Power FC for B18C2.

[yourfather]

Just curious boys, will be buying an ECU in about 3-4 weeks. Tossing up between Hondata and Pwer FC.

Do I need to buy additional add on stuff for the POwer FC to handle boost like Hondata?

[pornstar]

no u dont

[shebangs]

My research in the last 2 months has come to the conclusion that Hondata s200 with Boost is a much better option than the Power FC (Laptop) based on Tunability.

Let us know what your research comes to though.

Matt

[yourfather]

well, for the hondata, what I need is

obd2a/b s200 full plug n play ECU = $870+gst+ boost option
power fc for b18c + commander = 999

[superR]

toda australia is having a sale on the hondata's at the moment maybe you should look into that ...or failing this go a power FC.

[yourfather]

cheers for the advice man, but Hondata + Boost is more expensive than Power FC

[superR]

true ...thats why i went power FC in my turbo R...... it runs like stock , and there are no installation costs as it plugs right in ....lol except faster!....i recomend it highly...who is gonna tune it for you?

[yourfather]

well, me an mashimaro are talkin about options...

havent decided yet. I just wanna get all the parts together. i do know who I want, but it's a question of opportunity etc.

[saxman]

cheers for the advice man, but Hondata + Boost is more expensive than Power FC
never ceases to amaze me how much hondata can charge for clicking one button in the software to enable boost

[ALLMTR996]

never ceases to amaze me how much hondata can charge for clicking one button in the software to enable boost
Hey why is it that as soon as someone says anything about Hondata you come on here and bash the product what the **** is wrong with you.Yes there are other systems out there but the guy just asked a simple question and if he wants to buy a Power FC or a Hondata why in hell rubbish the product why not help him out with some of your mega tuner knowledge that you seem to think you have.Not everyone is a DIY type of person and they really would just like to buy a product that comes with factory backing and not by some backyard hacker.Hondata products are very well supported within Australia and as far as prices go they are on special somewhere on this forum.Yourfather what year model is your car so I can sit down and work out why someone says the Hondata is more expensive than the Power FC.
ALLMTR996

[saxman]

wasn't bashing the product, didn't say it didn't work, etc... was simply making a comment that it amazes me how much extra they charge for something a simple as clicking a button in the program

[tinkerbell]

yes, and this *sale* that is on...

well, Power FC is still cheaper for a OBD2 car, plus you get a free handcontroller!

i would love to know why shebangs thinks that Hondata is better in terms of *tunability*...

i would actually love to know what *tunability* actually is too....

[shebangs]

i would love to know why shebangs thinks that Hondata is better in terms of *tunability*...

i would actually love to know what *tunability* actually is too....

How can you comment on aftermarket ECU's and not know what tuneability means? That illogical to me. (no offense). But just incase you honestly don't know what I mean, would you buy an aftermarket ECU if it only let you make 10 adjustments to Air Fuel ratio's? Or would you spend an extra $50 and get one which allowed you to make 2000 adjustments? (FYI all thats purely an example in simple terms for tinkerbell to understand)


I'm not saying the PowerFC is a better/worse ECU either, I mean, bang for buck wise, I prefer it over the s200 aswell because it's purely plug n play and also comes with the hand controller.

Matt

[tinkerbell]

so you still have not explained your definition of tunability...

it *seems* like you are saying it is hopw many tuning points there are,

but that would be extremely naive wouldn't it?

do you know how many tuning points each ECU has?

[tinkerbell]

i just want to try to understand why you decided that from your research you feel that Hondata has better tunability over the PowerFC...

as my research appears to be leading me to a different conclusion...

[yourfather]

I have a March 97 DC2 VTi-R.

Plus, i've found a Power FC for 960... Dude, I could buy two hondata's with that.

Honestly, i'm not going to be running 25 psi all day, fully sick uleh, into the engine. I want something that gives me a bit more power on the straight. If I wanted an 'all out' 'ripping my shirt off, bending my spine' acceleration experience, I would've bought a bike.

I only want driveability, reliability, and a bit more power. NOW, why, would I want to double my budget on an ECU if I'm not going to be drag racing etc?

[Perry]

I have a March 97 DC2 VTi-R.

Plus, i've found a Power FC for 960... Dude, I could buy two hondata's with that.

Honestly, i'm not going to be running 25 psi all day, fully sick uleh, into the engine. I want something that gives me a bit more power on the straight. If I wanted an 'all out' 'ripping my shirt off, bending my spine' acceleration experience, I would've bought a bike.

I only want driveability, reliability, and a bit more power. NOW, why, would I want to double my budget on an ECU if I'm not going to be drag racing etc?

with the hand controller for that price or just the ECU?, for obd2 money wise Power Fc, i was in the same foot as you before

[STOCK]

Id go power fc as there are more tuners in my local area that are able to tune the unit.

[yourfather]

yeah that includes the hand controller, and STOCK, I'm not in Cabramatta, I'm in Melbourne.

[ALLMTR996]

yes, and this *sale* that is on...

well, Power FC is still cheaper for a OBD2 car, plus you get a free handcontroller!

i would love to know why shebangs thinks that Hondata is better in terms of *tunability*...

i would actually love to know what *tunability* actually is too....
Have you tuned a power FC in a boosted Honda Vtec?. And have you tuned a Hondata in a boosted Honda Vtec?.If the answer is NO to both of these questions why are you even making a comment, sitting behind a PC and doing all the research in the ****ING world is not hands on experience.Comparing one ECU to another on paper is one thing but real world tuning is another.And before you say anything about me no I have not tuned them but I have driven the cars for that fat prick Dyno Dave when he does road tuning so yes I have seen the difference between the two.
ALLMTR996
One more thing a complete replacement OBD2a/b S100 Hondata=$955
A Power FC=$990
So correct me if I am wrong but which one is cheaper again?

