[EURO] Braking performance issues

[Tobster]

****yfin edit - I have created this thread to move posts relating to euro braking issues raised in another thread. off topic to the other thread...***

[Omotesando]

**yfin edit - getting to relevant part...*

The other thing is, I don't understand why you think VSA is related to the other ABS thread. MY05 Euro suffers exactly the same ABS woes as what was described on the other thread. VSA should be considered separately anyhow from ABS, even though they are part of the full safety package. When VSA is off, the ABS/EBD/Brake Assist are still fully working.

Its just a very poorly calibrated ABS system.

I was doing some testing recently, doing around a bit over X5Xkph (use your imagination, note: its not as much as you think) then stepped on the brakes. Jesus - both the brakes and the ABS system on the EURO Accord suck at high speed.

I had nearly full braking pressure, and my tyres fully warmed up for maximum traction. During my braking test, the ABS and I also felt the EBD was nearly on for the whole time and my stopping distance was SO LONG, it was impossibly dangerous. I would say it braked around 30-40% longer than what it should do from X5Xkph for a 1400KG car. And the G-Force generated was nowhere near 1G to 1.1G not even until the last 10 metres, the ABS just kept pulsing and pulsing none stop for the whole time.

I honestly could not believe how bad the brakes work. Usually if I brake from normal speed, it works ok enough but I know from my experience with always testing cars at the limit (so I know what to expect in emergencies) that the braking force generated is honestly very low, just from the G-force difference alone.

I'm pretty sure I'll change both tyres and brake pads the next time. As least inbetween the ABS pulses, its actually braking the car.... and hopefully the extra tyre grip means the wheel sensors won't exaggeratedly activate ABS for every little bit of tyre slip. :(

[aaronng]

What tyres are you running now Omotesando?

We need someone with proper tyres, not the stock low-grade tyres (both 16 and 17") to try out the ABS.

[Chris_F]

good post Omotesando. I think the euro's stock pads just aren't up to the task, it's already a relatively well known issue that at high temp/hard braking the pads start leaving residue on the rotors (which is why people report a feeling of the rotors being warped).

Matell and baboo have both tracked their euros with aftermarket pads (mugen and endless NA-R respectively) and in my brief chats with them they've never mentioned overly poor breaking performance after the straight at Queensland raceway (which would easily see the car over 150kph).

Omotesando, i think it'd be interesting to see how the car performs in a similar test but with upgraded pads - keeping the stock tyres. The stock calipers/rotors should be more than adequate and I wouldn't be suprised if the problem with ABS was a result of the shit-house stock pads underperforming in high stress braking conditions.

[aaronng]

good post Omotesando. I think the euro's stock pads just aren't up to the task, it's already a relatively well known issue that at high temp/hard braking the pads start leaving residue on the rotors (which is why people report a feeling of the rotors being warped).
If the ABS is engaging, that means the braking force of the stock pads are exceeding the grip of your tyres. So I'd say it's the tyres.



Matell and baboo have both tracked their euros with aftermarket pads (mugen and endless NA-R respectively) and in my brief chats with them they've never mentioned overly poor breaking performance after the straight at Queensland raceway (which would easily see the car over 150kph).

The surface of a race track is many many times better than that of a street. There are almost no cracks, bitumen wearing out, rough spots, etc. So it is mroe difficult to lose traction on the track. What tyres did Matell and Baboo run? I'd bet it was not the stock Dunlop 2050m's.

On wakefield, the only place where you hard brake is a tight 50km/h corner which you approach at about 120km/h. Even with stock pads and the oem Dunlops, I was not able to engage ABS in that situation of hard braking.

[Omotesando]

I'm running stock Bridgestone tyres on my 17" Rims on the Lux with around 35-36 pounds of tyre pressure.

As I mentioned numerous times in previous post already, usually the best way to solve ABS braking distance problem is to first change the tyres.

However, one must ask. When my stock 17" Bridgestone tyres that are still relatively grippy, doesn't work with the ABS as a combination, then isn't there a design fault or calibration problem?

WHY SHOULD I TRY EXPERIMENTING WITH AFTERMARKET TYRES?

WHY DOESN'T my stock tyre and brake combo on the normal road, generate the correct braking G-Force that is apparent in other cars?

As for tracks, they are obviously more rubbered in and the surface is different, they do grip a bit better.

Although whether you're engaging ABS or not on a track might have to do with driver skills as well - afterall most people aren't or can't drive even 8/10ths on a track, so its not near the limit of the car.

During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about.


Brake pads wise - its more complicated too. The stock pads actually grip quite well at certain street speeds especially when cold. Aftermarket pads might have the character of having more 'final' braking friction but in between 0% - 100% braking pressure applied, it should have much better modulation control possible. As such, changing to aftermarket pads and braking at 70% effort might actually have benefits with controlling braking force necessary.

[Omotesando]

Actually this whole Braking fiasco thing we're having, reminds me of Barrichello when he first started driving the Hondas.

He kept complaining about the lack of brakes on his Honda, as he said he brakes harder than Jenson. They actually have different brands of brakes on their RA106 now.

I don't normally brake hard anyway, but after my own experience with pot-holes and ABS as well as what others have experienced, I had to try emergency braking at 10/10ths to know the limits. The answer is, its not very good at all :(

[Chris_F]

If the ABS is engaging, that means the braking force of the stock pads are exceeding the grip of your tyres. So I'd say it's the tyres.

Yea that's true, but if the pads are pulsing aggressively and the compound is known to leave residue under hard braking, there may be a chance that in each successive pulse the braking force of the pads is weakened and no longer adequate to lock up the tyres? Just theorising/throwing up an idea (not literally lol)


The surface of a race track is many many times better than that of a street. There are almost no cracks, bitumen wearing out, rough spots, etc. So it is mroe difficult to lose traction on the track. What tyres did Matell and Baboo run? I'd bet it was not the stock Dunlop 2050m's.

On wakefield, the only place where you hard brake is a tight 50km/h corner which you approach at about 120km/h. Even with stock pads and the oem Dunlops, I was not able to engage ABS in that situation of hard braking.

I've heard QR isn't the best track in the world, but still a valid point :p

I'm pretty sure matell tracked a few times with the stock 16" rims and stock tyres and once with stock 16" 300zx rims with semi's, and if hes out there again itll be on 18" ce28n's. We'd need to ask people that have experienced this problem before and changed the pads or tyres to know for sure. One thing i know though is that the stock pads ARE shit.

Hmm i wouldn't really know if they needed to activate the abs or anything, and the situations are really different and on the track you'd have VSA off anyway..

hmm.. weird problem really

[yfin]

I had nearly full braking pressure, and my tyres fully warmed up for maximum traction. During my braking test, the ABS and I also felt the EBD was nearly on for the whole time and my stopping distance was SO LONG, it was impossibly dangerous. I would say it braked around 30-40% longer than what it should do from X5Xkph for a 1400KG car. And the G-Force generated was nowhere near 1G to 1.1G not even until the last 10 metres, the ABS just kept pulsing and pulsing none stop for the whole time.
This is not really a braking thread - but have you seen the article a while back - I think it was in Wheels testing safety features of many average cars (not really sports cars). It included the BMW 330 and the Mazda 6. I can't remember the exact figures but the Euro did quite well in the emergency braking - and if I remember correctly was 1st place in the wet braking (and in the top 3 or so for dry). So if it is as good as the BMW 330 in the wet - not sure how it is 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.

Tobster - any update on contacting Honda about this?

