Driving manual....

[anfz]

Hey guys I know there where a few threads on this but nothing really helped answer my question, so I just wondering how many hours of driving manual did you have till you felt completely confident in every aspect ?
also when you guys change gears from say 4th to 3rd or 4th to 2nd why is it that i feel alot of engine compression happening sort of like it pulls ya back a bit, its not a smooth change over if you know what i mean ? How do i minimize that ? thanks for help

[Q_ball]

How many hours till confident:
Cant really answer that, every single person is different. For me to tell u that i felt comfortable after x amount of hrs would jst lead you to believe that you would feel the same too.
Do whats recommended of you prior to goin for your P's - in NSW, its 50hrs of driving. Double check with the Victorian equivalent of the RTA.

Shifting down:
When you shift down a gear, in particular two gears, you feel a lot of "compression" (as you put it), as this is the engine brake. Gearing down assists in the cars braking process. (NB: There are other reasons why you would gear down, but considering this is regarding a new driver, we wont go into those details...jst focus on gear down as a form of braking).
Id recommend people use the engine brake more when trying to slow down, rather than jst popping the car in neutral as it not only helps slow the car down, but allows you to maintain full control of it, but it also takes a portion of the stress away from your brakes as well.
To minimise the jerking sensation when gearing down, try to avoid releasing the clutch too early. Keep the clutch 1/2 engaged, ride it a bit until u feel that gear start to bite, then slowly release the clutch.
This should help u smooth out your driving. :)

[CRXer]

Just stick at it,dont doubt yourself,it will all just come to you one day.
It would also help if u understand whats going on at your clutch plate at the time,so read something simple like this,

How clutches work (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch.htm)

it all made sense to me when my dad explained how it works & i then knew what i was trying to achieve.

It also helps to have a car with a tacho installed to see whats going on.

But in short when u take the foot of the throttle the engine drops near idling revs,say 1000rpm, & the clutch is still doing say maybe 4000rpm so your trying to make the two meet with too much difference in momentum.

To fix this difference in momentum,2 things can be done at this basic stage,either wait until the speed of the car has dropped more b4 engaging the clutch,and dont jump off the clutch too fast until u get the hang of it, thus matching the engine speed more or 2,bring up the engine speed with the throttle to match the car speed b4 engaging.

Go & practice this with no traffic or other around & you'll have it no time,but remember b4 doing this constantly,when braking in a straight line with no great urgency,using the clutch all the time to help slow u down is gonna wear it out faster & brake pads are a lot cheaper & easier to replace then a clutch!

Once you master all this its time to move on to heel toein where you blip the throttle with the same foot as the one used for braking,ie both pedals pressed with the right foot while the left handles clutch duties.Dont learn this in traffic i've seen some nasty results.

[Q_ball]

I think it should also be stressed that cruising in neutral, or engagin the clutch during a turn can be dangerous.
I'd strongly recommend that you DONT learn and get into the bad habit of slowing down by poppin it into neutral and jst gliding to a stop.
Bad habits are VERY hard to stamp out.
Always have your car in gear is my recommendation.

[marte]

yeah always have it in gear. you can break in emergenccies when required.
only time i have it in neautral is slowing down from gear one, cause less then 20kms isnt so bad.

[CRXer]

Will have to remember who to listen to when getting advice on clutch mileage..........

[dsp26]

i bought my first car.. a turbo GT starlet with precious money i had saved up... i learned how to drive it with the owner for 3hrs that night...

it is not really about learning to drive it straight out... THINK ABOUT how a MANUAL car works from engine to transmission to wheels....

WARNING!!! the above mentality only works for some people, it is like buying a $1000 electric guitar while really only knowning the basics of an acoustic... you realise you spent the money and hence are forced to want to learn

[aaronng]

I learnt to drive in a manual and then drove autos for 7 years. When I got back into a manual, it took about 1 week to get completely comfortable and an additional month to smoothen out all the bad habits.

You feel the compression because you did not blip the throttle to rev match when you released the clutch. So what is happening is that you are slipping the clutch until the speed of the engine matches the speed of the transmission. It is bad. Next time when you down shift, you try giving the accelerator a little blip before you release the clutch. If you do it right, you won't feel any compression at all.

[CRXer]

WARNING!!! the above mentality only works for some people, it is like buying a $1000 electric guitar while really only knowning the basics of an acoustic... you realise you spent the money and hence are forced to want to learn

.......???..what does this even mean b4 u explain anything else............

[tRipitaka]

Do whats recommended of you prior to goin for your P's - in NSW, its 50hrs of driving. Double check with the Victorian equivalent of the RTA.

