Stock Honda + boost = damaged engine

[poweredbyhonda]

Don't know why some people decide to turbo their Honda without nowing what they need before hand.

Maybe some people here would like to list tips as to how they have kept their Honda turbos alive.

[pornstar]

Dont boost stock h22a at 12 psi and lkeep it near redline without a good clutch. When u get a good clutch dont boost and keep it near redline while hardshifting, or else u will need a new gerabox. MEh, but ludes still own tegs ;)

[toE]

Dont boost stock h22a at 12 psi and lkeep it near redline without a good clutch. When u get a good clutch dont boost and keep it near redline while hardshifting, or else u will need a new gerabox. MEh, but ludes still own tegs ;)

u sure u know wat u talking bout mate?? :wink:

[poweredbyhonda]

Hehehehe he knows cause he copped it. What he meant was don't boost a stock H22A over 12 psi which I think really should be 6 psi tuned. Also don't try running a stock clutch on a boosted Honda.
I copped it too.

[VTi-RT]

It really depends on your setup and your tuner... I've seen honda's tuned to run 12psi and haven't had any problems... then again I've seen honda's tuned to 7-8psi and blow rings and bend rods.

At the very end it comes down to your feet. Tramp it every now and then and you should be ok, but do it everytime your driving and you'll end up breaking something.

[poid]

12psi on a H22A will screw the ringlands, they are weak. 12psi can be done on B and F series with good tuning.

Most important thing is research...make sure you know what needs to be done and what each part does, cos when something does work properly you either have to figure stuff out for yourself or blow wads of money.

Knowledge also helps you know how you should and shouldnt be driving it...the majority of blown engines are either poor tuning or user error.

[poweredbyhonda]

Pornstar & I have blown heaps of money and I have been through alot! I have tried nearly every shortcut in the book. You either spend the money and do it properly or don't turbo it at all. Even on a properly tuned stock motor is no good. I've spent over $15,000 on my motor and it's still isn't finished. How I have spent it is due to some poorly made manifolds, rebuidling, dyno tuning, re piping, and all extra hardware which I never thought I needed.

[pornstar]

Agree with mr poweredbyhonda, Its not just about shortcuts, its also about knowing what the limits are and what they are not. POID, please dont get me wrong, but this forum is abit different to others and not really about what i have heard etc. Can you tell me that you blew ur ringlands at 12 psi on ur stock h22a? or is this something that you have heard?

I heard the same thing about the stock h22a's etc etc, but the truth is, the ring lands were fine. I blew other stuff up not the ring lands.

If i were to do a cheap turbo conversion, and i know not everyone will agree with me, I would skimp on the turbo size, the intercooler, but I wouldnt ever skimp on fuel and management.

[vti-2]

but I wouldnt ever skimp on fuel and management.

werd!

[wynode]

If i were to do a cheap turbo conversion, and i know not everyone will agree with me, I would skimp on the turbo size, the intercooler, but I wouldnt ever skimp on fuel and management.


I think that goes hand in hand with good tuning. :thumbsup:

[poid]

Can you tell me that you blew ur ringlands at 12 psi on ur stock h22a? or is this something that you have heard?

I heard the same thing about the stock h22a's etc etc, but the truth is, the ring lands were fine. I blew other stuff up not the ring lands.



I dont have a H22A, so of course i havent had that experience. However i think it pays to listen to people who have done so. It depends on engine as well, you may have got a good engine or just got lucky, or perhaps you blew the other stuff before the ringlands had a chance to go. There are so many possibilities. One experience doesnt mean it'll be like that for everyone ;)

[pornstar]

hey poid. Im not having a go at ya at all, its just that u shouldnt believe what anyone else says unless they have done it.

What i heard of a mates mate becomes chinese whispers, and you'll find that what you hear is untrue most of the time when u actually do stuff.

I think poweredbyhonda was unlucky he had to spend the amount of money that he did because of the workshop he used were not very good at what they did.

As for the h22a, the honest truth is, there was no problem at 6 psi, and actually at 12psi there was still no problem, the problem was really me not budgeting a complete conversion to include a clutch. and things led from that.

[poid]

hey poid. Im not having a go at ya at all, its just that u shouldnt believe what anyone else says unless they have done it.


I totally agree, and that's why i have spent hours scouring US boards and have read plenty of "i destroyed my ringlands" or "my cylinder walls didnt hold up" stories from H22A owners. Hence i would be wary running anything over about 8-9psi unless i was absolutely sure on the condition of the engine and was 100% sure the tuner would do the job for me.