[aaronng]

Yea that's true, but if the pads are pulsing aggressively and the compound is known to leave residue under hard braking, there may be a chance that in each successive pulse the braking force of the pads is weakened and no longer adequate to lock up the tyres? Just theorising/throwing up an idea (not literally lol)
While the Euro's pad is prone to leaving deposits, it does so when your rotors are hot after a hard brake and you leave your foot on the brake pedal so that the hot pad contacts with the hot rotors. It shouldn't leave deposits under ABS.




I've heard QR isn't the best track in the world, but still a valid point :p

I'm pretty sure matell tracked a few times with the stock 16" rims and stock tyres and once with stock 16" 300zx rims with semi's, and if hes out there again itll be on 18" ce28n's. We'd need to ask people that have experienced this problem before and changed the pads or tyres to know for sure. One thing i know though is that the stock pads ARE shit.

Hmm i wouldn't really know if they needed to activate the abs or anything, and the situations are really different and on the track you'd have VSA off anyway..

hmm.. weird problem really
I agree the stock pads are shit. I was out for 3 x 30 minute sessions and I literally did not have any more braking force after the second session. In fact, I did not regain braking performance even with a brake fluid change... until the following month when I pulled the pads out to sand them down.

BTW, ABS is not dependent on VSA. VSA is dependent on ABS though. VSA only comes into play when you lose traction or when you are understeering, not when you are braking hard.

[aaronng]

I'm running stock Bridgestone tyres on my 17" Rims on the Lux with around 35-36 pounds of tyre pressure.

As I mentioned numerous times in previous post already, usually the best way to solve ABS braking distance problem is to first change the tyres.

However, one must ask. When my stock 17" Bridgestone tyres that are still relatively grippy, doesn't work with the ABS as a combination, then isn't there a design fault or calibration problem?

WHY SHOULD I TRY EXPERIMENTING WITH AFTERMARKET TYRES?

WHY DOESN'T my stock tyre and brake combo on the normal road, generate the correct braking G-Force that is apparent in other cars?

As for tracks, they are obviously more rubbered in and the surface is different, they do grip a bit better.

Although whether you're engaging ABS or not on a track might have to do with driver skills as well - afterall most people aren't or can't drive even 8/10ths on a track, so its not near the limit of the car.

During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about.

Brake pads wise - its more complicated too. The stock pads actually grip quite well at certain street speeds especially when cold. Aftermarket pads might have the character of having more 'final' braking friction but in between 0% - 100% braking pressure applied, it should have much better modulation control possible. As such, changing to aftermarket pads and braking at 70% effort might actually have benefits with controlling braking force necessary.
I know the stock Dunlops are not good. Not sure about the Bridgestones as I haven't tried them out in hard braking. I agree though that a stock car should provide sufficient braking force with stock pads and stock tyres, with or without engaging ABS while stopping the car within a good distance.

The stock pads have good initial grip when cold because of the large calipers and rotors, and that the pads are the abrasive type (compared to the adhesive type that need warming up). But once the pad gets hot, the pad material does not retain the same level of stiffness and abrasiveness when cold and in that sense, the stock pads are not good. It can't withstand much heat and when it does heat up, it leaves deposits on the rotor.

When applying the brakes, the best way is to get your foot on the brake pedal depressed partially and then pressed down hard all the way. If you slam your foot from the air down on to the brake pedal, it will surely lock up the tyres and engage ABS.

[Chris_F]

While the Euro's pad is prone to leaving deposits, it does so when your rotors are hot after a hard brake and you leave your foot on the brake pedal so that the hot pad contacts with the hot rotors. It shouldn't leave deposits under ABS.

Yea i've read about the heat causing the deposits aswell, it just got me thinking if heat can affect the pads like that maybe the pulsing of the abs is causing them to underperform in some way? I'm not sure how brake compounds work... but it'd just really suck if it was the VSA/ABS system that was at fault here - very dangerous in emergencies.



I agree the stock pads are shit. I was out for 3 x 30 minute sessions and I literally did not have any more braking force after the second session. In fact, I did not regain braking performance even with a brake fluid change... until the following month when I pulled the pads out to sand them down.

BTW, ABS is not dependent on VSA. VSA is dependent on ABS though. VSA only comes into play when you lose traction or when you are understeering, not when you are braking hard.

haha! I'm not game enough to do any serious track sessions with the stock pads for that very reason, losing the ability to brake at high speeds is like a phobia for me. time for some new pads then?

hmm, so its not possible that VSA could be triggered while abs is working? I was thinking that on an uneven surface if the car senses a loss of traction while in the middle of an ABS pulse (not sure if thats possible) maybe the car will switch between ABS and VSA and causing the ABS to work like shite?

[EuroDude]

Personally I find the Euro's brakes quite good, although you do need to push down on the brake pedal a bit harder than other cars.

But the major problem is ABS/VSA, its simply way too sensitive and the brake pedal can sink to the ground resulting in almost no braking at all in emergency situations. (I wont go into explaining it all again in detail)

In other words, if Honda tweaked the ABS/VSA system, that would solve most of the issues mentioned.

[ZEi20T]

most of these features on cars are made for people that arent really good at driving. so they are uber sensitive because they dont want people to get out of control in the first place :P

as for the ABS, ive owned my Euro for all of 4 hours now and ABS hasnt kicked in once. and yes ive done some hard driving (to make sure all is good) on smooth and rough surfaces. however the rotors are warped slightly :( but before i took delivery. ill be changing rotors and pads in a few months anyway.

[EuroDude]

Yep it greatly depends on the tyres. I assume you have non-stock tyres on the car? The original tyres are very average. My original Dunlop SP2050's caused ABS to trigger very often (a couple of times a week), but ever since I went to the 17" Yoko C-Drives a month or so ago, I can hardly recall ABS triggering since Ive had them. I think they triggered once last week, but that was over a very poor road surface, and it wasnt a big drama - ABS recovery was as per normal.

[aaronng]

hmm, so its not possible that VSA could be triggered while abs is working? I was thinking that on an uneven surface if the car senses a loss of traction while in the middle of an ABS pulse (not sure if thats possible) maybe the car will switch between ABS and VSA and causing the ABS to work like shite?
I'm assuming that those complaining about the ABS stopping distance are experiencing it on a straight road. If you lock your wheels when your car is goind straight, VSA should engage (no VSA light flashing). But if you enter a corner too fast, you brake and turn at the same time, VSA activates and pulses the ABS (VSA light also flashes). In this 2nd case of entering a corner, the car does not slow down much but it does regain grip very quickly (I tried it when in the wet).

[Omotesando]

Personally I find the Euro's brakes quite good, although you do need to push down on the brake pedal a bit harder than other cars.

But the major problem is ABS/VSA, its simply way too sensitive and the brake pedal can sink to the ground resulting in almost no braking at all in emergency situations. (I wont go into explaining it all again in detail)

In other words, if Honda tweaked the ABS/VSA system, that would solve most of the issues mentioned.


Yes agree with you there.

As long as the ABS isn't activated, the car's braking is actually quite good, but only at lower speed. ABS is the major problem. You don't know what to expect or when to expect any potholes whilst emergency braking... which sometimes triggers ABS at the wrong times.

Of course, my ABS doesn't activate that often, as I drive rather safely - I've not had an accident unless i.e. some idiot just switched two lanes at once and hit me. One of the other reason is because I always try to explore the limits of the car beforehand, so I know what to expect at 9/10th or 10/10th.

When I tried it at X5X kph I suppose I was asking too much from the car.

When doing it at 100kph the car braked very fair indeed, provided the road was smooth. I guess the brake pads have fairly good initial bite.