[yourfather]

I don't want an S100, I'd want an S200 with datalogging. you miss my point completely.

[Mashimaro]

Hey white boy,

You know hondata is out of the question for us due to the fact we're melbourenians. Unless you'r going to purchase motec power fc is bang for bucks and more tuners here for us.

[yourfather]

yeah, and considering the guy who runs hondata australia is banned from here too ;)

[tinkerbell]

One more thing a complete replacement OBD2a/b S100 Hondata=$955
A Power FC=$990
So correct me if I am wrong but which one is cheaper again?

Hondata = $955
PowerFC + HC = $960

so you get a hand controller for $5

not bad eh?

[tinkerbell]

no I have not tuned them but I have driven the cars for that fat prick Dyno Dave when he does road tuning so yes I have seen the difference between the two.


so it is easy enough to say you can "see the difference" but do you have the ability to actually *describe* the difference to us?

would love to hear you describe what the difference actually is?

[yourfather]

And before you say anything about me no I have not tuned them but I have driven the cars for that fat prick Dyno Dave when he does road tuning so yes I have seen the difference between the two.


Btw, seeing as this is my thread, I would prefer you NOT to refer to people as 'Fat Prick's'.

He has a good reputation for what he does, and has a lot of experience.

[ALLMTR996]

Btw, seeing as this is my thread, I would prefer you NOT to refer to people as 'Fat Prick's'.

He has a good reputation for what he does, and has a lot of experience.
Dude dont worry about him he lives in the same street as me and that is what I call him,shit I am sitting here now in his lounge room using his PC as I dont have one so all is good :D
ALLMTR996

[ALLMTR996]

so it is easy enough to say you can "see the difference" but do you have the ability to actually *describe* the difference to us?

would love to hear you describe what the difference actually is?
Hey everytime someone starts something about Hondata vs another ECU you and a few others jump in and say that its not as good as this one or that one well prove it,I know you cant because you have no real tuning experience with any ECU only the VAFC or what ever it was you used in your Integra.You like most just sit behind your PC and spread your limited tuning knowledge with big words and bullshit.Hey as I said before I cant tune like you and 99% of the people on here,Hey I cant even spell the words that Dave uses to tell me what is wrong with this or that ECU all I know is that watching the AFR meter in a car when he is tuning it is very stable with the hondata in boost but not as good with the other ECU.Now you know how long he has been in the game of tuning and if someone asks him what ECU to buy he just says what ever you want,but when he reads someone putting shit on an ECU that has no tuning experience or ever owned or used that unit he gets very annoyed because they are talking out of there arse.As has been said 1000's of times before the ECU is only as good as the tuner.
ALLMTR996

[Felix]

ALLMTR996 - is dynodave your hero or something??? I'm sure if he had something to say about these "others" your talking about he would just log on and say it.

lol at this thread.. Everyone getting on their high horses..

[tinkerbell]

As has been said 1000's of times before the ECU is only as good as the tuner.
ALLMTR996

so doesnt it come down to price if they are just an ECU?

BTW good description of how it is "better" :thumbsup:

[yourfather]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8919/41dc5web1jp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

just wondering if i have to pay extra for this with my Hondata ECU?

[tRipitaka]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8919/41dc5web1jp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

just wondering if i have to pay extra for this with my Hondata ECU?
it ain't hondata luc..
it was the combination of DBA and hankook tyres.. :rolleyes:

[jooboo]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8919/41dc5web1jp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

just wondering if i have to pay extra for this with my Hondata ECU?

For everyone who wants to know the happening of peters DCR5, he was racing at Oran park in NSW around 1 year ago, when he miss shifted from 4th gear into 1st and instantly blew up his gear box and engine, datalogging on the Hondata ECU showed a RPM of excess of 15,0000 rpm. The only factor alone causing such a catastrophic explosion was driver error. It's an amazing photo, shame on you for trying to mock Hondata and acting so childish.


toE edit: Took out personal attacks and deragatory comments. There is no need for that on a public forum. Take it to PMs please. This is your first warning.

[ginganggooly]

tinkerbell- what technical aspect(s) of the powerfc do you feel are superior to the hondata s200?

[tinkerbell]

tinkerbell- what technical aspect(s) of the powerfc do you feel are superior to the hondata s200?

let me know any where in this thread i have said any aspect (except $5 hand controller) PowerFC is superior in any way to Hondata, and i might be able to tell you :wave:

but as it is quite clear all i have done in this thread is ask questions, not make statements about the product.

the people who find it necessary to *defend* something when it is not even being attacked are clearly showing the bias they have...

[ginganggooly]

i just want to try to understand why you decided that from your research you feel that Hondata has better tunability over the PowerFC...

as my research appears to be leading me to a different conclusion...


i'd say this more or less implies that your research has led you to believe that the PowerFC has "better tunability" than the hondata.
i'm just wondering what you've seen that makes it (PFC) a technically better propostion than the hondata.

forgive me if i'm wrong...:angel:

[toE]

Have a mature argument without name callings, personal attacks, deragatory and/or rascistic comments please.

Anyone who wishes to post outside of that can go ahead and do the smart thing and use the PM function we've provided.

Sort your childish bickering outside of this forum.

This is a warning to all who decides to post.

[tinkerbell]

i'm just wondering what you've seen that makes it (PFC) a technically better propostion than the hondata.


define "tunability", if you see my post above the one you quoted, i asked what "tunability" was so that we could be sure we were comparing the same thing...

in my opinion, a "technically better" object does not necessarily mean the object is best overall for everyone.

or does it in your opinion?

you seem to be implying that Hondata is better than PowerFC?

can you explain why you believe this? and if you have any boosted specific examples, that might just keep this thread on topic...