It dpesnt mean that every engine will blow its ringlands of course, but it has been identified as a weakness. Of course, you have to keep in mind the whole setup of each person that has done it and the tuning of setups seems to be where we here have an advantage, because we dont do things by half measures (ie VAFC "hacks" or check valves).

Fair enough you never know until you try, but you also have to bear in mind the experiences of others as it can save you a lot of pain, and also money.

Anyway these are all things to consider...its all up to the individual as to how far they wanna push the limits (and how deep their wallet is if something does let go)

[wynode]

Not jumping on any bandwagon here, but i've read up a bit on turbo H22a's and one of the first things that people have done when going above 8psi is to resleave the cylinders, as they are meant to be one of the weakenesses in a forced H22a setup.

-my 2cents

[A.C.S DRAG]

always remember to replace your oil cap after topping up with oil.

[vti-2]

always remember to replace your oil cap after topping up with oil.

:lol:

[pornstar]

I say dont respeak hearsay because the reason for this is that theres alot of differences. Ill try and explain some of them, the main factor that you might want to consider is that the US people use an Adjustable Fuel pressure Regulator which is boost dependant. As you can tell, its not a very good management tool, and they use these methods regularly to manage the turbo system, you might want to think about why they blow stuff. That and the fact that they push alot of psi daily with these sorts of setups.

Yes it does pay to listen, but it doesnt pay to listen to people who dont know what they are doing, or to people who are skimping. Wynode, the reason why they resleave is that the first thing u change in any turbo setup for reliability is forged pistons and rods, the h22a uses a composite material on its cylinder sleeves, which cannt be used with forged rods, therefore sleeving is a must when changing out pistons and rods.

Anyway, if I seem to be having a go at ya, im not poid. Just dont like letting myths on other boards jump to this one, especially when its so pure ;)

[poweredbyhonda]

I agree with both Poid and Pornstar. Sometimes you can't really beleive all the info you hear but there are some really good articels and forums out there which really know what they are tallking about.
Make sure you use that damn oil cap!
Im no good with H22a's so I can't back up Pornstar. He has done his research and has had a H22a turbo.
For really good info on Integras try http://team-integra.net for on of the best info forums and articles on B18's straight from the US.

[poid]

I know you're not having a go, discussions like these are what good boards are made up of :)

You are 100% correct about the H22A sleeves, the material they are made from does not work well with forgies and hence resleeving is a must. However there are people running stock sleeves and forgies and reliably...though of course that wont last. The reason they change to forgies though is to do with concerns about the ringlands, unlike say a B series where people run 300+hp on stock block (admittedly with decent tuning most of the time).

Yes the FMU setups they use are junk...thats one thing i mentioned in my last post, the setups they use vary. They are fine while the FMU works properly as they run the engine so rich it cant detonate without something going wrong. Though what often happens is the FMU itself fails and BANG! Thank god this is one aspect we are managing to avoid here!

[pornstar]

you do realise that the fuel grade that they use to get those numbers right? Just clarifying because theres no way, and Ill bet my sweet right butt cheek on this, that a stock b18c will make 300whp in australia, without race gas, pushing the motor to breaking point, and changing the way that we calculate horespower v the US horsepower.

Alot of people dont realise that the people who tune in the US getting big numbers are running thicker gaskets, race gas, and pushing their motor to breakpoint. also their measure of hp is alot higher than ours, and the dynos that they use grade hp alot higher to ours.

BLKCRX has been alittle quiet on this board, but if you ask him, he will tell you alot of the differences. James car making something along the lines of about 280kws at the wheels right now, if u take the conversion rate thats about 350whp, yet in the US, they claim to get 300whp from just a bolt on kit@8psi. Yet James' car is farkn fast, and his trap speeds equal those of 10 sec street cars in the US...

Just trying to keep info as clean as possible. Cheers

[poid]

yeh their dyno's are slightly optimistic as well, but i'm trying to compare like with like. I've seen plenty of 300whp claims without race gas and have never seen such a claim from a H22A stock block (the H22A destroys the B series in torque however!). They do usually claim to be running 12psi+ when they make 300hp claims though (i dont think i would believe 300hp and 8psi claims, unless they are using stupidly large turbines and have altered the rev limit and are hoping it wont blow).

The street fuel they have is crappy octane also in many states, granted they will use premium but its usually only about 95RON as far as i know. So unless they are using race gas, as you said, fuel isnt a major concern as it is with, say, Japanese fuels.

But yeh, US hp is not what we would get...i'm comparing US hp numbers though not US to aussie.

