Integra R swapping ends.

[Iwishiwasa Type R]

Anyone else find their swappin ends. IE tail and head..
I was going around a sweeper. abit too fast.. understeered...braked...weight shift.. feel the rear lift up..( iam sure that was the chain of events) and ass swaps with the head....

whats the usual to prevent this.. it was a really wierd experience...

[air23box]

drive slower....lol

[bennjamin]

learn how to drive properly...and pre-empt situations like this.
You shouldnt ever back off totally or jump on the brakes mid-corner...keep some throttle atleast to keep the car in balance atleast...

[Astro]

hope this was on the track and not a public road ;)

[ginganggooly]

a bit of the old lift-off oversteer.
take it easy on him... it's easy enough to make that mistake WITHOUT speeding, mainly on off-camber, greasy roads. especially with the stiff rsb's :)

you do want to be careful of it though, it's pretty easy to make a pretty serious mess on those sweeping bends.

[BlitZ]

a bit of the old lift-off oversteer.
take it easy on him... it's easy enough to make that mistake WITHOUT speeding, mainly on off-camber, greasy roads. especially with the stiff rsb's :)

you do want to be careful of it though, it's pretty easy to make a pretty serious mess on those sweeping bends.

right on...

try to never brake mid corner.. or have any sudden throttle lift-off...

ginganggooly perfects this like an art... the bastard controls his lift off like no other... crazy mofo

[Zilli]

sounds like you know what is exactly going on with the car, and the weight shift and difference in momentum and intertia created are the main issues.

this happenned to me in the first few weeks of ownership, and it WAS an off camber long sweeper when some idiot came around me in the left lane and he ended up sideway because he lifted off, i brakes straight away at 70km, and spun out too, luckily there were no cars coming the other way

these days ive found a slight amoutn of throttle, even if you feel that your already going to hard and your on the limit, will pull you through, once youve done it ones you will start to ge more comfortable, almost to the point where the car is basically drifiting

[BlitZ]

sounds like you know what is exactly going on with the car, and the weight shift and difference in momentum and intertia created are the main issues.

this happenned to me in the first few weeks of ownership, and it WAS an off camber long sweeper when some idiot came around me in the left lane and he ended up sideway because he lifted off, i brakes straight away at 70km, and spun out too, luckily there were no cars coming the other way

these days ive found a slight amoutn of throttle, even if you feel that your already going to hard and your on the limit, will pull you through, once youve done it ones you will start to ge more comfortable, almost to the point where the car is basically drifiting

with that said .. the best thing to do when you back comes around is WOT, pedal to the metal.. woot woot... vtec...

[bungsai]

Yeah, you should probably spend some time learning about weight distributions and over/under steer.

What happened to you was lift off + brake oversteer....basically...

As you go around the bend you must be careful to watch where the weight of the car is. As well as the left right lateral forces weighting the car left and right (hence body roll) there are forward and back forces. When we accelerate there is a higher load on the rear of the car, and when we brake, this weight is thrown forward to the front of the car.

What i am assuming with ure case is that you were accelerating throughout the turn, or just before you entered it, thus the weight is on the rear end of the car. This can cause understeer as there is less force on the front wheels keeping them planted on the ground and gripping well.

When you brake you throw much of the weight that was on the rear of the car to the front of the car. Now in addition to this you are turning. So since our tegs have 4 wheels think of it in general like this

When we are
turning right - Majority of weighting is on the left hand side wheels.
turning left - Majority on the right hand side.
accelerating - Majority on the rear wheels
decelerating - Majority on the front wheels.

This when we combine turning say right, with decelerating we have the majority of the weight of our 1100kg cars on the front left hand side wheel.
Due to physics and all that crap the faster we do thing, the more force is accumulated, ie accelerate faster - higher weighting of rear end than if we accelerate slowly.

Thus as you were going around the sweeper (im assuming turning right) most of the weight of your vehicle was on the left hand side rear wheels. When you begun to understeer you suddenly lift off the throttle, throwing the weight onto the left hand side front wheel, then you brake, further adding to the force on the left hand side front wheel. Basically, this wheel then acts as a pivot, and the ass end of your car comes flying around due to the fact it has been unloaded....meh ill draw it for you...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/bungsai/ltos800600.jpg

the red boxes are basically indicative of where the weight in ure car is going...basically if you had these red boxes in your car, and there were no obstructions like seats, engine etc, then i think that this is where they would end up. The arrows show you where these forces want to go.

why i spent so long doing this...i dont know...im bored at work and i would rather you didnt kill yourself...your parents would be upset and it would be a waste of an r....cmon learn to drive properly before you go burning around the roads...even if its on a track...

disclaimer - i woke up early this morning and this was produced very hastily. Many times i have substituted the word weight for force and vice versa, i never did physics in year 11 or 12, so my terminology is probably pretty bad. If you feel the need to rebuke me, don't be an asshole about it, i can admit that i dont know everything, if much at all.