[jimmeh]

Have a mature argument without name callings, personal attacks, deragatory and/or rascistic comments please.
what on earth does racisistic mean? ive check a few online dictionaries and couldnt find the meaning

[LowEk]

i think is spose to be sarcastic(sp?).

[ALLMTR996]

Have a mature argument without name callings, personal attacks, deragatory and/or rascistic comments please.

Anyone who wishes to post outside of that can go ahead and do the smart thing and use the PM function we've provided.

Sort your childish bickering outside of this forum.

This is a warning to all who decides to post.
Hey If I walk up to you in the street and call you names will you ban me from here?.Yes I agree some of the comments where over the top but this is a free country and if someone wants to call you a whatever they will on here or on the street.I think its time you and the other MODS got off the power trip you are all on its turning what was a good forum to one that just SUX.

[bennjamin]

its a free country but like most places , the basic rules are stated at the front door of this forum :) Mods enforce and remind where need be. So shush up and keep the replies to the discussion :)

I ask....as a up and coming "modded car lookign for the better tuneable ECU" ~ what overall (without bias) woudl be the better option ? power FC or Hondata ? IS the power FC the same thing or less or more ? (for discussions sake)

[locote]

Just a bit of the subject.
Is the power FC plug and play compatible with a B18B motor aswell OBD2???

[BiGANG]

i truthfully dont think many people on this forum can answer this without bias because we just dont have the experience to differentiate between two technically. We just just all look and say this or that is better because it looks prettier or is cheaper or whatever. I have seen cars tuned by both and if the tuner knows his sh*t, then both turn out just as good as eachother, Power FC is a very powerful product and has proven itself many times over the years on many cars not just hondas. Its pretty much the ecu of choice for many rotary enthousiasts in the US and also heaps of 200sx owners have one too and i dont see too many complaints from whoever has one BUT, Hondata is also a proven product and has shown its worth over the years also, as it has been used in many pretty tough US drag cars and heaps of street cars world wide. IMO I would think they are much of a muchness and if you are going to get a ecu, get it based on what ur tuner is more experinced with not just which one looks like better value because it will probably bite you in the ass in the end and then if that happens there will be another thread coming up with some sh*t like 'my hondata/power fc is doing (insert whinge here) HELP' which will just add to confusion for everyone looking to invest in an ecu that hasnt already.

You cant just say one is better than the other because until now I havent seen a reason as to why one is 'better'. Its all just been standard internet bs, like i read on this website and i read on that website. None of us here are tuners and cant say accurately what is the better ecu.

I was looking for a long time before i decided what i got (decision isnt important just in case some people will say im biased) but i never saw any problems with either for my dc2r. anyway enough ranting

[DynoDave]

i truthfully dont think many people on this forum can answer this without bias because we just dont have the experience to differentiate between two technically. We just just all look and say this or that is better because it looks prettier or is cheaper or whatever. I have seen cars tuned by both and if the tuner knows his sh*t, then both turn out just as good as eachother, Power FC is a very powerful product and has proven itself many times over the years on many cars not just hondas. Its pretty much the ecu of choice for many rotary enthousiasts in the US and also heaps of 200sx owners have one too and i dont see too many complaints from whoever has one BUT, Hondata is also a proven product and has shown its worth over the years also, as it has been used in many pretty tough US drag cars and heaps of street cars world wide. IMO I would think they are much of a muchness and if you are going to get a ecu, get it based on what ur tuner is more experinced with not just which one looks like better value because it will probably bite you in the ass in the end and then if that happens there will be another thread coming up with some sh*t like 'my hondata/power fc is doing (insert whinge here) HELP' which will just add to confusion for everyone looking to invest in an ecu that hasnt already.

You cant just say one is better than the other because until now I havent seen a reason as to why one is 'better'. Its all just been standard internet bs, like i read on this website and i read on that website. None of us here are tuners and cant say accurately what is the better ecu.

I was looking for a long time before i decided what i got (decision isnt important just in case some people will say im biased) but i never saw any problems with either for my dc2r. anyway enough ranting
Best post I have read in many months on here.:thumbsup:
Regards Dyno Dave

[LowEk]

Best post I have read in many months on here.:thumbsup:
Regards Dyno Dave

same man:thumbsup:

[Mashimaro]

i truthfully dont think many people on this forum can answer this without bias because we just dont have the experience to differentiate between two technically. We just just all look and say this or that is better because it looks prettier or is cheaper or whatever. I have seen cars tuned by both and if the tuner knows his sh*t, then both turn out just as good as eachother, Power FC is a very powerful product and has proven itself many times over the years on many cars not just hondas. Its pretty much the ecu of choice for many rotary enthousiasts in the US and also heaps of 200sx owners have one too and i dont see too many complaints from whoever has one BUT, Hondata is also a proven product and has shown its worth over the years also, as it has been used in many pretty tough US drag cars and heaps of street cars world wide. IMO I would think they are much of a muchness and if you are going to get a ecu, get it based on what ur tuner is more experinced with not just which one looks like better value because it will probably bite you in the ass in the end and then if that happens there will be another thread coming up with some sh*t like 'my hondata/power fc is doing (insert whinge here) HELP' which will just add to confusion for everyone looking to invest in an ecu that hasnt already.

You cant just say one is better than the other because until now I havent seen a reason as to why one is 'better'. Its all just been standard internet bs, like i read on this website and i read on that website. None of us here are tuners and cant say accurately what is the better ecu.

I was looking for a long time before i decided what i got (decision isnt important just in case some people will say im biased) but i never saw any problems with either for my dc2r. anyway enough ranting

Can I ask you what Ecu you ended up goin with? If you don't want to post it publicly can you pm me?

[ginganggooly]

define "tunability", if you see my post above the one you quoted, i asked what "tunability" was so that we could be sure we were comparing the same thing...

in my opinion, a "technically better" object does not necessarily mean the object is best overall for everyone.

or does it in your opinion?

you seem to be implying that Hondata is better than PowerFC?

can you explain why you believe this? and if you have any boosted specific examples, that might just keep this thread on topic...

