[EURO] Important for 06 owners to know

[Tobster]

This is a bit of a continuation of this thread

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29717

but I think it's sufficiently important that I've dropped it in a new one so that people notice.

I had my car serviced by the dealer yesterday and I spoke to them about my mysterious braking incident. They think this is the most probable cause:

If you disconnect the battery (or have a flat battery, etc.) or disconnect any of the sensors in an 06 model, then the VSA will not function properly and the car needs to be returned to the dealer to have it reactivated.

Somehow, it works differently from the 03-05 models.

Seemingly it still works, but not comprehensively...

[EuroDude]

How do you know if its de-activated? Does a light in the cluster light up or something?

For instance does the VSA light always stay on, regardless of the VSA button on/off status?

[Tobster]

There is no indication that it isn't fully functional.

[MiSloVic]

This is a bit of a continuation of this thread

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29717

but I think it's sufficiently important that I've dropped it in a new one so that people notice.

I had my car serviced by the dealer yesterday and I spoke to them about my mysterious braking incident. They think this is the most probable cause:

If you disconnect the battery (or have a flat battery, etc.) or disconnect any of the sensors in an 06 model, then the VSA will not function properly and the car needs to be returned to the dealer to have it reactivated.

Somehow, it works differently from the 03-05 models.

Seemingly it still works, but not comprehensively...

very strange.. I've a 06 euro and have got a flat battery after parking at the airport for 1 wk.. don't seem to be anything wrong with the VSA.. what are the symptons?

[Tobster]

There are no symptoms as such -- unless you get into a situation where the VSA should activate -- but it won't work fully.

Just passing on what I've been told...

If in doubt, phone your dealer. I was charged $80 to reactivate the system -- which I was told to contact my insurance company about (as mine is related to accident repairs) -- and the service manager was happy to speak to them about it if they wanted to be difficult, so I believe this is a genuine matter.

[mugen88]

Interesting, haven't experienced anything like that.

I have found recently that driving with VSA off is a bit of fun.

VSA normally comes with the tinest loss of traction and is annoying on occassions.

[yfin]

There are no symptoms as such -- unless you get into a situation where the VSA should activate -- but it won't work fully.

Just passing on what I've been told...

If in doubt, phone your dealer. I was charged $80 to reactivate the system -- which I was told to contact my insurance company about (as mine is related to accident repairs) -- and the service manager was happy to speak to them about it if they wanted to be difficult, so I believe this is a genuine matter.

I smell bollocks (not you Tobster - the dealer).

If this was me I would be on the phone to Honda Australia and seek confirmation. I don't always believe what dealers tell me from past experience.

Firstly, if the VSA is not functioning correctly the light should be activated - this is what Honda says in the user manual. Paying $80 when the ECU does not register any abnormality seems awfully strange.

Further, it is not uncommon for a battery to be disconnected in the ordinary operation of a vehicle's life - eg for maintenance or replacing a discharged battery.

For a dealer to say for the life of the car you must pay $80 seems a bit rich everytime you disconnect the battery.

[EuroDude]

Yep I was about to say the same thing, if there was anything wrong with a safety feature, Honda would most definetely implement a warning light or ECU code or something.

I think you got ripped off my friend.

[yfin]

Yep I was about to say the same thing, if there was anything wrong with a safety feature, Honda would most definetely implement a warning light or ECU code or something.

I think you got ripped off my friend.
I should also add that if what the dealer is saying is correct this would warrant a safety recall of all 2006 Euros as the VSA light does not register an error.

[aaronng]

Make sure you complain to Honda Australia about it. Tell them there was no VSA warning light telling you that VSA was not working anymore.

[BiLL|z0r]

I agree with Yfin here. Sounds like a whole bunch of bollocks. If it was the case they would have a recall as said. I think it's just a very sensitive VSA system, it's only a computer after all.

[tanalasta]

And while you are at it - name the dealer.

[Omotesando]

I don't believe this either, it doesn't actually make logical sense. YFIN explained it clearly - if the VSA isn't actually on, when the VSA light says its on (no yellow exclamation), you could be suing Honda or they should have a recall. 2ndly if such an important safety feature would be de-activated so easily it should be noted on the MY06's manual. I would say it is 99.9% impossible, and you've just been ripped $80.


