Chassis strengthening

[spetz]

Just wondering, besides the obvious strut braces, roll cages and so on, how to strengthen a chassis?

More specifically spot welding, seam welding and so on?

I will be taking my car to a rolling shell soon enough so wondering what can be done, especially a DIY job?

[sivic]

yeah basically spot weld along all the chassis seams, and then you can use a special resin which is light yet rigid to fill in all the chassis tubing.
see if you can find some stuff on how a lot of the jap workshops do there track cars.

[aaronng]

Urethane foam filling.

[spetz]

Where can I get this filler from?

And does it make a big difference? Weight?

Spot welding, is that easy to do yourself?

[joyride]

http://www.weldingzone.net/s/spot_welding
its got alot of useful info

[Slow96GSR]

The foam can be bought online or at any hardware store. As to weight, well it's pretty light. Might be 3-5 pounds per cubic foot and that might be a little high.

[spetz]

Oh ok that is quite light
How does it work for sound deadener then? :)

What kind of areas would I be putting it in?

[sivic]

you put in the chassis rail tubing. of course you have to seal them all off with tape or you'll have a damn big mess lol

[spetz]

Oh you mean under the car??

[ewendc2r]

The foam is light as hell -- :)

And if you are going to spot weld, plug weld instead (Drill the hole, the spot weld it :P)

My 2c

[spetz]

Is it easy to DIY at home??

[j3z3z]

have you thought of installing chassis braces underneath the car?

[sivic]

he said besides those in the first post.
spetz - if you do actually take your car apart down to the chassis you'll see the rectangular tubing which makes up the chassis tubing. thats what you fill in.

[Limbo]

yeah seen this done in prep.

Spetz be careful when rewelding the chassis.
If you don't know what your doing you can weaken the chassis, as when you weld the heat affects the welded areas and can weaken you chassis.

Might be a good idea to speak to a good welded first.

[Limbo]

p.s have a look at this site, they rewelded the chassis of a toyota and alot of work was done on this car. Cost $100k

http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/IIda%20AE86%20project.htm

[ewendc2r]

Is it easy to DIY at home??

If you can competently weld and drill then sure. But you want a bare shell and obviously some areas are more important that others (so do some research :P)

It is just time intensive really.

[spetz]

When you guys mean strip the car... how exactly do you mean?

All my suspension will be out (including all arms, bolts etc) and all my interior will be out too (carpet, seats, trim etc)
So basically can see the metal from any point



I have never welded before though...
The reason I want to do this, is because the car will get to this stage for other things, and I thought I can maybe do it myself?

[ewendc2r]

You want to be a good welder so you don't over heat parts of the shell.. Do your research and practice welding A LOT first to get it right.. As said above, easy to do, but you can still easily **** it if not done right

[Jomsy]

the basic idea is to add a 1inch weld then a 2inch gap then another 1inch weld (and so on) along all the joins that are spotwelded, also you add triangle gussets to key load points

unless your going rallying or serious motorsport don't waste your time

i have done it on a few rally cars and i can tell you its not easy

[ewendc2r]

hahah .. yeh its takes a LOT of time .. You will get a significant benefit from simple plug welding and also filling with foam.

Going the next step is kinda hardcore - and will definitely make your car non road worthy

[spetz]

I mean realistically I just want to do what I can do myself.

I am good with my hands but have never welded or done any of this before



The reason I am doing it is because I will be taking out all the suspension to change bushes, seats carpet etc cuz changing carpet
Boot is all out already

[sivic]

yeah, in that case you prob cant do too much. to do any welding or filling on the chassis you'll really want to remove all your panels, engine, lines etc. basically so its down to nothing but the chassis

[ewendc2r]

Not TOO much more work to remove the rest, but just get a few pieces of steel and practice some plug welding.. it isn't THAT hard.. :P

But if in doubt, don't do it lol

[iamhappy46]

the basic idea is to add a 1inch weld then a 2inch gap then another 1inch weld (and so on) along all the joins that are spotwelded, also you add triangle gussets to key load points

unless your going rallying or serious motorsport don't waste your time

i have done it on a few rally cars and i can tell you its not easy

I did this to my N14 Pulsar, took freakin ages(about 40 hours?) but going up steep angled driveways it lifts the 2 unloaded wheels! Placing the wheel jack at one 'corner' point will also raise 3 wheels and leave diag opp wheel on the ground.

