[Euro] Vtec range question

[pilotb777_300]

I reved my honda euro today for the first time to 7000 rpm since I bought the car and I must say I did feel a slight kick from somwhere between 6000 to 7000. the problem is it lasted for like 1 sec max before I hit the rev limiter !!! what good is that to me ! and if everytime I wana get a slight kick I have to hit 7000 rpm, I wont have much of an engine left in a few month !

[mr_mojo02]

didnt you test drive the car before you bought it?

[pilotb777_300]

yeah I did, and it is a good car for the price I paid... I'm just puzzled at why honda dont have a wider Vtec rpm range... like 2000rpm for instance....

[EuroDude]

Because the engine does not benefit from VTEC kicking in earlier. Apparently Honda chose the optimal RPM to kick VTEC in.

[SiReal]

also, you bought a family car, not an 'outright' sports car. If you were after 'outright' performance, then you have chosen the wrong car.

[pilotb777_300]

also, you bought a family car, not an 'outright' sports car. If you were after 'outright' performance, then you have chosen the wrong car.


so if I had bought a type-R the Vtec Rpm range is larger ????

and if so, is there a way to change the ECU on the euro to alter this variable ?

[tRipitaka]

so if I had bought a type-R the Vtec Rpm range is larger ????

and if so, is there a way to change the ECU on the euro to alter this variable ?
you would have about 3krpm to play with if you were to buy a dc2r (for example)..

if you want to "safely" alter it.. you would be looking at replacing your internals and ECU

[EuroDude]

Yeah and if you want VTEC to kick in earlier, then you have the option of getting the ECU reflashed (search for "Euro Hondata").

I was a bit dissapointed to, but have gotten used to it. I mean the Euro can accelerate 0-100 in ~7.6 seconds which is quite respectable anyway :thumbsup:

Plus you need to remember that the K24A engines have VTC, so iVTEC is always active either way ;)

[SiReal]

maybe you could get a nice CAI. That assists performance a little bit (well it sounds nice anyway) :)

[yourfather]

you've bought one of the best bang for buck entry luxury cars out there, just because it has a manual transmission does not mean you bought an enzo.

[ngupil]

vtec controller or AFC might help, because you can adjust when do you want the vtec to kick in. but as far as i know, there are not many mechanic that can install vafc2 correctly. thats in melb at least

[yfin]

power delivery is very linear on the euro - something a test drive should have revealed.

ps - please make sure the subject of your thread reflects the question you have. I have edited the thread title. Saying "not happy" as a thread subject doesn't tell people who scan the index what the thread is about. Not all members read every thread. Thanks!

[aaronng]

For me, I find that I don't need to hit VTEC for max acceleration. The Euro accelerates harder at 4500-5000rpm than at 6500rpm for me according to my butt dyno. I don't need no VTEC, but it's there if I need it. VTC on the other hand is gooooood....

[pilotb777_300]

For me, I find that I don't need to hit VTEC for max acceleration. The Euro accelerates harder at 4500-5000rpm than at 6500rpm for me according to my butt dyno. I don't need no VTEC, but it's there if I need it. VTC on the other hand is gooooood....


yeah I did kinda feel a slight drop off just before just before Vtec kicked in... I could be imagining things though ! almost felt like I lost a little bit of torque....

[aaronng]

If you look at the dynos, there is a drop in torque after 5000rpm, because the large cylinders cannot be filled quick enough.

[TECBOY]

man honds are awesum cars and just coz they have vtec doesnt mean the rev ranges and gearing is the same. Dont expect a big kick and long rev range from the accord coz its not made for that. its made for efficient, smooth power delivery and most of all a comfortable safe ride. If u want to experience a big Vtec hit then shuld have bought a type r for the same cash.
Do some research next time man and listen to wat u really want in a car,,, u only live once

[pilotb777_300]

man honds are awesum cars and just coz they have vtec doesnt mean the rev ranges and gearing is the same. Dont expect a big kick and long rev range from the accord coz its not made for that. its made for efficient, smooth power delivery and most of all a comfortable safe ride. If u want to experience a big Vtec hit then shuld have bought a type r for the same cash.
Do some research next time man and listen to wat u really want in a car,,, u only live once

yeah I did look at integra's as well when I was looking for a car, specially the 2002 Type R and above.... its was an awsome car and very sporty, it was just a tad too harsh and uncomfortable to be driving back and forward to work everyday in traffic and so on... The euro was a good mix of comfort and peformance... so I guess I cant complain now !!! :) I was just curious thats all... thanks for all the replies ! :thumbsup: I had a look at the hondata stuff as well.. seems very interesting ! cant wait till its released !...