VIC = 120 hours :eek:

[sassy_fit_vtit]

take it easy, i found that i knew how to drive properly in manual BUT the only thing that stoped me from doing the right thing was that i was soo caught up about doing the wrong thing that i made myself stress over nothing, take a breather and do things in your own times, some people pick things up quicker then others.

[dsp26]

.......???..what does this even mean b4 u explain anything else............

lol its just an anlogy of my first paragraph. i bought a turbo manual without any real experience... but because i had already bought it gfor a significant amount of cash it gave me that extra push to learn manual properly.

but as you said earlier, actually understanding how a manual works is the key. most manual driving instructors have the step by step diagrams on paper for you to read through on your first lesson...

as for instructors theres no point learning manual straight up... i tried and failed miserably. you have to focus on car control as well as clutch + pedals and it gets a bit too much for an absolute beginner. got my auto license and drove auto for 6 moths while i thought about how manual works... day came to buy the car and all went sweet.

You know when you mastered it when your sweet on taking off from a stop start on up hills as well as reverse parallel parking while up/downhill....

[norma]

rev-match when changing down gears. ;)

[|N|]

rev-match when changing down gears. ;)


norma ... we not a pro like u la... sorry

[Limbo]

Hardest part is getting out of 1st gear. Once you can do that go practice on a hill, if you can get these 2 things down you should be quite confident in driving manual. All the rest is pretty much thte same as driving auto, except when you start double clutching.

[Q_ball]

A driver that's not competant at down shifting smoothly imo, should not even attempt to rev match or heal toe LOL
Might end up ramming up some guys ass :p

[Zdster]

A driver that's not competant at down shifting smoothly imo, should not even attempt to rev match or heal toe LOL
Might end up ramming up some guys ass :p

I agree. At this early point, you should focus like others have said on smoothly changing through gears. When I taught one of my family members how to drive a manual, I got them to start on wide, straight roads where they could practice clutch control. Once you master how and when to release the clutch (ie what rpm's etc) then the rest is all pretty straight forward. It is just a question of then listening to your engine and shifting at the approptiate point.

[Zilli]

when in doubt

i pput the clutch in, rev it until its valve bouncing and let the clutch out

did i mention i lost my license recently

heheheh

nah man, its like anything, it just takes practise... its good that people have posted places where you can gain an understanding of what exactly is happening when your pressing the clutch in... when you learn to modulat the clutch and gas, youll be able to make things much smoother, it just takes time

[anfz]

thanks guys for all your help,so let me get this right all i have to do is let the clutch out more gently than usual and it should be a smoother transition ? also guys when your coming up to a corner to turn do you change gears much before the turn or as your going into the turn ? thx again

[Q_ball]

thanks guys for all your help,so let me get this right all i have to do is let the clutch out more gently than usual and it should be a smoother transition ? also guys when your coming up to a corner to turn do you change gears much before the turn or as your going into the turn ? thx again
Basically, yes.
For a smoother gear change, release the clutch slower, dont drop it.
As for when to change gears when approaching a corner, ALWAYS change BEFORE the corner.
NEVER change gears during a corner. The time u spend on the clutch basically gives u less control of the car.

[anfz]

thanks q ball for explaining that but theres one thing I dont understand and its this rev matching,double clutching thing.How does that work say im in 4th gear going at 80km and want to go into 2nd at like 40km,What steps are involved ?

[gnx1987]

I agree with crxer. Once you learn how the transmission works, it makes driving manual heaps easier. Also most of what I'm about to say is probably obvious to most people but I've stated the obvious to make the other parts easier to understand for the people who don't know manual. To skip all this obvious crap go the section numbered with a 2.

Basically all you need to know is that you've got engine, clutch, input shaft (gear set 1), output shaft (gear set 2), diff and wheels.

When the gearbox is in neutral you've seperated the input shaft from the output shaft. When you put it in gear the input shaft is then connected to the output shaft, the diff, then the wheels and also the weight of the car which is about a ton. So this is why you need to either have the clutch in or the gear box in neutral or both, because otherwise the starter motor is going to want move the car which is not good for the starter motor and also the fact that you might hit the car that may or may not be in front or behind you.

When you put the clutch in you've seperated the engine from the gear box. When it comes to releasing the clutch, I can't think of an example of what it's like but it's basically a really strong spring. So when the car is in gear (input shaft connected to output shaft) and the clutch first makes contact with the fly wheel, the engine isn't going to stall because there's not a lot of pressure on it but the the engine will start to lose revs because the weight of the stationary car is to much for the low amount of torque the engine is producing at low revs. So the more you let the clutch out your putting more pressure on the flywheel which is causing the engine to want to match the speed of what the clutch is connected to which is the input shaft which is then the output shaft then the diff then the wheels and the weight of the car which is to much for the engine so it stalls.

