Opinions on my planned 12-speaker setup for new 2006 civic

[chylld]

heyas

when i got my 06 the first thing that hit me was: this sound system sucks. i can't quantify how much the stock 4-speaker setup sucks, but i know it's hardly better than the 6-speaker setup i had in my old hyundai getz. so i'm planning a massive upgrade to the following system:

5.1 surround sound decoder
3 2.5" midranges across the dash (left, centre, right)
2 tweeters a bit back from the base of the a-pillar
2 woofers in the front doors
2 2-way speakers for the rear parcel shelf
1 subwoofer in the boot, under the floor
amplification as needed
sound deadening to floor, doors and boot as needed

the reason i want the midranges across the dash is to improve imaging, and help pull the sound forward - at the moment, all the sound is coming from the back due to the positioning of the front woofers. so i'd rather let the front woofers just handle the 80-400hz range where location isn't as important as it is with midrangers and tweeters.

i've 80% decided to commit to this project; if i do i'll have a budget of roughly 3k. with that in mind, i have a few questions:

1) i plan to mount the midranges in the dash, at the base of the windscreen. the speakers will be aimed up toward the windscreen. will the resulting sound be ok? this is a technique that mark levinson uses in lexus cars but i've heard it can make the music sound 'harsh'?

2) is it really worth going the extra for a surround decoder and the centre front speaker? or will left and right woofer-midrange-tweeters be enough?

3) is there a noticeable difference in SQ between say top-of-the-range kenwood/alpine and bottom-of-the-range rockford fosgate / boston acoustics? the price difference is jawdropping!

4) if there is enough space, is it ok to put the tweeters along with the midranges under the tweeter grills at the front left and front right? (is having them too close together a concern?)

5) any other comments?

thanks in advance!

[marte]

Question 2)You don't have too, it sounds like nice setup as is. Are you doing all this just for ur own pleasure or for shows also?

Question 3) Big noticable differance, the clarity, the level of pure bass,how much it can handle etc. how much you put it is what you get out.

[Slow96GSR]

What about processors, Eq's, X-overs? The decoder doesn't do it all. And 3k won't be enought to do it right and get good parts. I would say 1k on speakers easy, x-over is 350aud, eq's are 700aud a pair, depending on what you get, mine are 2 channel so I have 2, wire, amps, sub box, damping material, misc stuff. How about a head unit. I would love to see this happen and how it sounds, little hard in the U.S., but the idea sounds good just need a bit more planning. If you want to see what I would use and do pm me cuz I know most people want the cheapest and stuff they can get there. I tend to lean towards what works best!

[chylld]

marte: i haven't thought about entering into SQ comps, it sounds tempting but i have to say it's mainly for my own listening. i think i might indeed skip the centre channel, 6 front speakers should be enough to create good imaging.

if there really is a noticeable difference in quality of speakers with high-end brands, i'll gladly make the stretch. the last thing i want is to spend $2k more than i need to on a setup that only sounds 2% better :)

Slow96GSR: i think i will exclude the centre channel and thus the need for a surround decoder. for crossovers (for the front 3-way splits) i was hoping to buy a matched set where you get woofer+midrange+tweeter+crossover in one kit - i've seen these around before, just hope that the high-end brands have them. what do i need with respect to processors and eq's?

i know it sounds stupid, but i don't want to change the headunit as i want to keep the stock appearance (also because in the 06 the stereo is integrated into the dash, and the double-din dashpanel doesn't look good to me.) is it ok to just get a good amp with speaker-level inputs? or am i losing serious quality this way?

[micka]

Why do you want 5.1 channel? are you going to watch DVDs or listen to music DVDs in car? I asssume not as you're keeping the OEM CD player.

I think you'd be far better off installing 2-way (or 3-way splits if you so desire up front) and get them as close to perfect as possible, and add a sub as well. Get a 2 channel amp for the fronts, mono block for the sub. Leave the factory rears if you want and run them off the H/U.

Installation will cost a fair bit to get enerything in properly, but if done properly will image and stage extremely well (read a lot better than a half arsed 5.1 setup doing it properly would cost a fortune).

In my opinion (make of it what you will) simplicity is often the key to success, high quality products installed well should sound a lot better than fitting in heaps of lesser quality products.

