Toda B Vs Toda C

[Mashimaro]

If i've already got toda C's on my dc2r with valvetrains done but no port polish no modified manifold would i better off replacing it with toda Bs? Or would C's still put out sufficent power but wont be used to its full potential? After dyno tuning?

I didnt get the figures i wanted after dyno tuning my car and also not happy with the way it was tuned. So would i be better off just leaving it and getting car retuned it or would it be more benifical gettin Stage 2 cams which doesnt really need any extras and then getting it dyno tuned?

Biggest issue here is getting what i can with little money. I'm no longer working and a student and it takes helllllllllllll of a long time to save up this far. Hence i ask am i better of just re-tuning it saving me money on new cams and labour but there would be no point of the C's aint beneficial in this case.

[jimmeh]

reference:http://www.hondatech.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=537

Integra VTIR
Int-230 dur. / 10.6mm lift
Exh-227 dur. / 9.4mm lift

Civic VTIR '99 Spec
Int-240 dur. / 10.7mm lift
Exh-227 dur. / 9.4mm lift

Integra Type-R Pre '99 Spec
Int-240 dur. / 11.5mm lift
Exh-235 dur. / 10.5mm lift

Civic Type-R And Integra Type-R
Int-243 dur. / 11.5mm lift
Exh-235 dur. / 10.5mm lift

Rocket Motorsports M21
IntakeLift 11.7mm / Duration 236
ExhaustLift 11.6mm / Duration 226

Rocket Motorsports M22
Intake Lift 12mm / Duration 236
Exhaust Lift 12mm / Duration 226

Rocket Motorsports M24
Intake Lift 12.9mm / Duration 262
Exhaust Lift 12mm / Duration 270

Spoon Sports
Int-256 dur. / 11.5mm lift
Exh-245 dur. / 11.1mm lift

Toda Spec A
Int-250 dur. / 11.6mm lift
Exh-240 dur. / 11.2mm lift

Toda Spec B
Int-255 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-245 dur. / 12.0mm lift

Toda Spec C
Int-255 dur. / 12.5mm lift
Exh-255 dur. / 12.5mm lift

Toda Spec D (Estimated)
Int-265 dur. / 12.9mm lift
Exh-275 dur. / 11.9mm lift

Toda VTEC Killer
Int-265 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-255 dur. / 11.5mm lift

JUN Type 1
Int-265 dur. / 10.9mm lift
Exh-268 dur. / 10.0mm lift

JUN Type 2
Int-267 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-265 dur. / 10.9mm lift

JUN Type 3
Int-265 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-265 dur. / 11.5mm lift

Skunk2 Stage 1
Int-252 dur. / 11.6mm lift
Exh-249 dur. / 10.8mm lift

Skunk2 Stage 2
Int-266 dur. / 12.3mm lift
Exh-262 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Skunk2 Stage 3
Int-270 dur. / 12.8mm lift
Exh-279 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Skunk2 Turbo (specs seem low? I called them, the VTEC now has less overlap, great for turbo http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthup.gif )
Int-230 dur. / 9.7mm lift
Exh-225 dur. / 8.9mm lift

Crane Stage 1
Int-243 dur. / 11.6mm lift
Exh-237 dur. / 10.8mm lift

Crane Stage 2
Int-248 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-242 dur. / 11.6mm lift

Crane Stage 3
Int-254 dur. / 12.4mm lift
Exh-248 dur. / 12.0mm lift

Crower 400 (not converted yet)
Int- dur. / 10.7mm lift
Exh- dur. / 9.6mm lift

Crower 401 (not converted yet)
Int- dur. / 11.3mm lift
Exh- dur. / 10.5mm lift

Crower 401T (not converted yet)
Int- dur. / 11.8mm lift
Exh- dur. / 11.3mm lift

Crower 402A
Int-232 dur. / 11.8mm lift
Exh-228 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Crower 402
Int-237 dur. / 11.8mm lift
Exh-228 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Crower 403
Int-246 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-238 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Crower 411T
Int-242 dur. / 11.8mm lift
Exh-238 dur. / 11.3mm lift

Crower 412
Int-260 dur. / 11.8mm lift
Exh-252 dur. / 11.8mm lift

Crower 413
Int-269 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-258 dur. / 11.8mm lift

[panda[cRx]]

i don't think the specs mean much to mashi.... or the majority of ppl on ozhonda for that matter. your post did not answer a single one of his questions :confused:

that's like throwing a 4 year old an encyclopdia and telling them to read.
anyone can read specs but understanding what they mean is another thing.