I swear that the stock brake pads are like some of the metallic brake pads I've used in another car before. They brake quite well for the first 80% brake pedal pressure, but the last 20% there is nothing. And the ABS already kicking in at random times, doesn't help the situation either :(

[Omotesando]

This is not really a braking thread - but have you seen the article a while back - I think it was in Wheels testing safety features of many average cars (not really sports cars). It included the BMW 330 and the Mazda 6. I can't remember the exact figures but the Euro did quite well in the emergency braking - and if I remember correctly was 1st place in the wet braking (and in the top 3 or so for dry). So if it is as good as the BMW 330 in the wet - not sure how it is 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.


I was testing it at X5X kph.
At the speed, the braking performance was 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars at that distance, I thought I wrote it clear.

At normal speed up to 100kph braking however - and I just tested it again today, the braking was actually quite good on the occasion that ABS didn't kick in. When it did however especially slightly downhill, it wasn't very predictable, too many pulsations.

Sorry I know this isn't the braking thread but its linked to the last thread, and I wasn't sure if I should open a new one or revive an old one.



When applying the brakes, the best way is to get your foot on the brake pedal depressed partially and then pressed down hard all the way. If you slam your foot from the air down on to the brake pedal, it will surely lock up the tyres and engage ABS.

Yeah that's the best way to brake for sure, but sometimes in an emergency reaction time is everything I guess if I could do exactly as we plan all the time, we wouldn't have an accident.. :(

Even though I had infact already mentioned this
"During emergencies however, I'll be braking at 10/10ths after loading up my front suspension, so that is the part that I'm worried about."

[Hoyle]

Don't forget the Euro also has Emergency Braking or some such thing, so when the car detects an emergency stop (ie. you slam your foot on the brake), it applies 100% max braking force for you. I guess putting your foot gently on the brake first might bypass this system so you have more braking control.

I really don't think a stock Euro is designed to be used at 150km/h, you'd be better off reconfiguring the car if you want to drive at that speed.

[yfin]

I really don't think a stock Euro is designed to be used at 150km/h, you'd be better off reconfiguring the car if you want to drive at that speed.

Why not? Do you think the CL9 sold in Germany with autobahns, for example, is significantly different to the Australian model?

[aaronng]

While watching the Car Show today where they were fanging an Audi RS4 around a track, I noticed that the ABS on that car allowed the tyres to lock for about 1/2 second before activating ABS. After grip was regained, it repeated the process. So when the RS4 was braking hard, you could hear it go screech-silence-screech-silence-screech and so on. Different from the Euro where ABS comes on even before any tyre screeching and it stays on until you release the brake pedal. So yup, it's too sensitive.

[Chris_F]

While watching the Car Show today where they were fanging an Audi RS4 around a track, I noticed that the ABS on that car allowed the tyres to lock for about 1/2 second before activating ABS. After grip was regained, it repeated the process. So when the RS4 was braking hard, you could hear it go screech-silence-screech-silence-screech and so on. Different from the Euro where ABS comes on even before any tyre screeching and it stays on until you release the brake pedal. So yup, it's too sensitive.

yea true, i notice vsa kicks in on the euro even before an audible tyre squeel is heard aswell.

[Omotesando]

While watching the Car Show today where they were fanging an Audi RS4 around a track, I noticed that the ABS on that car allowed the tyres to lock for about 1/2 second before activating ABS. After grip was regained, it repeated the process. So when the RS4 was braking hard, you could hear it go screech-silence-screech-silence-screech and so on. Different from the Euro where ABS comes on even before any tyre screeching and it stays on until you release the brake pedal. So yup, it's too sensitive.

That's a good observation from that video.

Perhaps when under braking, the front tyre is being loaded and compressed more into the ground and produces more grip. If ABS won't let you build the braking until the 'screeching point' I guess its being too intelligent? :P

Actually I do remember one Best Motoring testing an NSX Type R versus some porsches. During the braking test measurement - it said something like, because it is lighter, it brakes much easier from high speed into corners. However, at the last leg of the braking the NSX actually takes longer to brake when ABS is on. I think it is a similar thing. They recommended Honda to change the calibration if I remember correctly. I have that video somewhere, might rip some images when I have time. :p

[curik]

I read an american motoring magazine about comparisons among Jetta GLI, TSX, and some other sedans, and surprisingly the TSX is one of the worst in term of braking performance. The TSX uses 215 17" tyres I think. It brakes about 30 feet longer than other competitors. 300mm and 260mm discs are not quite enough for a heavy car like the TSX. As an example the 3 series use bigger discs, even mazda3 and civic are using discs about the same as the euro. So why isnt honda putting in 300mm 290mm for an example instead?

[Omotesando]

I read an american motoring magazine about comparisons among Jetta GLI, TSX, and some other sedans, and surprisingly the TSX is one of the worst in term of braking performance. The TSX uses 215 17" tyres I think. It brakes about 30 feet longer than other competitors. 300mm and 260mm discs are not quite enough for a heavy car like the TSX. As an example the 3 series use bigger discs, even mazda3 and civic are using discs about the same as the euro. So why isnt honda putting in 300mm 290mm for an example instead?

Very interesting.
30 feet is a lot though, that's like a few car spaces.
Do you know if they were testing it from say 60mph-0?


I have tested mine Euro doing 100kph-0kph and seriously it braked quite normal and well, as I mentioned. But doing it at a different speed, the car just did not want to stop at all.... I'm talking about like 50m more than I expected for that speed.

I know some people said I shouldn't be using the car at that speed, but I TESTED it under very safe condition in a controlled environment anyway. Just in case one day, say I was overtaking a slow moving truck on the freeway/highway going slightly over the speed limit but I needed to suddenly brake again. I know I won't drive at those speeds, but sometimes we drive outside the normal range and I'm just planning ahead.

Do you know which issue and which mag it was?

It seems opposite to what YFIN's article in terms of braking performance. I wonder if the road service and tyres or just the different competition gave it a very different result? :confused:

[curik]

Actually it was a 70-0 test from car and driver

At the test track, the Jetta surprised us again, running up acceleration and braking numbers that were distinctly better than those of the preproduction edition tested in October: 0 to 60 in 6.4 seconds, the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 93 mph, and 70 to 0 in a phenomenal 154 feet, a testimonial for the most aggressive tires in this group (Bridgestone Potenza RE050As, 225/40-18)

So the TSX suffered in the instrumented testing. With the exception of 30-to-50 and 50-to-70, it was dead last in all the acceleration runs, and a rather distant last at that. It managed to place fourth in the braking test at 177 feet from 70 mph, three feet sooner than the Honda, the penalty for those smooth-riding Michelin HX MXM4 all-season tires. And the modest grip of the Michelins (0.80 on the skidpad), plus a shortage of torque, relegated the agile little TSX to last in the lane change.

[Omotesando]

Actually it was a 70-0 test from car and driver

At the test track, the Jetta surprised us again, running up acceleration and braking numbers that were distinctly better than those of the preproduction edition tested in October: 0 to 60 in 6.4 seconds, the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 93 mph, and 70 to 0 in a phenomenal 154 feet, a testimonial for the most aggressive tires in this group (Bridgestone Potenza RE050As, 225/40-18)

So the TSX suffered in the instrumented testing. With the exception of 30-to-50 and 50-to-70, it was dead last in all the acceleration runs, and a rather distant last at that. It managed to place fourth in the braking test at 177 feet from 70 mph, three feet sooner than the Honda, the penalty for those smooth-riding Michelin HX MXM4 all-season tires. And the modest grip of the Michelins (0.80 on the skidpad), plus a shortage of torque, relegated the agile little TSX to last in the lane change.