No trying to make it sound obvious, but before you paid the $80 there were so many ways to test if the VSA was working. Just step on it in the wet whilst steering angle is slightly pointed to one side - your VSA light will be flashing, you can feel individual brake pulsing on the inner wheel, plus power will be cut. Its the easiest of tests to do.....


The other thing is, I don't understand why you think VSA is related to the other ABS thread. MY05 Euro suffers exactly the same ABS woes as what was described on the other thread. VSA should be considered separately anyhow from ABS, even though they are part of the full safety package. When VSA is off, the ABS/EBD/Brake Assist are still fully working.

Its just a very poorly calibrated ABS system.

I was doing some testing recently, doing around a bit over X5Xkph (use your imagination, note: its not as much as you think) then stepped on the brakes. Jesus - both the brakes and the ABS system on the EURO Accord suck at high speed.

I had nearly full braking pressure, and my tyres fully warmed up for maximum traction. During my braking test, the ABS and I also felt the EBD was nearly on for the whole time and my stopping distance was SO LONG, it was impossibly dangerous. I would say it braked around 30-40% longer than what it should do from X5Xkph for a 1400KG car. And the G-Force generated was nowhere near 1G to 1.1G not even until the last 10 metres, the ABS just kept pulsing and pulsing none stop for the whole time.

I honestly could not believe how bad the brakes work. Usually if I brake from normal speed, it works ok enough but I know from my experience with always testing cars at the limit (so I know what to expect in emergencies) that the braking force generated is honestly very low, just from the G-force difference alone.

I'm pretty sure I'll change both tyres and brake pads the next time. As least inbetween the ABS pulses, its actually braking the car.... and hopefully the extra tyre grip means the wheel sensors won't exaggeratedly activate ABS for every little bit of tyre slip. :(

[aaronng]

What tyres are you running now Omotesando?

We need someone with proper tyres, not the stock low-grade tyres (both 16 and 17") to try out the ABS.

[Chris_F]

good post Omotesando. I think the euro's stock pads just aren't up to the task, it's already a relatively well known issue that at high temp/hard braking the pads start leaving residue on the rotors (which is why people report a feeling of the rotors being warped).

Matell and baboo have both tracked their euros with aftermarket pads (mugen and endless NA-R respectively) and in my brief chats with them they've never mentioned overly poor breaking performance after the straight at Queensland raceway (which would easily see the car over 150kph).

Omotesando, i think it'd be interesting to see how the car performs in a similar test but with upgraded pads - keeping the stock tyres. The stock calipers/rotors should be more than adequate and I wouldn't be suprised if the problem with ABS was a result of the shit-house stock pads underperforming in high stress braking conditions.

[aaronng]

good post Omotesando. I think the euro's stock pads just aren't up to the task, it's already a relatively well known issue that at high temp/hard braking the pads start leaving residue on the rotors (which is why people report a feeling of the rotors being warped).
If the ABS is engaging, that means the braking force of the stock pads are exceeding the grip of your tyres. So I'd say it's the tyres.



Matell and baboo have both tracked their euros with aftermarket pads (mugen and endless NA-R respectively) and in my brief chats with them they've never mentioned overly poor breaking performance after the straight at Queensland raceway (which would easily see the car over 150kph).

The surface of a race track is many many times better than that of a street. There are almost no cracks, bitumen wearing out, rough spots, etc. So it is mroe difficult to lose traction on the track. What tyres did Matell and Baboo run? I'd bet it was not the stock Dunlop 2050m's.

On wakefield, the only place where you hard brake is a tight 50km/h corner which you approach at about 120km/h. Even with stock pads and the oem Dunlops, I was not able to engage ABS in that situation of hard braking.

[Omotesando]

I'm running stock Bridgestone tyres on my 17" Rims on the Lux with around 35-36 pounds of tyre pressure.

As I mentioned numerous times in previous post already, usually the best way to solve ABS braking distance problem is to first change the tyres.

However, one must ask. When my stock 17" Bridgestone tyres that are still relatively grippy, doesn't work with the ABS as a combination, then isn't there a design fault or calibration problem?

WHY SHOULD I TRY EXPERIMENTING WITH AFTERMARKET TYRES?

WHY DOESN'T my stock tyre and brake combo on the normal road, generate the correct braking G-Force that is apparent in other cars?

As for tracks, they are obviously more rubbered in and the surface is different, they do grip a bit better.