Word...drive safe buddy.

Matt

ps i realize i only showed you what you did wrong and didnt tell you what to do...

1 - drive slower, seriously.
2 - see the red boxes, try and keep them to the rear of the car (ie keep on the throttle)
3 - when you are in a turn, especially a sweeping bend, you DO NOT WANT THE RED BOXES MOVING AROUND. Even if you feel you are going a bit too quick, or a bit too slow, or whatever, you DO NOT WANT THE RED BOXES MOVING AROUND.
4 - if you must, and absolutely must let go of the accelerator through a turn, do so SLOWLY and if you MUST brake, DO SO SLOWLY. Lifting off the throttle too quickly in high RPM is as good as slamming on the brakes, and consequently into a tree.

the idea is to be ready before the turn, yeah they tell you this in racv driving school yada yada, but BE READYY BEFORE the turn. In the right gear, at the right speed, ready to just turn the wheel, play with the throttle a bit and hang on.

[Iwishiwasa Type R]

It feels so unnatural... it felt like the rears were 7ft in the sky...

even though I f^cked up... Its like soemthing really unreal that i want to conquer..hhaha

so basically... just stay on throttle..mid throttle?..no brakes?

lift off oversteer...caused by the lsd aswell?

[ginganggooly]

Yes braking mid-corner is probably not the greatest idea, but generally a stomp on the brakes mid-corner won't send the car into snap oversteer (tried it ac EC turn 1) in my experience, doing that will tend to bring about chronic understeer.
sometimes you've got no choice but to become friends with the brake pedal mid-corner, usually to avoid becoming intimate with a pedestrian, animal or idiot pulling out of a side street.

[Jomsy]

you will get to love lift off oversteer soon, braking was the worst thing you could have done so to speak

desent coilovers will make this happen alot later(ie faster) in the corner

[Zilli]

with that said .. the best thing to do when you back comes around is WOT, pedal to the metal.. woot woot... vtec...


bear in mind, depending on how far the rear has come ou,t if you do his be prepared for the car to snap back pretty dman violently, and be committed or it could send you into some wicked 360's

[|N|]

the worst thing u can do during a turn is brake like that....
and is nothing to do with LSD...

read here for abit info on LSD here: http://austeg.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=403

however if u know wat u doing slight oversteer created by lifting of throttle or trail braking for FF could help alot to turn iin for FF but NEVA SLAM ON BRAKE IN A TURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlitZ]

bear in mind, depending on how far the rear has come ou,t if you do his be prepared for the car to snap back pretty dman violently, and be committed or it could send you into some wicked 360's
:thumbsup: ... all about control and understanding your car... it wont be no where near as violent as any rwd...

[ginganggooly]

the worst thing u can do during a turn is brake like that....
and is nothing to do with LSD...

read here for abit info on LSD here: http://austeg.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=403

however if u know wat u doing slight oversteer created by lifting of throttle or trail braking for FF could help alot to turn iin for FF but NEVA SLAM ON BRAKE IN A TURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps it should be pointed out that there are occaisions where braking heavily is your only course of action.

[|N|]

perhaps it should be pointed out that there are occaisions where braking heavily is your only course of action.

sorry la... i was refering to track action ... for street should neva go quick enf to do that anyway la...
;)

[Iwishiwasa Type R]

man I just cant believe it... It felt like the car was floating...
In a rear wheeler when you whip out the rear,... you at least kno where its at or even expect it to happen....

also...if I kept my foot on the gas mid way and left foot brake.. would that be safer?

thanks for the advice guys...will really come in handy... would have been better if i knew it before hand..
might have saved me from buying a new pair of undies...

some of this stuff might even be worth being a sticky...

[Cartoon]

left foot braking is very very tricky, u will find ya self hitting the brakes way to hard at first.

address ya susspension set up, most ppl brake mid corner due to understeer, so stuffer rear sussy and a rear sway bar will help fix the understeer giving u better turn in, but remember this will cause the car to oversteer a little more. but at least u can expect it.

once u know your car and u pridect what its going to do its much easyer to controll it, when i hit the "track" lol im usually in major under steer comming out of the tighter corners but im use to it so i know how much i need to correct the steering.

jst pratice and more of it

[|N|]

man I just cant believe it... It felt like the car was floating...
In a rear wheeler when you whip out the rear,... you at least kno where its at or even expect it to happen....

also...if I kept my foot on the gas mid way and left foot brake.. would that be safer?

thanks for the advice guys...will really come in handy... would have been better if i knew it before hand..
might have saved me from buying a new pair of undies...

some of this stuff might even be worth being a sticky...

i suggest u DONT USE left foot brake... so seems like u not quite sure of the concept of it...

even for left foot brake u dun just jump on it during a turn...