Thanks Curik for digging up the figures and comments.

Sorry - with the 'Honda' mentioned, which car is that? Because it sounds like another Honda performed even worst that the Acura TSX (kinda our CL9 Euro Accord) although with Michelin all-season tires?

Braking test from 70mph-0mph - its kind of weird but useful.

My Euro Lux use different tyres anyway, so that test doesn't really support what I said I guess.. I just also want to say that in Dry Braking Distance - as long as the tyres aren't too cheapo read: made in China and are relatively new, they don't actually make as huge a difference as one might believe in dry braking distance - unless its some hard compound that they give you on rental cars. (Should still pull up 1G+ in braking easily.) Of course its apparent, but compared to Wet braking which is completely another story...

[curik]

And one more thing. Why does the euro have TINY rear discs? I mean even the 06 civic has the same size. Camry (270mm) , 3 series (300mm) , mazda3 and 6 (280mm) even have bigger rear discs.

[aaronng]

I've got another review from Automobilemag.com. In the 70-0 mph, the TSX does 183ft and a peak braking of 0.96 g. Pretty poor but since it did the same distance as the IS300 which had all-seasons, I'm agree to look at only aussie mag braking tests of the Euro and not the TSX.

[curik]

What a cheapskate honda!! Slam some bigger discs for the euros will ya. And FYI, the Jazz Vti-S in asia are equipped with rear discs not some obselete drums!!

[aaronng]

What a cheapskate honda!! Slam some bigger discs for the euros will ya. And FYI, the Jazz Vti-S in asia are equipped with rear discs not some obselete drums!!
If you put bigger discs and calipers on the Euro, all you get is better initial bite. Total stopping distance will improve but not by much. We need better tyres and better brake pads to match.

[curik]

i am using hankook k104 235/35/19 tyres and I still think the brake is not powerful enough. So it's the pads then?

[aaronng]

i am using hankook k104 235/35/19 tyres and I still think the brake is not powerful enough. So it's the pads then?
It's because of your heavy rims and tyres! Yeah, get better pads first. If you are feeling rich, go for a big brake kit (consists of 4-6 piston calipers, rotors and pads).

[curik]

but then the brake bias is ruined unless if i go for F/R BBK which is $$$$. All right I might give the Endless VN9500 pads a shot

[aaronng]

but then the brake bias is ruined unless if i go for F/R BBK which is $$$$. All right I might give the Endless VN9500 pads a shot
If you go both front and rear BBK that matches, then it should be fine. BTW, your stock brake bias doesn't really apply anymore with the large rims. I'd go SSY or SSS. VN9500 is just 2 steps up from stock...

[curik]

SSY or SSS? I dont want my wheels covered with dust and turn into the color of your fur in 1 week. Haha

[aaronng]

Black rims on a grey Euro is sexy.

[yfin]

Here are the 70mph to 0 figures (in feet) from the Car and Driver Article - Feb 2006

* Acura TSX - 177
* Honda Accord V6 - 180
* Mazda 6MPS - 155
* Pontiac C6 GTP - 167
* Volkswagon Jetta GLI - 154

Here are some other 70-0 figures in the same edition:

* BMW 120d - 156
* 2007 Mercedes s550 - 172
* Lexus LS430 - 180
* BMW 750 - 165
* Chevrolet Tahoe - 201
* Mazda 6 Sportswagon - 185
* Subaru Forrester XT - 182
* Chrysler PT Cruiser - 183
* Bentley Continental Flying Spur - 167
* Porsche Cayenne S - 181 on stock tyres (with high performance 20" tyres - 165)

Some interesting figures there and it suggests the TSX is average in the field for 70-0 braking - not great but not poor either.

Many of the US owners say the Michelin Pilot tyres on the TSX are very average. Swapping to some sticky rubber makes a huge difference in stopping distances - as can be seen with the Porsche Cayenne figures. A change to wider and stickier rubber dropped the stopping distance by 16 feet.

Does anyone have that Wheels article I was talking about earlier? I am sure the Euro Lux was first in wet braking for that particular test.

[aaronng]

It's the tyres. I have another US article with the 6 MPS. It got 171 ft using sport all season tyres. In the same test, the WRX with all season tyres also got 171 ft.

[curik]

It's the tyres. I have another US article with the 6 MPS. It got 171 ft using sport all season tyres. In the same test, the WRX with all season tyres also got 171 ft.

Your fur just doesnt have enough traction

[Chris_F]

Your fur just doesnt have enough traction

incase you didn't know... arronng is not a cat lol

but like the others have already mentioned tyres are so important as are pads... people go for BBK's for bling most of the time, the stock calipers and rotors should be more than enough

yfin, some interesting figures there... do you know how much lighter the standard euro is compared to a tsx (say base model non-navi)? I'd imagine the extra weight wouldn't help with the braking either

[aaronng]

I think the TSX weighs the same as the Euro Lux. The only difference is that the 04 and 05 had fog lights as an option and the HIDs are not auto-levelling.

2004-2005 (includes those sold in 2003) without satnav
Manual: 3230 lbs (1465 kg)
Automatic: 3318 lbs (1505 kg)

Satnav bumps the weight up by 5kg:
Manual with Navigation System: 3241 lbs (1470 kg)
Automatic with Navigation System: 3329 lbs (1510 kg)

From the specs of the 06 TSX, foglights are standard now.

We need a strip of tarmac that is not part of the public roads so that we can get together to test braking distances of a few Euros. :)

[Chris_F]

I think the TSX weighs the same as the Euro Lux. The only difference is that the 04 and 05 had fog lights as an option and the HIDs are not auto-levelling.

2004-2005 (includes those sold in 2003) without satnav
Manual: 3230 lbs (1465 kg)
Automatic: 3318 lbs (1505 kg)

Satnav bumps the weight up by 5kg:
Manual with Navigation System: 3241 lbs (1470 kg)
Automatic with Navigation System: 3329 lbs (1510 kg)

From the specs of the 06 TSX, foglights are standard now.

We need a strip of tarmac that is not part of the public roads so that we can get together to test braking distances of a few Euros. :)

wow i didn't think the tsx would get as heavy as 1500kg+... their poor k24a2 has a lot of fat to carry around i. 1465kg about 100kg heavier than what is quoted for the aus spec CL9 in standard trim and 35kg or so heavier than what is quoted for an automatic luxury euro.

[curik]

A strip of tarmac? I wish I had an airfield which can be converted into a track. And also all the cars will be handed to an independent adjudicator.

[aaronng]

wow i didn't think the tsx would get as heavy as 1500kg+... their poor k24a2 has a lot of fat to carry around i. 1465kg about 100kg heavier than what is quoted for the aus spec CL9 in standard trim and 35kg or so heavier than what is quoted for an automatic luxury euro.
That's why they get the 147kW k24a2 in the 04-05 and the 160kW (est) k24a2 in the 06. :)

[curik]

160kw!! that is about the same power as the euro-R with much more torque! This might also be the most powerful 2.4l in the world

[Chris_F]

That's why they get the 147kW k24a2 in the 04-05 and the 160kW (est) k24a2 in the 06. :)

true true... makes me wonder why the 06 tsx engine wasn't used in the 06 euroR, the extra torque would have helped that car with only a slight reduction in peak power

[Chris_F]

160kw!! that is about the same power as the euro-R with much more torque! This might also be the most powerful 2.4l in the world

hehe thats what i was thinking... but most powerful in the world? be cool if it was true though (assuming 4 cylinder N/A)

[curik]

i guess nothing comes close for a 2.4 I4. the Alfa romeo 2.3L makes 130Kw, probably that's all

[petsfact]

i had a taste of ABS today at only 30km/h, it does not stop the car at all luckily i had my steering all to the right if not my car will be gone.

at low speed the ABS should work like normal brake it should stop the car immediately instead of pulsing, the ABS on euro rely too much on driver's foot, it should take the travelling speed into account too.