(i don't mean to be a c*nt jimmeh but i'm sure u get what i mean? :))

[kyle]

To my knowledge Toda C (And other Stage 3) camshafts, because of there high lift and duriation need quite a high Compression ratio to make power. But your car being a type R I would think would already have a high compression ratio, but perhaps something around the area of 12 - 12.5:1 is needed.

Perhaps try refining some searches around this topic may bring some results.

- Kyle

[kyle]

QUOTE http://www.modacar.com

"Toda Racing offers high compression forged pistons for the Honda B series DOHC VTEC engines. The kit comes complete with forged pistons, rings, clips, and heavy duty wrist pins. Offers great gains when combined with Spec B and Spec C camshafts. Toda pistons maintain the Honda factory piston to wall clearance and allow for quiet and reliable operation."

[pwr2w8]

You definately need high comp pistons and i don't think your pistons are above 12.5:1 anything lower than this your wasting your time with toda c.

[Jomsy]

why dont you go straight to the source and ring or PM adrien at toda

[Weq]

u need above 12.5:1 comp to take any advanatge from these cam's. That or a turbo :P ALso u need to rev higher.

to panda: this guy hasnt learnt a thing and now has wasted his money a shitty combination of parts and is blaming everyone else. If he had a little more theory in his repatour, he WOULD not have made the mistake. Jimmeh answered things perfectly.

[Mashimaro]

u need above 12.5:1 comp to take any advanatge from these cam's. That or a turbo :P ALso u need to rev higher.

to panda: this guy hasnt learnt a thing and now has wasted his money a shitty combination of parts and is blaming everyone else. If he had a little more theory in his repatour, he WOULD not have made the mistake. Jimmeh answered things perfectly.

Have I stated once I blamed anyone else? No. Have i said I paid for the cams? What it was already there when i purchased my car? And obviously I don't know the theory behind hence i asked for a bit of advice which you answered and many others so i can fix the problem.

You really need to check the facts before attacking others. My knowledge aint that great hence I'm asking for a bit of advice.

[Weq]

Have I stated once I blamed anyone else? No. Have i said I paid for the cams? What it was already there when i purchased my car? And obviously I don't know the theory behind hence i asked for a bit of advice which you answered and many others so i can fix the problem.

You really need to check the facts before attacking others. My knowledge aint that great hence I'm asking for a bit of advice.

You blamed the tuner. Dont make me quote u. U have no idea, yet u had the nerv to criticise a someone who knows how to operate and tune a PowerFC/Dyno.

A little bit of advice, think before u post, idiot. Idiots cant build FAST NA honda's. This has been demonstrated thousands of times over by Ozhonda members. *sigh*

[Mashimaro]

I didn't blame the tuner for the internals i blamed the tuner for the unfortunate tuning. My car does not even rev past 7.2rpms because it chokes and dropps out. It doesnt even hit vtec any more as vtec is set at 7.4 and as stated car dropps out at 7.2rpm. My car wasnt doing this prior to tuning. Once again i will admit the my limited knowledge but its pretty obvious its the tuners fault for the car to choke out. And i've had a second and third opinon from other tuners that the first tuner boged my tuning. I wouldnt make such a claim if i didnt get a second opinon or in this case third opinon.

I admit I did blame the tuner for lack of power but I do take that back since i've found out the combination was wrong but he still stuffed up the tuning. The driveablity of my car is now screwed. I also found out my car is one of many that his stuffed up. I do kick myself for not doing further research at the time but gotta live with that one.

Can i aslo ask another noob quetion or am i gonna get attacked by you again? For those that can asnwer this question do i need to further change fuel pumps, injectors if i replace cams wiht toda b or can i get away with stock parts?

[sivic]

you're stock fuel system will cope fine

[Weq]

<snip>

Can i aslo ask another noob quetion or am i gonna get attacked by you again? For those that can asnwer this question do i need to further change fuel pumps, injectors if i replace cams wiht toda b or can i get away with stock parts?

I was not attacking you for asking a question. I attacked Panda for such a stupid and childish comment. You would think the mods would have learnt. I then rebutted your retaliation.

As for your stock fuel system copeing with your goal, i would ask the tuner for his recommendation. What is ur current peak injector duty cycle (can be found on the PFC hand controller) If you can infact make more power i would probably think an adjustable FPR or slightly larger injectors are in order. HP = more fueling requirements. NA hp requires less fuel then turbo HP to maintain a safe A/F ratio.

[spoondc2]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16739

Hope this helps, i am doing research on Toda cams also
Seems like even Toda B need higher compression to work well regarding to info on honda-tech

[TODA AU]

you're stock fuel system will cope fine
That's not entirley true...
You should have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator & an increased flow / capacity fuel pump.

