VTiR B18C vs. Type R B18C.

[Terrible One]

If I were to transplant either of these engines into another car, is there any point of choosing the Type R engine over the VTiR if I'm going to change the intake, headers + full exhaust, computer, lightened flywheel (and new clutch), underdrive pulley and other small bolt ons?

Will a similarly modded VTiR motor make similar power to a type r?

Down the track it'll probably get more work like head and cams, cam gears, 4.9 final drive etc if it matters.

And probably a little off topic for this section, what would a mild B18c in a stripped out 89 Civic hatch run down the quarter with a competent driver?

[Q_ball]

Have a read through this thread,
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18699

This will outline majority of the differences to do with the VtiR and the Type R.

Putting it simply, the Type R block will always be a better base for mods than the VtiR - as it has more power already.

Also, as this is with regards to an engine conversion and not so much an Integra in stock/modded form, moving to the technical section.

edit: With regards to a mildly modded b18c being put into a stripped 89 Civic, with a competant driver, high 13s is my estimate.

[barefootbonzai]

I asked the same question a while back. Have a search it's been covered quite a number of times. Just really just depends how far you're gonna go.

[Spunkymonkey]

For the time and money you spend trying to get a b18c2 (VTIR) as quick as a type R...start off with the Type R seriously....

and as Qball mentioned looking at 13s, maybe can get down into 12s if you really strip it!!! ALLMTR used to have a AH civic stripped out that did 12s.

[z3lda]

the price u pay for a vti-r is half of what u pay for a type R.

u can easily pick up a vti-r engine for around 2k. where as a type R is 5k

huge difference in price.

down the track you decide to change the internals it'd be a waste to do it on the type R as everything is gettin replaced anyways. doesnt have the typeR characteristics no more. either way in the end you'll have a fully built 1.8ltr engine.

[EGB16A]

Putting it simply, the Type R block will always be a better base for mods than the VtiR - as it has more power already.


disagree with the type R "block" having more power. Its the combination of the type R motor that makes more power, inclusive of IM/ TB/ headers. I see no reason why a VTIR engine wouldn't be the better option for a swap, simply due to its lower initial cost. Terrible one obviously has a build plan, and looks like he is going to change most things to after market parts anyway.

thats my 2c

[barefootbonzai]

agreed agreed ^ just depends how far he wants to go.

[.::F[L]Y::.]

or even better yet, do a b20 vtec engine. best bang for buck imo.

[VTi_b0i]

^^^ not very reliable tho...needs alota cash put into the b20 block for it to withstand a good thrashing...

[aaronng]

Want to know what a Type R engine has over the VTiR (USDM GSR)? Read this: http://www.superhonda.com/tech/DC2Type-R_comparison.html

[[[d a n n y]]]

^^^ not very reliable tho...needs alota cash put into the b20 block for it to withstand a good thrashing...

time will telll
it seems like they are pretty reliable atm

[z3lda]

Want to know what a Type R engine has over the VTiR (USDM GSR)? Read this: http://www.superhonda.com/tech/DC2Type-R_comparison.html

doesnt matter what a type R has over a vti-r when in the end the guy will be swaping

- intake manifold
- exhaust system
- full internals

[.::F[L]Y::.]

besides engine wise the difference between the type R and vtir is the gearbox. type R box runs a final drive of 4.7xxx whilst vtir runs a 4.44 final drive i think. also the closer gear ratio helps it rev out quicker...

[xtercii]

the price u pay for a vti-r is half of what u pay for a type R.

u can easily pick up a vti-r engine for around 2k. where as a type R is 5k

huge difference in price.

down the track you decide to change the internals it'd be a waste to do it on the type R as everything is gettin replaced anyways. doesnt have the typeR characteristics no more. either way in the end you'll have a fully built 1.8ltr engine.

You cannot be serious buddy, b18c engines are getting so rare that they are even harder to find than an ITR engine, and they certainly cost more than 2G, realistically you are looking at 3.5G that’s if you can find one.

[[stealth]]

Type R All the way... its simple

[VTi_b0i]

You cannot be serious buddy, b18c engines are getting so rare that they are even harder to find than an ITR engine, and they certainly cost more than 2G, realistically you are looking at 3.5G that’s if you can find one.
yehh agreed... i looked for 4-5months b4 i found a good one... and they go for an average price of 3500 depending on condition etc...