[poweredbyhonda]

Goes to show how easier it is to do a boost setup on a B18C. No sleeves required, just a block guard itself should be able to support 15psi (roughly over 200 fwkw with the exception of rods & pistons that is). Another thing they have in common is the stock pistons which also have a very weak point on the ring lands. This information i got off John G form JG in the US. He said the pistons are safe up until 8psi and then after that the ring lands tend to let go. What he said was true indeed! My car was tuned on 9 psi from Hyper tech (these guys do not know what they are doing!). Bought it to Technik Tuning for a retune. Blowed smoke, piston ring gone! You can guess why. Now I am up for a full set of forgies.

[BLKCRX]

Hey guys just to add, been watching this thred over the last few days, hmm some funny fake lies have been said.. what a laugh.

Anyway 3psi or more on any Honda engine will blow almost all Stock Honda engines regardless of tuning, FMU devices or what not, used along with the stock engine, and why because the Honda engine isn’t designed for boost, and what kills any Honda engine on 3psi or more psi ? The DRIVER !!! and the way he / she drives the car.

Staying in boost in 5th gear, boosting when the engine is cold boosting for long periods, anything more than a squirts here and there will more than likely kill your engine in time, and what will blow, well always the weakest link, but that is again dependent on the way the car is driven at the time.


Yes you can run many Honda engines 12 15psi+ totally stock on the dyno in a controlled environment, hell you can even race down the 1/4, as even ¼ racing ist that much more stressful on the engine than dynoing, but once you start driving a car hard on the street this is where the problems are and where anything can fail very quickly.

Now has for fuels all this 90RON 95RON etc means bugger all, simple fact is the US use different ratings for there fuel than us, you can not compare apples with oranges.

USA’s basic fuel so called 89RON is much much better than our optimax and s8000 fuels, sadly we live in a very tightly controlled EPA regulated country.

On another note most people in the USA have access to 115RON fuel from the pump, which is better than our best racing fuels !! even there racing gas is a much better grade than ours, so you just can’t compare, hell even there race tracks are prepared differently helping cars go faster with less power there just isn’t any international standard so don’t believe there is. Learn from what works or doesn’t work by research from over sea’s yes, but as for comparing data numbers results etc it just can not be done.

The same goes for dyno’s as mentioned above in pornstars post, again no international standard has ever been set, this causes even problems within our own states comparing dyno results from different workshops, is one dyno shop a better tuner because there dyno reads higher ? sadly most people think oh wow that workshop tuned 20more KW out of my car there the best, when in fact they didn’t make that power, its just data miss interrupted. Yes some workshops can tune better than others, yes some give you much better throttle response, but at the end of the day all a dyno will do is give you a correct air fuel ratio, somewhere around optimal lambda 0.88 will give you the most power when in boost, although even this figure changes according to dyno o2 sensors fuel’s and engines. The other thing dynos can be used for is ignition tuning, advancing / retarding ignition where required, these are the only 2 things dyno’s are good for, power output is just a magically generated number. Again both airfuel and ignition tuning can only be as good as the equipment used, the detailed in which its tuned and the tuner, then you have the factor of the driver and how the car is driven.




Anyway that’s enough info ! eheh for now…… hope the above information helps…

Regards James

[pornstar]

nope the above info is useless! please refrain from posting useless info james ;) haha

but yeah, i agree, theres no way u can learn from overseas experience just because there is too many variables. The thing is the best way to compare things i probably the Terminal speeds at the track. I looked at James terminal velocity, and compare those to 10s cars over there!

hope it all helps

[BLKCRX]

lol @ info is useless INFO !! HEHE BITE ME

EHEH Regards James

[poid]

As far as fuels go: the US uses what it calls the Cost of Living Council (CLC) rating while Australia uses the Research Octane Number (RON). There is another rating called the Motor Octane Number (MON). The relationship is: CLC = (RON + MON)/2.

Regular unleaded in the US is 87 CLC, which is roughly 91 RON (so same as our regular). Special unleaded in the US is 89 CLC which is something like 93 RON. Premium unleaded is 91 CLC which is 95 RON. The highest normal pump fuel on the east coast of the US is typically 95 CLC (probably 98 or 99RON) while in Cali it is 92 CLC (prolly 96 or 97 RON, and this is prolly because of their CARB emissions standards). Certain service stations have higher octane fuels, but they are not the mainstreams fuels.

So that is the conversion factors from US to Aussie fuel ratings (in fact i believe RON is used pretty much everywhere except the US).