[joyride]

would you need any eng cert doing a spot weld on the chassis?

[Muzz]

I mean realistically I just want to do what I can do myself.

I am good with my hands but have never welded or done any of this before



The reason I am doing it is because I will be taking out all the suspension to change bushes, seats carpet etc cuz changing carpet
Boot is all out already

is this for a race car or is this for your street car? what are the future plans for the car? if u feel its a must, get a professional welder to do it, but if you realy must diy please consider doing a welding course first, if u really feel its needed for your application. however let me say its not hard to screw up, and self inflicted dammage is not covered by insurance. please be careful.

what other mods have been done to your car? id say theres probably many other areas to address first before going into spot welding. Foam filling can get messy but gives excelent results. if u go this route, get the foam made for the job, not the hardware store stuff.

[SPEEDCORE]

p.s have a look at this site, they rewelded the chassis of a toyota

Yeah... then they wrecked it by putting a cage in it that is worthless. :rolleyes:

If you ever stumble across pics of the front part of the cage and how it has been bent to contour with the dash..... you will know why I said it is worthless.

[iamhappy46]

Hmmm... Bending the roll cage to contour with the dash actually can malke it stronger if welded properly. Check out a WRC car next time you have a chance and notice that their cages are curved around the dash too :)

There is an big science behind roll cages, all depends on what you want to achieve. If they wanted the mounting plate to be in a certain part of the chassis and wanted to keep the dash, then that is the compromise. Properly bent pipe should not loose its structural integrity.

[SPEEDCORE]

then that is the compromise.

Compromise is what ends up costing people their lives when it involves safety. :rolleyes:

[iamhappy46]

All those hi-speed WRC crashes into trees/off cliffs seem to highlight that I assume? ;)

All depends on the A pillar position and where the strongest part of the floor is, not to mention class rules. Got evidence that a properly designed curved roll cages kill/injure more people than a 'properly' designed 'straight' cage?

Keep in mind that curves are used in the B pillar braces as well :)

[spetz]

Anyway decided that I'd get a pro to do it
Not that expensive either
After I strip the hole car and drop it off should be under $1k and then just gotta put it back together myself

[Muzz]

Anyway decided that I'd get a pro to do it
Not that expensive either
After I strip the hole car and drop it off should be under $1k and then just gotta put it back together myself

cool:thumbsup: wise choice.

[SPEEDCORE]

Keep in mind that curves are used in the B pillar braces as well :)
I am not talking about curves. When you have pipe that has been bent pretty much into an S like seen on the front section of the cage of the car that was mentioned, that pipe is easily going to collapse with the forces experienced ie. in a roll over.

SPETZ: Take it to a place that have done CAMS approved cages before.

[spetz]

Can a smash repairer do it?

Is it worth doing for street car?

[SPEEDCORE]

Can a smash repairer do it?

Is it worth doing for street car?
Does he or has he made cages that are CAMS approved based on the the rules and guidelines the type of racing the car will be competing in? If yes then yes he can.... if he hasn't I would not even waste my time further asking them. Even though it seems the car will not be used in motorsport of any kind I still would not be adding something in a car by someone that just knocks one up cause he is good with a MIG and pipes.

"Is it worth it for a street car?" ...You mean a cage? IMO NO.

Though the idea of more welds, spot welds and seam sealant/joiner I would say it is possibly worth it, BUT only if you already had plans on getting the car totally resprayed.

[e240]

Actually, the Cusco ones, even the curved ones are actually ok and approved in Japan for Motorsports.

CAMS approved only if you intend to race in Australia...thats only because CAMS are being an arse about the whole "I make the rules thing", not because they're any safer.