[Adagio]

I think you should get your car dyno tested as mine kicks in from 4,500rpm. From what I have read and felt this engine is designed to give you the best of both worlds torque and power in the right order.
Adagio

[pilotb777_300]

I think you should get your car dyno tested as mine kicks in from 4,500rpm. From what I have read and felt this engine is designed to give you the best of both worlds torque and power in the right order.
Adagio


From what I've read on this forum plus the dyno tests that have been done so far, it looks like u get best torque output at around thr 4500 RPM mark then u get a drop off in toruqe at around 6000 RPM I dont know anything about Vtec to comment on when it kicks in. from what I've been told and felt in the car so far its got a range of between 6000 to 7000.. which isnt very much.. but again from what little I know about the car and from what ppl have told me so far Vtec has improved since the old days of having a huge kick at a certain RPM.. it now apparently give continuous smooth power throughout the rev range... and again I dont know very much about the system.. so if anyone wishes to correct this information plz feel free ! :thumbsup:

[Tobster]

An extra 1000 rpm before redline would be nice though -- I remember a review that said the same thing.

I regard the VTEC feeling as a reminder to change gear... :) (it just revs so smoothly and feels like it could happily keep going!)

[tanalasta]

Flooring the accelerator - there's a nice acceleration from 4000rpm onwards with a slight drop between 5500-6000rpm. Then there's a sudden kick again just over the 6000rpm mark before redline / gear change.

Does anyone have some stock Euro manual / automatic dyno graphs? I'm thinking of going to dyno my car just for fun and wouldn't mind a reference point.

[industrie]

the new ivtec wont give you the same kick as the old vtec system does, as the VTIR's, eg prelude, integra and type R's, s2k give you that "vtec kick" at 5500rpm etc etc...and you still feel it going as the revs get higher...

the new ivtec is smooth and gradual hence you dont feel it as much

[aaronng]

the new ivtec wont give you the same kick as the old vtec system does, as the VTIR's, eg prelude, integra and type R's, s2k give you that "vtec kick" at 5500rpm etc etc...and you still feel it going as the revs get higher...

the new ivtec is smooth and gradual hence you dont feel it as much
Would you like me to give you the old "Euro's low cams are more aggressive than the DC5R's while high cams are less aggressive" explanation? It has nothing to do with i-VTEC. The k20a2's switchover point is more noticeable. The 2006 TSX's switchover point it also more noticeable than the Euro's. Why? Because the difference in cam timing and lift is larger in those 2 cars than in the Euro.

[h1coupe]

vtec on the euro kicks in at 6100rpm and the fuel cut off is at 7100rpm so it´s 1000rpm of vtec activation. and there is a delay in power from 5-6krpm, because of vtec coming on to late. hondas have usually had their vtec come on just a little bit to late like 500rpm or so but the accord/tsx has it about 1-1200rpm to late. an optimal vtec power out put would be like the ones you see from the reflashes available for these cars, no sudden surge in "vtec power" no extra kick just seamless acceleration to redline.
the reflash from hondata(and I think hondatech also) rectifies this flaw in the powerband and moves vtec to 4850rpm and raises redline to 7600rpm so we get 2750rpm of active vtec instead of 1000rpm, and we get an almost perfect dyno curve:)

[BiLL|z0r]

I think you should get your car dyno tested as mine kicks in from 4,500rpm. From what I have read and felt this engine is designed to give you the best of both worlds torque and power in the right order.
Adagio

If it's a stock AUDM Euro it's around 6000rpm.