I agree, reliability has a huge amount to do with the right foot of the driver. There is only a certain amount of heat a Honda engine in stock form can take, and guys who dont understand this boost away until they cook pistons. Driving correctly (using an EGT helps) will increase the reliability dramatically.

Dynos are different everywhere, that is a known fact. The dyno is simply a device that assists a tuner to accurately tune a car, and unless the runs are made back to back, same dyno, same conditions and same operator (who has not altered the parameters) comparing dyno runs isnt at all useful.

The strips in the US may be prepared differently but they cant be that dramatically different, after all there are seriously quick non-Honda cars here that rip what the US has to offer in the same category. That there is a difference is almost certain however, just as there is a difference between tracks all over this country.

So yeh, pretty much in agreement there :)

[pornstar]

if u dont think that the tracks arent that much different, look at the terminal speeds of cars down here and compared that to the cars in the usa...

as for fuels, what they say etc is also under suspicion. they think a b18c can make 300whp, comapre that to the standard of about 140kws at the wheels down here in aus..

[poid]

Just thought i'd pull some random terminal speed numbers down from the US: (i simply noted the first 10 times i came across, so they are completely random and just a small sample...using just for comparison purposes and not to suggest that these are the mph that should be run for each time).

12.7@109
13.4@107
14.8@95
11.8@123
11.4@118
12.8@109
11.8@116
10.9@131
11.3@125
11.9@119

Some aussie times for comparison:

11.7@124
11.6@129
11.5@117
11.4@129
11.3@125
11.2@127
10.7@143

Some of the above are comparable, while for some the US cars have a significantly lower mph. This may be track differences, however it is difficult to say as there are many other variables (ie tyres and suspension setups would definitely differ between the aussie and US cars). SO based on this sample and my judgement the jury is out on that one for me.

Explain what you mean by the fuels thing? If you just mean that people are saying "yeh i got 300hp on pump" when they really used a race fuel, that is definitely possible.

[vti-2]

You also need to take into consideration the sea level, atmospheric temperature etc. If you think that doesn't affect times, think again.

Anyway, back on topic...

[poid]

Yeh totally, i forgot to add that in my post 2 above :)

[pornstar]

To summarise my point is quite simple. I dont like to repeat what others have said, even if they are in Australia for the simple fact that there are way too many variables. To be able to say anything with 100% accuracy would be to state something that had happened to you, at a certain time, doing a certain thing!

It all falls back to the point that my h22a ringland, sleeves, gearbox, clutch etc held up to the boost levels that I was running without a problem. Therefore I dont agree with the notion that the H22a ringlands are weak.

Another thing that the US example has differed to my own is the use of block gaurds. Yes it makes more common sense that getting the factory sleeves machined away and replaced with harder stronger sleeves less prone to cracking is a better way to go, yet there are 2 cars in NSW that runs blockgaurds with high boost wtihout a problem.

All it boils down to is that u should be careful what u repeat as having heard from someone, because things get misinterpreted or crucial info is left out, etc.

Cheers

[Rufes1]

always remember to replace your oil cap after topping up with oil.

I have done this now TWICE in the 8 months I have owned my car!!! My dad did it once and paid for me to get a full engine steam clean. Then a month later I did it!!!

Both times we lost the caps and they are $20 EACH!

Thats a big one to remember :P

[A.C.S DRAG]

your lucky, i blew my motor cause i didnt have enough oil, lol. expensive lesson. done it twice to, i bought myself a mugen oil cap to sorta make my mind remember. its worked so far. dont wanna lose a 100 buck oil cap

[wynode]

heheh try this:

Drove all the way from Sydney to Canberra (on a hot day), the soon as we stopped all this coolant startted comming from under the car.

Turned out I had filled the radiator with water and forgot to put the cap back on!! Luckily the cap was still sitting in the place i kept it in the engine bay :)

[vti-2]

You guys are shocking... :shock:

[VTi-RT]

Vic's + John,

Wait till you hear the latest thing that happened to the Misses car. :evil:

[A.C.S DRAG]

Already Know. condolenses to the turbine wheel.

[VTi-RT]

yeah, talk about bad luck... I bought a K&N filter as well. :(

[wynode]

heheh try this:

Drove all the way from Sydney to Canberra (on a hot day), the soon as we stopped all this coolant startted comming from under the car.

Turned out I had filled the radiator with water and forgot to put the cap back on!! Luckily the cap was still sitting in the place i kept it in the engine bay :)

PS: THat wasn't my car, it was the parents old fairmont :)