Although whether you're engaging ABS or not on a track might have to do with driver skills as well - afterall most people aren't or can't drive even 8/10ths on a track, so its not near the limit of the car.

During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about.


Brake pads wise - its more complicated too. The stock pads actually grip quite well at certain street speeds especially when cold. Aftermarket pads might have the character of having more 'final' braking friction but in between 0% - 100% braking pressure applied, it should have much better modulation control possible. As such, changing to aftermarket pads and braking at 70% effort might actually have benefits with controlling braking force necessary.

[Omotesando]

Actually this whole Braking fiasco thing we're having, reminds me of Barrichello when he first started driving the Hondas.

He kept complaining about the lack of brakes on his Honda, as he said he brakes harder than Jenson. They actually have different brands of brakes on their RA106 now.

I don't normally brake hard anyway, but after my own experience with pot-holes and ABS as well as what others have experienced, I had to try emergency braking at 10/10ths to know the limits. The answer is, its not very good at all :(

[Chris_F]

If the ABS is engaging, that means the braking force of the stock pads are exceeding the grip of your tyres. So I'd say it's the tyres.

Yea that's true, but if the pads are pulsing aggressively and the compound is known to leave residue under hard braking, there may be a chance that in each successive pulse the braking force of the pads is weakened and no longer adequate to lock up the tyres? Just theorising/throwing up an idea (not literally lol)


The surface of a race track is many many times better than that of a street. There are almost no cracks, bitumen wearing out, rough spots, etc. So it is mroe difficult to lose traction on the track. What tyres did Matell and Baboo run? I'd bet it was not the stock Dunlop 2050m's.

On wakefield, the only place where you hard brake is a tight 50km/h corner which you approach at about 120km/h. Even with stock pads and the oem Dunlops, I was not able to engage ABS in that situation of hard braking.

I've heard QR isn't the best track in the world, but still a valid point :p

I'm pretty sure matell tracked a few times with the stock 16" rims and stock tyres and once with stock 16" 300zx rims with semi's, and if hes out there again itll be on 18" ce28n's. We'd need to ask people that have experienced this problem before and changed the pads or tyres to know for sure. One thing i know though is that the stock pads ARE shit.

Hmm i wouldn't really know if they needed to activate the abs or anything, and the situations are really different and on the track you'd have VSA off anyway..

hmm.. weird problem really

[yfin]

I had nearly full braking pressure, and my tyres fully warmed up for maximum traction. During my braking test, the ABS and I also felt the EBD was nearly on for the whole time and my stopping distance was SO LONG, it was impossibly dangerous. I would say it braked around 30-40% longer than what it should do from X5Xkph for a 1400KG car. And the G-Force generated was nowhere near 1G to 1.1G not even until the last 10 metres, the ABS just kept pulsing and pulsing none stop for the whole time.
This is not really a braking thread - but have you seen the article a while back - I think it was in Wheels testing safety features of many average cars (not really sports cars). It included the BMW 330 and the Mazda 6. I can't remember the exact figures but the Euro did quite well in the emergency braking - and if I remember correctly was 1st place in the wet braking (and in the top 3 or so for dry). So if it is as good as the BMW 330 in the wet - not sure how it is 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.

Tobster - any update on contacting Honda about this?

[aaronng]

Yea that's true, but if the pads are pulsing aggressively and the compound is known to leave residue under hard braking, there may be a chance that in each successive pulse the braking force of the pads is weakened and no longer adequate to lock up the tyres? Just theorising/throwing up an idea (not literally lol)
While the Euro's pad is prone to leaving deposits, it does so when your rotors are hot after a hard brake and you leave your foot on the brake pedal so that the hot pad contacts with the hot rotors. It shouldn't leave deposits under ABS.




I've heard QR isn't the best track in the world, but still a valid point :p

I'm pretty sure matell tracked a few times with the stock 16" rims and stock tyres and once with stock 16" 300zx rims with semi's, and if hes out there again itll be on 18" ce28n's. We'd need to ask people that have experienced this problem before and changed the pads or tyres to know for sure. One thing i know though is that the stock pads ARE shit.

Hmm i wouldn't really know if they needed to activate the abs or anything, and the situations are really different and on the track you'd have VSA off anyway..

hmm.. weird problem really
I agree the stock pads are shit. I was out for 3 x 30 minute sessions and I literally did not have any more braking force after the second session. In fact, I did not regain braking performance even with a brake fluid change... until the following month when I pulled the pads out to sand them down.

