HID for reflectors?

[floopy]

i have done searches but havnt found the answer im looking for!

so, im thinking of HIDs and i want to do it as cheap as possible with DECENT results.

so can this still be achieve with reflector lights?

[Q_ball]

Im not understanding ur question there...your trying to create fake HIDs...with reflectors? :confused:

[Fr3aKi3]

Q_Ball: I think floopy is after a cost effective way to get HID's with stock headlight housings (reflectors) and still get 'decent' results.

You'll get more light on the road but then you'd also annoy the f#@K out of everyone else on the road, that's why there is pretty much no manufacturer which has OEM reflector HID's. They're all projector ones these days. Everytime I see a car which has had an aftermarket HID kit added, I just wanna tell them to save some more cash up and do a proper conversion with projectors.

If you do decide to go with a plug n play kit then don't go for the 8000k or 10000k because all you're doing is making the light looks pretty (since its blue/purple in colour) BUT you'd be seeing less on the road and straining your eyes much more than compared to using something along the ratings of 4300-6000k.

If you want HID's with good results then the only way to go is with projectors. Search for "retrofitting", i think a user by the name of 'saxman' has done a write up on how to do a retrofit or you can take a look at:
http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/

You have to register but it's free and has a wealth of info about HID's, LED'sand conversions.

[destrukshn]

that's why there is pretty much no manufacturer which has OEM reflector HID's.

that is where you are wrong.
the late model honda legends had em, HID's WITH reflectors, factory.
that's why there are 2 types of HID bulbs from factory
d2s being for projectors
d2r being for reflectors.

[Fr3aKi3]

As i said "pretty much" I didn't say there weren't any, fair enough that may have been a poor choice in words but in saying that though are there many cars which are currently being produced which use D2R bulbs with reflectors? Probably not many and the reason is prjectors are the way to go with HID's. Even with that taken into consideration the reflectors would've been designed for HID's.

From my understanding is that halogens are a point source of light whereas HID's are more like and arc of light. So if a HID bulb is used in a reflector which was designed for halogens, wouldn't the light be unevenly/poorly dispersed? Reason being is that since the light produce by the HID bulb is more of an 'arc' than a point source the angle of reflections would be different.

The question being asked here is can 'decent' results be achieved by using HID with reflectors in a cost effective. I guess it depends on how you interpret 'decent'. If blinding other people on the road is a definition decent then by all means use a aftermarket plug and play kit with standard halogen reflectors. Personally i'd define 'decent' as something which works well and HID's with projectors work well for me.

[floopy]

ic ic... well i dont want to blind ne one across the road.

i did read saxmans write up, but i didnt really understand it ahaha
so do i change my headlight housing completely? (retrofitting?)
or is it using the existing housing but with some sort of projector conversion?

thanks for the replies btw. i shall check out that link now ahah prolly should have read that first b4 i replied.

[saxman]

there are a few cars with hid reflectors, but it's decreasing with every model year as it really isn't the best way to do things.

However, it's a completely moot point, as those hid reflectors are designed for use with HID bulbs, just like hid projectors are. The reflectors that are in your stock halogen lights are not, so to properly use hids, you're going to need to do a retrofit one way or another.


Doing an hid retrofit isn't necessarily about projectors... it's about lights designed for use with hids... projectors just happen to be a lot easier to get to work.

Either way, the concept is that you're using OEM quality parts, designed for use as an hid system, and basically integrating them into your stock headlight housing.

For example, here's a set I did...

the "stock" light(actually an aftermarket light that's been painted and such, but it's a normal halogen refelector light)

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/saxman242/P1010071.jpg

the retrofitted light(using a projector assembly from a bmw 3 series)

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/saxman242/P1010072.jpg


the funny thing is that if you keep a watchful eye on ebay and such, you can generally get an oem set up(projectors, bulbs and ballasts/ignitors) for less money than a low quality aftermarket drop in kit would cost.

Vastly superior performance for less money... hard to complain about that.




it's also worth mentioning that hid kits not only blind people, but they simply put a whole hell of a lot light onto the road. Glare = light going where you don't want it... so light that could be used to illuminate the road is just blinding people. You'll never get anything that can even start to compare with the brightness, width of beam, and just general illumination of the road that you'd get with a good projector set up.

[floopy]

thanks saxman ur last post made heaps of sense n actually clicked in my head lol.

so i guess my next qst is, what parts do i need to retrofit but im guessing tahts a commmon qst so i shall search for that first.

btw the drop in kit ur talking abt, are u saying they're no good even after a retrofit has been done?

[saxman]

drop in kits should never be used...

the quality of parts is always sub par, they don't last nearly as long as oem, alignment is rarely correct, etc..

also, after you retrofit in a projector, you'll need a D2S bulb(whatever bulb your car used stock becomes completely irrelevant), so there's really no need to use a drop in hid kit. OEM bulbs(either phillips or osram) and oem ballasts(come in a variety of shapes and sizes) are all you'll ever need... and you have the peace of mind of knowing they're designed to last and not as part of some subpar set up.


the basics for retrofitting are going to be a pair of projectors(there are tons to choose from... what you want out of it, how much room you have, and how much you have to spend will help decide what is best for you), a pair of oem D2S bulbs, and a pair of ballasts(some require an external ignitor, some have an integrated one... for the most part, if the ballast is there, and it has a way to connect to your bulb, you're good to go). From there, extra stuff you'll need will depend entirely on what is the best way to mount those projectors into your lights, and how you want to make 'em look. On ebay.com at least, a simple set up with bulbs, ballasts, and projectors will run you around $3-400... more for set ups with some higher end projectors, sometimes less(I've managed complete set ups for under $150... wish I could find that again) if you know what you're searching for and find a good deal.

