[Euro] Engine tappet noise

[aaronng]

Hey all,

Just compared my car to 3 other Euros. My engine tapping noise is loud. The tapping is still on the other cars but not as loud. It sounds like it's from the injector area though. I thought it would be a valve clearance issue instead. Anyone with ideas on why it is loud and how to get it fixed or to persuade the dealer (will probably say it is the injectors making noise)?

[EuroDude]

When was the last time you had the tappets adjusted?

The tappet sound could be trailing into the injector area and fooling your ears, possibly due to the plastic cover on the engine diverting the noise.

Otherwise if you are convinced its the injectors, you could try some injector cleaner fuel additive.


:honda:

[destrukshn]

adjusting tappets comes at every 40,000kms, i think.

[aaronng]

I took off the plastic cover.
My car has only 24000km on it. Not due for the valve clearance check yet until around December.

[EuroDude]

If you drive it hard (high RPM) them I would imagine the tappets will need an adjustment more often. I would get them adjusted and see how that goes, before venturing to other areas :thumbsup:

[Chris_F]

hmm sounds like i should get mine taken a look at, at some stage

[aaronng]

hmm sounds like i should get mine taken a look at, at some stage
Does yours tap loud? I'm contemplating taking a vid with high quality audio to show you all the tapping.

[msnealo]

I'm contemplating taking a vid with high quality audio to show you all the tapping.

Yeah do it. I'm a sucker for vids. And then we can all help.:thumbsup:

[Chris_F]

Does yours tap loud? I'm contemplating taking a vid with high quality audio to show you all the tapping.

Hmm not loud, but its noticeable when the engine is cold (just started up) - at least i think it goes away when it's warm.

A vid with high quality audio would def. clear things up

[EuroAccord13]

When Aaron was down at Melbourne, he listened to my car and my tapping noises come from the injectors which is weird (read below) and my is already so loud but Aaron claims his is louder..

My car is due for a 40000kms valve adjustment but the noise is just coming out of the injectors (with the cover removed)

Can injector cleaner solve this problem?

[TypeG]

I think that happen on every Euro which high rev b4
Mine does and my car is only 5000km
=(
ask Honda to fix next week

[BiLL|z0r]

I'd be interested in a sound clip as I have no idea what you're talking about, I don't hear any noises out of my engine other than revving engine noises.

[EuroDude]

@Billzor, you cant really hear it when in the cabin, especially when the windows are up.
If you lift the bonnet while the car is idling, you can hear the tappets and injectors tick away a few times a second. The sound sounds like a coin tapping on metal.


@TypeG, 5000km is too soon for loud tappet/injector noise, you are probably hearing the normal ticking noise honda engines make. Unless the factory did a dodgy adjustment.

[aaronng]

I already recorded a video before I started washing my car. My tapping noise comes when cold and warm, and only at idle. When you rev the engine, the tapping either disappears or is drowned out by the revving. Converting the vid now. Any suggestions for a host?

[EuroDude]

Photobucket can host videos, dunno if its free or not~
http://www.photobucket.com/

[Matell]

I believe those who've suggested the injectors are dead right.

A remote reason for my assumption of this is back when I was playing AJ and we had the gloriously laid back job of water purification the metering pumps which in essence aren't much different to fuel injectors and deliver precise dose's of various premixed chemicals made this same 'clicking noise'.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. How do the injectors fire a controlled amount of fuel?

All they are are electronically controlled valves. An electronic pulse sent from the ECU energizes an electromagnet which moves a plunger that opens the valve allowing the pressurised fuel to escape and become atomised via the nozzle profile. The longer the pulse, the longer the vale remains open and the more fuel is released.

The reason it's so audible when at idle is only a small amount of fuel needs to be injected, therefore the electronic pulse from the ECU is immensely quick, meaning the electromagnet is only charged for a fraction of a second, causing the plunger to snap open and return closed via spring pressure resulting in the plunger smacking against the closing face within the injector. The impact produces the 'tick'. I think that’s a simple, yet thorough enough explanation.