I guess lots of euro owner up here owned S15 before and if they did drive really hard they should know. in S15 during low speed when ABS kick in it just stop the car from moving any further, you hear a loud bang and that's it the caliper bite the rotor hard and stop it from moving, but during high speed it pulse so the car won't lose control. Or maybe it's just because S15 has better caliper and brake pad [which i don't think so]

anyone reflect this to honda we all should get our ABS replace with new unit for free. :D <-- i am serious

[Omotesando]

It's the tyres. I have another US article with the 6 MPS. It got 171 ft using sport all season tyres. In the same test, the WRX with all season tyres also got 171 ft.

That's a bit of difference to the other article numbers wow. Were they tested by the same magazine, and/or on the same road or track or similar? What about tyre temperature preparations - did they test both cold and warm?

Actually why did they have 6 MPS coming with different tyre packages? :O

Anyway, assuming tyres being equal, the 6 MPS being 100+ Kg heavier and WRX with similar weight to Euro Accord still brakes better at only 70mph-0 at 171 feet.

The Euro Accord is around the 177 feet or 183 feet comparatively. That's a massive 6-12 feet difference at only roughly 121-121.5kph which is a realistic speed some of us occasionally arrive at and do go over say on a track.

As for the rear disc - the Euro is 60 front and 40 rear weight distribution from what I heard. Front braking force takes up roughly 70% and rear 30%. So I guess if adding the sums up, the rear disc and caliper is an okay size relative to the front? U know I'm starting to think I'm being too picky on the Euro Accord - it does do a lot of things right and better than other cars. May be I should be content with what it has... and just modify to suit :)

[yfin]

The Euro Accord is around the 177 feet or 183 feet comparatively.

You mean the TSX. As Chris noted - the TSX is quite a bit heavier than the Euro Accord and does run different tyres (and narrower when looking at the lux tyres).

And I think you are being picky - if a $200,000 Mercedes or Porsche Cayenne stops in 175 or so feet - why expect better from a Euro?

[Omotesando]

You mean the TSX. As Chris noted - the TSX is quite a bit heavier than the Euro Accord and does run different tyres (and narrower when looking at the lux tyres).

And I think you are being picky - if a $200,000 Mercedes or Porsche Cayenne stops in 175 or so feet - why expect better from a Euro?


Well since you mentioned the TSX being 'quite a bit heavier' if you'd actually compared Apples with Apples, the TSX with similar features like the Euro Accord Luxury, is roughly 1Kg difference. The Euro Accord Normal Spec is around 100Kg lighter at 1375KG, but comparitively the Mazda 6 MPS is 1665KG and it brakes better better than the TSX by 1.5 car spaces. But that's not what's important...

Whilst you even thought about mentioning WEIGHT, you then managed to mention $200,000 Mercedes or Porsche Cayenne S stopping in around 175 feet in the same paragraph.

The Cayenne S is 2245KG for god's sake which is 765KG heavier than the TSX, and the 2007 Mercedes S550 also weighs a mighty 2029KG. AND STILL, the Cayenne brakes similar and the Mercedes actually braked better than the TSX/Euro Accord Luxury with that much more lard.

As a side comparison the 1935KG BMW 750 also brakes better stopping at 165 feet (arguably on different tyres but looks at the weight).


I said I was being picky, but definitely not to the extent that you had in mind... lol :D

[yfin]

The braking system for the Euro is, for its size, unremarkable. To suggest it is poor compared to other cars isnt reflected in the figures anyone has posted.

The 2 tonne vehicles like the Porsche mentioned have massive braking systems to cope with the weight so relatively speaking I dont see why that reflects negatively on the Euro braking distance.

Perhaps if Honda had installed the braking sytem from a 2 tonne BMW you might be happy.

And as you have seen - the MPS also has a figure out there of 171 feet - so not 1.5 car lengths compared to the TSX. Tyres are perhaps the biggest factor in this equation.

[yfin]

Well since you mentioned the TSX being 'quite a bit heavier' if you'd actually compared Apples with Apples, the TSX with similar features like the Euro Accord Luxury, is roughly 1Kg difference. The Euro Accord Normal Spec is around 100Kg lighter at 1375KG
More than 1kg difference. Manual Euro lux is 1440kg according to Honda Australia web site. So taking Aarons' numbers posted the equivalent manual TSX is 25kg more. Not to mention the smaller contact patch with 215 compared to our 225 tyres.

Agree the std Euro is 100kg lighter than base TSX.

[Omotesando]

And as you have seen - the MPS also has a figure out there of 171 feet - so not 1.5 car lengths compared to the TSX. Tyres are perhaps the biggest factor in this equation.

As copied from your figures, tested on the same day:

* Acura TSX - 177
* Honda Accord V6 - 180
* Mazda 6MPS - 155

Firstly 22 feet is roughly 1.5 car spaces.
AARONNG said in two separate posts, in other tests - once the TSX stopped even further at 183 feet instead using its All Weather Performance Tyres. And for the Mazda 6 MPS and WRX, stopped at 171 feet when they ALSO used all Weather Tyres Performance Tyres.
With the variations in tests and various conditions, the difference gets from 6-12 feet using same tyres. So that's around 1 car space. And different tyres on 6 MPS means the difference was as large as 22-26 feet, which is 2 car spaces. On AVERAGE that is around 1.5 car spaces.

If you want to be so pedantic about the matter, why did you say in your last post :
"And I think you are being picky - if a $200,000 Mercedes or Porsche Cayenne stops in 175 or so feet - why expect better from a Euro?"

When the Cayenne S actually stops at 181 feet and the Mercedes S550 stops at 172 feet, which means they have a 9 feet difference between them? Yet you averaged it out and said its roughly 175 or so feet as well.



The 2 tonne vehicles like the Porsche mentioned have massive braking systems to cope with the weight so relatively speaking I dont see why that reflects negatively on the Euro braking distance.

Perhaps if Honda had installed the braking sytem from a 2 tonne BMW you might be happy.

Obviously a much heavier 2 tonne vehicle will need better braking systems to cope proportionally. Since you mentioned them, I just pointed out the weight differences as a point of interest!

The answer is no. If Honda had installed the 2 tonne BMW braking system on the Honda I wouldn't be happy at all. It will be overdone and massive locking the tyres more. All I wish for on the car I'm driving, is a 10 or 20% better braking and better ABS system, that is more suitable for the car. I don't know why you even mentioned that to be honest there's absolutely no point to that last statement on your last post. .. :o


Anyway the fact that WRX or 6 MPS, few of the cars that weight the same or more, and brake better EVEN WHEN THEY ALL USE 'compromised' weather performance tyres, that compete on the market with the TSX and the even poorer braking Accord V6 - doesn't that actually tell you Honda could have done better? As a customer, you don't expect to buy a new car and then expect to immediately fork out for better tyres anyway. That is one of the reasons I bought the Euro Luxury anyway, as it has better tyre and rim package! :p

[Omotesando]

More than 1kg difference. Manual Euro lux is 1440kg according to Honda Australia web site. So taking Aarons' numbers posted the equivalent manual TSX is 25kg more. Not to mention the smaller contact patch with 215 compared to our 225 tyres.