[Terrible One]

Thanks for all the input.

I'd probably rather spend 3k more and get an ITR front cut rather than buy a VTiR one and spend what the motor is worth to try and match the power of a ITR motor. Plus I'd get the LSD and better diff ratio.

I've been reading on this website for about a year or so (only signed up recently) and from everything I've heard a B20 isn't a good option for a number of reasons. First being reliability and second being cost. Labour costs etc isn't a problem as I'm a mechanic. Car will be used for QR sprints, all motor drag and anything else I can get the car to do.

Just doing my research before I delve into another project. Just finishing my current one but nobody here would be interested...a twin turbo EFI 202 in a LJ Torana. :p

[fatboyz39]

^^^ not very reliable tho...needs alota cash put into the b20 block for it to withstand a good thrashing...

i know of a few ppl who has done this conversion and so far so good.

There not reliable if there not built properly.

But as for vti-r or type R engine, i would definately go for the Type R engine. One of the best honda motors out there.

I would have to say that the b18c are nuggets compared Type R motor.

The amount of money put in a b18c can't compare to the type R, superior engines.

If your choosing b18c why not get b16a?

[BlitZ]

depends on your aim too...

i reckon if your daring enough to push for power then i would proabably get the B18c2 vtir... for 3k.. i would think you would produce more power than an ITR...
my mates b18c2 with skunk 2 manifold and tapered and bored tb, and ecu... produced somthing like 115kw atw on the mt druitt dyno
(reliable low figures), which would be fairly close to an ITR already.. add another 2k for b spec cams (drop st8 in - no porting n polish) for valve train then it easily create more power than an ITR..


and the b20... i reckon they are reliable as, as long as you dont reaise the compression... it has been proven again and again they can be revved to 8k all day without issues as long as std compression is maintained.. weakest link is rod and head bolts.. make sure u change them too...

IF your a mechanic and can get yourself a b16/18 head .. the build should cost under 2k

[taman]

i know of a few ppl who has done this conversion and so far so good.

There not reliable if there not built properly.

But as for vti-r or type R engine, i would definately go for the Type R engine. One of the best honda motors out there.

I would have to say that the b18c are nuggets compared Type R motor.

The amount of money put in a b18c can't compare to the type R, superior engines.

If your choosing b18c why not get b16a?


because maybe the b18c will make more torque :confused: :confused: :confused:

and yeah, if you're gona end up replacing everything just get a vtir motor. cause the extra money u'd be paying for the type R goodies will be changed anyway... but then theres the LSD and tranny :zip:

i've also heard that the vtir head is more efficient in the higher rpm's (8k+) due to its 'down draft' design... i dont really understand it fully, anyone care to shed some light?

[dc2rrrr]

Scotty (atmoek) and I both just had full toda rebuilds. Scotty has a b18vtir ek civic and i have a dc2 type r. We have both gone toda pistons eagle rods Shaved head toda c2 cams springs retainers all all other externals. And will be making the same power. Scottys may even make a little more up top as apparently vtir heads flow better up top. I would definatly go the vtir if your doing internals. Look at ericks racing in the states, they all run vtir motors.
Good luck with whichever route you take

[dc2rrrr]

ps gear box ratios and final drives will make a huge difference too

opt for the type r box if possible as it runs a 4.7 final drive

[VTi_b0i]

good point... so if doing internals and going all out they will be the same minus the box?

and LMFAO at your avatar@! BAHAHA

[barefootbonzai]

Scotty (atmoek) and I both just had full toda rebuilds. Scotty has a b18vtir ek civic and i have a dc2 type r. We have both gone toda pistons eagle rods Shaved head toda c2 cams springs retainers all all other externals. And will be making the same power. Scottys may even make a little more up top as apparently vtir heads flow better up top. I would definatly go the vtir if your doing internals. Look at ericks racing in the states, they all run vtir motors.
Good luck with whichever route you take

Good to hear someone who's been there :thumbsup:

[dc2rrrr]

and LMFAO at your avatar@! BAHAHA

Yeah he is a naughty little bugger..... :)

[BlitZ]

out of curiosity... would you care to share your power output of the toda motor? :thumbsup:

up to your discretion that is

[VTi_b0i]

lol thats funny as! :p +10rep points! hahahah
if u dont mind me asking, how much was it for the full toda rebuild, was it the same for both of you? and what power are you's making?