So obviously to counteract this, you give the engine a bit of throttle to stop it from stalling. The car then starts to move and you release the clutch more to speed up the transmission of power to the wheels. This may be a bit to much for the motor and it may lose revs again, so you give more throttle to speed the motor up again. Continue this till you've completely released the clutch and the car is traveling smoothly.

When changing gears you no doubt know you don't have to perform the above procedure, but I'll cover it anyway so you know why you don't have to.

Basically it's because the car is already moving and if you just release the clutch, the engine is going to match the speed of the input shaft which is connected to the output shaft then the diff then the wheels and chances are thats going to make the engine rev at a speed which is higher than stall speed unless you do something stupid like shifting at 900 rpm in first then to fifth.

2. Now that you know all that, here's my explanation of why you get that "engine compression" when down shifting which you may have worked out anyway if you read the afore mentioned lesson.

When you go from 4th to 3rd you speed up the input shaft which will spin faster because of the gear ratio. Example: You know how on a bike when you make the gears on the on the pedal end smaller, and the gears on the rear wheel end bigger, it makes you need to pedal faster. The same thing happens to the motor when you release the clutch. Now if you haven't "blipped" the throttle, the motor won't be spining at the same speed as the input shaft for two reasons. The input shaft is spinning faster than what it was when you were in fourth plus the time you had the clutch in, gave the motor time to lose revs.

So lets say when the engine is revving along at 2000 rpm, the input shaft is also spinning that fast. Now when you go from 4th to 3rd, you put the clutch in and then you shift the gear stick from 4th to 3rd. Now when you do that, the input shaft changes to a smaller gear while the output shaft changes to bigger gear which in turn causes the input shaft to go from about 2000 rpm to about 2500 rpm. Now while your doing that (and if you haven't blipped the throttle), engine revs will decrease depending on how long you have the clutch out. Now when you let the clutch out, the weight of your car is superior to your engine because the engine is almost a free spinning unit, so the 2500 rpm input shaft basically being connected to the weight of the car is going to try to make the engine match those revs. Now for that to happen the engine has to be able to spin that fast, which also means it has to be able to suck in air that fast, which is incredibly hard to do when its trying to suck it through about a 2-3 millimetre hole (this is the hole in the throttle butterfly that allows the car to idle. Without this hole, no air, no idle).

So if you want to counteract this engine braking procedure, you want to match the engine revs to the revs of the input shaft. So when you shift from 4th to 3rd give the accelerator a mild push with your right boot then let the clutch out before the engine slows down again. If you did this right the car should hardly jerk if at all when you release the clutch. This takes practice. If you can do this almost perfectly on your first try well done. The same applies to lower gears like from fourth to third, except obviously the input shaft is going to be spinning even faster than what it would be if you were doing a 4th to 3rd shift so therefore you need to give the throttle a bit of a bigger "blip".

Anyway have fun practising that, then one day you can try heel and toe (using your right foot to brake and blip the throttle at the same time). It's not neccessary to know how to heel and toe. It's more of a racing tactic but it will make your driving experience a lot smoother.

[Q_ball]

I agree with crxer. Once you learn how the transmission works, it makes driving manual heaps easier. Also most of what I'm about to say is probably obvious to most people but I've stated the obvious to make the other parts easier to understand for the people who don't know manual. To skip all this obvious crap go the section numbered with a 2.

Basically all you need to know is that you've got engine, clutch, input shaft (gear set 1), output shaft (gear set 2), diff and wheels.

When the gearbox is in neutral you've seperated the input shaft from the output shaft. When you put it in gear the input shaft is then connected to the output shaft, the diff, then the wheels and also the weight of the car which is about a ton. So this is why you need to either have the clutch in or the gear box in neutral or both, because otherwise the starter motor is going to want move the car which is not good for the starter motor and also the fact that you might hit the car that may or may not be in front or behind you.

When you put the clutch in you've seperated the engine from the gear box. When it comes to releasing the clutch, I can't think of an example of what it's like but it's basically a really strong spring. So when the car is in gear (input shaft connected to output shaft) and the clutch first makes contact with the fly wheel, the engine isn't going to stall because there's not a lot of pressure on it but the the engine will start to lose revs because the weight of the stationary car is to much for the low amount of torque the engine is producing at low revs. So the more you let the clutch out your putting more pressure on the flywheel which is causing the engine to want to match the speed of what the clutch is connected to which is the input shaft which is then the output shaft then the diff then the wheels and the weight of the car which is to much for the engine so it stalls.

So obviously to counteract this, you give the engine a bit of throttle to stop it from stalling. The car then starts to move and you release the clutch more to speed up the transmission of power to the wheels. This may be a bit to much for the motor and it may lose revs again, so you give more throttle to speed the motor up again. Continue this till you've completely released the clutch and the car is traveling smoothly.