Agree the std Euro is 100kg lighter than base TSX.

Well I typed in Euro Accord Luxury Weight on google and the first link that came up said its 1481KG. http://www.drive.com.au/buy/new/car_features.asp?m=honda&init=64319620060106

Anyway, let's not argue over 25 or even 40Kg. It is nothing much, compared to the difference between the Mazda6 MPS's 1665KG and the Cayenne S's 2.2Tonne weight :(

As for the CONTACT PATCH - arrrr.... Actually the 215 tyre and the 225 tyre has EXACTLY the same contact patch size, at the same tyre pressure... I'm sure this is a well known issue, so I won't go about debating over this topic again. Please do some research.

Basically the contact patch pattern is slightly different. The wider tyre concentrates on a wider but narrower patch, the narrower tyre is the opposite. The braking difference between them would be minimal if the compound is similar enough, especially when the suspension and tyre contact path will be loaded at full braking.

As a side note, the whole point of running bigger rims and lower profile tyres is that you can have more side tyre-wall stiffness and if needed, run slightly lower tyre pressure on the lower profile tyres, to get more contact patch grip without compromising cornering stability. Obviously handling is improved as well. Different story :D

[yfin]

Meh.. can't be bothered Omo man responding to all of above. First you come on here saying the Euro stops in 30-40% worse distance than other 1400kg cars with "your testing" (whatever that is) and now we have reached a conclusion where you want only a 10 to 20% improvement...

How about someone post up some Australian figures from that Wheels magazine article. I think we will find the Euro braking figures are pretty average compared to similar cars. Nothing at the bottom, nothing at the top -just average.

[aaronng]

I don't get all this bickering. We've found that braking performance was good in the Wheels test, was bad for the TSX (6MPS and WRX as well) in the US tests because of all-season tyres. And the Euro's ABS engages too early and doesn't allow any initial locking. What else is there to argue about? Jeez....

[aaronng]

Anyway the fact that WRX or 6 MPS, few of the cars that weight the same or more, and brake better EVEN WHEN THEY ALL USE 'compromised' weather performance tyres, that compete on the market with the TSX and the even poorer braking Accord V6 - doesn't that actually tell you Honda could have done better? As a customer, you don't expect to buy a new car and then expect to immediately fork out for better tyres anyway. That is one of the reasons I bought the Euro Luxury anyway, as it has better tyre and rim package! :p
Actually, I would expect the WRX and 6 MPS to have better a better brake setup than the Euro. Those 2 cars are performance cars. The Euro and the Accord V6 are just family sedans. I don't expect them to outbrake a WRX or MPS

[curik]

Actually, I would expect the WRX and 6 MPS to have better a better brake setup than the Euro. Those 2 cars are performance cars. The Euro and the Accord V6 are just family sedans. I don't expect them to outbrake a WRX or MPS

Both MPS and WRX have ventilated discs F+R setup. Also they are 320mm compared to our 300mm.

[Omotesando]

Meh.. can't be bothered Omo man responding to all of above. First you come on here saying the Euro stops in 30-40% worse distance than other 1400kg cars with "your testing" (whatever that is) and now we have reached a conclusion where you want only a 10 to 20% improvement...

How about someone post up some Australian figures from that Wheels magazine article. I think we will find the Euro braking figures are pretty average compared to similar cars. Nothing at the bottom, nothing at the top -just average.

May be you can't be bothered because you don't know what you were talking about, not to mention take what I say 'out of context' repeatedly when I have already explained it clearly enough. And at the language you use..... 'Meh....' What Meh....? Please show some respect. IN fact I'm glad you finally decided not to reply further because I don't have to explain the obvious again to you. As AARONNG has said, we have been discussing about the same thing again and again and it is generally agreed that there are some improvements to be made to the braking system. Which I had already stopped at.

You are the one who wanted to continue the topic... nickpicking me the minuit weight difference between a TSX and Euro Accords then outragiously compare it with a 2.2 tonne Porsche Cayenne S and Mercedes S550 in the same sentence. You're the one who wanted to reply me one paragraph after another where I then took the time and effort to try and explain each thing you said incorrect to you. Remember - you're the one saying that a better and bigger braking package is expected on a heavier car and therefore YOU'RE 'relatively' happy with a Euro Accord/TSX's braking similarly -
showing total disregard to Physics and Momentum at the same time.

If a much heavier vehicle (765KG more) can brake in the same distance, then unlike you and let's not get too greedy, but at least I'd want to question WHY my car that is so much more lighter can't brake at least a bit better... :( Physics states that we should brake much better as we bought a lighter mid-size car instead of a 2 tonner because its more nimble, easier to drive and handle, easier to park but also should brake in a much 'safer distance' - those are its weight advantages. Similarly a weight reduction on a car on the track is desired for the same reasons, and mainly because it brakes and handles better.

This test was done from 70mph-0mph. The Wheels test or whatever I assume was from 100kph-0kph?

My test as I've already explained to you and I will requote myself in case you didn't read my previous reply properly:


I have tested mine Euro doing 100kph-0kph and seriously it braked quite normal and well, as I mentioned. But doing it at a different speed (X5Xkph), the car just did not want to stop at all.... I'm talking about like 50m more than I expected for that speed.

Firstly it is a completely different speed and I already tried to be as bias free as possible. I mentioned 30-40% initially because that's what it felt like and it is a figure-of-speech just to let others know so they'll have a safety margin in mind, when they brake at higher speeds. If you enjoy nit-picking me so much, you can say that the '50m' I said is wrong as well which I will totally agree with you, because all I'm trying is to put a message across that it felt a bit lacking in high speed braking. And during the test I was only judging by the light poles for distance.. It definitely isn't scientific enough.

And I did say the 100kph-0 test I did felt much more assuring and I fell very fine with it. But may I hazard a guess that the 6 MPS, WRX, VW Jetta, the 2 tonners Merc S550/BMW 750/Cayenne S will brake even relatively better at higher speeds.

AARONNG made a reasonable point that he'll expect the 6 MPS and WRX to brake better because they're more performance based sedans. I agree somewhat but don't forget the Euro Accord/TSX revs past 7000rpm, and was built from factory with the potential to be modded with I/H/E and HONDATA for much more power and speed, and even as it is sold stock, is half a foot into the sports car category already.

Anyway I'm not going to reply this further, as long as people don't take what I said into the wrong context again. :wave:

[yfin]

Omo man - you are the one who posted up what I considered a questionable claim about stopping 50m too long and 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.

EXPECT people to question your claims - whether you call it nitpicking or otherwise. It is discussion. Get used to it. That is what we try to encourage here.

Despite your attempts - I have not personally attacked you in any way. Saying - &#180;meh&#180; is frustration. Interpret it as you like but it isnt a lack of respect.

Anyway, regardless of physics, I am pretty chuffed the TSX can brake in the roughly the same distance as a S Class Mercedes (probably the pinnacle of motoring safety) - I would have expected Mercedes to do much better, not Honda from 70mph.

[Omotesando]

Omo man - you are the one who posted up what I considered a questionable claim about stopping 50m too long and 30-40% worse than other 1400kg cars.

EXPECT people to question your claims - whether you call it nitpicking or otherwise. It is discussion. Get used to it. That is what we try to encourage here.

Despite your attempts - I have not personally attacked you in any way. Saying - &#180;meh&#180; is frustration. Interpret it as you like but it isnt a lack of respect.