[mugeneration]

3k wont get you a a very good system. I mean mines just for audio, its set me back almost 2gs, and its all pioneer stuff (i.e. good, but not THAT good). I mean you're going to lose half your budget just getting the DVD HU (sorry, im assuming you'll be running audio visual as you;re talking about getting the center speakers and whatnot). Basically itll get you sumthin good, but not jaw droppingly good. Wish i had 20gs to blow on a sound system lol.

[chylld]

good points guys :) i don't have any intention to play dvd's or surround music, i just wanted a centre front speaker because mark levinson uses one in lexus sound systems to help with the imaging/stereo separation or something. for me, it is, in a word, overkill :)

and micka has a very good point, better to have an 11 speaker setup done well than to have a 12 speaker setup done poorly.

are 3-way splits noticeably better than 2-way splits? the reason i thought 3-ways would be better was to help bring more of the 'image' of the music to the front of the car, because otherwise the midranges would be handled by the front woofers which are all the way down in the doors... or are tweeters up front at the base of the windscreen sufficient to solve the imaging problem? (should i get the biggest tweeters i can find in an effort to get them to cover more of the frequency range?

[micka]

and micka has a very good point, better to have an 11 speaker setup done well than to have a 12 speaker setup done poorly.

To be honest, i'd take it more simple than that. Two way components (or three ways) at the front and a single sub (oem or cheap rears if you want), 2 or 4 channel amp for the fronts, mono amp for the sub.
If you're willing to put the time and cash into proper installation and start with quality gear you should get good results.

Three ways will require a lot more work to install if you really want three ways, perhaps look at something like Dynaudio system 340/360, or a Morel 3 way set including the CDM54; They're a sealed midrange and will mean easier installation as they don't require an enclosure (although it will still be difficult to get "perfect", however the benefits are there). Installation is crucial.

[chylld]

well i've decided what i'm going to do - instead of taking it all in one hit, i'm going to split it up into stages. if at any stage i'm happy enough with the sq, i'll stop there and save myself potentially $k's :)

even though it was fun to think ambitiously at the start, i'll probably end up focusing most of my attention on the front splits since almost everyone agrees that's the most important part of the setup. i haven't decided which ones to get yet, although i have my eye on alpine type-x's (but am more than welcome to other suggestions).

if i really wanted to skimp i'd just wire the splits to the HU and call that the first stage - but i decided that the first stage should include an amp and for that i have my eye on the alpine f345. using this amp i can easily add a sub later on by bridging 3/4. if i then decide to go further and install rear coaxs in the shelf, i'll plug those into 3/4 and get a mono for the sub.

this way i won't waste any money. the only wastage would be if i'm happy enough with just upgrading the splits, in which case i could have gotten by with a smaller/cheaper amp.

however before i buy any audio equipment, my first task hasn't changed: sound proofing. i'm thinking of dynamat in all the doors, the boot and the floor, and extreme liner under the carpet as well. i also might put some more external sound dampening in the wheel wells.

time to action some of this - my girlfriend's starting to get angry at me for spending more time researching rms and spl and not spending enough time with her :P

edit: i'm not sure if the f345 takes speaker-level input - some places say they do but others say they don't. if they don't, i'll get the navone line level adaptor/line driver, only $40 or so and apparently it works quite well. and if i go to upgrade the rears i'll get another one of these for those.

[JaCe]

Stages is definitely what I'd do- I'm just trying to figure out where you plan to install everything; remember that our dear Civic 06 has a very tightly integrated dash and I'm inclined to think any attempt to remove it could have a lot of issues with warranty and safety. My father's friend attempted to remove an integrated dash on another car (can't remember which one) and the dealer refused to service it...

Anyhow, back on topic, if you want to hear RF, check out Lifestyle in Parra- I got my RF sub/amp installed by them and it's fantastic. For one, RF amps look very classy in my opinion;

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1852/photo0118medium4yi.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo0118medium4yi.jpg)

... and the quality is very good. They always seem to understate their specs- for example, my amp was rated at 50 rms per channel, but the testing spec sheet included in the box 98+ rms; nearly double the quoted figure. The subwoofer, whilst low-powered (150w RMS) sounds fantastic. The other thing which they have is a mini equalizer which you install in your car (it's basically a knob which adds "bass" to the EQ)- you'd be surprised how useful this is when you listen to different types of music which require different amounts of bass.