It's worth noting that there IS a difference between left hand drive vehicle projectors and right hand drive vehicle projectors, so if you're searching on ebay, make sure to take this into consideration.

[hugo]

dude...where did you get those bezel from??
how much???

[saxman]

the little chrome bezels came from the store at hidplanet.com and run around $40US

the shrouds they're attached to(that hides most of the projector) are actually 3" maf adapters for using a normal air filter on a mass air flow sensor... cost me about $12 US

[Lebowski]

Saxman, I just retrofitted a HID Kit into my late model car that came standard with projectors. In one of your posts on this forum you mention projectors designed for HID are not the same as those designed for halogen however with my retrofit into OEM projectors the results have been excellent. I have clean cut off lines to the sides and front, and no glare whatsoever, the light beam cuts off below other drivers line of sight.

I used an Aura 6000k H7 Kit.

Also can you tell me what is the actual difference between left and right hand drive projectors, do they put light on the road differently?

Cheers

[saxman]

the cut off isn't the only difference between hid and halogen projectors... yes, on some, putting an hid bulb in there really screws things up, but generally, the light output with an hid projector is just much much better... they're designed for the light output of an hid bulb. You may not get a better cut off(well, you might, depending on what projector you use), but you'll get a lot more light on the road, and a much much wider beam.

It also depends on what projector you're using, as some of the H7 projectors(mainly the valeo units) use pretty much the same projector for both their halogen and hid units with just a different base. The valeos in this case are the exception, not the rule.


The difference between left and right hand drive projectors is which way the step goes. With a left hand drive vehicle, the light will step up to the right, with a right hand drive vehicle, it'll step up to the left. This allows you to not blind oncoming traffic, but sep up to illuminate the sidewalk and such.

For demonstration purposes, here is the output of an LHD projector and a RHD projector

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/saxman242/unknownbeam2.jpg
disregard the fact that one step is bigger than the other... that's the difference between an ece cut off and a dot cut off... point is to show the top one is from a RHD projector, and the bottom is from a LHD projector

[saxman]

Came across these photos which really show the difference between an hid and a halogen projector with an hid kit.

The car in these pics is the USDM Mazda 3... comes with oem halogen projectors with hids optional.

http://members.shaw.ca/rossnichol/hidcomp.jpg
this should demonstrate the potential for extra glare and such that you get with an hid kit in a stock projector. The two kits in the middle put off less light and more glare.

Here are some wall shots to show the difference.

This is the output of the oem hid projectors.
http://members.shaw.ca/rossnichol/oem.jpg

This is the output of the oem halogen projectors a drop in hid kit

http://members.shaw.ca/rossnichol/aftermarket.jpg

notice the drop in kits still have a cut off... at least to the sides(with obvious glare in the middle), but have a much much more narrow light output. You get a big hot spot in the middle, but off to the sides the intensity just dies off. This is a result of the halogen projectors being designed to output light differently.


Also, be aware, that with a 6000k hid kit, you're getting 30% less light output than if you were using oem 4300k bulbs.

[Lebowski]

thanks Saxman. Those last 2 pics show the difference very well. I'll have a look at my set up tonight and compare.
When I look at my HID's head on there is definately no glare as demonstrated in the Mazda3 image, the light is very focussed so perhaps I have Valeo projectors (would these be OEM in Subaru?)
So what I'm interested in now is if the light projection is even across the front without any hotspots, I will check that tonight.
I knew I'd trade off some light output going with 6000k, however when comparing against 4300 - 5000k the real world difference was negligible and I much prefered the colour of 6000k.

[saxman]

the thing with the higher color temp bulbs is that because of the blue in the light, they appear brighter(as you're getting color contrast that is normally only there in bright light situations), so the lighting appears brighter to you than it actually is... in reality, you can't see near as much.


Honestly not sure what projectors the new subarus use

[Lebowski]

saxman, since fitting HID's I've begun to pay more attention to other road users with HID's and was surprised when I saw a current 06 BMW 3 series coming towards me with very noticeable glare from the HID's. Not as extreme as the retrofit Mazda 3 but there was glare nontheless. So it seems even OEM HID's are not perfect all the time.

[Fr3aKi3]

Are you sure it's glare and not just the cut off line that's coming into view?

Although you are right, there isn't a perfect HID system (but is there anything that is perfect at all?).
OEM Hid's should have an auto levelling system to help reduce glare but this would only help to a certain extent.

[saxman]

there are a lot of cars that come with improperly aimed projectors from the factory. Also, there are times while driving that the cut off simply is going to be above your eye level(going over hills, over bumps, etc) even with proper autoleveling


Out here at least, not all of the bmw's come standard with hids afaik, so it's possible it could have been a drop in kit.