Anyway, regardless of physics, I am pretty chuffed my Euro can brake in the roughly the same distance as a S Class Mercedes - I would have expected Mercedes to do much better, not Honda.


I said.
I braked at 150+KPH to 0KPH as a test.
And it stopped like what I felt subjectively as 30-40% longer or 50m, rough guesstimating so as to give an 'indication for others' to take note. Obviously that is short of producing a completely accurate GPS Device testing report, because I don't have one available.

Do you have one available I could borrow?

If not, what is wrong then, may I question you YFIN, to say what I tested myself. Have u tried it yourself?

Yes we all make mistakes or whatever.
But I only made a subjective comment as a figure of speech with rough numbers and it is valid at least in my past experience with 1400KG cars.

Did I keep drilling you for mistakenly 'assuming' that the Tyre Contact Patch is the same between different tyre widths? At least I only mentioned it once.

You've stepped over the line and whilst I never found you attacking me 'despite your attempt'.... just to give u a dose of ur own medicine, ur 'choice of words' are sometimes inappropriate and I find to be impolite sometimes... especially when I've already explained it again, yet you still come back to have a dig.

Why don't you go and do some testing yourself first? Then you'll probably change your mind and actually AGREE with me.


****************
As for the S Class Mercedes - if its the S550 you're referring to, it DOES brake better at 70mph-0 than the TSX (on those tires).
And it most definitely should brake much much better at higher speeds, that was my concern initially in the first place. And it weighs 2 tonnes. Ours weigh 500+KG ligher.

Of course, it might be irrelevant if our road limits are 110kph anyway. But I want to discuss about it regardless, especially with the mindset that some of us will take the car onto a track.

[aaronng]

Quit it already. The Accord Euro has brakes that are adequate for stopping in our 110km/h limited roads. That's why they work well at 110km/h and not 150km/h. That could even be the reason why DC5Rs only came with Honda front calipers instead of the Brembos of the JDM. Because we "wouldn't" be breaking the speed limit of 110km/h and requiring to stop from higher speeds.

If you want better 150km/h stopping performance, get better pads. If you want less sensitive ABS, complain to Honda about using Aisin/Denso's ABS modulator/control unit instead of a Bosche unit.

Anymore pointless arguing and attacking, I'll lock the thread.

[IS250]

Here are some braking distances from the NRMA:

These are from 80kmh.

Honda Accord Euro 23.5m
Mazda 6 Luxury 24.5m
Mazda 6 MPS 23.7m
Subaru Liberty 2.0R 35.1m (wet track)
Audi A4 2.0 TDi 25.5m
Lexus IS250 25m
Mercedes C240 (2001) 28.4m
Mitsubishi 380 VRX 23.7m
Toyota Camry Altise (no ABS) 31.4m

Strange, they then go on to say this about the Accord:
The ABS brakes are supplemented with emergency full power assist and stability control. They are disappointing. The pedal lacks feedback and progression, and outright power is also less than convincing. The ABS is easily tripped on bumps.

[Omotesando]

Quit it already. The Accord Euro has brakes that are adequate for stopping in our 110km/h limited roads. That's why they work well at 110km/h and not 150km/h. That could even be the reason why DC5Rs only came with Honda front calipers instead of the Brembos of the JDM. Because we "wouldn't" be breaking the speed limit of 110km/h and requiring to stop from higher speeds.

If you want better 150km/h stopping performance, get better pads. If you want less sensitive ABS, complain to Honda about using Aisin/Denso's ABS modulator/control unit instead of a Bosche unit.

Anymore pointless arguing and attacking, I'll lock the thread.

As I've said just above you, some of us and even you take the Euro Accord onto the track. That is a fact. You've mentioned yourselve here that the brake pads can fail miserably on the track after a few runs, which is actually constructive information to some of the owners, certainly to me. I think experimenting with the braking performance from a higher speed over 110kph is relevant because this thread on this open FORUM and is titled Braking 'Performance' Issues and nowhere along the title is it restricted to Braking Performance Issues for 110kph and Less, or whether using Stock or Aftermarket Pads.

Furthermore, you could drive the Euro Accord in Australia legally for way above 110kph up in Northern Territory. It is therefore not pointless to discuss these matters, as can drive it above that speed legally, and a lot of people also modify their Euro Accord to suit for better performance via suspension, braking and power wise especially. These are highly pertinent and are within the forum guidelines, and as such you're actually not allowed to lock the thread based on these reasons.

Personal attacks or disrespect to other forum members as I've recently experienced, are obviously of much more concern on this forum as it clearly contravenes with forum rules and make other members uncomfortable. When my experience with the car stopping seemingly to my mind 30-40% longer at a much higher (albeit non-standard) speed, whereas I'm happy with the braking at a low normal speed, was half mis-comprehended and exaggerated by another forum member. It is within rules of the forum to clarify my original viewpoint so it is not misrepresented - only to be met with the following disdain.


Perhaps if Honda had installed the braking sytem from a 2 tonne BMW you might be happy. Fine example of unnecessary, personal jab to me, that is non-constructive to this braking thread.


Meh.. can't be bothered Omo man responding to all of above. This is disrespectful, insulting and unnecessary, after I took my time and effort to publish my finding, especially considering that YFIN seems to have a post on this forum. Say this in a Court Room or in the Parliament House and one will be 'kicked out' immediately for disrespect and disorder, or even banned. Is that comment relevant to Brake Performance?

AARONNG I would expect you to act fairly and prove yourself being neutral on all matters, as a moderator.

[yfin]

The problem with the internet is scarcasm is sometimes lost... How you interepreted this as a personal attack of you I have no idea:
Perhaps if Honda had installed the braking sytem from a 2 tonne BMW you might be happy.
If you are offended by such a scathing personal attack, I apologise. I will treat you with more sensitivity next time I respond to your posts.

Saying I cant be bothered repsonding when I can sense the futility in doing so is not "disrespectful, insulting and unnecessary". Does it possibly occur to you that I do not want to be drawn further into unnecessary discussion on the same points? You made a point, I responded, you replied, we could go on forever. Eventually it needs to end and I chose an appropriate point.

You obviously think I disrespect your posts. Perhaps you should let everyone know how many of your rep points came from me. So chill out and peace. :)

[aaronng]

AARONNG I would expect you to act fairly and prove yourself being neutral on all matters, as a moderator.
I don't act based on how people expect me to act. I act based on the person that I am. So don't expect me to be taking sides in any arguments. Doesn't matter if I am a mod or not, I won't act just to meet other people's expectations. Just like I don't expect people to listen to me just because I am a mod, I also don't expect respect from people because I am a mod. BTW, I only lock threads when they turn into posts of personal attacks. What I gave was a reminder of what would happen if the situation got out of hand. :)

And with regards to attitudes on the forum, it's still the internet. It's difficult to interpret what sort of emotions that people are trying to portray. Just like how professional letters have to be straight to the point so that there is minimal misinterpretation, it's the same here on the internet where any added "fluff" is often misinterpreted as an attack/insult/etc. There will always be all sorts of attitudes that you will come across, some you will like, most of which you won't. I find it's best to just wade through all the stuff that might seem like insults and stuff and just concentrate on what I am here for, the technical information.