One could further validate this crudely by noting that when doing a compression test there is no ticking. The tappets are in motion during this test, although I will concede not at the same velocity as when at idle.

You could also find out if you get a CEL by intentionally disconnecting one of the injector cables when at idle and obviously note the change in ticking. Do that at your own risk!:D

[aaronng]

^^ Great info. But why does the sound vary in loudness when the injectors used in all the Euros are the same model?

[EuroDude]

Because its the tappets making the louder noise.
Its confusing because the tappets sound similar to the injectors.

Well thats my theory at least :D

[aaronng]

Try this link. See if you can dl it. The video is in xvid (avi)

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8AAD16272C74EEF9

[Matell]

^^ Great info. But why does the sound vary in loudness when the injectors used in all the Euros are the same model?
Fuel air mixture, quality of fuel, age of injector, idle tune setting.

A difference in both fuel quality, and the fuel air ratio, how you've just been driving the car etc will cause the ECU to seek out a more appropriate point on the fuel map. The only way this is translated through to the injector is slight variations in the amplitude, frequency, and wavelength of the pulse. This will inturn correspond in a variation of the electromagnetic charge, which translates into a difference in the velocity of the plunger, and hence the energy of the impact. More energy=more noise, less energy = less noise.

You should be able to figure all that out, you're an intelligent enough guy, and no that's not being condescending

[Matell]

Try this link. See if you can dl it. The video is in xvid (avi)

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8AAD16272C74EEF9

That works, and it's no different to mine. I had an injector service done at the 80,000km and it hasn't changed.

You can also verify it by taking off the injector cover and placing your hand on an injector. You can feel a pulse, that when you concentrate enough coincides with a ticking noise.

[EuroDude]

Played the video and it sounds similar to mine except I think the tappets sound louder and more busy.

Was that when the engine was cold?

[aaronng]

Fuel air mixture, quality of fuel, age of injector, idle tune setting.

A difference in both fuel quality, and the fuel air ratio, how you've just been driving the car etc will cause the ECU to seek out a more appropriate point on the fuel map. The only way this is translated through to the injector is slight variations in the amplitude, frequency, and wavelength of the pulse. This will inturn correspond in a variation of the electromagnetic charge, which translates into a difference in the velocity of the plunger, and hence the energy of the impact. More energy=more noise, less energy = less noise.

You should be able to figure all that out, you're an intelligent enough guy, and no that's not being condescending
:) Was wondering, because Euros both older and newer than mine are quieter... I've tried resetting the ECU and do the idle learn procedure, but it does nothing to change the injector noise.

BRB. getting food.

And yes, the engine was slightly cool. About 55C on coolant temp.

[Matell]

:) Was wondering, because Euros both older and newer than mine are quieter... I've tried resetting the ECU and do the idle learn procedure, but it does nothing to change the injector noise.

BRB. getting food.

And yes, the engine was slightly cool. About 55C on coolant temp.

I notice it with the engine both hot and cold, and it was still there after the adjustment at 40,000km.

If you want to try to feel the pulses so you can settle it in your own mind, you may find that the pulse of one is carried to the other via the fuel rail. In that case if you have a stethoscope (or improvise one) you should be able to isolate the noise from one specific injector.

[aaronng]

I notice it with the engine both hot and cold, and it was still there after the adjustment at 40,000km.

If you want to try to feel the pulses so you can settle it in your own mind, you may find that the pulse of one is carried to the other via the fuel rail. In that case if you have a stethoscope (or improvise one) you should be able to isolate the noise from one specific injector.
Yup, I've been told to do the screwdriver stethoscope trick to hear it. Well, it's just shocking as a 12 year old f22a CD accord is more silent than my car, and that one has missed its valve adjustment twice already.

[Chris_F]

I have a strong fealing matell is right about this. But I'm just like you aaronng when i hear slightly louder than usual or strange noises, always try to get to teh bottom of why... hopefully the info being shared in this thread will help us get to the bottom of it.