I've read and re-read what you wrote, and you've not been drawn into a technical debate, except to ask someone what i've just asked you...

So on that basis, your argument for the PowerFC centres around value for money on OBD2 cars, and not on it being technically superior to the Hondata?

All i have to base my conclusion on is the two PowerFC equipped cars i've seen from OzHonda- both tuned by one of the more talented individuals, and neither car ran as they should have. It's worth comparing *insert user name here* vti-r to my car, very similar mods, with the cams (*insert username here*has CTR cams), ECU and rear mufflers being the only significant differences.
My car is significantly better in the mid-range and marginally quicker in the top end. I realise it's not a concrete argument, and i wouldn't use the comparison as the sole basis of making the decision... but it is a little food for thought.

[integral90]

i truthfully dont think many people on this forum can answer this without bias because we just dont have the experience to differentiate between two technically. We just just all look and say this or that is better because it looks prettier or is cheaper or whatever. I have seen cars tuned by both and if the tuner knows his sh*t, then both turn out just as good as eachother, Power FC is a very powerful product and has proven itself many times over the years on many cars not just hondas. Its pretty much the ecu of choice for many rotary enthousiasts in the US and also heaps of 200sx owners have one too and i dont see too many complaints from whoever has one BUT, Hondata is also a proven product and has shown its worth over the years also, as it has been used in many pretty tough US drag cars and heaps of street cars world wide. IMO I would think they are much of a muchness and if you are going to get a ecu, get it based on what ur tuner is more experinced with not just which one looks like better value because it will probably bite you in the ass in the end and then if that happens there will be another thread coming up with some sh*t like 'my hondata/power fc is doing (insert whinge here) HELP' which will just add to confusion for everyone looking to invest in an ecu that hasnt already.

You cant just say one is better than the other because until now I havent seen a reason as to why one is 'better'. Its all just been standard internet bs, like i read on this website and i read on that website. None of us here are tuners and cant say accurately what is the better ecu.

I was looking for a long time before i decided what i got (decision isnt important just in case some people will say im biased) but i never saw any problems with either for my dc2r. anyway enough ranting

yay :wave:

[tinkerbell]

I've read and re-read what you wrote, and you've not been drawn into a technical debate, except to ask someone what i've just asked you...

well done for reading!

you will even note that i invited a technical comparison (based on "tunable points" - with Hondata clearly wining at 740 vs PowerFC at 400...) but no-one responded did they?

So on that basis, your argument for the PowerFC centres around value for money on OBD2 cars, and not on it being technically superior to the Hondata?

yes, if i were to be arguing for either product - "value for money" and the handcontroller/monitor device in my opinion are worth more to most users than launch control, full throttle shift, dataloging etc that the Hondata has...

All i have to base my conclusion on is the two PowerFC equipped cars i've seen from OzHonda

and re: your *conclusion*, i refer you to ALLMTR996's post above - it is the ECU is only as good as the tuner rationale (which i entirely agree with)...

so you might need to clarify whether the tuner who tuned your car was the same guy who tuned *insert user name here* - otherwise the info is fairly useless...


on a side note, i see you are reluctant to define tunability too? is it really that hard? or is it more that "tunability" is a myth?

[bennjamin]

that which i can see sofar is only this ~

a ECU is only as good as its tuner.

Can anyone here ( that isnt a reprasentative of HONDATA or close associate/owner) define how different the HONDATA and power FC really are ? OR are they different at all ?:)

[ginganggooly]

and re: your *conclusion*, i refer you to ALLMTR996's post above - it is the ECU is only as good as the tuner rationale (which i entirely agree with)...

so you might need to clarify whether the tuner who tuned your car was the same guy who tuned *insert user name here* - otherwise the info is fairly useless...


on a side note, i see you are reluctant to define tunability too? is it really that hard? or is it more that "tunability" is a myth?

While the tuner probably makes up the bulk of any difference between the results of the applications of various ECU’s, you can only polish up a turd so far –not to say that the PowerFC is a turd, but you get the point.

And yes, the tuner was different, however he’s widely regarded as being of the same caliber as DynoDave, (particularly in the Australian Honda scene) who tuned my car. I did mention this, and I’ll repeat it again, It’s not proof of superiority of one unit over the other, but it is food for thought.

The only compelling proof would be in the results of having the car tuned via Hondata, then swapped out and tuned, by the same tuner, with a PowerFC. I’m more than happy to donate my car and a Hondata S200 for this purpose, so if someone else comes to the party with a PowerFC, we can probably make something happen.

I'll not be drawn into a debate on the tunability of various ECU's, as i simply don't have the knowledge to comment on the subject. However, as you've mentioned that your research has led you to feel that the PowerFC is superior, I'd just like to know what your research is/was and what the result(s) of said research is/was. Seeing as you've highlighted that your research on the topic at hand, in the context of "tunability", led you to a particular conclusion, you must have some notion of what this mysterious phrase actually constitutes- in practical terms. So a little clarity there wouldn't go astray, and be appreciated, muchly.

[tinkerbell]

as you've mentioned that your research has led you to feel that the PowerFC is superior,

nope, never mentioned that, read again ;)

i am up fro a PowerFC/Hondata swap - but who to pay for tuning?

i am sure the tuner in question (maybe Adrian/Dave/Jim) would say it is pointless anyways as the power curve/max power would probably "be fairly similar"...

but who knows? maybe that is too presumptious? maybe Hondata is the best, and no-one is telling us in an objective factual way?


you must have some notion of what this mysterious phrase actually constitutes- in practical terms. So a little clarity there wouldn't go astray, and be appreciated, muchly.

but with so many "criteria" to determine how it is the best - noone has been able to conclude one way or the other...

both have many pros, both have a few cons...

and how do you weight each of the pros and cons in order of importance?

is full throttle lauch more desirable than a hand controller?

maybe for a drag racer, buit not a daily driven street car?

and when determining "best", how does one factor in cost?

a few people above seem to think you would be a "tight ass" for considering this a important factor, but then again, those people making such comments usually are trying to sell a more expensive option...

and how much difference does less "tunable points" actually mean?

and what is the end goal?