[aaronng]

vtec on the euro kicks in at 6100rpm and the fuel cut off is at 7100rpm so it´s 1000rpm of vtec activation. and there is a delay in power from 5-6krpm, because of vtec coming on to late. hondas have usually had their vtec come on just a little bit to late like 500rpm or so but the accord/tsx has it about 1-1200rpm to late. an optimal vtec power out put would be like the ones you see from the reflashes available for these cars, no sudden surge in "vtec power" no extra kick just seamless acceleration to redline.
the reflash from hondata(and I think hondatech also) rectifies this flaw in the powerband and moves vtec to 4850rpm and raises redline to 7600rpm so we get 2750rpm of active vtec instead of 1000rpm, and we get an almost perfect dyno curve:)
With 95 RON petrol, the ideal VTEC camchange point is 6000rpm. Hondata's reflash uses fuel maps made for 98 RON and runs a little leaner. With 98 RON and proper A/F ratio tuning and VTC advanced, the ideal camchange point becomes 5000RPM.

4850RPM is for the 06 TSX, which has bigger intake valves, a wider throttle body and larger exhaust diameter.

[pilotb777_300]

With 95 RON petrol, the ideal VTEC camchange point is 6000rpm. Hondata's reflash uses fuel maps made for 98 RON and runs a little leaner. With 98 RON and proper A/F ratio tuning and VTC advanced, the ideal camchange point becomes 5000RPM.

4850RPM is for the 06 TSX, which has bigger intake valves, a wider throttle body and larger exhaust diameter.

ok this is starting to make a bit of sense now.... but what if I'm using 98 RON now... does that mean I get no benefit out of it ??? I've heard that modern day ECU's adapt to give the best performance depending on the kind of driving you do as well as the fuel type used....

[Brash22]

Jumping from my VTI-R Prelude to my parents new Euro, there was definately a difference.

Now the idea behind i-VTEC was specifically to get a more linear power delivery. Basically, it's three cam profiles, not just two. The high cam, low cam and one in the middle.

Have a listen to the exhaust, you'll hear what I mean.

Using 98RON may not make a noticable difference in performance, but should in economy. Whether it's enough of an increase to make it run cheaper on 98, well that's a car by car thing, do your own tests.

In my old (91) Corolla, using 95 over 91 increased the economy more than enough so that I was getting enough extra klicks out of the same tank of fuel that it was saving me $$$. Going from 95 to 98 didn't save me any money, but the engine always sounded better at 5000RPM. It's a mechanical device, so sounding better must mean it's running better.

[aaronng]

ok this is starting to make a bit of sense now.... but what if I'm using 98 RON now... does that mean I get no benefit out of it ??? I've heard that modern day ECU's adapt to give the best performance depending on the kind of driving you do as well as the fuel type used....
You got that right! I have tried 95 RON and it made no difference. However, our engines are tuned for 95 RON and the ECU can detect knocking through the knock sensors and retard the timing as required. Since it has to detect the pinging first, I'd prefer to have 98 RON in my car in case I get a bad batch of petrol. A bad batch of 95 RON means 94.x while a bad 98 RON could be 97.x. I'd prefer to have 97.x and NOT have any pinging rather than rely on the engine to retard timing. That's why I use 98 RON.

Using 98 RON for power on a stock Euro is a waste of money. Using it for fuel consumption or prevention of knocking however is not a waste.

From what I know about the Euro, the ECU can retard timing and ignition for lower octane petrol. But I don't think it works the other way around. Otherwise, Hondata would not have been able to produce so much mid-RPM torque over the stock fuel maps and timings.

[aaronng]

Jumping from my VTI-R Prelude to my parents new Euro, there was definately a difference.

Now the idea behind i-VTEC was specifically to get a more linear power delivery. Basically, it's three cam profiles, not just two. The high cam, low cam and one in the middle.

Have a listen to the exhaust, you'll hear what I mean.

i-VTEC has only a low cam and a high cam. It has 3 lobes on the cam per pair of valves. The 2 outer cams run the valves when at lowcam. At 6000rpm, the pins lock and both valves run on the larger middle lobe.

You're confusing it with the old d15 3-stage VTEC where an additional stage was possible with 1 valve running on the smaller outer lobe and the other on the larger middle lobe.