[TypeG]

that's LOUD
but when I first get the car, it is just so quite without any tick tick tick noise from the engine. But after I bring my car to track, noise start to come out. Well it is far not as loud but it will be after few more track days i think =)

[Cranial]

I had a listen to the clip, and mine is almost as loud! I've got 38k on the clock, and I will do a valve clearance adjustment when I do my 40k service (if it helps). I've never tracked it, and nor do I redline it (well, very rarely anyway) But I thought it was only my car making such a loud noise - so I'm not alone! hehe ;)

[Chris_F]

I'll compare the sound of my car today and see how much louder or quieter it is. I have a similar noise i think.

[Tobster]

That's a lot of clatter! It sounds like a diesel!

I know I still don't have a lot of km on mine, but it doesn't sound ANYTHING like that...

[petsfact]

doesn't sound good dude..... it's like 3 times louder than the tappet noise caused by mobil 1 on my car.

[aaronng]

doesn't sound good dude..... it's like 3 times louder than the tappet noise caused by mobil 1 on my car.
What year is your car? The sound is coming from the injector area.... not the valve cover though.

[Chris_F]

i heard a similar ticking noise on my car today too... not sure if it was louder than usual though. So we're still unsure whats causing it?

[yfin]

If the tappet noise goes away once the car is warmed up I personally wouldn't worry about. Aarong what is your oil level at?

[petsfact]

my car is early 2004, it only have tappet noise after putting in mobil 1 10w-30 but i swear the car feels so much better before it's service which had feo in it.

and yeh, it goes away after 15 minutes highway cruising so i am not too worrying about it.

[aaronng]

If the tappet noise goes away once the car is warmed up I personally wouldn't worry about. Aarong what is your oil level at?
My noise is on all the time. Cold or warm. Oil level is normal. When checking when cold, the level is at the maximum dot. When warm and letting the oil drain down for 3 minutes, it's about 1mm below maximum.

[aaronng]

my car is early 2004, it only have tappet noise after putting in mobil 1 10w-30 but i swear the car feels so much better before it's service which had feo in it.

and yeh, it goes away after 15 minutes highway cruising so i am not too worrying about it.
My car is August 2004... It's running Castrol Formula R 5w-30 at the moment, but the noise has always been there, since 10000km I reckon. And I only hear it when at idle. When revving/driving/cruising, I don't hear it.

[Omotesando]

If you step on the accelerator on a wet surface and the Traction Control comes on - do u think u can hear a similar noise?

Just wondering if that noise is injector noise or/and brake pulsation noise (but doesn't exactly sound like ABS).

[TypeG]

actually can u guys hear the noise inside yr car ?
or when u stay next to the bonnet or after the bonnet is opened?

[aaronng]

If you step on the accelerator on a wet surface and the Traction Control comes on - do u think u can hear a similar noise?

Just wondering if that noise is injector noise or/and brake pulsation noise (but doesn't exactly sound like ABS).
Hehe, nope, because the noise is only at idle. Plus, then I took the video, the car was not moving.

[aaronng]

actually can u guys hear the noise inside yr car ?
or when u stay next to the bonnet or after the bonnet is opened?
Only when next to the bonnet (slightly). But it is most clear when you have the bonnet open (of course). You can't hear it from the inside.

[civiceg9]

that sound clip is loud, sounds like a diesel engine :eek:
sounds worst then my 14yr old civic.

TypeG car sounds so much louder after he went to the tracks,
I the valve spring is not design for high revs but more civilise use.

[Omotesando]

Hehe, nope, because the noise is only at idle. Plus, then I took the video, the car was not moving.

The reason why I ask is because, if your Traction Control kicks in when you put the foot down in the wet, essentially the injectors are being closed then pulsed again and power is shut down to near idle momentarily.

As such if you have the injector noise this woud manifest itself. But then again the brake caliper/calipers might work also on the wheels as well depending on wheel-speed sensor and steering-angle sensor readout.