When changing gears you no doubt know you don't have to perform the above procedure, but I'll cover it anyway so you know why you don't have to.

Basically it's because the car is already moving and if you just release the clutch, the engine is going to match the speed of the input shaft which is connected to the output shaft then the diff then the wheels and chances are thats going to make the engine rev at a speed which is higher than stall speed unless you do something stupid like shifting at 900 rpm in first then to fifth.

2. Now that you know all that, here's my explanation of why you get that "engine compression" when down shifting which you may have worked out anyway if you read the afore mentioned lesson.

When you go from 4th to 3rd you speed up the input shaft which will spin faster because of the gear ratio. Example: You know how on a bike when you make the gears on the on the pedal end smaller, and the gears on the rear wheel end bigger, it makes you need to pedal faster. The same thing happens to the motor when you release the clutch. Now if you haven't "blipped" the throttle, the motor won't be spining at the same speed as the input shaft for two reasons. The input shaft is spinning faster than what it was when you were in fourth plus the time you had the clutch in, gave the motor time to lose revs.

So lets say when the engine is revving along at 2000 rpm, the input shaft is also spinning that fast. Now when you go from 4th to 3rd, you put the clutch in and then you shift the gear stick from 4th to 3rd. Now when you do that, the input shaft changes to a smaller gear while the output shaft changes to bigger gear which in turn causes the input shaft to go from about 2000 rpm to about 2500 rpm. Now while your doing that (and if you haven't blipped the throttle), engine revs will decrease depending on how long you have the clutch out. Now when you let the clutch out, the weight of your car is superior to your engine because the engine is almost a free spinning unit, so the 2500 rpm input shaft basically being connected to the weight of the car is going to try to make the engine match those revs. Now for that to happen the engine has to be able to spin that fast, which also means it has to be able to suck in air that fast, which is incredibly hard to do when its trying to suck it through about a 2-3 millimetre hole (this is the hole in the throttle butterfly that allows the car to idle. Without this hole, no air, no idle).

So if you want to counteract this engine braking procedure, you want to match the engine revs to the revs of the input shaft. So when you shift from 4th to 3rd give the accelerator a mild push with your right boot then let the clutch out before the engine slows down again. If you did this right the car should hardly jerk if at all when you release the clutch. This takes practice. If you can do this almost perfectly on your first try well done. The same applies to lower gears like from fourth to third, except obviously the input shaft is going to be spinning even faster than what it would be if you were doing a 4th to 3rd shift so therefore you need to give the throttle a bit of a bigger "blip".

Anyway have fun practising that, then one day you can try heel and toe (using your right foot to brake and blip the throttle at the same time). It's not neccessary to know how to heel and toe. It's more of a racing tactic but it will make your driving experience a lot smoother.
In lamans terms plz...
HAHAHA
Ok, please keep in mind that we're helping a "noob" driver manual better! :p
You may want to make you responses a little simpler and easy to understand.

[Zdster]

I agree with crxer. Once you learn how the transmission works, it makes driving manual heaps easier. Also most of what I'm about to say is probably obvious to most people but I've stated the obvious to make the other parts easier to understand for the people who don't know manual. To skip all this obvious crap go the section numbered with a 2.


That is an excellent post gnx1987. Plus PQ points for you. To simplify what you are saying, the engine and gearbox can spin seperatly from each other. By engaging/disengaging the clutch, you are linking the engine and gearbox together so that they can spin in unisun. The trick is to match/get the right timing of when to engage the clutch and change gears so that everything spins together.

As I (and others stated earlier) practice on flat, level ground engage the clutch and changing between first/second and neutral. Then step up to downshifting, which with practice, can be done smoothly ;).

[anfz]

thanks gnx1987 great explanation so are these the correct steps to rev matching say Im im in 4th and want to go down to 3rd basically i clutch in and whilst its clutched in i rev it abit than take foot of gas than pop it into 3rd is that right ? If not can you give me the step by step guide to doing this ? but in general if you dont rev match when downshifting it will pull ya back unless you let up the clutch very slowly ? Do most people that drive manual rev match or not really ? once again thx

[tRipitaka]

clutch in
shift to lower gear
blip
clutch out

revmatching will save unnecessary strain on the clutch

[Q_ball]

^Drinks more petrol tho :)

[anfz]

Do you still have to slowly lift your foot off the clutch or you can do it quicker? because whats the difference between normal downshifting and rev matching etc ?do most of you guys use this method or ?