[spetz]

No cage I am not going to put in
Have already front upper, lower, rear upper, lower braces, boot brace, plan on getting fender braces and maybe a b pillar/room brace

I asked them about seem welding my chassis (a smash repairer) and they said that they can drill holes then fill it with metal and mig/tig weld (or something along those lines anyway) to add chassis strength
How does that sound? Would it give benefits or possibly make things worse?

[spetz]

bump!

[Muzz]

Actually, the Cusco ones, even the curved ones are actually ok and approved in Japan for Motorsports.

CAMS approved only if you intend to race in Australia...thats only because CAMS are being an arse about the whole "I make the rules thing", not because they're any safer.

are you serious? the cusco cages are shit jdm crap! if u want a cage, get a proper one, made to cams specifications.

[Muzz]

Heres what im basing my claim off -
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=712004

and theres plenty more out there
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1189821
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1456685&page=2
etc. etc.

good luck getting past tech inspection if u plan of doing any racing in australia

[Muzz]

in my opionion, any cage that has single bolt joints holding it together instead of solid welds (no im not talking bout bolt in cages) is crap. see pics in the first thread for referance.

[aaronng]

Regular Cusco cages are for looks and securing your harness to. They are not FIA approved. Cusco Safety 21 cages on the other hand are supposedly approved.

[yourfather]

Regular Cusco cages are for looks and securing your harness to. They are not FIA approved. Cusco Safety 21 cages on the other hand are supposedly approved.
disappointing to know.

[e240]

Heres what im basing my claim off -
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=712004

and theres plenty more out there
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1189821
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1456685&page=2
etc. etc.

good luck getting past tech inspection if u plan of doing any racing in australia

As I said, if you bothered to read:
"Actually, the Cusco ones, even the curved ones are actually ok and approved in Japan for Motorsports. "

"CAMS approved only if you intend to race in Australia...."
I guess I have to elaborate this for you...You get CAMS approved cages only if you intend to race in Australia in events which require a Roll Cage.

Clear enough for you?

BTW, the sites you've quoted are just opinions of the layman. Their opinions mean nothing.

[ekslut]

are you serious? the cusco cages are shit jdm crap! if u want a cage, get a proper one, made to cams specifications.

Agreed, if your going to get a cage get it to cams specs. We have our own regulations here in australia and if we want to partisipate in CAMS events then we must follow their rules and get a cage made up to their specs.

Another advantage to getting it made up here is that you can get it made to up to road legal specs too.

[Muzz]

As I said, if you bothered to read:
"Actually, the Cusco ones, even the curved ones are actually ok and approved in Japan for Motorsports. "

"CAMS approved only if you intend to race in Australia...."
I guess I have to elaborate this for you...You get CAMS approved cages only if you intend to race in Australia in events which require a Roll Cage.

Clear enough for you?

BTW, the sites you've quoted are just opinions of the layman. Their opinions mean nothing.

How does it help us if its approved in japan - where in australia.



"CAMS approved only if you intend to race in Australia...."
I guess I have to elaborate this for you...You get CAMS approved cages only if you intend to race in Australia in events which require a Roll Cage.

Clear enough for you?



this bit i dont get sorry. CAMS is an australian only orginisation, there only concerned with racing regulations in australia. if u dont intend to race in australia, than u dont use CAMS regulations.

Are you trying to say this cage approved by CAMS for racing competition in australia? im shur most people here on ozhonda, if planning to start racing, would do so here in australia. Or are u trying to say it dosent matter that its not approved by cams, cus u dont need cams approval in japan?

im not saying its worthless or anything, im just saying for about the same price u could get a MUCH better more effective cage built, then paint it cusco blue:thumbsup:


BTW, the sites you've quoted are just opinions of the layman. Their opinions mean nothing.

While i would usually say the same thing about random info, let me just say, i spend most of my time online in the roadracing/autocross section of honda-tech, and i greatly respect the opionions of a few of the people involved in this discussion, who have a long history in racing, and building race cars.