[xtercii]

So vtir’s head is actually better than ITR’s head in someway?

[Felix]

doesnt matter what a type R has over a vti-r when in the end the guy will be swaping

- intake manifold
- exhaust system
- full internals

Exactly

[RMN15N]

the boys are right.. whats the point of forking out 5 k for a type R motor if ur gonna change the internals n IM/TB etc in the end the only thing type r is the RED rocket cover

get the Vti-r motor then buy a type R rocket cover haha..

[Jon_51]

rocket cover, lol

[VTi_b0i]

yeah cause its a rocket :p

[dc2rrrr]

My current mods list

Toda 421 headers
Vision decat for track
Fujitsubu power getter exhaust side exit to be for track
Cusco zero1 coilovers
whiteline 24mm sway bars
lucas 660 pads f & r
trust super 4 dot break fluid
toyo r888 tyres for track on stock rims
Apexi power fc and h-c
Stripped interior
Recaro one piece driver seat
Sabelt harness 4p
gruppe M catch can
Sard fuel reg
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Split fire leads
Mugen formula 1 valve cover
Spoon cam gears
Sump baffle
Mugen Thermostat
Spoon fan switch
Oil cooler
Buddy club oil temp digimeter
Cold air intake front duct in front bar to custom air box with trust filter
Ericks racing 68mm throttle body ( Soon to have carbon big ass intake manifold)
Front and rear strut bars
j's racing c pillar bar
Toda single race clutch & fly
Mugen gen 2 rear wing

Currently 127kw at wheels
1.14.78 at wakefield (lame time)



8-7-06

Toda oversized pistons 12.8 : 1 plus shaved so prob over 13:1 comp
Eagle rods
Toda oil pump
Toda timing belt
Skyline GTR 440cc injectors
Toda C2 cams
Toda double valve springs
Toda retainers
New valve guides
Vision mirrors
Du luck floor bar
S2000 antenna
All new mounts stickaflexed
15OKW ATW

[tinkerbell]

so you wnet from:



Toda 4-2-1 headers
Fujitsubu power getter exhaust
Apexi power fc and h-c
Sard fuel reg
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Spoon cam gears
Cold air intake
custom air box with trust filter
Ericks racing 68mm throttle body (

127kw at wheels



and added:





Toda high comp. oversized pistons
shaved head
Eagle rods
Skyline GTR 440cc injectors
Toda C2 cams
Toda double valve springs
Toda retainers

with
15OKW ATW

so +23kW from cams and pistons + tune?

u must be pretty happy with that! :cool:

are teh cam gears dyno tuned or stock? (unlikely, but just to clarify)

[Da1nONLY]

hmmmmz 150 atw????
thats quiet hard to achieve in N/A form for a B18C.....
pretty amazing...
don't know if its even possible...

[VTi_b0i]

NICE!
wat a machineeeee lol lets see some pics :p

[tinkerbell]

don't know if its even possible...

that is the funny thing about something being "not possible" in your mind - you never actually know what is possible, simply because you never really know everything there is to know do you?

[barefootbonzai]

Pretty crazy mods. We went to Adrian with a b20 frank with similar mods, C spec with oversized 85mm pistons so well over 2L and but we failed to reach the 150kw mark :( 145kw though so close yet so far away.

[tinkerbell]

NICE!
wat a machineeeee lol lets see some pics :p

i doubt dc2rrr will mind ;)

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/cc_20060425_410.jpg

w00t!!!

[VTi_b0i]

Thanks tinkerbell :)
o0o0h JDM ay? so hawt!!! :P one nice ride lad!
actually, what are the plates on that? im sure ive seen it b4!!!

[xtercii]

care to tell us the rev limit for this machine??

[Da1nONLY]

that is the funny thing about something being "not possible" in your mind - you never actually know what is possible, simply because you never really know everything there is to know do you?

hehe blardi tinkerbell...
so picky with words!
maybe i should rephrase it to.... "I have yet to see a N/A B18c producing 150Kw+ or more atw?" =P


but hey.... who knows....
anything is possible

[tinkerbell]

(BTW - i have also yet to see a B18CR make over 150kW in an Australian street car, but it is possible...)

[tinkerbell]

for example:

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=69034

plus plenty of food for thought here:

http://www.importreview.com/d_1.8.html

keep in mind 150kW = abt 220 whp in the usa...