[petsfact]

i hear mine too when standing next to boonet, but it's real loud when cold start in the morning.... after that it's all good.

[aaronng]

Just went out for a bit, came back and popped the bonnet. Engine was totally warm already. And the noise is the same. No change in volume of the tapping.

[civiceg9]

Just went out for a bit, came back and popped the bonnet. Engine was totally warm already. And the noise is the same. No change in volume of the tapping.

Sounds like Need tapper adjustment
and try to use a high grade oil for more protection like 10w-40
Some Honda Dealers do offer it as a Premium Grade oil
(10w-40 oil is used for there more expensive Hondas in Japan, all there s2000, NSX, Legend etc all use it)

[aaronng]

My oil has been fully synthetic for the past 2 services. I was on 0w-40 and then 5w-30. I'll go back to 0w-40 at the next service (which is also the one for valve clearance adjustment).

[yfin]

So is your warranty due to expire in August? Let us know how you go with the dealer.

[petsfact]

My oil has been fully synthetic for the past 2 services. I was on 0w-40 and then 5w-30. I'll go back to 0w-40 at the next service (which is also the one for valve clearance adjustment).


this is also one of the reason why i asked about engine oil so many times with you last time :) i just can't decide which one to go but stick with factory grade. according to my highschool " F " grade physic theory thicker oil simply eat more metal :P and when thinner oil is put back in more space between walls thus more vibration.


i got an F so don't bother thinking about my quote. :)

[aaronng]

So is your warranty due to expire in August? Let us know how you go with the dealer.
I still have 1 year plus left of my warranty. :)

[aaronng]

this is also one of the reason why i asked about engine oil so many times with you last time :) i just can't decide which one to go but stick with factory grade. according to my highschool " F " grade physic theory thicker oil simply eat more metal :P and when thinner oil is put back in more space between walls thus more vibration.


i got an F so don't bother thinking about my quote. :)
Nah, I doubt it is metal wear. I think it is either the injector or the tappets. The only thing abnormal is that I got the tappet noise so early in my car's life. But then... I did have a play with my car. :)

[EuroDude]

Maybe the factory had mis-adjusted the tappets. They manufacturer what 500+ euros/TSX's a day? there are bound to be quite a few with dodged tappet clearances...

[aaronng]

I remember, my engine was loud for a long while now, when I had about 10,000km, as I had the "noisy vibrating engine" tag in my signature since about that time almost a year ago.

[EuroDude]

How often do you vtec/redline?

[aaronng]

Before this, once a day. I drive normally and get 10.5L/100km in pure city driving in the eastern suburbs. When there are meets where I get to drive on roads such as Parra rd, my fuel consumption decreases to 9.5L/100km, so my car sees little full throttle.

[EuroDude]

hms once a day is nothing really. Either way, we'll see how the tappet adjustment goes at the next service.

Maybe you could ask them to write down the looseness of the clearances on a notepad before they adjust them.

I really cant see how the injectors would cause such a noise.

[aaronng]

Yup, I'm going to ask them to report any adjustments that were required with the valve clearances (40,000km service is only a valve clearance check. Adjustment is only done if needed).

[aaronng]

Just watched a vid of someone's TSX in the US. His engine tappet noise is as loud as mine!

[TypeG]

just had my 5000km service. They claimed that the noise is fuel injectors pulsing as well.
I wonder how true it is.

[badthing]

You guys might be interested to know that my engine tappet noise is also quite loud. Probably as loud as the one in the vid. Yet my car has only done 2000km.

[TypeG]

well
seems like this is how Euro is

[bernie180]

When I bought my Euro, it had the same tappet noise. The service history indicated that a Synthetic Valvoline 10-30 oil was used. I changed it a week later with my favourite oil BP Visco 5000 5W-40. And the tappet noise dissappeared. Worked for me so give it a go...

[Omotesando]

So is it tappet or injector noise, guys? lol. Make up your minds... :)