[pilotb777_300]

I dont get it... if hondata can do what they say they can and without damage to the engine, why doesnt honda just do that from the start instead of having to put up with this crappy 1000 RPM Vtec range !

[Suntzu]

I dont find the 6000rpm vtec useful at all. You dont drive daily at 6000rpm and I dont race so I rarley hit it. Its a gimic a for 140kw power figures on automotive review magazines and as a marketing tool.

[aaronng]

I dont get it... if hondata can do what they say they can and without damage to the engine, why doesnt honda just do that from the start instead of having to put up with this crappy 1000 RPM Vtec range !
If you take a stock Euro, lend it to your sister and she fills it up with 91 RON, the conservative fuel maps will produce only a little knocking and the ECU will retard timing so that it is possible to run 91 RON on 95 RON fuel maps. Plus, the A/F ratio is rich, so preignition is further controlled.

If you take a Hondata'd Euro, lend it to your sister and she does the same fill up with 91 RON.... THe ECU will still try to retard timing, but trying to retard 98 RON fuel maps to run 91 RON is not as easy is doing it with 95 RON maps. Plus, the A/F ratio has been tuned to run leaner so that the engine produces more torque/power. A leaner condition + 91 RON is a disaster that not even the ECU can recover from. The best it could do is throw a CEL and run in limp mode (if that is possible). But, if CELs and limp modes occur often on stock cars, then Honda's reputation for bulletproof reliability would be shot to pieces, yeah?

And if you want to ask why don't they put both 95 and 98 RON fuel maps in, there is not enough space for both in the ECU memory. Plus, the ECU is a specialised computer, not a general one like your PC. You can't just tell it to switch between fuel maps depending on the fuel put in (or through a switch). The ECU has to have the hardware to do this.

[aaronng]

I dont find the 6000rpm vtec useful at all. You dont drive daily at 6000rpm and I dont race so I rarley hit it. Its a gimic a for 140kw power figures on automotive review magazines and as a marketing tool.
For normal street driving where everyone shifts at 4000rpm and only use 1/4-1/2 throttle, they are only applying about 50-60kW. So why bother trying to reach 6000rpm? The Euro pulls harder at 4500rpm anyway. Since you are are NOT racing (it's bad mm'kay), you don't need to extract peak power. All you need is torque. The only reason to hit 6000rpm is if you want to listen to the engine note.

[pilotb777_300]

For normal street driving where everyone shifts at 4000rpm and only use 1/4-1/2 throttle, they are only applying about 50-60kW at the flywheel. So why bother trying to reach 6000rpm? The Euro pulls harder at 4500rpm anyway. Since you are are NOT racing (it's bad mm'kay), you don't need to extract peak power. All you need is torque. The only reason to hit 6000rpm is if you want to listen to the engine note.

The engine note is awsome at 6000RPm and above... I think listening to engine note is half the fun of driving.. look at ferrari... Some dont even have stero's cause why would u wana listen to music when u can listen to the the engine note that ferrai's produce. I'm not saying the honda is as good ofcourse but u only get that engine note when Vtec kicks in above 6000 RPM and by then you've only got an extra 1 (if that ) sec b4 fuel cut off.most of the driving I do is usually less than 3000RPM but every now and theyn u do wana push it that extra little bit and it would be nice to get Vtec power a little earlier.. so I might just have to wait for hondata to some up with something... I just hope it doesnt toast my engine overtime !

[tRipitaka]

The engine note is awsome at 6000RPm and above... I think listening to engine note is half the fun of driving.. look at ferrari... Some dont even have stero's cause why would u wana listen to music when u can listen to the the engine note that ferrai's produce. I'm not saying the honda is as good ofcourse but u only get that engine note when Vtec kicks in above 6000 RPM and by then you've only got an extra 1 (if that ) sec b4 fuel cut off.most of the driving I do is usually less than 3000RPM but every now and theyn u do wana push it that extra little bit and it would be nice to get Vtec power a little earlier.. so I might just have to wait for hondata to some up with something... I just hope it doesnt toast my engine overtime !
you do have to remember that you bought a family luxury car, not an all-out sports car..

