sway bars = oversteer ??

[bigjo5]

on my friends eg he has front ITR sway , rear tie bar, and a front strut brace and seems like when u hook corners really fast it tends to oversteer is that normal? soon to install the rear ITR sway ...

[Zdster]

I would say yes. It also depends on size of all of the bars being put on.

[bigjo5]

ooh i see.. thanks man..

[saxman]

no

increasing the size of the front sway bar will only increase understeer.

increasing the size of the rear sway bar is what adds oversteer/removes understeer.

[timofytit]

soften the rear springs if it bothers you.

[Zdster]

no

increasing the size of the front sway bar will only increase understeer.

increasing the size of the rear sway bar is what adds oversteer/removes understeer.

Wouldnt the front strut bar cancel out the effect of the front and rear tie bar add oversteer? I was under the impression that the tie bar can also add oversteer?

[Paul1985]

no

increasing the size of the front sway bar will only increase understeer.

increasing the size of the rear sway bar is what adds oversteer/removes understeer.
I agree.

You sure your not getting alot of understeer, not oversteer?

[saxman]

Wouldnt the front strut bar cancel out the effect of the front and rear tie bar add oversteer? I was under the impression that the tie bar can also add oversteer?
strut/tie bars are really just chasis reinforcements... they really don't do a whole lot to the overall handling of the car, except remove some body flex

[Paul1985]

Wouldnt the front strut bar cancel out the effect of the front and rear tie bar add oversteer? I was under the impression that the tie bar can also add oversteer?
IMO strut bars dont do alot for your handling. Good for reducing chassis flex IMO but not much else.

[Paul1985]

throw a rear sway bar on there and you will have significant results.
It really is amazing the difference a rear sway bar makes on an EG

[Zdster]

Fair enough guys. Thanks for clarifying :thumbsup:. Plus PQ points for both of you :).

[saxman]

throw a rear sway bar on there and you will have significant results.
It really is amazing the difference a rear sway bar makes on an EG
I definetely agree... putting a rear sway on my sol(EH6, but basically an EG, but different engine) made about as much difference to handling as my springs/adjustable shocks.

Adding the front strut bar made absolutely no noticable difference. A rear upper strut bar actually made the car handle worse, as shown by a significant reduction of my time around an autox track(tried several times with and without it, and ran about 5% slower with it on).

[bigjo5]

I definetely agree... putting a rear sway on my sol(EH6, but basically an EG, but different engine) made about as much difference to handling as my springs/adjustable shocks.

Adding the front strut bar made absolutely no noticable difference. A rear upper strut bar actually made the car handle worse, as shown by a significant reduction of my time around an autox track(tried several times with and without it, and ran about 5% slower with it on).

serz about the front strut.. cause first my friend had front sway + rear tie bar and teh crossmemeber bar or what ever.. and ther wanst much over steer.. then the next day installed the front strut brace and thats when i noticed overstear.. no underssteer definately.

[xtercii]

why does a rear strut bar make a car handle worse? if so why do people still make them and put them in?

[bennjamin]

why does a rear strut bar make a car handle worse? if so why do people still make them and put them in?

From my experience - it stiffens up the chassis of the car , hence putting more turning force into the tyres ~ (for the front) which in turn made the car understeer/loose front traction much more noticeably. Rear is the same theory.
IMO the more bars/braces you install , the better tyres you need to compensate for that more strain onto them :)

[saxman]

serz about the front strut.. cause first my friend had front sway + rear tie bar and teh crossmemeber bar or what ever.. and ther wanst much over steer.. then the next day installed the front strut brace and thats when i noticed overstear.. no underssteer definately.
only way that that could have happened is if the front sway bar got disconnected in the process or something like that. Adding a front strut bar would in now way suddenly cause oversteer...


xterci... it made the car feel a bit too jumpy in the rear. Just didn't feel good. Could have just been me, and could have been that I was using it without a tie bar, etc.

As for why they sell, keep in mind that most people don't buy quality parts, or really have any idea what a lot of the parts do. Most(obviously not all), buy parts like that because they think they do something, they like the look of having something there, or just buy it because someone told them to/they read somewhere they should have it/they saw 'em on brian spilner's car in the fast in the furious.

[EK9_boi]

Rear sway bars reduces body roll and understeer and can induce lift off oversteer if you are not committed to the throttle when cornering (or if you are just taking a fully hamfisted line).

The rear sway bar is supposed to enable you to attack the corner at greater speeds than without it, by resisting the weight transfer of your car to the outside of the corner. This effectively prevents the inside rear wheel from lifting mid-corner which would otherwise significantly reduce the amount of traction afforded by the inside tire! :) In short, it keeps the rear flat throughout the corner as you turn.

However, liftoff oversteer occurs when you shift the weight of the car to the front either by braking or easing off the throttle mid-corner, and thus effectively reducing rear traction. This often results in the kind of oversteer that you need to be quick to recognise and correct for through countersteering or deliberately inducing understeer through the throttle to settle the car.

Now don't go too hard in the corner after what is said above! :p

cheers

[timofytit]

only way that that could have happened is if the front sway bar got disconnected in the process or something like that. Adding a front strut bar would in now way suddenly cause oversteer...


xterci... it made the car feel a bit too jumpy in the rear. Just didn't feel good. Could have just been me, and could have been that I was using it without a tie bar, etc.

As for why they sell, keep in mind that most people don't buy quality parts, or really have any idea what a lot of the parts do. Most(obviously not all), buy parts like that because they think they do something, they like the look of having something there, or just buy it because someone told them to/they read somewhere they should have it/they saw 'em on brian spilner's car in the fast in the furious.

