt my Euro is 'not quite right' since new. Although it has loosened up nicely since around the 5000km mark, I still feel it is reluctant to rev at times ... sometimes its hesitant, sometimes it like little flat spots as the revs climb higher. I'm talking about rpms from 3000 up to 6000, not under 3000 ... the engine is fairly sedate down there, although its smooth and adequate enough.

Where I get the chance I like to open up the throttle full when on a good uphill run ... like the long on-ramp onto the M7/M2 coming off Old Windsor Road ... starting a 70km/h at the bottom and hitting the top before the merge at 130+km/h ... either in 3rd or 4th. Should be smooth and linear right? Well it isnt ... ok crossing the 100km/h mark, but then there is a series of minor stutters while its climbing up to 120km/h and above. I'd almost think its mis-firing, but I know its not that.

Putting all of these events together (including the occassional valve noises that started this thread) , I'm sure my first suspicions are right ... the vtec is not working the way it should when under some form of load and heavy throttle acceleration.

So the question is ... is the vtec/valve/cam timings settings a serviceable item? Can it be tuned and/or adjusted? or would I be wasting my time asking the dealer to check it out and do something about it?

petsfact

21-05-2006, 02:21 PM

those item will be serviced at 40000km, according to my experience anything that is not listed in service schedule even if you ask for it the dealer will say "yes we can fix that, here is your bill for all the things you asked". but no they didn't even look at it cause it's not in their schedule.

Omotesando

21-05-2006, 03:19 PM

Well the Euro's Engine + ECU has a pretty big dead spot in the 5000-6000rpm range. So that's expected. The VTEC rush at 6000rpm is rather 'artificial' because of this, as it is barely continuing on what it would have been producing if the power curve from 5000-7300rpm was completely smooth.

Although at lower RPMs, flat spots should indicate a problem. As the mods will say - just take it back to the dealer to take a look... and scream your head off in their office if they don't look at it. Also, you might want to consider writing to Honda about it.

jbowly

14-01-2009, 02:33 PM

Hey..,.this problem is not just in your vehicle. Many of us have the same f***** problem
It pings in low range and pings above 1100kph. Honda state they have contacted Japan to come up with a fix. zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz ....... 4 months later there is a deafening silence. no body at Honda wants to talk about it. The guys name at Honda Customer relations is Heinz. please get in touch with him through their web page and add weight to the ever increasing number of us out there that have a PINGING Euro CL2 model.Only seems to happen in the auto model.Mine has been pinging since September 2008 has only run on 98 octane has done 5000 pinging kilometers and 2 weeks ago i contacted Honda again and they have'nt replied as at 14th Jan 2009