For example, cagedruss builds cages for a living, heres his opionion:
"Did we all forget something here, the cage is made for Rice from Rice. It is a street/show piece. Not a Race piece. Remember, rules state main hoop has 4 bends equalling 180 +/- 10degrees, if you can't achieve that, you must do the whole cage in the next weight spec. I believe the a-pillar bars have a limit of bends also. I do not have my GCR to open, so I am shooting from the hip, forgive me if I am spewing Dog Crap!"

im my own "laymans" opionion i would chose to get a proper cage built, one with door bars to give some side impact protection.
i would add a harness bar in the main loop to mount the harnesses to. without the harness bar ull need to mount the harnesses way back from the seat to keep them at the proper angle, this leads to them having much more stretch/give, looseining up during a serious impact, not good it it involves multipul rolls etc.

[e240]

We're saying the same thing basically. *Rolleyes*

I'm saying if you want to race in Australia, then you have to get a CAMs approved roll cage.

I never said that (and I know that they are not) the Cusco cages are CAMs approved.

re: Approved in Japan.
The point here is simply that it is an approved cage for Motorsports in Japan. Whether you want to use it here or anywhere, or whether its approved anywhere else, is another thing altogether.

[aaronng]

re: Approved in Japan.
The point here is simply that it is an approved cage for Motorsports in Japan. Whether you want to use it here or anywhere, or whether its approved anywhere else, is another thing altogether.
Where does it say that Cusco cages are approved for motorsports in Japan? All it says is that Cusco cages are Japanese MOT-approved.

[Muzz]

cages built to survive 200kph+ multi rollover crashes:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cage4.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cage3.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cage2.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cage1.jpg

Cusco Jdm bling bling yo! - looks nice, not for real racing.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cagepoor.jpg

[e240]

Where does it say that Cusco cages are approved for motorsports in Japan? All it says is that Cusco cages are Japanese MOT-approved.

Its not mentioned specifically, but they use those cages for their grass roots motorsports. I'll try and get more detailed info.

[aaronng]

Its not mentioned specifically, but they use those cages for their grass roots motorsports. I'll try and get more detailed info.
Yeah, but grassroots motorsports means it is an event that is organised by the competitors and controlled by the competitors or the track organisers rather than a motorsport body. At this level, a roll cage is not mandatory, and so you can use non-approved cages. It's the equivalent to a Wakefield open day! You can use broomsticks as a rollcage and the Wakefield officials won't even bat an eye as it is not inspected.

[e240]

Yeah, but grassroots motorsports means it is an event that is organised by the competitors and controlled by the competitors or the track organisers rather than a motorsport body. At this level, a roll cage is not mandatory, and so you can use non-approved cages. It's the equivalent to a Wakefield open day! You can use broomsticks as a rollcage and the Wakefield officials won't even bat an eye as it is not inspected.

Actually no...Grassroots motorsports is not the same as a track day.
Grassroots motorsports would equal your CAMs organised hill climbs, supersprints etc.

If you tried to use a Cusco cage for CAMs affiliated Supersprints, you'd probably not be allowed to race, even though you don't have to have a roll cage for that class.

Here's a site showing Cusco rally teams using Cusco cages.
http://www.carrosser.com/

But to your point, Cusco themselves have said that some of their cages arenot suitable for Motorsport.

[Muzz]

ahhh, looking at those pics, the bottom left car is most cirtainly not using the cage we are talking about, look at the triangulation in the main hoop. They may be using cages made by cusco, but im absolutly cirtain its not this bolt together cage we are talking about. no rally driver would drive a car with such a basic cage, not to mention no regulations would allow it for serious rally competition anywhere in the world. Show me a pic of the cage we are talking about, in a proper rally car.

[aaronng]

Here's a site showing Cusco rally teams using Cusco cages.
http://www.carrosser.com/

But to your point, Cusco themselves have said that some of their cages arenot suitable for Motorsport.
Thanks for the link. I checked the parts they used, and their rollcage is the Cusco Safety 21, which is FIA approved. I'm not against what you say and such. The only info I want to pass on is that the standard Cusco rollcage is not approved by any motorsport body. For some reason, people believe that the Cusco is a proper rollcage that will save their lives. They should be going for at least the Cusco Safety 21 model.

[Muzz]

and in the top right pic of the cusco rally car, i can see some more triangulation through the left hand side window, which dosnt seem to be a part of there bolt together cage.