MAX horsepower? best area under curve? smoothest idle? best fuel economy? least knock? best cold start? shortest tuning time?

now there is some *clarity* on my issues with people saying one ECU has better tunability than the other...

[tinkerbell]

Can anyone here ( that isnt a reprasentative of HONDATA or close associate/owner) define how different the HONDATA and power FC really are ? OR are they different at all ?:)

ben, i am doing up a comparison table to that point now... wont be too long... :thumbsup:

[ginganggooly]

since i'm such a sick-ass tuner, i'll volunteer myself to tune the goods. I think we should use a different donor car though, i hear b20's are a good platform for testing of ecu's :P

but back on topic, my thoughts are that the more complete and therefore better ecu would have the better combination of smoothness, cold idle, power, datalogging and various other gadgets (launch control, full throttle shift etc).
personally, i see the hand controller as being of little value, as any changes i make to the tune of the car are going to be amateurish at best, and probably catastrophic. So, i'd be taking it to a tuner, who probably has the client required to tune it via one of those new fangled lap tops. Besides, unless you're changing something really simple, like rev-limit, or idle, wouldn't you require a wide-band O2 sensor and possibly a dyno?
What else does the hand controller allow you to do?

[tinkerbell]

What else does the hand controller allow you to do?

monitors:

ATFtemp - Autogearbox Logic Control
AirTemp - Air Temperature
Airflow - Airflow Meter Voltage
BatVolt - Battery Voltage
Boost - Boost Pressure (Bar)
Eng Rev - Engine RPM
GearPos - Autogearbox Logic Control
IgnT Ld - Ignition Leading
IgnTmng - Ignition Timing
IngT Tr - Ignition Trailing
InjDuty - Injector Duty
Knock - Knock Sensor
PimVolt - Map Sensor Voltage
Speed - Speed KM/H
Throttl - Autogearbox Logic Control
TorqCnv - Autogearbox Logic Control
WtrTemp - Water Temperature

warnings:

Airflow Warn - Airflow Meter Warning - 5v Peak (Engine check light)
Ij/Afl/Knk Wrn - Injector, Airflow and Knock Warning (Engine check light)
Inj/AirF Warn - Injector and Airflow Warning (Engine check light)
Injector Warn - Injector Warning (Engine check light)
Knock Warning - Knock Sensor Warning

also allows user changes to:

Inlet air temp fuel map
Water temp fuel map
RPM acceleration fuel map
Cranking Injector dwell map
Water temp versus boost fuel correction
Inlet air temp versus boost fuel correction
RPM Load Point table
AFM load point table
AFM voltage table
Ignition versus water temp correction
Ignition versus inlet air temp correction
Ignition dwell versus RPM correction
Ignition versus battery voltage correction
Ignition versus boost correction
Individual injector trim
Injector lag versus battery voltage correction

yes - potentailly catastrophic to be sure, but whoever is stupid enough to change something they are told they should not, is really responsible for their own outcomes...

[tinkerbell]

and to the B20 comment - is your OBD2a compatible or do we need a conversion harness? or a different ECU?

[bennjamin]

ben, i am doing up a comparison table to that point now... wont be too long... :thumbsup:


myself amoungst many as the "little men" await such results :):):)

[tinkerbell]

but back on topic, my thoughts are that the more complete and therefore better ecu would have the better combination of smoothness, cold idle, power, datalogging and various other gadgets (launch control, full throttle shift etc).

but not really helpful is it?

since both ECU's can be made identical, then what do you say is the defining factor?

are under the curve? or price?

[ginganggooly]

monitors:

ATFtemp - Autogearbox Logic Control
AirTemp - Air Temperature
Airflow - Airflow Meter Voltage
BatVolt - Battery Voltage
Boost - Boost Pressure (Bar)
Eng Rev - Engine RPM
GearPos - Autogearbox Logic Control
IgnT Ld - Ignition Leading
IgnTmng - Ignition Timing
IngT Tr - Ignition Trailing
InjDuty - Injector Duty
Knock - Knock Sensor
PimVolt - Map Sensor Voltage
Speed - Speed KM/H
Throttl - Autogearbox Logic Control
TorqCnv - Autogearbox Logic Control
WtrTemp - Water Temperature

warnings:

Airflow Warn - Airflow Meter Warning - 5v Peak (Engine check light)
Ij/Afl/Knk Wrn - Injector, Airflow and Knock Warning (Engine check light)
Inj/AirF Warn - Injector and Airflow Warning (Engine check light)
Injector Warn - Injector Warning (Engine check light)
Knock Warning - Knock Sensor Warning

also allows user changes to:

Inlet air temp fuel map
Water temp fuel map
RPM acceleration fuel map
Cranking Injector dwell map
Water temp versus boost fuel correction
Inlet air temp versus boost fuel correction
RPM Load Point table
AFM load point table
AFM voltage table
Ignition versus water temp correction
Ignition versus inlet air temp correction
Ignition dwell versus RPM correction
Ignition versus battery voltage correction
Ignition versus boost correction
Individual injector trim
Injector lag versus battery voltage correction

yes - potentailly catastrophic to be sure, but whoever is stupid enough to change something they are told they should not, is really responsible for their own outcomes...

Does it log the data in the ECU/controller, or does it just return realtime values?