[aaronng]

If you want to practice left foot braking, do it in an EMPTY carpark. If you practice on the streets, someone will report you for dangerous driving LOL!

[1900-hustler]

bungsai.. nice input man.. it would help alot of ppl.. gj!

anyway i woudlnt exactly try left foot braking.. ahah cos if ur cars manuall.. u will stomp ur pedal.. aahah cos thats wt ur leg is used to doing..

if ur car is te 89 integra as it is in ur name, theres alot of car + driver issues that could have been the result of wat happen.. i think everything has been said tho.. sussy setup.. tyres.. etc etc..

however.. dont try it on the roads.. do a driving course or soemthing. so itll teach u the balance of ur car. it really helps.. plus u get to do things to ur car in a controlled environment..

[tron07]

If you are not used to left foot braking you will be in deeper trouble.

Your left foot is too used to stomping hard on the clutch, so when in panic mode, sure will stomp hard on the brakes too, probably will fishtail you even faster.

[bungsai]

bungsai.. nice input man.. it would help alot of ppl.. gj!




woooooo recognition :D:D:D hahaha...thanks buddy...

yeah..stay away from left foot braking for now eh...quite a hard technique to refine...one that you should prbably wait till later to learn :D

good luck wiht it all!

[T-onedc2]

hehe left foot braking is fantastic when you're used to it but definitely practise away from other cars and people (ie, track). I've just completed my suspension changeover to ITR spec with the 23mm rear bar going in last night. Now I can tell you that lift-off oversteer is much easier to find but is also much easier to control once it happens especially in a high speed situation. A smooth driving technique is needed to shift vehicle load while cornering to avoid oversteer and quick calculated counter steering adjustments need to be employed if the rear wonders. Drive carefully man, learn your limits and the cars limits in a safe environment. :)

[Jon_51]

I thought left foot breaking was only for use with dog boxes and the like where you use the clutch minimally at most, to decrease the ammount of time between brake off accelerator on and vice versa? never necessary for cruising.
I wouldn't ever apply break and accelerator simultaneously unless skidding a rwd car.

[bungsai]

left foot braking, slows car whilst keeping weight towards the rear.

[spardikis]

see, never break 'thru' your corner, unless you can drift a fwd honda! yes lads it can be done! lol

its just a basic law of physics....if you are powering thru a corner then break sudenly - weight shifts from the rear and pushes the front down, releasing the down force on the rear where u will find your self starting to drift as you have have a centripical force (conering) trying to pull u off the road.

to corect this you must power through the corner again, and point the wheels towards the direction your ass is hanging out! good fun!

[spardikis]

I thought left foot breaking was only for use with dog boxes and the like where you use the clutch minimally at most, to decrease the ammount of time between brake off accelerator on and vice versa? never necessary for cruising.
I wouldn't ever apply break and accelerator simultaneously unless skidding a rwd car.


left foot breaking - or heal toeing is very important in a fwd car!

[T-onedc2]

left-foot braking (LFB) is not needed unless you're pushing your car's limits, for instance whilst understeering mid corner LFB can be used to shift weight to the front wheels and tuck the front back into line, also used to save time wasted by changing pedals with your right foot provided no gear changing is required, also used for minimising wheelspin exiting lower speed corners (FWD only), and can be used for trail-braking into a corner (generally AWD).

Practising these tecniques can be dangerous so please use common sense when attempting.

[Jon_51]

spardikis
I thought heal toeing was a very different concept to left foot breaking?
I know I do all my heal toeing with my right foot. Aiming to match engine speed to road speed, so you're into gear quicker & earlier, then if you just clutched up?

t-onedc2
Though I can see what you're saying about using 'lfb'ing' to readjust the weight balance to the front of the ca, using it to control wheelspin seems odd, wouldn't you just use less throttle, or apply it less violently?

[T-onedc2]

.................................
t-onedc2
Though I can see what you're saying about using 'lfb'ing' to readjust the weight balance to the front of the ca, using it to control wheelspin seems odd, wouldn't you just use less throttle, or apply it less violently?
Yeah basically you've gotta do whatever is necessary in a given circumstance. What comes to my mind is a video of a K20A powered EG Civic, being lightweight with an engine with enough instant torque to cause wheel spin or tramp (and therefore understeer) it was necessary to use LFB during 2nd gear on a tight corner exit as the car hadn't straightened up yet.

Does that make sense? I'll try and post the clip of it.:)