[Muzz]

The only info I want to pass on is that the standard Cusco rollcage is not approved by any motorsport body. For some reason, people believe that the Cusco is a proper rollcage that will save their lives. They should be going for at least the Cusco Safety 21 model.
:thumbsup:

sorry if it seems like im picking on you e240, i just see little value in cusco's cute little standard cage, when a proper cage is not much more expensive, yet so much more advanced.

[e240]

:thumbsup:

sorry if it seems like im picking on you e240, i just see little value in cusco's cute little standard cage, when a proper cage is not much more expensive, yet so much more advanced.

Don't worry...I can take it. :-) I am considering a cage myself as I may be bumped into a higher class for next years supersprints (due to an engine swap :-( )

So if I'm going to be wrong on cages, I rather be wrong now.

[Muzz]

:thumbsup: yeah good point.

[spetz]

I went around looking for people to spot weld my chassis and polyurethane fill my rails and 2 people I talked to said it wont offer me any better handling or any improvement, and that spot welding is primarily done such that with firm suspension and massive amounts of grip, they don't rip the original welds open?

True? Not true?

[iamhappy46]

You want seam welding not spot welding. Correct terminology helps :)

Seam welding will stiffen the entire car.

[spetz]

No actually spot welding IS what I was asking about
Seam welding is too much money and the car needs to be pretty much a rolling shell

Spot welding and chassis rail filling... any benefits?

[Muzz]

You want seam welding not spot welding. Correct terminology helps :)

Seam welding will stiffen the entire car.


I thought that (correct me if im wrong)
Spot welding the chassis = seam welding the chassis = seem stitching the chassis, all the same thing, all done along the seams of the chassis, all same effect.

if u ask for your chassis to be spot welded, they spot weld along the chassis seams = seam welding, they dont just do spot welds in random places.

Im certain iv heard people & magazines refer to it as "spot welding the chassis" plenty of times.

[SPEEDCORE]

Seam welding is too much money and the car needs to be pretty much a rolling shell
You can not be serious that only occured to you now? :confused:

This is why I told you it was not worth it unless you where planning to fully respray the car a few pages ago.

[spetz]

Yeah seam welding isn't worth it due to taking it to a rolling shell
But spot welding doesn't require the car to be a rolling shell?
And that's what I was talking about, at $55 an hour, even if it take 10 hours (car would be dropped off with no interior at all) it would only be a $550 exercise

[Muzz]

hmmm i must be an idiot, can someone inform me what the differances are between spot welding and seem welding. Arnt they the EXACT same thing. If the person doing ur spot welding dosnt plan on doing it along the chassis seams, where the hell are they planning to do it???

Once again please correct me if im wrong, im here to learn, but seem welding involves spot welding or stitch welding (solid welds can weeken the chassis iv heard) along the chassis seams correct. Spot welds in other places are completly usless to my knowlege.

So are you gunna get ur car seem welded (spot welds along the seams) or get random useless spot welds here and there, to save striping it down to the shell.

[Muzz]

Someone please explain how seem welding is different to spot welding along the seems of the chassis. Im dying to kno.

[claymore]

Seam welding means you weld along the seam entirely (weld the whole seam).
Spot welding is where you weld in one spot for about an inch then move along the seam and do another small weld leaving parts of the total seam not welded so the welds look like dots along the seam not totally one long weld connected together.

[Muzz]

ahh i see, cheers:thumbsup:
however isnt doing a continous weld bad in that it can actualy weeken the metal, and also cause warping?

i know its bad with welded in cages, when mounting the plates to the car, the good cage builders will do in weld inch then no weld then inch weld to keep some strength in the area, cus it can punch through easier if welded all around the plate.

[iamhappy46]

I thought that (correct me if im wrong)
Spot welding the chassis = seam welding the chassis = seem stitching the chassis, all the same thing, all done along the seams of the chassis, all same effect.

if u ask for your chassis to be spot welded, they spot weld along the chassis seams = seam welding, they dont just do spot welds in random places.

Im certain iv heard people & magazines refer to it as "spot welding the chassis" plenty of times.