I don't see the point in the handcontroller for the myriad of other adjustments as the tuner would sit down with a laptop, with the proper software, as would the end user if they're serious about tuning.

[tinkerbell]

Does it log the data in the ECU/controller, or does it just return realtime values?

I don't see the point in the handcontroller for the myriad of other adjustments as the tuner would sit down with a laptop, with the proper software, as would the end user if they're serious about tuning.

no "logging" with the HC, only realtime data...

it does do a "map trace" though...

you need 3rd party device for proper datalogging though, it is called FC-datalogit...

[sr3]

Well my brother started off with a PowerFC in his dc2r and ended up with Hondata s300 and he has never looked back.
My brother turboed charged his dc2r but the PowerFC (already in the car when he brought it) just couldn't delivery a daily driving environment, it would surge and jolt and drive very irregularly and he had it tuned by every possible method from the hand controller to laptop software by loads of different workshops, it was the PowerFC limitations which caused problems, not who tuned it. The cold start was very annoying to say the least, and fuel economy was just through the roof. Sure it was drivable but shocking when you directly compare how the car drives now using Hondata s300.

One key point that attracted him to upgrading to Hondata before even looking at the tuning side of things was the feature of boost cut off.
Boost cut off, saves you from over boosting your engine, this is a fantastic feature and very important for boosted cars, as it provides protection for your engine if your turbo creates too much boost.

Hondata also has a lot more points that can be tuned, in fact when he did his research it was more than double the tune'ing points when compared to PowerFC. Is this important, VERY MUCH SO. The extra degree to fine tune his car made such a huge difference in the way the car drove when in boost and out of boost, the higher resolution Hondata delivered provided a much smoother, torquey and responsive drive.

My brother also installed an intercooler spray, which is also controlled by Hondata, something PowerFC won't do either. He now has setup to spray water onto his intercooler when ever he is over 80% throttle in 3rd and 4th gears, another very useful feature.

Hondata also is fully scaleable to run 3 bar or 5 bar map sensor and run more boost than PowerFC, this wasn't important to my brother at the time as he was only running 8psi below the limit of the standard map sensor used by Hondata and PowerFC. But now he is building his engine to handle more boost he requires the features of Hondata to use a 3 bar map sensor so he can run large amounts of boost.

As for comparing the PowerFC having a hand controller, that shouldn't even come into it. The Hondata s300 software is far superior with its natively supported a laptop environment you just plug up a laptop via USB and have amazing access to the ECU it couldn't be easier. The PowerFC hand controller is very small, its like a game boy and it only remembers what load points you were in you can't adjust anything in real time. Hondata by its self is all your need and is much cheaper than buying a PowerFC plus also buying the Apexi software or FC Edit Software, and still when you use the FC edit software on the PowerFC the features are not even close to what Hondata offers.

Then you have the other standard features of Hondata which have already been covered such as datalogging, launch control and flat shifting, and there are a lot more features than that also, but that's enough of a comparison for now, do the research like we did and choose the best product you can! In our case it was Hondata s300. Hondata IS A CLEAR WINNER over the PowerFC both on Paper and the way it worked.

[BiGANG]

have you got graphs with both tunes with a/f?

[online]

This thread is funny! good read..

[LowEk]

This thread is funny! good read..

it would be for you boys at online. you know your p00.

[ginganggooly]

Didn't want to attempt this one at work, so here's the belated response...



nope, never mentioned that, read again ;)

Okay, i've taken your advice and i still get stuck at, "as my research appears to be leading me to a different conclusion..." In reference to a statement by another member suggesting that his research presented the Hondata as a superior unit. I realise that different doesn't equate to opposite, but it can easily be construed that way. So to end all confusion, in the context of your original post, does different mean different as in one unit being no better or worse than the other, or does different mean opposite. :)


i am up fro a PowerFC/Hondata swap - but who to pay for tuning?

My guess is that if someone is willing to come to the party and agree to purchase the ECU based on the result of the shootout, the tuner may be a tad more accomodating towards this comparo. Obviously this represents a can of worms, and there are a million ways for this deal to go pear-shaped, but it'd work if everyone was as simple as i am...

but who knows? maybe that is too presumptious? maybe Hondata is the best, and no-one is telling us in an objective factual way?

You aren't going to get an unbiased response, because at the end of the day people will either defend their purchasing decisions, defend their mates' decisions or argue for or against a product based on their feelings towards the distributor of the product. The only people that are worth listening to on this topic are the tuners, and they studiously avoid taking sides in these arguments.

and how do you weight each of the pros and cons in order of importance?

All i can see is cost vs result. What are the pros and cons of each system as you see it?

is full throttle lauch more desirable than a hand controller?

The hand controller is a gimmick plain and simple. A tuner would need to sit on the dyno for 6-8 hours to tune a car from scratch using a hand controller. Most serious tuners would be using the proper desktop software, making the handcontroller a redundant "feature".

A S200 with datalogging and a cheapo palm unit provides proper data-logging for a very low cost. How much is the FCdata-logit?

maybe for a drag racer, buit not a daily driven street car?

What is the value of a hand controller for a daily driver? If it can't data-log, what use is it for either road or track?

and when determining "best", how does one factor in cost?

How do you factor cost into any automotive performance related purchase?
It's always going to be a balancing act between anticipated results, marketing of the product and overall cost. Some people will pay a premium price for a premium product eg. Autronic. Others -myself for example- are far more price sensitive.

and how much difference does less "tunable points" actually mean?

I have no idea. I have assumptions of what tunable point are, but i don't believe it is as simple as that.

and what is the end goal?
MAX horsepower? best area under curve? smoothest idle? best fuel economy? least knock? best cold start? shortest tuning time?