[aaronng]

Ok, in order to get a smooth downshift, you have to rev match. You don't learn to downshift smoothly first and then learn to rev match. You learn to rev match first. If you are downshifting smoothly using the clutch alone, then that is wearing your clutch out, and.... cheating. If you can upshift smoothly, then the problem with your downshift is not because of clutch control, but because you're not revmatching.

Forget double clutch and heel toe now. Just concentrate on the basics. And that includes rev matching. You just press the clutch in, go from 4th to 3rd, tap the throttle once and release clutch at normal speed. With practice, you'll be able to tap the throttle such that you have just enough revs. But at the moment, just practice the sequence.

[anfz]

So everyone who drives a manual car does rev matching is that right ? because when i had a few manual lessons the instructors never mentioned anything like it at all ? Thats why im so confused ,at the moment this is what i have understood, if you dont rev match when downshifting you put more strain on your clutch and etc plus its not as smooth as rev matching whereas with rev matching its much more smoother and less wear and tear on engine and parts Am i on the right track here ?

[tRipitaka]

and to downshift when overtaking,
you don't blip, u just press and keep going ? can someone confirm whether this is right ?

[roar]

driving instructors don't really teach you how to drive...they teach you how to pass youre test...

okay...once you are confident with your manual skills (ie. upshift/downshifting without revmatching/hillstarts/accelerating from a standing stop)
hen try to work in revmatching...

start with what was said b4, with
clutch in
shift to lower gear
blip
clutch out

but over time you'll want to perfect this and you'll find that it may look something more like this
clutch in
once your past the friction point of the clutch you're already starting to shift the gearstick and press the throttle all at the same time
then clutch out

so what it'll feel like is as if you are pressing down on the clutch and accelerator at the same time...

another note is that the amount you need to lift the revs is different from gear to gear. This is due to the difference in the gear ratios...

in your typical car for example, downshifting from 5th to 4th requires just a touch of throttle to match the revs...however downshifting while revmatching from 2nd to 1st (which rarely needs to be down) requires you to greatly increase the revs...

the more perfect you can match the revs of the engine to that of your transmission, the quicker you can clutch out while remaining smooth

when you first try this...you won't be smooth, far from it, but it doesn't take long for it to become a smooth process from any downshift, then after a while it becomes second nature...after a lot of practice you should be able to upshift and downshift without feeling any accel/deccel forces

and yes this may waste more petrol (hardly any i'd say), but it saves your clutch and offers you another element of control...

[mrwillz]

do u guys ride the clutch in so u dont feel the clutch bite as hard (wen changingn gears) eg. ease the gear change wif clutch
does this help in preserving the clutch life?

i've gotten into the habit nowadays of jus lettin the clutch bite in quick so theres somewhat less 'lag'

[aaronng]

do u guys ride the clutch in so u dont feel the clutch bite as hard (wen changingn gears) eg. ease the gear change wif clutch
does this help in preserving the clutch life?

i've gotten into the habit nowadays of jus lettin the clutch bite in quick so theres somewhat less 'lag'
I let the clutch out fast, at the same speed that I press it in. For upshift, I'm used to the rpm dropping so I can get it almost right most of the time, while for downshift, I blip the throttle and let it out just as fast. No riding of the clutch at all if I can help it.

[norma]

So everyone who drives a manual car does rev matching is that right ? because when i had a few manual lessons the instructors never mentioned anything like it at all ? Thats why im so confused ,at the moment this is what i have understood, if you dont rev match when downshifting you put more strain on your clutch and etc plus its not as smooth as rev matching whereas with rev matching its much more smoother and less wear and tear on engine and parts Am i on the right track here ?

Not everyone who drives manual rev-matches. But to answer your original question about how to change down gears more smoothly without that 'jerky' feeling, it would be to rev-match.

I know alot of people who learnt to rev-match while they were learning to drive, some who learnt after. And some people who simply don't rev-match at all.

You are on the right track with the pros of rev-matching, but it doesn't matter if you don't master it, because you're not doing major damage/wear/tear to your car when you're not rev-matching. If you're still uneasy about normal driving, then learn it later.

I know you've had a few explanations, but I have a really simple way to explain rev-matching to my learning-manual friends. . .

Obviously in your car there's two main big gauges, one is the speed, and the other is the revs. The revs shows how much you're accelerating. (Obviously, sorry to be tedious. etc. bare with me.)

Notice how the revs change if you're travelling 70km/hr in 2nd gear to when you're travelling the same speed in 3rd, 4th etc? You will learn that the lower the gear you are in, the higher the rev's will be at the same speed. . .

So say you're in 4th gear at 70km/hr and your rev's are at 3000rpm.
And normally when you're in 3rd gear at 70km/hr, your rev's are at 4500rpm.