More information:
Spot welding involves using a spot welder. It normally leaves a 10mm circle as a weld mark and this is how most cars are assembled from the factory. It does not really make the car much stronger as a 1cm wide weld is not a big contact patch when it cannot actually be on a seam.

Seam welding involves a MIG and can either be semi seam welded(which I have done to my N14 Pulsar) or solid seam welded. Solid normally stops the car from deforming in an accident, which means the occupants normally take all of the stored energy from an accident. This normally means fatalities and is why crumple zones/safety cells are created in modern cars.

The 3rd pic you posted in Post #49 shows a bit of semi seam welding.

As a car magazine journo myself, car magazines are renown for making the information more understandable for readers. Probably why you were confused.

By the way Spetz, I paid a local panel beater $100 and a carton of beer to semi seam weld my entire car after I removed my carpet/seats/trim :)

[spetz]

yes I was planning to take mine to a panel beater as well

Is it a good idea? Will it offer improvements??

[Muzz]

cheers iamhappy46 good info there, cleared that up good for me:thumbsup:

So is it only ever done along the chassis seams, or are there other places that it is done where it improves durability and strenght?

[Muzz]

heres that pic again thats the one ur talkin about right.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/cage2.jpg

[claymore]

i know its bad with welded in cages, when mounting the plates to the car, the good cage builders will do in weld inch then no weld then inch weld to keep some strength in the area, cus it can punch through easier if welded all around the plate.

This is not quite true. They do weld a bit then a bit more to prevent warping because the metal gets too hot to do it all at once and to get the parts aligned then they go back and finish the weld. You really need to weld all the way around roll cage parts even the brackets it's MANDATORY in most racing sanctioning bodies and they do inspect it before certifying the roll cage.

If you want to see an example of spot welding look in the photo above, look along the floor on the extreme left side where it meets the body, all those little black spots running up the inner wheel well are spot welds.

[Muzz]

i like this thread:thumbsup: learning lots here.

[Muzz]

take a look at this spetz - good info here especially down the bottom of the page- http://www.drifting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1097 obviously this guy has had experiance with it before.
also for good pics - http://www.shockdrifting.com/articles/view.php?id=49

[Muzz]

Seam welding means you weld along the seam entirely (weld the whole seam).
Spot welding is where you weld in one spot for about an inch then move along the seam and do another small weld leaving parts of the total seam not welded so the welds look like dots along the seam not totally one long weld connected together.

ive been looking around the net for quite a while trying to learn a little more on the subject, and it seems no one uses a continuous weld along the seams, so far ive only seen spot welds and stitching type welds.

[claymore]

Yep not positive on the reason but most professional race teams only use spot welding in the body seams they do not weld the whole seam.

[iamhappy46]

Solid normally stops the car from deforming in an accident, which means the occupants normally take all of the stored energy from an accident. This normally means fatalities and is why crumple zones/safety cells are created in modern cars.

Reason why nobody welds all the seams. It also means that the ENTIRE chassis deforms in an acident as the impact energy stresses the entire car. A small bump in the front left hand corner could break welds in the rear right hand corner and warp the entire car, making future wheel alignments a nightmare :thumbdwn:

Basically, anything that is part of the roll cage is welded tight. Anything else(usually front strut towers forward) is normally tack welded on for easy replacement after a collision.

[ekslut]

So would semi-seam welding or spot welding be the best option for a dedicated track car? I am about to get my car re-sprayed, so I have been thinking about getting something along these lines done.

Does anyone know of any good advice/links on how these welds should be done?

[claymore]

From my research into pro racing teams it looks like they do a weld of about 1/2 inch (little bit over 1cm) move along the seam about 6 inches (15cm) and do another 1/2 inch then keep repeating the process along the seam. With most of the trim in you can only get to the exposed seams on the underside but if it's a track car with stripped interior then there are loads along the wheel wells and floor boards that you can do. But look out as it's a long process so it might be pricey if you have a shop do it. And with any welding be very careful of FIRE and be sure to disconnect your battery and if you have the time take the alternator and ECU right off the car to prevent any possible damage from the welding.