Mashimaro, even with low (stock) compression your car should still make more power than stock. Further it should be smooth & torquey.
If you're having issues it is probable that the cam timing is out.

[panda[cRx]]

I was not attacking you for asking a question. I attacked Panda for such a stupid and childish comment. You would think the mods would have learnt.

childish comment? errrr ok. i was merely stating that i'm sure most forum users would prefer to be educated on the topic rather than be fed a list of figures that mean nothing to them. instead of flaming everyone that doesnt have the same knowledge base as you how about trying to help the situation?

and there u were implying he was an 'idiot' for buying toda C's when in fact they were already on the car when he bought em

and fyi i resigned moderating some time ago, i'm just waiting for a replacement lol

[spoondc2]

That's not entirley true...
You should have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator & an increased flow / capacity fule pump.

Mashimaro, even with low (stock) compression your car should still make more power than stock. Further it should be smooth & torquey.
If you're having issues it is probable that the cam timing is out.

Just wondering for Toda B do i need adjustable fuel pressure regulator and larger fuel pump? Also need to adjust the cam timing with cam installation or leave it to the dyno tuner?

[TODA AU]

Just wondering for Toda B do i need adjustable fuel pressure regulator and larger fuel pump? Also need to adjust the cam timing with cam installation or leave it to the dyno tuner?

For best output you should fit a larger pump & adjustable reg.
When the cams are timed corectly, you'll max out the std injectors without an increase in fuel pressure & flow.
This applies to Spec B's as much as it does Spec C's.

Regarding cam intallation / timing.
If you fit them per the cam card & have a LCA of 102.5deg (Spec B) or 105deg (Spec C) this is a good starting point depending on combination.
Moreover, it's probably correct & won't need to be touched on the dyno if you're using all TODA parts.
That said, many times I've had to re-time suposedly correctly timed camshafts.
If you've got a TDC guage & a dial indicator, check that you're acheiving 1mm of valve lift @ TDC on both inlet & exhaust on the low cam.
Anticlockwise engine rotation must be observed as reverse operation will give a fasle reading due to slack on the tensioner side.
Hope that helps.

Adrian

[Mashimaro]

In the end i don't think i got my answer.

Question: will it be benifical for me to run toda C with stock bottom end and getting retune or better of changing toda B then re tune. Keep in mind Toda C is already in my car.

(i was mislead by bigger is better and in this case bigger might not be better.

[TODA AU]

In the end i don't think i got my answer.

Question: will it be benifical for me to run toda C with stock bottom end and getting retune or better of changing toda B then re tune. Keep in mind Toda C is already in my car.

(i was mislead by bigger is better and in this case bigger might not be better.

B18C's generally to make better power through the rev range using a Spec B camshaft over a Spec C camshaft when the compression ration is near std.
(Due to longer stroke, higher piston speed. 102.5 LCA is more suitable)
In a nut shell, if you can swap your cams with someone, you'll get a better spread of power, but not nessesarily higher peak power.
Bare in mind, you should still have good power with the Spec C camshafts.
Both Spec B & Spec C camshafts share the same low cam.
If you have low power output, poor driveability or other issues detracting from the car's performance, It is likley you also have tuning issues.

Cam timing is critical to making best power & achieving good driveability.
Hit and miss cam adjustments on the dyno are not recomeneded for these camshafts. They should be installed per cam card.

[locote]

just 1 question..
I have a SiR-G B18c in my civic im not realy sure of the compresion ratio of it, but would it be high enough to make more power through out the rev range with the Cs or Bs would a better choice..
Other mods would include Skunk2 pro manifold, TODA header, 2.5inch MBent zorst, Power FC tune.
An honest answer would be appreciated..

[TODA AU]

just 1 question..
I have a SiR-G B18c in my civic im not realy sure of the compresion ratio of it, but would it be high enough to make more power through out the rev range with the Cs or Bs would a better choice..
Other mods would include Skunk2 pro manifold, TODA header, 2.5inch MBent zorst, Power FC tune.
An honest answer would be appreciated..

For B18C maintaining the std bottom end, the Spec B camshafts is a better choice over Spec C's.

[todaek9]

for a TODA C to work, compression must be considered...above 12:1 at least. there is too much hassle if you are going for TODA C if you don't have a high budget.

and also, what kinda power are you expecting, mind telling????

i'd only got 132kw @ wheel on Optimax, and 145kw @ wheel with race fuel (ELF) on my previous car at 12.8:1 comp., and that my friend, is dissapointing...Plus, i've change everything + head work + 40hr on Dyno..

if you are expecting alot from just std bottom by using TODA C with least mods and no work done to the head, may be you should consider TODA B as a better alternative, or JUN Stage 3, or Spoon cams.