When you change down from 4th to 3rd, the rev's will drop and you will feel a slight jerk. So, to try and keep the rev's even and make the change down-gear feel more smooth, you blip the acceleration pedal a little to raise the rev's to even it out to what it would be in a lower gear.. make sense?

Seriously though, because none of us know how well your driving capabilities really are at the moment, and whether it's dangerous for you to drive around trying to learn how to rev-match on the streets...just take it easy because it's not the be-all and end-all. A little jerk when downshifting isn't going to do severe damage to anything, so just be safe and wait till you feel you're confident with all your driving, and judge for yourself when you want to try rev-matching, and all that. Each person to his/her own driving capabilities eh? I didn't rev-match until I had driven my car for 2 years. And there's nothing wrong with my tranny and I still have a stock clutch. Some people don't ever rev-match. So ..yeah. :) Good Luck.

[anfz]

thanks norma thats the best explanation Ive understood up to now,just to give ya an update went for a drive tonight and was trying it quite often, and what happens is i dont feel no jerking, but the rev meter goes up quite abit,im guessing i should give less gas, also how do i know exactly if im doing it right ? I did it in this order, say im in 4th gear going into 3rd
1) clutch in
2)slip it into 3rd
3)whilst holding down the clutch still i give a bit of gas
4)as im giving a bit of gas i release the clutch up

hopefully thats right ?

[aaronng]

3)whilst holding down the clutch still i give a bit of gas
4)as im giving a bit of gas i release the clutch up

hopefully thats right ?
Well, this is one way of doing it if you want a downshift and accelerate off as quickly as possible. ;)

While doing this, do you feel any jerkiness when you release the clutch quickly? It doesn't matter if your tacho shoots up high. You know you are at the right RPM if you release the clutch quickly and it is relatively smooth.

I just blip the throttle, I don't hold it unless I want a fast getaway.

[anfz]

I havent tried it aaronng with releasing the clutch very quickly,Ill keep that in mind next time,Ive also heard of the term double clutching what exactly is that ,is that the same as rev matching? what benefits are there to that ?

[roar]

double clutching...

on downshift
1) clutch in and move gear stick to neutral
2) clutch out
3) blip throttle
4) clutch in and change to the lower gear
5) clutch out

benefits - for a normal everyday car...not alot
it becomes useful for transmissions where the gear synchros are starting to wear or there are no synchros (ie a truck transmission)

double clutching matches the revs of the internal gears to each other

[anfz]

So its pretty much the same as rev matching as it does the same thing is that right ?

[roar]

it reduces the slight jumpiness you may feel...and theoretically, it is the best way to shift in order to preserve your synchros

the reason for this is because when you are in neutral without depressing the clutch...the clutch is still connected to the input shaft...

so the clutch can be spun up to the right speed as well

contrary to alot of belief double clutching can also be done on upshifts as well...
where you give a pause in order for the revs to drop before proceeding to shift up

[EK4R]

rather then confusion and explaination, try here guys, mite clear a few things up before you ask the question.

Video of basic manual driving and techniques (double clutch, hill-toe,rev-match) http://www.standardshift.com/videos.html
(NOTE: the above site has a nice little forum too, worth checking it out)

now heres my questions. when i upshift, i tend to add gas while i let off clutch, anything wrong with this? i get a very smooth upshift though. or do you guys let out clutch all the way before you add gas?

[czy_sol87]

rather then confusion and explaination, try here guys, mite clear a few things up before you ask the question.

Video of basic manual driving and techniques (double clutch, hill-toe,rev-match) http://www.standardshift.com/videos.html
(NOTE: the above site has a nice little forum too, worth checking it out)

now heres my questions. when i upshift, i tend to add gas while i let off clutch, anything wrong with this? i get a very smooth upshift though. or do you guys let out clutch all the way before you add gas?
yeh thats what i do as well, was taught to give a little gas to make the shift more smoother

[aaronng]

So its pretty much the same as rev matching as it does the same thing is that right ?
Rev matching saves your clutch, double clutching saves your synchros. With double clutching you just put the gear in to neutral and release the clutch. (blip throttle here if you have to) Then press the clutch in again and shift to the gear you want. Blip and release clutch.

Too troublesome at this point. Learn to rev match first, then after that, double clutching will be easy since you are just releasing and pressing the clutch 1 extra time.

[gnx1987]

thanks norma thats the best explanation Ive understood up to now,just to give ya an update went for a drive tonight and was trying it quite often, and what happens is i dont feel no jerking, but the rev meter goes up quite abit,im guessing i should give less gas, also how do i know exactly if im doing it right ? I did it in this order, say im in 4th gear going into 3rd
1) clutch in
2)slip it into 3rd
3)whilst holding down the clutch still i give a bit of gas
4)as im giving a bit of gas i release the clutch up

hopefully thats right ?