Btw end of year I'm planning on adding some RF splits up front- there's a really good set.. can't remember model number off top of my head but they were 6.5" with twin-tweeters (can be mounted as coaxial+tweeter if you want). Apart from that haven't really planned much more. Will change rear speakers in good time though!

Good luck with your installs- pls post here more! Maybe we can learn a few things from each other's experiences with the 06 Civic.

[chylld]

well i'm a nutter for silence so there's actually a zero stage before the first stage in my post above... sound deadening :) i intend to do all the doors, the floor and the boot with about 2 bulk packs of dynamat extreme, and also put extreme liner under the carpet and after that, maybe spray a bit more sound dampening into the wheel wells (if needed). that'll cost me about $1k all up, i intend to do it myself though once i figure out how to take the car apart properly!

i think the RF splits you're referring to are the P162S - i have my eye on those as well :)

[JaCe]

Haha yep that's the model.

Although wait until you hear it in person... there are some other speakers in that price range which are quite good (MB Quart something arather Discus?; and Boston Acoustics S60)... the S60s are definitely the inferior in this comparison but the cheapest I'd say; as for MB Quart and the RF P162S- they produce different sound... I'd say the RF is sharper; whereas the MB Quart sounds more balanced? I guess with an EQ and tuning they'll both be very capable speakers. If you can save up a bit more; the $1000-range speakers sound considerably better than these- and might even save you money/effort by reducing the number of speakers you need. I'm inclined to think 12 speakers will be a hassle both to install and to figure out where to put 'em when for the same budget you could get better speakers with simialr results.

[chylld]

i'll definitely have to give both the RF and MB's a listen then :) it's good to have some other speakers to compare to, i'd have no idea which one fits where (in the product/quality line that is)

is there a good website somewhere that has price listings? or is it a case of physically shopping around? i know i'd have to anyway to audition the speakers, but if i can find a reasonably accurate price list somewhere it'll help me narrow down what i look for.

also jace, the links you posted before for taking apart the civic doors, there seems to be quite a difference with the aus model and i can't figure out how to remove the door panel - do you have any tips? (or anyone else for that matter?)

[JaCe]

In my experience, the prices you get from catalogues or on websites is very different to what they'll tell you if you go in store. For example, the telephone price that Lifestyle gave me on the Boston Pro60 (some bloody kickass speakers) was $1100, but then they said they'd negotiate it down to $900 since I was also getting them to install it for me- but then, I ended up going for the subwoofer option. I'll wait until later in the year and then go for some pro speakers perhaps.

Also if you go to Lifestyle (I know I promote them alot- but they did a great job; various ppl have complimented my engine bay on the clean/professionalism of their install), they have a listening room which is really good to listen to. It's alot better than the ones in JB/Strathfield which are quite open air- this one is designed for listening to high quality music. Bear in mind though that the subwoofers there sound considerably louder than they will in real life when you're driving because for one, there's road noise/car noise, and secondly, in a car, there's alot more things in between you and the subwoofer than in the room (where it's just there).

Another thing you can do is look up American prices on those sites which list prices from various retailers but bear in mind, their discounted prices will be about the same as our heavily discounted prices because alot of these things are produced locally for them so it's much cheaper to begin with.

As for the taking apart the Civic doors- sorry, I can't find much info for you. I only stumbled upon that when I was finding info about the 8th gen Civic. IMO you might want to consider getting it professionally done since the car is so new and under warranty- not to mention there's a good chance you could screw it up since this car seems quite advanced with the integrated dash and all (nb. this is a n00b's overly cautious opinion here).

Oh and one more thing, in terms of quality line... check out the brochures for the different brands. I'm not sure about Boston (but I'm sure they have a brochure) but RF and MB have pretty nice brochures and you can pretty much tell which ones are where in the price line... for example in MB, the Discus is the last thing mentioned in the brochure and at the bottom of the table of comparison (and also has the worst specs) so I'm inclined to think they're the cheapest (which they are); and similarly, the RF stuff, the further back in the brochure they are, I think the cheaper they are (you can also see the specs declining). Also, for RF, "Punch" stuff tends to be the common/cheaper one, whereas 'Power" is the really expensive gear. Can't confirm any of these details, but this is based on logical assumptions based on placement in brochure (they wouldn't put the cheapest up front?) and observations. MB also always says that the speakers use technology which was first pioneered in their premium line; so I'm guessing that indicates the Premium lines are superior to the Discus, etc...