Maybe the rear tires have gone off. It happens

[CUL8R]

does ur friend have aftermarket sussy?
i knew a guy who got new konis and thought putting them on full stiff was a good idea for a cruise on the twisties, needless to say, not enough skill and too much ego, he ended up going backwards into a ditch.
spring damper combinations will also upset some cars ballance.

[SiR JDM]

I think it largely depends on each individual style of driving, where and how much reinforcement is required.

Even tho we are focusing on FF cars (namely civics) there are still various methods of driving, each requiring (or welcoming) slightly different additional reinforcements. Eg. Late braking and very hard cornering vs a more controlled approch to a corner with smoother lines. Each will have different gravitational affects on the car and its interia.

Not only in addition to that, it depends greatly on MANY other things how your car will react in a certain situation. a few more to throw into the mix of variability:
your TYRES!!!!!! do not expect any major results if your running on shit rubber
your suspension setup
performance modifications - responce > where, when, duration and extent to which it makes its power

the point of this post wasn't to confuse people (i hope i havn't) but to show that there is no formula for modifcation. A sway bar will not give you handling +2 etc. Its part of a whole setup. Ive seen people chock their car full of reinforcement in the ideal that it will give them the best handling. Im talking front and rear struts (in some cases 2 front struts), front and rear tie bars, C pillar bars etc etc i can go on. Your car needs SOME flex and body roll... minimizing it is a good idea, eliminating it (if possible) is not.


If its for bling value, deck your car out in any and all reinforcement you can get!

If its for track, i highly recommend you research before you buy.
Find out what combinations will work for you and your driving style, and for your car.
A friend of mine removed his aftermarket rear sway bar and returned it to stock and actually increased his lap times a Phillip Island here in vic.

my 2c.

[Limbo]

The front strut allows the front to stiffen up. This allows the front to put power down to the ground and thus you can swing the rear as it has been stiffen with the rear bar.

Generally if you only add one of each item yes it will create the single effect.
I.e front strut causing understeer, Rear bars causing oversteer. When adding a combo you will get a different affect. I'll try and explain...

Now the chassis braces allow the body to stiffen up. Rem that the rear swaybar also stiffens up your rear, thus it adds to your rear. It is recommend that you get a rear brace to support the stiffer rear sway otherwise you might rip the rear chassis.

Now think of a stiff object if you swing it then the rear will swing. With a less stiff object you get flex which make the object swing less and less sharply.
Just look at the efftec of a piece of cain and a piece of metal rod. I think you will understand what i mean.

I've done the bars taken them off and tired different strength bars just to see how the car feels.

If the car is too stiff you just end up spining out. But you can drive more sharply. If your too soft the body will flex too much causing your turns to be sloppy.

As above it does depend on your style of driving, if you drift, or grip drive. Best way is to add all then adjust each one. A rear adjustable swaybar helps alot.

[z3lda]

Did someone say OVER STEEERRR ? ? ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/b16crxkid/Friends%20rides/95333007_0b551e345d_o.gif

[Mr_will]

on my friends eg he has front ITR sway , rear tie bar, and a front strut brace and seems like when u hook corners really fast it tends to oversteer is that normal? soon to install the rear ITR sway ...


this also depends on what you mean by 'hook'.

if you mean you are getting oversteer when on throttle, this is very strange and maybe you have shitty/bald rear tyres, or the biggest rear sway known to man.

if however the oversteer you are describing is coming when you lift off throttle, then this is normal. my LS with stock suspension will oversteer when i lift off.

your friend needs to rethink his priorities .the first place you should be looking is the rear. you dont need a front strut or tie bar as much as you need rear ones, unless understeer is what you want.

you always want the back to be stiffer

[saxman]

It is recommend that you get a rear brace to support the stiffer rear sway otherwise you might rip the rear chassis.
a rear tie bar isn't really going to prevent against the rear subframe ripping. This is more of an issue with how the rear sway mounts to the subframe.
With some solutions, a tie bar is integrated(comptech, beaks, etc), with some, it is not(progress auto, etc).

[Mr_will]

Did someone say OVER STEEERRR ? ? ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/b16crxkid/Friends%20rides/95333007_0b551e345d_o.gif

bahahaaha that is gold

[DOHCVTEC]

Sorry didn't read everything but maybe a minor upgrade of the Front swaybars can cause the feeling of oversteering especially under power situations i reckon... (doesn't mean it'd be faster)
this might be because installing a thicker sway on the front will make the outside have more weight "RELATIVELY" then the inside wheel... and then when you apply a little bit of power, it seems like the car might pull you in?
but when u apply a bit more, the inner wheel fully goes spinning like crazy...
installing a thicker rear swaybar puts more weight to the front tyres esp. inner front me reckons...

[aaronng]

Front and rear sway bars provide more resistance to the car rolling left and right. As a result, the weight shift that changes the geometry of the tyre is altered. With a thin sway, the car rolls more, so the weight on the outer tyre is higher. When you use a thicker sway, the car rolls less, so there is more weight supported by the inner tyre. But because the car rolls less now and the tyres do not deflect that much to match the force against the road, there will be a limit after which you will see an increase in sliding.

So an initial mod, where you change the rear sway bar to the thicker one gives your car more grip overall because of the increased weight on the inner tyres when cornering. But once you go too thick, the tyres tend to slide more easily instead, hence the feeling of a floaty rear.

The above was for just cornering situations without full power. Just when maintaining the throttle. When you accelerate hard in corners, the same above applies as well where the tyres sit flatter and you have more weight on the inner wheel as well, so it tends to maintain grip (stock with an open diff will spin the inner wheel because all the weight is on the outer wheel from body roll). But as usual, too thick a front sway will cause the car to front to slide when you exceed the tyre grip when applying too much power in the corner and the tyres are not deflecting enough to regain their grip on the road.