The best way for someone to learn something verbally if practically is not an option is for the learner to try to explain it back to the teacher. What you've said here is pretty much right. All you've got to get used to, is giving it the right amount of gas on step 4 and also give it a bit of gas while shifting to third. As far as double clutching goes, I reckon you'd have to be the biggest penny pincher to do that when driving a car. I personally have never tried double clutching and I don't intend to unless I have to learn to drive a truck or a car with no synchros. That and it's to slow.

[roar]

its not as slow as you think

after a little practice you can get a double clutch downshift done in less than a second...

of course its not as quick as pure revmatching...but it gives you a sense of satisfaction lol...and when a passenger sees you doing it they think you are godlike

[anfz]

Hey guys been practising it quite a bit and feel like im spot on with it,but at times I feel its pointless, like I have that smoother gear change even without rev matching at times ,so what im asking is it necessary to do all the time? or only when i feel like i will get alot of engine compression and therefore have to in order to match the revs so i can get a smooth change over ?

[aaronng]

In which gear change do you feel you don't need to rev match. I find that for 6-5 shifts in my car, I don't need to blip the throttle as the RPM rises on its own when I press the clutch in. Even for 5-4 shifts it is a very very light tap.

[anfz]

well i find that when i go from 4th to 3rd, sometimes and i make sure to slowly let out the clutch it dosent jerk really.The problem im having is going from 4th to 2nd because it seems no matter how much gas i give ,it always has plenty of engine braking ? now im not sure whether or not thats down to the speed im going at the time of changing what do you guys think ?

[tRipitaka]

what speed are you at when you're in 4th gear ?
try doing the same speed in 2nd gear.. does your engine sound like it's working ?

[J-MuN]

In which gear change do you feel you don't need to rev match. I find that for 6-5 shifts in my car, I don't need to blip the throttle as the RPM rises on its own when I press the clutch in. Even for 5-4 shifts it is a very very light tap.It all depends on the speed you are travelling at, at the time and what gear you are in. In certain cases, as you said aaronng, you don't need to blip the throttle but at other times, you do. It's hard to say when and where you need to. As time goes by and with practice, you will basically know how much you need to blip your throttle. It becomes a norm when you do it often enough.

[gnx1987]

what speed are you at when you're in 4th gear ?
try doing the same speed in 2nd gear.. does your engine sound like it's working ?

I'll second this. Once your doing the same speed in second as you were doing in fourth, check how many revs your doing. Next time you need to do a 4th to 2nd shift those are the revs you've got make you're engine match by the time your letting your clutch out. Despite what others might say about you being to inexperienced in your manual driving to be learning these skills, sooner or later you should try to perfect this, because it does help when you need to overtake some slomofo:p

[aaronng]

well i find that when i go from 4th to 3rd, sometimes and i make sure to slowly let out the clutch it dosent jerk really.The problem im having is going from 4th to 2nd because it seems no matter how much gas i give ,it always has plenty of engine braking ? now im not sure whether or not thats down to the speed im going at the time of changing what do you guys think ?
If you are rev matching, you should let your clutch out at the same speed as you press it in.

What speed are you at when you are shifting from 4th to 2nd?

[anfz]

Hey guys I rekon im at about 50 kms when changing from 4th to 2nd,and what i have found is to get a really smooth change over from 4th to 2nd i have to give heaps of revs maybe at least 5rpm to match it out, now im guessing what im doing wrong is being at a high speed still while wanting to change from 4th to 2nd ? also say you guys are in 4th cruising at like 80km and theres a corner coming up do you change it into 3rd gear than as the corner is near 2nd ? or you cruise along and keep it in 4th till you really close to the corner than pop it into 2nd gear ? cause i find i rarley need 2nd gear in corners, Im mostly taking them in 3rd gear because of the whole engine breaking thing at the moment that im struggling with.Not to mention also when you upshift say from a standstill 1-2-3-4 do you keep your foot on the clutch and give gas as soon as you feel your off that friction point or you completely move your foot off clutch while giving gas ? sorry guys about all the questions just trying to perfect my driving, so i know im doing the right thing thanks

[DOHCVTEC]

btw double clutching can be faster
try shifting into first at high RPM without double clutching and u'll get wat i mean (for tight hairpins etc)

[DreadAngel]

Be sane and try not to do pro stuff like the above haha... smooth out how you drive a manual "Normally" before doing pro stuff like all these Trackday Warriors =P

[Q_ball]

^Ditto!
I said it before in this thread, learn to drive normally and smoothly before learning all these extra techniques, which arent needed in daily driving.
You can learn these additional skills once you have the basics down well.

[DreadAngel]

Whoops!