Btw I picked up the brochures from Lifestyle but I think you can find 'em online too on the respective websites.

[chylld]

well i found info for taking apart not just the civic's doors, but pretty much the whole car! there's more than enough info in the official accessory installation instructions which you can find at collegehillshonda.com :)

it's for the american version of the car, but it would be largely the same i imagine. this find has been a godsend for me since now i know how to literally get under the carpet of my car to do some full-body sound deadening!

wrt sound system, it looks like i'll have to head down to lifestyle sometime on the weekend, they obviously know what they're doing and i'd be happy to buy stuff from them... although i might try to install the stuff myself. more satisfaction that way :) (although could be more drama if i stuff it up)

[integraz]

i think you should also try Doran pro audio in bankstown, they would do good stuff and are pretty good on prices, and have a much larger range compared to lifestyle store,
don't get me wrong, lifestyle store are good as well (i bought a punch RF stage 1 sub) but they mainly sell RF, and just a few other brands, whereas doran has a nice wide selection.

And yes try those mb quarts very nice sound.

[JaCe]

Yeh they seem to focus on RF (judging by their workshop and posters!), but they also have most of the MB and BA range I think... there's barely any of the cheap stuff though (ie. not many Sony, Pioneer, Clarion, etc...).

Btw integraz- how do you find the P1? I'm starting to wonder if I should've spent an extra $100 on the P2 >< ... the P1 is good, but the soundproofness of my Civic stops the P1 from being heard outside much (hooked up to a P4004 with rating of 98+ RMS per chan).

[integraz]

well p1 sounds alright, i know for a fact that they need a really big sealed box something like 90-100L sealed or something near free air, yes i know thats huge even for sealed, but thats what they prefer for an "optimum" box ( using sub box program)

However going against what i just said, i put mine in a 50L ported box tuned to 33Hz ( the box is for a pioneer 306c) , and its in a starlet so its hatch, and therfore goes louder than sedans anyway. cause it directly shootin in the cabin.

Um how many watss are u putting through the sub? Are channels 3 & 4, bridged? and are channels 1 and 2 for the front speakers?

ive got ~180wrms, and its loud ( enough to make my rear view useless), it can go louder with maybe 300WRMS but i wouldnt put any more. And yes i believe you should've gone with just and extra 100 for p2, much different sub.

But all in all the p1 aint that bad, i reckon if you are putting onli around 200WRMS it is a very efficient sub, even though it has an effiency for 86db?
Well comparing with the pioneer 306c.


philz

Edit: looked at amp specs i think its 200wrms bridged, and on the birth sheet it should be more? so i assume thats more than enough for the sub.

[chylld]

... the P1 is good, but the soundproofness of my Civic stops the P1 from being heard outside much...

are you referring to the stock level of soundproofing, or did you have aftermarket soundproofing done?

[SKREMN]

Hey ive got 8 speakers in my car not including tweeters
2 6" splits in each door and 2 6" 2ways in each rear quaters
i have got the pioneer in dash unit wiht 5.1 surround output
i considerd hooking it up to a small centre speaker but its a waste as it only works when playing dvd's and not with normal music

i also used alot of deadoning
sprayed on fron the doors badkwards stripped the whole interior
added about 30kg's to the car
and inside the doors I used the stick on mat type

[JaCe]

I'm using chan 1 & 2 bridged for the sub- but at 98w rms each, that's nearly 200watts going to the P1. It's good enough I think; but P2 probably would be alot louder? *shrugs*

And I'm talking just stock Civic.. like with the doors all shut, windows up, boot lid shut, etc... not that much noise escapes (in comparison to our Mazda and Daihatsu). Of course it's got nothing on the silence from the BMW and Benz... but, it's surprisingly good. Although me being the ricer wannabe I am- this might not be such a good thing!