Now that is done with, let's talk about the braking of the Euro some more. :)



As I've said just above you, some of us and even you take the Euro Accord onto the track. That is a fact. You've mentioned yourselve here that the brake pads can fail miserably on the track after a few runs, which is actually constructive information to some of the owners, certainly to me. I think experimenting with the braking performance from a higher speed over 110kph is relevant because this thread on this open FORUM and is titled Braking 'Performance' Issues and nowhere along the title is it restricted to Braking Performance Issues for 110kph and Less, or whether using Stock or Aftermarket Pads.
Any car can be taken on to the track. An old Mercedes S-Class can also be taken to the track (I read of a stock one driving all the way to the Nurburgring to have a go at the Nordschleife). Whether if the braking performance is up to the level that you want is a totally different matter.

Honda specced the Accord Euro so that it was adequate for the most common driving conditions here in Australia. Since the majority of roads are 110km/h limited (except for NT as you stated), that's what the Euro's brakes were specced at. Just like in the States, they have snowy winters almost everywhere, so their TSX came standard with all-season tyres which gave them worse braking and handling performance. And why do I say that the brakes are suitable for 110km/h and not 150km/h? The MAJORITY of TSX owners have had their rotors and pads replaced under warranty. Having pads replaced under warranty is not common as it is a wear item. But if Acura is agreeing and having to do so at a regular basis, then they are aware that their pads are not suitable for the speeds at which they drive at (legally up to 80mph I think) and the repeated braking that they do when coming up to traffic on the interstates.

Back to my opinion. For the 95% of Euro owners out there who are above 30 and drive sedately, the brakes are more than adequate. For the remaining 5% of us, it's not enough. On the street when driving normally, I found the Euro's brakes totally adequate. In the case of emergency braking down from 80, it was very good. The thing is I want my brakes to still work through repeated 140-60km/h braking speeds when on the track. So I plan to change to better pads that will withstand high temperatures. Based on the feedback from TSX owners, going to aftermarket pads, even those crappy Bendix (Axxis in the US) Ultimates did improve braking performance considerably.

[aaronng]

That's a bit of difference to the other article numbers wow. Were they tested by the same magazine, and/or on the same road or track or similar? What about tyre temperature preparations - did they test both cold and warm?

Actually why did they have 6 MPS coming with different tyre packages? :O

Anyway, assuming tyres being equal, the 6 MPS being 100+ Kg heavier and WRX with similar weight to Euro Accord still brakes better at only 70mph-0 at 171 feet.

The Euro Accord is around the 177 feet or 183 feet comparatively. That's a massive 6-12 feet difference at only roughly 121-121.5kph which is a realistic speed some of us occasionally arrive at and do go over say on a track.

As for the rear disc - the Euro is 60 front and 40 rear weight distribution from what I heard. Front braking force takes up roughly 70% and rear 30%. So I guess if adding the sums up, the rear disc and caliper is an okay size relative to the front? U know I'm starting to think I'm being too picky on the Euro Accord - it does do a lot of things right and better than other cars. May be I should be content with what it has... and just modify to suit :)
Ahhh, I missed this post...

All the numbers that I quoted are from the same article, so they would be comparable between the different models. But you can't really compare results from different articles because of variations such as temperature, road quality, slope (most test tracks are not level) and the biggest factor, the test driver.

Most cars in the US come with all-season tyres. Most of them have summer high performance tyres (which is what we get here in australia) that will cost extra money to have them added on as a dealer option.

And tyres are not equal between different brands of vehicle. Even with the Aussie Euros, the standard and Lux models have such different tyre performance that you can't compare between the two. If we can't deduce brake system performance between 2 levels of spec of the same model, we can't compare brake system of different brands of cars. At best, we can only hope to look at the braking performance of the vehicle as an entire package.

In my opinion, the brakes of the Euro is adequate given its weight. It's the pads that are a letdown. The new Legend will come out with 4-pot front brakes on a 320mm disc and rear single pot 310mm VENTED discs. So Honda does know that a 1855kg sedan requires stronger brakes. More interesting would be whether that 4-pot would fit on the Euro with some modification :thumbsup:

[yfin]

Based on the feedback from TSX owners, going to aftermarket pads, even those crappy Bendix (Axxis in the US) Ultimates did improve braking performance considerably.
Where was your post when I asked for opinions on the Ultimates months ago!? lol :D

I ordered these for my Euro front and rear. Oh well, they were not really expensive and as long as they are an improvement I will be happy. The car doesn't hit the track anyway.

[aaronng]

Where was your post when I asked for opinions on the Ultimates months ago!? lol :D

I ordered these for my Euro front and rear. Oh well, they were not really expensive and as long as they are an improvement I will be happy. The car doesn't hit the track anyway.
You did? LOL, I missed that. Anyway, do you still want my opinion now? :D
They are abrasion pads. So they brake very well even when cold. When it gets hot, they still brake better than the stock pads, but I'd expect them to still have some fade once the temperatures get high enough to break down your brake fluid and turn your discs blue. The only way to reach this temperature is on the track. Not even the mountains will get the brakes this hot.

Rotor wear should be higher than stock pads as well. I'll be going to adhesion pads, but those are more expensive and require a bit of warming up as when they are cold, they perform exactly like the crappy OEM pads. LOL. Price.... RRP$320 for fronts..... crazy.

[yfin]

Wow, $320 for fronts.

These ultimates cost me $120AUD - front and rear in the USA. But everything automotive is cheap there I guess. Not sure how much the Ultimates cost in Australia - probably double.

For that price some extra rotor wear is fine - good excuse to upgrade the rotors later.

[Omotesando]

And tyres are not equal between different brands of vehicle. Even with the Aussie Euros, the standard and Lux models have such different tyre performance that you can't compare between the two. If we can't deduce brake system performance between 2 levels of spec of the same model, we can't compare brake system of different brands of cars. At best, we can only hope to look at the braking performance of the vehicle as an entire package.

In my opinion, the brakes of the Euro is adequate given its weight. It's the pads that are a letdown. The new Legend will come out with 4-pot front brakes on a 320mm disc and rear single pot 310mm VENTED discs. So Honda does know that a 1855kg sedan requires stronger brakes. More interesting would be whether that 4-pot would fit on the Euro with some modification :thumbsup:

I do think that the tyre and brake performance should be looked at as an entire package too. There is a bit of weight difference between the Standard and the Luxury spec. I guess the Luxury has slightly better tyres to compensate for the disadvantage with weight? Although previous Luxury models had different wheels and tyres too.

Actually I do wonder if the ABS calibration system is the same between both models, and if it is which spec (or even TSX or JDM Euro Accord) it was set on. It might actually have an influence.

With regards to your previous suggestion, I do question whether we could relay the ABS sensitivity and endless pulsation issue to Honda and have them reflect on it (or to utilise the BOSCH ABS module). As my Euro Accord is the 2005 spec, and generally I'm very happy with the car and build quality, I'll be tempted to buy their next generation or updated Euro Accord provided they could do something with the issue. I've heard that some car companies do listen to what customers hope for the next update's improvements, noticeably SUBARU does this for every generation and nearly every year for many areas - I guess apart from the looks.

Generally I do agree wholeheartedly that the Euro's brakes are very good at low-medium speeds as it brakes quite adequately and the initial bite reduces driver reaction time, thus also distance in braking.

:angel:

[Omotesando]

Wow, $320 for fronts.

These ultimates cost me $120AUD - front and rear in the USA. But everything automotive is cheap there I guess. Not sure how much the Ultimates cost in Australia - probably double.

For that price some extra rotor wear is fine - good excuse to upgrade the rotors later.

Extra rotor wear is a good trade off, if the braking is vastly improved. I agree with this philosophy because afterall, some part has to sacrifice first. :)

[Fredoops]

Holy shit you just revived a half decade old thread!!!