Sorry Q didn't mean to take your line man, I thought you were going to call my post for newbies blah blah blah...

Almost smoothed out the basics hehe, then you guys can teach me teh Trackday Warrior stuff haha

[aaronng]

Hey guys I rekon im at about 50 kms when changing from 4th to 2nd,and what i have found is to get a really smooth change over from 4th to 2nd i have to give heaps of revs maybe at least 5rpm to match it out, now im guessing what im doing wrong is being at a high speed still while wanting to change from 4th to 2nd ? also say you guys are in 4th cruising at like 80km and theres a corner coming up do you change it into 3rd gear than as the corner is near 2nd ? or you cruise along and keep it in 4th till you really close to the corner than pop it into 2nd gear ? cause i find i rarley need 2nd gear in corners, Im mostly taking them in 3rd gear because of the whole engine breaking thing at the moment that im struggling with.Not to mention also when you upshift say from a standstill 1-2-3-4 do you keep your foot on the clutch and give gas as soon as you feel your off that friction point or you completely move your foot off clutch while giving gas ? sorry guys about all the questions just trying to perfect my driving, so i know im doing the right thing thanks

If you are at 50km/h and shifting from 4th to 2nd, then blip your throttle so it reaches 5000-5500rpm. Yes, that high. That should be the proper RPM for 2nd gear at 50km/h.
When the corner is coming up and I am in 4th, I shift to 3rd BEFORE the corner comes. I do the usual clutch in, shift to 3rd and blip throttle, release clutch and then foot back on accelerator. Usually the corner can be taken in 3rd gear. If it is a very slow corner (I notice only corners that are more than a 90º turn will need 2nd gear), then I downshift once more, in exactly the same way. Press clutch in, shift to 2nd and blip throttle and release clutch. I don't usually shift 4th to 2nd because the RPM gap is huge that you have to blip the throttle pretty hard and it's not easy to get it spot on.

For upshift, press clutch in, shift from 1st to 2nd, release clutch and press accelerator at around the bite point in one fluid motion. So as your left foot comes up, press your right foot down. Sometimes I release my clutch fully before I press the accelerator, but it is more difficult to get it smooth this way because of the flywheel decellerating faster than the transmission.

[ROLLED]

I also found that after you learn the principals, which you seem to know, that it was easier to go out for a drive by yourself and just practice, because i found it quite stressful with passengers and especially in other peoples cars!

[anfz]

Hey guys Ive been driving auto for ages, and as you may know recently started with manual, and what ive noticed is why is it that in my automatic car braking feels far more responsive than in my manual car ?im guessing could be down to brake pads etc, but would it have something to do with auto just having a different feel to braking or what do you think ? also guys say im in 2nd gear and taking a speed bump, why is it once im off the bump and give gas the car jerks back and forth a bit,its nothing over the top just slightly ? and lastly what do most of yous take corners in 2nd gear or 3rd i know it depends on the turn etc but in general and round abouts ?

[EK4R]

also guys say im in 2nd gear and taking a speed bump, why is it once im off the bump and give gas the car jerks back and forth a bit,its nothing over the top just slightly ? and lastly what do most of yous take corners in 2nd gear or 3rd i know it depends on the turn etc but in general and round abouts ?

depends on how slow you go through the hump. if its too slow, better off ride your clutch alittle and as you come off the hump, put clutch into friction point and take off again slowly.

depending on your speed when turning, i take corners at 3rd mostly, i hardly use 2nd unless its a give-away or stop sign. personal preference

[aaronng]

Hey guys Ive been driving auto for ages, and as you may know recently started with manual, and what ive noticed is why is it that in my automatic car braking feels far more responsive than in my manual car ?im guessing could be down to brake pads etc, but would it have something to do with auto just having a different feel to braking or what do you think ? also guys say im in 2nd gear and taking a speed bump, why is it once im off the bump and give gas the car jerks back and forth a bit,its nothing over the top just slightly ? and lastly what do most of yous take corners in 2nd gear or 3rd i know it depends on the turn etc but in general and round abouts ?
Because they are different cars, the braking feeling is diferent. If you want to improve the feeling, you can change brake pads first.

With the speed bump, you have to press the accelerator smoothly. It's a different method from an auto. With the auto, you just put your foot down at say 1/4 accelerator and go. With the manual, you have to gradually increase the throttle until you reach 1/4. Just think of your right foot having to be as smooth as butter.

As for roundabouts, if it is a 9 o'clock (left turn) or 12 o'clock (straight ahead), 3rd gear is usually fine. For 3 o'clock right turns, then sometimes I need 2nd depending on the size of the roundabout. It also depends on your car, whether if it has enough torque to pull with 3rd gear or whether it will lug the engine instead.