[yourfather]

what about if you just low-fi whacked a B16A head on a VTi-R and tuned it?

[Terrible One]

Interesting stuff here.

Looks like a VTiR cut is the way to go then. How much can a good Type R box be had for? Shouldn't cost alot if I pension off the VTiR one.

What's involved in a B20B setup? Any links to other sites or threads in this forum would be great.

[ewendc2r]

Toda is doing a deal on New Type R boxes right now mate - Go to the suppliers section.

Interesting that people say the VTi-R head flows better than Type R considering they are the same head I thought (Different intake manifold with dual runner I think for the VTi-R) and that the Type R was simply a mildy ported and polished version of the VTi-R ... Thoughts? Any flow bench data?

I would love to see the dyno graph (want to look at the curve) for that toda motor .. Is it a violent 6000rpm+ line? And what is the limiter set at?

Edit: My bad -- Back on Topic :)

[Q_ball]

Try and keep this thread as close to topic as possible guys, VtiR vs Type R motors :)

edit: If you do have any other questions, start another thread in the appropriate forum.

[tinkerbell]

DC2R head = B16A head with factory polish job

VTiR head is unique to VTiR and is not used on any other car. the port angles are different which can help at over 8000rpm (so the experts say)

Terrible One:

B20B with VTEC Head:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16816
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38805

[tinkerbell]

Try and keep this thread as close to topic as possible guys, VtiR vs Type R motors :)

edit: If you do have any other questions, start another thread in the appropriate forum.

:wave: this is the appropriate forum?

[Q_ball]

:wave: this is the appropriate forum?

I was referring to this question asked by the thread starter:


Interesting stuff here.

Looks like a VTiR cut is the way to go then. How much can a good Type R box be had for? Shouldn't cost alot if I pension off the VTiR one.

What's involved in a B20B setup? Any links to other sites or threads in this forum would be great.

[spoondc2]

Toda is doing a deal on New Type R boxes right now mate - Go to the suppliers section.

Interesting that people say the VTi-R head flows better than Type R considering they are the same head I thought (Different intake manifold with dual runner I think for the VTi-R) and that the Type R was simply a mildy ported and polished version of the VTi-R ... Thoughts? Any flow bench data?

I would love to see the dyno graph (want to look at the curve) for that toda motor .. Is it a violent 6000rpm+ line? And what is the limiter set at?

Edit: My bad -- Back on Topic :)

they are the same head ???

[tofu R]

They are NOT the same head.. a Type R head ala pr3 head is the same in casting to a b16a head..
although the peripherals such as camshafts, valve springs, and the head being slightly polished (NOT PORTED ONLY POLISHED)

the p72 is the vtir head.. yes it has a different dual butterfly intake manifold, but the casting is totally different..

the arguments for what head is better goes on and on and on
but worked side by side a p72 can definitely be as good as a pr3 .. no questions asked..

and can be argued to have better high end flow because of the more "direct" airflow for hi rpm ..

[string]

The VTi-R also has the smallest combustion chamber volume out of the three; Depending on your application that may or may not be a good thing.

[jimmeh]

They are NOT the same head.. a Type R head ala pr3 head is the same in casting to a b16a head..
although the peripherals such as camshafts, valve springs, and the head being slightly polished (NOT PORTED ONLY POLISHED)


i think most of the guys refer to the casting when they say the B16a head is the same as the B18C7

[misterpoh]

B16A + Forced Induction ! Will surprise alot of cars out there.

[dc2rrrr]

Sorry guys havent been on this thread for yonks. Yes very happy with my car. Just finished making a new intake last night, is now loud as a stampede of elephants. Still have new throttle body and intake manifold to fit and tune :D :D :D :D :D :D

But need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$:( :( :( :(

[VTECACCORD]

Dump 10 grand into any car and youll surprise a lot of people.

They will all be surprised at how much money you have to burn.

been there done that (both NA and Turbo), at the end of the day the only people that win are the rta

[fatboyz39]

Dump 10 grand into any car and youll surprise a lot of people.

They will all be surprised at how much money you have to burn.

been there done that (both NA and Turbo), at the end of the day the only people that win are the rta

IF its all legal then why would the rta win?