[TODA AU]

i'd only got 132kw @ wheel on Optimax, and 145kw @ wheel with race fuel (ELF) on my previous car at 12.8:1 comp., and that my friend, is dissapointing...Plus, i've change everything + head work + 40hr on Dyno..

Yours is not a good example of what is usual

[spoondc2]

for a TODA C to work, compression must be considered...above 12:1 at least. there is too much hassle if you are going for TODA C if you don't have a high budget.

and also, what kinda power are you expecting, mind telling????

i'd only got 132kw @ wheel on Optimax, and 145kw @ wheel with race fuel (ELF) on my previous car at 12.8:1 comp., and that my friend, is dissapointing...Plus, i've change everything + head work + 40hr on Dyno..

if you are expecting alot from just std bottom by using TODA C with least mods and no work done to the head, may be you should consider TODA B as a better alternative, or JUN Stage 3, or Spoon cams.

Just wondering is that a B16A + Toda C = 132kw on optimax?

[todaek9]

nope...that is wrong setup + bad tuner + bad workmanship = 132kw atw.

hahaha..

[gambate]

Regarding cam intallation / timing.
If you fit them per the cam card & have a LCA of 102.5deg (Spec B) or 105deg (Spec C) this is a good starting point depending on combination.
Moreover, it's probably correct & won't need to be touched on the dyno if you're using all TODA parts.
That said, many times I've had to re-time suposedly correctly timed camshafts.
If you've got a TDC guage & a dial indicator, check that you're acheiving 1mm of valve lift @ TDC on both inlet & exhaust on the low cam.
Anticlockwise engine rotation must be observed as reverse operation will give a fasle reading due to slack on the tensioner side.
Hope that helps.

Adrian

so the cam card specify LCA of 102.5deg (Spec B) and 105deg (Spec C)?
cause i have Spec B in the b18cR and idle is set at @1000~1100rpm (powerFC) by the dealer here in WA. sometime the idle would fluctuate (+/-200rpm) like its choking for air.
Edit: have Toda valve spring, cam gear and header, not sure with piston and head gasket thickness.

[TODA AU]

PM - Sent

[spoondc2]

so the cam card specify LCA of 102.5deg (Spec B) and 105deg (Spec C)?
cause i have Spec B in the b18cR and idle is set at @1000~1100rpm (powerFC) by the dealer here in WA. sometime the idle would fluctuate (+/-200rpm) like its choking for air.
Edit: have Toda valve spring, cam gear and header, not sure with piston and head gasket thickness.

Sounds like the initialisation on the powerfc hasn't done properly

[spoondc2]

nope...that is wrong setup + bad tuner + bad workmanship = 132kw atw.

hahaha..

Geez... i wish i have 132kw..... wonder what it feels like

[gambate]

Sounds like the initialisation on the powerfc hasn't done properly

.... and what process is that? elaborate plz.... thanks

[daniel b16a]

ive got a b16a then...and would like to keep bottom end stock...what cams should i get? toda b or c or jun 2 or 3 or 4? i dont really know the diff....what camns would giv the most power if i would like to keep my b16a bottom end stock and juz mod the top head?

[TODA AU]

If you're going to keep the bottom end stock,
Going too big in the cam is a waste of time.
You'll get best power & all round drivability from a set of Spec A camshafts.
The same can be said for near std DC2-R's (I/H/E)

[spoondc2]

.... and what process is that? elaborate plz.... thanks

Hmm.. i don't have the power fc manual here but it's in there, you may go to the apexi usa site to dl the manual.

Anyway there is something that i dunno. which is the instructions for initialisation are different between the jap manual and eng manual

[j3z3z]

is it cheaper to do high comp and cams on b16a or do the stroker kit (value for money)

[todaek9]

Geez... i wish i have 132kw..... wonder what it feels like

I can tell you how it feels...The Fuel drops down as quick as your RPM pops up...haha...

But too bad it was not done nicely, sad to say...One piece of advice, if you want to throw big money in your engine, better go to someone who does race engine all their life, or at least done a DRAG/Track car alot of times...

[daniel b16a]

If you're going to keep the bottom end stock,
Going too big in the cam is a waste of time.
You'll get best power & all round drivability from a set of Spec A camshafts.
The same can be said for near std DC2-R's (I/H/E)

so spec a's if im going to keep bottom end stock? how if i put spec b's? would i get much more power frm spec a's? also if i do buy spec a's do i need power fc or will vafc2 be enough? how much is hondata ecu diff frm power fc and can u use same ecu for turbo?

[todaek9]

Dude, it depends how much budget you've got. Work it out then only decide.