[pilotb777_300]

you do have to remember that you bought a family luxury car, not an all-out sports car..


yeah I know that and I already explained my reasons earlier on for not buyin a full on sports car... but the euro is fairly sporty... and I remember reading somewhere on the american TSX forum that the RSX (american integra) is gonna be phased out and replaced by a 2 door euro (TSX) of some sorts... now why would they wana replace an integra by a family car ? (assuming what I've read isnt total garbage which it could very well be ! )

[tRipitaka]

yeah I know that and I already explained my reasons earlier on for not buyin a full on sports car... but the euro is fairly sporty... and I remember reading somewhere on the american TSX forum that the RSX (american integra) is gonna be phased out and replaced by a 2 door euro (TSX) of some sorts... now why would they wana replace an integra by a family car ? (assuming what I've read isnt total garbage which it could very well be ! )
you could relate this situation to a civic..
the base civic (civic CXi), is really nothing more than an economical A-B car (no offence base civic owners)
but then u compare it to it's top of the range model (civic type R or even civic VTIR) and you have a sports car..

anything can be a more powerful car, just change a few things (engine conversion or internals or even both) and bang, u have a performance car..
as with your situation, change a few things, and u'll be able to rev out more..

and i'm assuming the "2 door euro" will have a more "sporty" engine and be able to rev out more/produce more power..
and possible reasons for bringing out this 2door euro could be that people like the look of the euro more, but want a sportier version ? and possibly the dc5's aren't selling too well..

[pilotb777_300]

you could relate this situation to a civic..
the base civic (civic CXi), is really nothing more than an economical A-B car (no offence base civic owners)
but then u compare it to it's top of the range model (civic type R or even civic VTIR) and you have a sports car..

anything can be a more powerful car, just change a few things (engine conversion or internals or even both) and bang, u have a performance car..
as with your situation, change a few things, and u'll be able to rev out more..

and i'm assuming the "2 door euro" will have a more "sporty" engine and be able to rev out more/produce more power..


fair point... I think I may start looking at some mods.. my only problem with mods is resale value.. I know if I was buying a car I'd usually stay clear of moded up cars.... u never know who did the work and how well it was done or how hard the car has been driven. But I guess I'd be quite happy with mods that can be changed back to stack again if need be b4 I would sell the car...

[h1coupe]

With 95 RON petrol, the ideal VTEC camchange point is 6000rpm. Hondata's reflash uses fuel maps made for 98 RON and runs a little leaner. With 98 RON and proper A/F ratio tuning and VTC advanced, the ideal camchange point becomes 5000RPM.

4850RPM is for the 06 TSX, which has bigger intake valves, a wider throttle body and larger exhaust diameter.


you are correct I had been reading about the 06tsx, and we did not get the upgrades that they got for the 06, we still have the same engine as the 04-05tsx.

so a 5000rpm switch point should be ideal:)

[BusterSonic12]

comptech super charge, increases the vtec range from 3000rpm --> 7000rpm.. :P yum yum

[aaronng]

you are correct I had been reading about the 06tsx, and we did not get the upgrades that they got for the 06, we still have the same engine as the 04-05tsx.

so a 5000rpm switch point should be ideal:)
When hondata comes out for the euro, it will be 5000rpm. Yummy.

[EuroDude]

hms I thought the Hondata upgrade was already available?

[aaronng]

hms I thought the Hondata upgrade was already available?
Yup, but it is not for sale yet.....

[EuroDude]

:eek: why are there reliability concerns on something?

[aaronng]

I think they want to get all the stage 1 to stage 4 packages ready before they have it for sale.

I'm just guessing here. I have no idea on what is actually happening. Last I heard, they were waiting for the exhaust to be fab'd overseas and shipped back.

[yfin]

I think they want to get all the stage 1 to stage 4 packages ready before they have it for sale.

I'm just guessing here. I have no idea on what is actually happening. Last I heard, they were waiting for the exhaust to be fab'd overseas and shipped back.

That is what I heard too. It would be great if they could release stage 1 now though as that doesnt require bolt ons. But I imagine it is easier to have all the options available at the same time.