[Muzz]

:thumbsup:

[iamhappy46]

ekslut: Semi seam welding is the best option. Front and rear strut towers, then everything in between is the best parts to weld, although the ED Civic could do with some strength around the radiator support as well, as the castor rod attaches there.

One inch long weld with say between a 2"~4" gap between welds will make it strong enough as your car is probably very light.

Best thing is, when you go up driveways at an angle, you can actually feel the whole chassis staying stiff instead of twisting. I will get pics of my N14 Pulsar interior shortly.

[Muzz]

sweet id luv to check out ur pics too

[ekslut]

sweet, thanks for the advice guys.

The car is already completely stripped, all sound deadening removed, etc...
I have a few mates who can weld, so I think I will just get them to do the job :thumbsup:

So basically if I got a 1/2" - 1" weld every 4" that would be all good?


sweet id luv to check out ur pics too

I'll post up some pics when its all done :thumbsup:

[Muzz]

awsome! if you havnt already, check out the 1st link in post #75, i like the idea this guy has of driling down a little to reach the second layer of metal, then welding it up, otherwise, unless ur using a high powered welder, u may not be actually fusing the layers of metal together properly. Also doing this would let u use less heat/power which i recon would give less chance of warpage problems.

[Muzz]

read post number 14 in the thread i recomended above ^

[claymore]

If you are going to do it that is good advice. Go to your local parts or tool place and they have a tool that goes into your drill and looks like a mini hole saw about 5mm wide with replaceable "Saws". Body shops use them to drill out the stock robot welds when replacing a panel and they drill out only the first panel leaving a nice small hole showing the second panel underneath so you can weld directly to BOTH panels at the same time. If you can't find some maybe "Skinnyboy" can tell you where he gets his.

To use them if you get good at it you just pick your spot and drill, if you need some practice center punch the spot first then drill. You will feel the drill spin freely when you get through the first panel and a small circle of metal will fall out, BUT you can drill through the second panel if you keep the drill pressure on so stop when you get through the first panel. They are cheap and easy to use so you could drill the holes and your buddies doing the welding can follow you around saving you some time.

[nd55]

Just wanted to correct an earlier post.

Foam used to fill chassis spaces isn't the generic stuff you purchase at the hardware store.

It's two part (like epoxy) and has to be mixed together, then introduced into the void somehow before it starts to set.

Not sure of a local supplier of two part foam.... anyone?

Nick.

[spetz]

There were some posts on ozhonda with links to where to buy this stuff from

I realise it isn't your generic expanding foam stuff. But does this actually help much?

[Muzz]

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0006scc_project_nissan_300zx_part_5/ About 2/3 of the way down in this article they talk about foam filling the rails.

here is there verdict

We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.

[spetz]

hmmm seems interesting
Where to buy this stuff?
And is it easy to DIY or should be done by a panel beater?

[Muzz]

couldnt really say there, i have no experiance with automotive foam. search in google or yahoo australia "automotive foam" im sure ull find somthing.

dont know abuot how difficult it would be to diy, but if a panel beater does it, ul have somone to blame if it makes a mess!
Shouldnt be to hard though, drill a few holes in ur chassis rails, and use a funnel to fill the desired amount, i think it doubles in size as it expands, itll say the expansion rate on the pack. Then scrape off any over flow as it comes out & sand any overflow off when completly dry.
Once again i have no idea about this stuff, but it dosnt "sound" to hard, but could get messy.

[Muzz]

Back from the dead, ive been reading that if u foam fill your rails, and they are damaged in an accident, it makes them almost imposible to fix. Making it a not so smart option for a street car. I cant confirm how valid this claim is but a few ppl have mentioned it in various places around the net.

Ive also read, when doing spot welding/seam welding/seam stitching, it is extreemly advisable to do one weld, then move to another part of the car and do another weld, move back and do another weld etc. and keep varying the places u weld. Also to cool each weld using a hair dryer on cold or somthing simular (not water cus it can crack the welds!), before doing the next one, to help reduce the chance of warpage problems.