NB. Take into account that the P1 isn't that loud.

[JaCe]

Back on topic (sorry for double post but.. wanted to bump this);

Does it count as 11 speakers if say... you have a normal Civic with 4 speakers (no tweeters). Then you replace the 2 front speakers with speakers with twin tweeters (ie. effectively 6 speakers incl. 4 tweeters), and replace rear ones with components (ie. effectively 4 speakers incl. 2 tweeters), and then add a subwoofer?

[chylld]

Does it count as 11 speakers if say... you have a normal Civic with 4 speakers (no tweeters). Then you replace the 2 front speakers with speakers with twin tweeters (ie. effectively 6 speakers incl. 4 tweeters), and replace rear ones with components (ie. effectively 4 speakers incl. 2 tweeters), and then add a subwoofer?

i think so. that's the way lexus counts their speakers :)

[integraz]

well it depends on HOW U Count how many speakers in there, i wouldn't count the tweeters, but every single manufacture seems to count tweeters... welll they are speakers. LOL

If i had a system i would tell someone, i have ie/ 4 speakers and two tweeters.

[arverson]

does it even matter?? not like ur gonna go around telling ppl 'my 11speaker system sh*%ts on ur 4.1 system' issert??

longs each part of ur system is quality & tuned well.

for the record, a tweeter IS a speaker. so is a midrange/midbass woofer. n a subby. so this:
Today 12:08 AM
JaCe
Back on topic (sorry for double post but.. wanted to bump this);

Does it count as 11 speakers if say... you have a normal Civic with 4 speakers (no tweeters). Then you replace the 2 front speakers with speakers with twin tweeters (ie. effectively 6 speakers incl. 4 tweeters), and replace rear ones with components (ie. effectively 4 speakers incl. 2 tweeters), and then add a subwoofer?


would b a 8.1 speaker system. (pair of splits/components up front(2 woofers+2tweeters), pair of splits/components in the rear (2 woofers+2tweeters), & a subby

[JaCe]

Nah that wasn't the point of me saying that... I was actually thinking if this guy was gonna go out and put 12 speakers in his car (for whatever reason), then maybe he might wanna go the route of using tweeters/coaxial layout so that he doesn't need to make new speaker moulds/holes?

Btw wouldn't that be 10.1 though because the front will have twin-tweeter speakers (ie. 4 total)?

[arverson]

yer i guess. only cus i thought he was gonna b REPLACING the stocks with aftermarket gear. y would u leave anything stock?? more speakers aint better. meh, i didnt read the whole thread, wateva chylld does is up to them

[JaCe]

I also don't know why he wants 12 speakers... I personally think he'd be better off using the money from buying 12 average speakers to just replace existing ones with some good quality speakers and using the tweeter slots in the Civic (which are unused in Australian Civics). He could add a centre speaker if he really wanted to do 5.1; but I don't think there'd be much use going much further than that- especially since it'll be harder to fit the extra speakers as opposed to just using the stock slots.

[chylld]

i am gonna be replacing the stock speakers... first step will be to throw away the stock fronts and get some nice splits to replace them.

only ones i'm not sure about at this stage are the ones in the rear deck, i plan to leave those stock as they're only there to provide some rear fill anyway. if i find they're really hurting the SQ then i'll upgrade them but meh.

[chylld]

I also don't know why he wants 12 speakers...

yeh i decided not long after starting this thread that 12 speakers would have been overkill... also as micka said on the first page:


simplicity is often the key to success, high quality products installed well should sound a lot better than fitting in heaps of lesser quality products.

[JaCe]

i am gonna be replacing the stock speakers... first step will be to throw away the stock fronts and get some nice splits to replace them.

only ones i'm not sure about at this stage are the ones in the rear deck, i plan to leave those stock as they're only there to provide some rear fill anyway. if i find they're really hurting the SQ then i'll upgrade them but meh.

I'm planning to leave my rears stock for now- it's quite low on the priority list. Plan to change the fronts to the RF twin-tweeter splits soon though to make full use of my 4ch amp. If adding rear speakers, I'd have to amp them and that would require me to purchase a monoblock amp (i'd move my sub from the 4ch to the mono) so the cost would be quite significant for what I think would be a small increase in SQ (for the driver anyway).