[Perry]

Sorry guys havent been on this thread for yonks. Yes very happy with my car. Just finished making a new intake last night, is now loud as a stampede of elephants. Still have new throttle body and intake manifold to fit and tune :D :D :D :D :D :D

But need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$:( :( :( :(

ahahaaa when ur tuning it? again

[dc2rrrr]

ahahaaa when ur tuning it? again

Should be popping in sat morn, Hope Age can have a tinker.

[spardikis]

im using a vtir block with civic type r pistons and 5 zigen 4-2-1 headders. the rest is basicly type r spec
- head, cams, intake, tb etc...

making 110kw at the wheels.

eh, im stoked:)

the vtir bottom end worked fine for me, and i picked it up as cheap as:)

[Perry]

Should be popping in sat morn, Hope Age can have a tinker.

Kool ill see you on Sat then, need to chat about something:thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

im using a vtir block with civic type r pistons and 5 zigen 4-2-1 headders. the rest is basicly type r spec
- head, cams, intake, tb etc...

making 110kw at the wheels.

eh, im stoked:)

the vtir bottom end worked fine for me, and i picked it up as cheap as:)

no valve clearance problems with the pistons? fantastic!

"poor mans" type R has paid off for you :thumbsup:

[spardikis]

yeah for sure - thats with a 2 layer gasket too:)
its running 245psi consistantly through all 4 cylinders too! thats rather high lol.

thanks!!!

[shebangs]

im using a vtir block with civic type r pistons and 5 zigen 4-2-1 headders. the rest is basicly type r spec
- head, cams, intake, tb etc...

making 110kw at the wheels.

eh, im stoked:)

the vtir bottom end worked fine for me, and i picked it up as cheap as:)

Arrr, you must be the one that pulled 109.4kw at APC? Congrats. For ITR internals, you didn't pull very high though. Your rims must weight a tonnne aswell, which can't help.

Matt

[spardikis]

yeah, they are heavy and will be changed when i go up the quarter on the 30th... cant wait:)

p.s you should come for a run mat ;)

[BIG`O]

he may be scared the dc4's might "fly" past him ;)

this is a good read. im trying to locate a b18c bottom end and my swap will be all go ahead. can't wait.

one small question, if i'm running a chipped jdm itr ecu, what will i have to do about the butterfly runners or whatever on the b18c2 t/b???

[locote]

They are operated by manifold vaccum not the ECU.
So they will still open up

[shebangs]

he may be scared the dc4's might "fly" past him ;)

Yeh thats it, considering I put more down at the wheels than your mate and weight less aswell. More like I'd be scared of ricers like you running into me cos you can't drive for shit.

[BIG`O]

Yeh thats it, considering I put more down at the wheels than your mate and weight less aswell. More like I'd be scared of ricers like you running into me cos you can't drive for shit.

:thumbsup:

[string]

They are operated by manifold vaccum not the ECU.
So they will still open up
Well that's obviously not true, considering that in an n/a car, you'll hit 0psig the instant you go full-throttle. The butterflies also coincidentally always open at 5750 rpm; I doubt that the gsr manifold has some magical flow characteristics which cause it to flow a magical pressure at that rpm :D

[locote]

what is the purpose of the vacum hose attached to the top of the diaphram wich activates the butterflys???

[CRXer]

what is the purpose of the vacum hose attached to the top of the diaphram wich activates the butterflys???

U were almost right.

The IAB is operated by manifold vacuum,but the ecu closes the IAB solenoid at a predetermined rpm which stops the manifold vacuum closing the IAB thru the hose your looking at onto the diaphragm.

EDIT i think that finally makes sense.

[spardikis]

too true - not to mention the wire that goes into that little vaccume box that controlls the manifold, it must have some function from the ecu...surely

[ginganggooly]

my old, grey POS pulled 115kw at the wheels with a jdm header, stock TB, skunk2 IM, modified stock airbox and hondata. running with the 'ol (stock) faithful b18c2.

it's not a bad little setup really, i'm guessing it'd have made quite a bit more herbs with a decent head package.

[tinkerbell]

what is the purpose of the vacum hose attached to the top of the diaphram wich activates the butterflys???

the vacuum hose is attacherd to the vaccum tank, that is charged by the engine and activated by the solenoid that is wired to the ECU...



if you DONT know DONT post...

it really is a simple concept isn't it???

[spardikis]

goos stuff :) so to use the vtir intake manifold properly you need a vtir ecu.
thanks for the help

[tinkerbell]

or use a programable ECU with a rpm triggered Aux. output...