What is the end goal for pretty much anyone purchasing an aftermarket ECU?
At the end of the day it's about making the motor use the available fuel more efficiently, thus making more power, while delivering improvements in economy and throttle response. I don't know of anyone that purchased an ECU based on tuning time, but if they were to use that as a yardstick, i'm fairly certain that a PowerFC tuned via handcontroller would be somewhere down the back of the pack.

[saxman]

He now has setup to spray water onto his intercooler when ever he is over 80% throttle in 3rd and 4th gears, another very useful feature.
well, that's arguable...


lots of good info there...

so let me throw this wrench into things... hondata vs uberdata/crome vs power fc

[ALLMTR996]

well, that's arguable...


lots of good info there...

so let me throw this wrench into things... hondata vs uberdata/crome vs power fc
Gee and I was just thinking this thread was going to die.Welcome back saxman ya trouble maker:p
ALLMTR996

[AH_HUH]

imo if i was spending about 1000bux i would like to get a complete computer, not a rechipped ecu or piggy back. i would choose a brand that has been around and trusted time and time again. then i would think realistically if i needed "launch control" "data logging" "anti lag" etc if i were to chase only a small amount of power.

Although i was going to use an autronic ecu after i used the power fc but then scrapped the project, i think the power fc did everything i needed. scott from insight services (02 9621 2411) tuned my turbo dc2r to 268.5kw@wheels on c16 with 16psi and saw 212kw@wheels on 98pump with 11psi (ALL WITH STANDARD INTERNALS). It does not surge or jolt irregularly, cold start was like it was never touched, and fuel economy... i still mananged to do 350km's on a full tank at 11psi all day everyday and i have a very heavy foot at the traffic lights ;) . Still managed to pull a 12.2quarter but how fast do u really wanna go? i started to snap parts like the driveshaft and lsd. but at the end of the day it was just a power fc without datalogging... launch control... anti lag... :D

Some people like to hide who tunes their cars or what they have under the bonnet, but who cares... id rather see more quick cars out there and share the info and experience i got from it.

my 2 cents.

[saxman]

from my experience in tuning cars, datalogging is an absolute must. I really can't imagine tryign to get a good tune from just watching the a/f print out...


Also, what's wrong with the fact that hondata chips the stock ecu... it's taking an extrememely well engineering item, and giving you complete control over it. It's as much a standalone ecu as any other... can't really compare it to a piggy back. Although I can understand not wanting to spend that much money for it... I suppose that's the benefit of uberdata/crome... get all those nice options without having someone bend you over and do you raw

[AH_HUH]

i didnt say there was nothing wrong with the hondata product, i was giving my 2 cents on what i thought about spending a thousand bux on an ecu. if i had said apexi is the bomb and nothing was better then it then i wouldnt of mentioned changing to an autronic which costs $5500. im sure u can tell the difference in a good tune or a bad tune by driving it. my first tune was done by hark automotive and that had blackspots in the middle of the revrange. Hondata is as much standalone as any other but atleast u'll have a standard ecu spare if the job was to be reversed or if you chose to sell it. When i put my car back to standard i didnt have to retune it at all, just plug and play with the original ecu which saved me another $500.

[tinkerbell]

Can anyone here define how different the HONDATA and power FC really are ?

no, i cant *define* it,

but here is a table i made up comparing features:

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/ECU%20Features.htm

here is one for NA 'street only' car:

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/ECU%20FeaturesStreet.htm

[yourfather]

that's great tinkerbell, but isn't the price that you quoted Hondata S200 for an OBD II car, without boost, so you'd have to add extra money to unlock the boost features?

[bennjamin]

that's great tinkerbell, but isn't the price that you quoted Hondata S200 for an OBD II car, without boost, so you'd have to add extra money to unlock the boost features?

+ $400 (RR) it seems for unit alone upgraded.

[tinkerbell]

yes thanks for that, updated...

(requires refresh/reload to show up)

[tinkerbell]

nope, never mentioned that, read again

Okay, i've taken your advice and i still get stuck at, "as my research appears to be leading me to a different conclusion..." In reference to a statement by another member suggesting that his research presented the Hondata as a superior unit. I realise that different doesn't equate to opposite, but it can easily be construed that way. So to end all confusion, in the context of your original post, does different mean different as in one unit being no better or worse than the other, or does different mean opposite.
different as in different, i.e. my conclusion is that it might be just as “tuneable” as Hondata. That is, not any more tuneable, not any less?

To make it clear – same stuff, different colour…

Just to clarify the context of my "as my research appears to be leading me to a different conclusion..." that was directed to Shebangs who talked of “tuneability” and I wanted to know why he thought it was more tuneable?

My “different” conclusion was that they might be as “tuneable” as each other… also with specific reference later in the thread to Hondata actually having more “tuneable points” but asking if anyone could say what that this in reality provides. (I see AH HUH has indicated that his boosted DC2 with PowerFC ran quite well…)


i am up fro a PowerFC/Hondata swap - but who to pay for tuning?

My guess is that if someone is willing to come to the party and agree to purchase the ECU based on the result of the shootout, the tuner may be a tad more accommodating towards this comparo. Obviously this represents a can of worms, and there are a million ways for this deal to go pear-shaped, but it'd work if everyone was as simple as i am...
Nah, Can’o’worms is spot on!

but who knows? maybe that is too presumptious? maybe Hondata is the best, and no-one is telling us in an objective factual way?

You aren't going to get an unbiased response, because at the end of the day people will either defend their purchasing decisions, defend their mates' decisions or argue for or against a product based on their feelings towards the distributor of the product. The only people that are worth listening to on this topic are the tuners, and they studiously avoid taking sides in these arguments.
And I have resisted quoting what tuners have told me for that reason ;)

and how do you weight each of the pros and cons in order of importance?

All i can see is cost vs result. What are the pros and cons of each system as you see it?
maybe you do up a pros/cons of PowerFC, i will do a pro/con of Hondata? see how it looks?

is full throttle launch more desirable than a hand controller?