[h1coupe]

When hondata comes out for the euro, it will be 5000rpm. Yummy.


keeping fingers crossed;)

I went to the track tonight and that dead spot between 5-6, along with the terrible gearing in 2and 3rd gear along with the final drive is totally killing the performance of the car:(
I managed to get 15.201sec, if those 2problems were taken care of I would be in the 14secs:cool:

[Chris_F]

keeping fingers crossed;)

I went to the track tonight and that dead spot between 5-6, along with the terrible gearing in 2and 3rd gear along with the final drive is totally killing the performance of the car:(
I managed to get 15.201sec, if those 2problems were taken care of I would be in the 14secs:cool:

nice time, what mods do you have, if any?

[yfin]

keeping fingers crossed;)

I went to the track tonight and that dead spot between 5-6, along with the terrible gearing in 2and 3rd gear along with the final drive is totally killing the performance of the car:(
I managed to get 15.201sec, if those 2problems were taken care of I would be in the 14secs:cool:

Indeed, excellent time. More info about the car please as well as technique used - eg flat shifted? (ie cheating!). Post up temp too.

[h1coupe]

the car is totally stock.
it´s a Type-S ´06, and yes I don´t lift of the gas when I shift? is that flatshifting or cheating:p

I have on the way a K&N typhoon intake, and those cheap ass stainless steel headers off ebay along with comptech springs.
next in line will be hondata img.
UR underdrive pulleys.
single exit exhaust (mainly for the weight reduction)
then the reflash.
maybe a high flow cat?

a lighter flywheel, and I am debating on if I should have my ratios changed or just try to find a tranny from one of the other 6speed hondas, they all have better ratios, the tsx has the same as we but better final drive, and the rsx-s 02-04 has better gears but the same final drive as we do, so any of the other should work just fine;) but the easiest to find at a decent price is probably the rsx-s 02-04, maybe just get one of those and get a better final drive with it?

I so want to reach 200whp and have the gearing sorted;)

[h1coupe]

I launch somewhere at 3500rpm.
and the temperature was 12degreas

[aaronng]

Wow, totally stock 15.2.

[EuroDude]

Was that with VSA on or off?

[Chris_F]

the car is totally stock.
it´s a Type-S ´06, and yes I don´t lift of the gas when I shift? is that flatshifting or cheating:p

I have on the way a K&N typhoon intake, and those cheap ass stainless steel headers off ebay along with comptech springs.
next in line will be hondata img.
UR underdrive pulleys.
single exit exhaust (mainly for the weight reduction)
then the reflash.
maybe a high flow cat?

a lighter flywheel, and I am debating on if I should have my ratios changed or just try to find a tranny from one of the other 6speed hondas, they all have better ratios, the tsx has the same as we but better final drive, and the rsx-s 02-04 has better gears but the same final drive as we do, so any of the other should work just fine;) but the easiest to find at a decent price is probably the rsx-s 02-04, maybe just get one of those and get a better final drive with it?

I so want to reach 200whp and have the gearing sorted;)

i like the sound of your plan hehe

[yfin]

I launch somewhere at 3500rpm.
and the temperature was 12degreas
Exellent work h1coupe - something just clicked - are you from Iceland? As much as I like the time be careful with flatshifting...

[h1coupe]

yes I am from Iceland.
and I only flatshift when I´m at the track. It´s pretty obvious that it doesn´t do the car any favours:).

I am also looking in to getting an engine torque damper, like the one for the euro-r from spoon? do you know if that would be compatible with our k24, has anyone tried it?

[aaronng]

There is a large black piping on the left of the engine that gets in the way of the k20a damper.

[h1coupe]

damn. well there is a guy trying to make one on a tsx forum, looks like a good piece, we´ll see how it holds up?

[Chris_F]

There is a large black piping on the left of the engine that gets in the way of the k20a damper.

have you got a picture or a bit more detail about this piping that blocks the k20a damper?

[aaronng]

have you got a picture or a bit more detail about this piping that blocks the k20a damper?
It's the piping from the PS pump.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i19/1939_6mg.jpg

[Chris_F]

thanks, was never sure why they wouldn't fit. Looks like will have to see what JTso comes up with with his custom made jobby etd wise. I want my lower arm bar back on :( - i love how that thing tightens up the steering