BTW, ABS is not dependent on VSA. VSA is dependent on ABS though. VSA only comes into play when you lose traction or when you are understeering, not when you are braking hard.

[aaronng]

I'm running stock Bridgestone tyres on my 17" Rims on the Lux with around 35-36 pounds of tyre pressure.

As I mentioned numerous times in previous post already, usually the best way to solve ABS braking distance problem is to first change the tyres.

However, one must ask. When my stock 17" Bridgestone tyres that are still relatively grippy, doesn't work with the ABS as a combination, then isn't there a design fault or calibration problem?

WHY SHOULD I TRY EXPERIMENTING WITH AFTERMARKET TYRES?

WHY DOESN'T my stock tyre and brake combo on the normal road, generate the correct braking G-Force that is apparent in other cars?

As for tracks, they are obviously more rubbered in and the surface is different, they do grip a bit better.

Although whether you're engaging ABS or not on a track might have to do with driver skills as well - afterall most people aren't or can't drive even 8/10ths on a track, so its not near the limit of the car.

During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about.

Brake pads wise - its more complicated too. The stock pads actually grip quite well at certain street speeds especially when cold. Aftermarket pads might have the character of having more 'final' braking friction but in between 0% - 100% braking pressure applied, it should have much better modulation control possible. As such, changing to aftermarket pads and braking at 70% effort might actually have benefits with controlling braking force necessary.
I know the stock Dunlops are not good. Not sure about the Bridgestones as I haven't tried them out in hard braking. I agree though that a stock car should provide sufficient braking force with stock pads and stock tyres, with or without engaging ABS while stopping the car within a good distance.

The stock pads have good initial grip when cold because of the large calipers and rotors, and that the pads are the abrasive type (compared to the adhesive type that need warming up). But once the pad gets hot, the pad material does not retain the same level of stiffness and abrasiveness when cold and in that sense, the stock pads are not good. It can't withstand much heat and when it does heat up, it leaves deposits on the rotor.

When applying the brakes, the best way is to get your foot on the brake pedal depressed partially and then pressed down hard all the way. If you slam your foot from the air down on to the brake pedal, it will surely lock up the tyres and engage ABS.

[Chris_F]

While the Euro's pad is prone to leaving deposits, it does so when your rotors are hot after a hard brake and you leave your foot on the brake pedal so that the hot pad contacts with the hot rotors. It shouldn't leave deposits under ABS.

Yea i've read about the heat causing the deposits aswell, it just got me thinking if heat can affect the pads like that maybe the pulsing of the abs is causing them to underperform in some way? I'm not sure how brake compounds work... but it'd just really suck if it was the VSA/ABS system that was at fault here - very dangerous in emergencies.



I agree the stock pads are shit. I was out for 3 x 30 minute sessions and I literally did not have any more braking force after the second session. In fact, I did not regain braking performance even with a brake fluid change... until the following month when I pulled the pads out to sand them down.

BTW, ABS is not dependent on VSA. VSA is dependent on ABS though. VSA only comes into play when you lose traction or when you are understeering, not when you are braking hard.

haha! I'm not game enough to do any serious track sessions with the stock pads for that very reason, losing the ability to brake at high speeds is like a phobia for me. time for some new pads then?

hmm, so its not possible that VSA could be triggered while abs is working? I was thinking that on an uneven surface if the car senses a loss of traction while in the middle of an ABS pulse (not sure if thats possible) maybe the car will switch between ABS and VSA and causing the ABS to work like shite?

[EuroDude]

Personally I find the Euro's brakes quite good, although you do need to push down on the brake pedal a bit harder than other cars.

But the major problem is ABS/VSA, its simply way too sensitive and the brake pedal can sink to the ground resulting in almost no braking at all in emergency situations. (I wont go into explaining it all again in detail)

In other words, if Honda tweaked the ABS/VSA system, that would solve most of the issues mentioned.

[ZEi20T]

most of these features on cars are made for people that arent really good at driving. so they are uber sensitive because they dont want people to get out of control in the first place :P

as for the ABS, ive owned my Euro for all of 4 hours now and ABS hasnt kicked in once. and yes ive done some hard driving (to make sure all is good) on smooth and rough surfaces. however the rotors are warped slightly :( but before i took delivery. ill be changing rotors and pads in a few months anyway.