The hand controller is a gimmick plain and simple.
according to you? on what basis? have you used one extensively?

A tuner would need to sit on the dyno for 6-8 hours to tune a car from scratch using a hand controller. Most serious tuners would be using the proper desktop software, making the hand controller a redundant "feature".
The hand controller is not necessarily for tuning (although it can be used to tune), it is for real-time monitoring...

A S200 with data logging and a cheapo palm unit provides proper data-logging for a very low cost. How much is the FCdata-logit?
~$350

maybe for a drag racer, but not a daily driven street car?

What is the value of a hand controller for a daily driver? If it can't data-log, what use is it for either road or track?
Monitoring.

and when determining "best", how does one factor in cost?

How do you factor cost into any automotive performance related purchase?
It's always going to be a balancing act between anticipated results, marketing of the product and overall cost. Some people will pay a premium price for a premium product eg. Autronic. Others -myself for example- are far more price sensitive.
Well, that could well be one of my points.

and how much difference does less "tuneable points" actually mean?

I have no idea. I have assumptions of what tuneable point are, but i don't believe it is as simple as that.
if i were to guess, i think "tuneability" and "driveability" are inextricably linked...

and what is the end goal?
MAX horsepower? best area under curve? smoothest idle? best fuel economy? least knock? best cold start? shortest tuning time?

What is the end goal for pretty much anyone purchasing an aftermarket ECU?
More area under the curve? Better control of larger injectors? anti-lag? data-logging?

At the end of the day it's about making the motor use the available fuel more efficiently, thus making more power, while delivering improvements in economy and throttle response.
So really anything that can do this is a good ECU, and anything additional is a gimmick?

I don't know of anyone that purchased an ECU based on tuning time, but if they were to use that as a yardstick, I’m fairly certain that a PowerFC tuned via hand controller would be somewhere down the back of the pack.
Hand controller is not for tuning (although it can be used to tune).

and for Hondata purchasers in WA or NT or Tas?

do you factor in the geographic non-ubiquity of the tuners who are *allowed* to tune Hondata? or is that irrelevant to determining the worth of a ECU system? if you did, this could place Hondata behind the back of the pack for some users...

[yourfather]

I'm a little frustrated, because, my original question I asked was, do I need to purchase additional features for a Power FC to run boost.

The question was answered : NO, I do not need to, but if I want datalogging, I need to pay additional for an aftermarket box called FC Datalogit.

Whyfore we have this Hondata VS Power FC, I only asked if I needed to purchase additional, and stated the main ostensible reason behind me buying the Power FC is 1) I'd prefer to save the 400 bucks on buying the boost component and get it tuned 2) I'm going to be using it for my daily driven street car, therefore, full throttle launch, g-force, lag reduction systems, etc, is not necessary.

[tinkerbell]

are you asking us to leave your thread?

[yourfather]

no, I said, I am a little frustrated that it became a whole Hondata VS Power FC debate. Although tinkerbell, you have done a good job of highlighting just how reasonably priced Power FC is for my needs.

[Mashimaro]

Just a quick question. Although I have already come to my conclusion and purchased Power Fc due to lack of Hondata support in Melbourne, a all these debate between hondata vs power fc ON THIS THREAD Boost based? N/A based or overall?

[Limbo]

i though James was in melb to tune hondata?

Anyway i can tell you its fine using the hand controller to tune your car its just not as efficient, I did my Wolf3d with the hand controller also.

I'm looking at getting the power FC too just cos i can take it around later to alot more different people to tune.

On another point;
So the Power FC has less tunable rmps then hondata?

[yourfather]

I would prefer a licensed mechanic, like Adrian or DynoDave, who works on racecars, to tune my vehicle thankyou.

[Mashimaro]

i though James was in melb to tune hondata?

Anyway i can tell you its fine using the hand controller to tune your car its just not as efficient, I did my Wolf3d with the hand controller also.

I'm looking at getting the power FC too just cos i can take it around later to alot more different people to tune.

On another point;
So the Power FC has less tunable rmps then hondata?

1 hondata tuner with no customer service skills vs the amount of other avaiable tuners in melbourne doesnt cut it.

Up in syd you have dyno dav and adrian which a rep...where as we have james down here which i shal leave no comment.

[tinkerbell]

no, I said, I am a little frustrated that it became a whole Hondata VS Power FC debate. Although tinkerbell, you have done a good job of highlighting just how reasonably priced Power FC is for my needs.

sorry for turning it into a vs thread, but this is a constantly raised topic, i hope your thread assists those in the future with similar queries?

Mashimaro - no it is not simply boost, it is both, "overall" if you like.

limbo - i took the max RPM from the hondatech.com.au site, and have not independently verified it, so it might be wrong...

it is on the list of "to clarify"...

[Weq]

Ive driven a powerfc, hondata, autronic, uberdata and piggybacked turbo honda. All have driven basically the same. My best advice, pick a tuner and then grab whatever ecu he is comfortable with. Dont take shortcuts..

re launch, antilag (2-3step etc): i find these features very handy for a street driven fwd car. allows for presicse launches and safe, fast shifts. Datalogging, well is an advanced fault/tuneing feature to allow precise mapping and power delivery. When DynoDave tuned my car with hondata s200, we used the auto-tuning features and my wideband o2 to get all partial throttle maps spot on during street tuning. The result was a precise lambda in cruise, allowing 4-500km's a tank with 170kw atw. Oh, and this was fulltime open loop!

[superR]

bla bla bla..... just go see a tuner as weq said and get an ecu he is comfortable with otherwise you will never get the best tune outta that particular person.

[IV73CI]

wow. ... i know its old ..but this is the funniest sh1t ive read all day in OH. ;)

glad that its sorted now since 06...

keepin the peace :)

[lilthug]

wow 5+ year old bump