[EuroDude]

Yep it greatly depends on the tyres. I assume you have non-stock tyres on the car? The original tyres are very average. My original Dunlop SP2050's caused ABS to trigger very often (a couple of times a week), but ever since I went to the 17" Yoko C-Drives a month or so ago, I can hardly recall ABS triggering since Ive had them. I think they triggered once last week, but that was over a very poor road surface, and it wasnt a big drama - ABS recovery was as per normal.

[aaronng]

hmm, so its not possible that VSA could be triggered while abs is working? I was thinking that on an uneven surface if the car senses a loss of traction while in the middle of an ABS pulse (not sure if thats possible) maybe the car will switch between ABS and VSA and causing the ABS to work like shite?
I'm assuming that those complaining about the ABS stopping distance are experiencing it on a straight road. If you lock your wheels when your car is goind straight, VSA should engage (no VSA light flashing). But if you enter a corner too fast, you brake and turn at the same time, VSA activates and pulses the ABS (VSA light also flashes). In this 2nd case of entering a corner, the car does not slow down much but it does regain grip very quickly (I tried it when in the wet).

[Omotesando]

Personally I find the Euro's brakes quite good, although you do need to push down on the brake pedal a bit harder than other cars.

But the major problem is ABS/VSA, its simply way too sensitive and the brake pedal can sink to the ground resulting in almost no braking at all in emergency situations. (I wont go into explaining it all again in detail)

In other words, if Honda tweaked the ABS/VSA system, that would solve most of the issues mentioned.


Yes agree with you there.

As long as the ABS isn't activated, the car's braking is actually quite good, but only at lower speed. ABS is the major problem. You don't know what to expect or when to expect any potholes whilst emergency braking... which sometimes triggers ABS at the wrong times.

Of course, my ABS doesn't activate that often, as I drive rather safely - I've not had an accident unless i.e. some idiot just switched two lanes at once and hit me. One of the other reason is because I always try to explore the limits of the car beforehand, so I know what to expect at 9/10th or 10/10th.

When I tried it at X5X kph I suppose I was asking too much from the car.

When doing it at 100kph the car braked very fair indeed, provided the road was smooth. I guess the brake pads have fairly good initial bite.

I swear that the stock brake pads are like some of the metallic brake pads I've used in another car before. They brake quite well for the first 80% brake pedal pressure, but the last 20% there is nothing. And the ABS already kicking in at random times, doesn't help the situation either :(

[Omotesando]

This is not really a braking thread - but have you seen the article a while back - I think it was in Wheels testing safety features of many average cars (not really sports cars). It included the BMW 330 and the Mazda 6. I can't remember the exact figures but the Euro did quite well in the emergency braking - and if I remember correctly was 1st place in the wet braking (and in the top 3 or so for dry). So if it is as good as the BMW 330 in the wet - not sure how it is 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.


I was testing it at X5X kph.
At the speed, the braking performance was 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars at that distance, I thought I wrote it clear.

At normal speed up to 100kph braking however - and I just tested it again today, the braking was actually quite good on the occasion that ABS didn't kick in. When it did however especially slightly downhill, it wasn't very predictable, too many pulsations.

Sorry I know this isn't the braking thread but its linked to the last thread, and I wasn't sure if I should open a new one or revive an old one.



When applying the brakes, the best way is to get your foot on the brake pedal depressed partially and then pressed down hard all the way. If you slam your foot from the air down on to the brake pedal, it will surely lock up the tyres and engage ABS.

Yeah that's the best way to brake for sure, but sometimes in an emergency reaction time is everything I guess if I could do exactly as we plan all the time, we wouldn't have an accident.. :(

Even though I had infact already mentioned this
"During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about."

[Hoyle]

Don't forget the Euro also has Emergency Braking or some such thing, so when the car detects an emergency stop (ie. you slam your foot on the brake), it applies 100% max braking force for you. I guess putting your foot gently on the brake first might bypass this system so you have more braking control.

I really don't think a stock Euro is designed to be used at 150km/h, you'd be better off reconfiguring the car if you want to drive at that speed.

[yfin]

Any further posts about braking performance should be made here please -

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49660

You will see the relevant posts above have been copied across.

Lets keep this thread for the issue Tobster raised about the VSA reset question.