[STiR]

Very shortly my EG is going in to be seam-welded(excluding engine bay) and have a CAMS approved cage fabricated (weld-in also), then off to to body-shop for inside-out paint-job. We will have the front fenders removed and have some triangular plates welded on (to serve as a fender brace). Should be very interesting.

[Sp00ny]

I did this to my N14 Pulsar, took freakin ages(about 40 hours?) but going up steep angled driveways it lifts the 2 unloaded wheels! Placing the wheel jack at one 'corner' point will also raise 3 wheels and leave diag opp wheel on the ground.

Wouldn't the size/stiffness of the swaybars and length(stroke) of the suspension change that?

As soon as I installed my 22mm Rear swaybar...my car hits 3/2 wheel motions when entering a driveway. Regardless of how stiff your chassis is (to a reasonable extent) the main things that would cause that would be swaybars and stroke...

Swaybars because when force is applied to one wheel greater force is applied to the other resulting in lifting of the wheel. Stroke because if your suspension setup has a small stroke when entering driveways the wheel has only limited space to drop, causing it to "float" in mid-air not so much be "Forced there".

Chassis ridgidity would help this, but wouldnt be the sole cause. If stock our chassis where twisting that much...there would be some serious design flaws.

[STiR]

Just an update on this front, I've got a cage design sorted in Chromoly and there is a possibility the car could be going in next week to start the work. Otherwise, it will be a couple of weeks before they can fit me in. Look forward to seeing the difference a tower to tower bird cage makes :-)

[e240]

Have you confirmed the racing activities you want to do? and checked the regs for the cages they allow?

IPRA does not allow cages to protrude from the cabin and link the towers.

just a thought.


Just an update on this front, I've got a cage design sorted in Chromoly and there is a possibility the car could be going in next week to start the work. Otherwise, it will be a couple of weeks before they can fit me in. Look forward to seeing the difference a tower to tower bird cage makes :-)

[Slaz]

Yeah whilst its a better option strenght wise, as e240 says, might wanna check race class reg's if thats what u intend on doing?

[STiR]

Fair point, the car is actually a daily driven street car. I will only ever use it for club sprint events, john bowe high performance driver training days etc. where there is no necessity for a roll cage. The cage is for my own safety, and for superior chassis rigidity. It's part of my take on Porsche's RS concept... drive to the track, on the track, and back home again...then to uni the next day!

[rpm boy]

Fair point, the car is actually a daily driven street car. I will only ever use it for club sprint events, john bowe high performance driver training days etc. where there is no necessity for a roll cage. The cage is for my own safety, and for superior chassis rigidity. It's part of my take on Porsche's RS concept... drive to the track, on the track, and back home again...then to uni the next day!

Big money for a everyday + track car... whats the chassis welding costing you alone???

[SPEEDCORE]

I've never understood why in 3J (don't know about other CAMS sanctioned catagories) that they can't go through the firewall and onto the shock towers with a good plate/box design.

Cage on the street I am always a fence sitter when it comes to this... on one hand (depending who builds and signs off the cage) you have the chance to have a track car that does not have the hassle and expense of tow car and trailer.

On the other.... you have the safety issue of driving with steel pipe very close to your noggin. Some gusseting I have seen comes awefully close to where your head would be. As for the whole "but you cover it with foam"..... have someone swing one of those foam covered baseball bats at your head.

Sure it might stop you splitting your head open.... but the impact is still there IMO.

[bennjamin]

just a thought....id hate to be inside a car with a full or semi roll cage , in a normal everyday road accident. Rather be in a car that crumples and absorbs the impact rather than be violently thrown around and perhaps into more trouble

[beeza]

True true true benny.

[Benson]

Fair point, the car is actually a daily driven street car. I will only ever use it for club sprint events, john bowe high performance driver training days etc. where there is no necessity for a roll cage. The cage is for my own safety, and for superior chassis rigidity. It's part of my take on Porsche's RS concept... drive to the track, on the track, and back home again...then to uni the next day!

For this instance, get any cage.. Cusco or custom bolt-in. Dont get welded in case you want to remove the cage.

Nice concept :p

[STiR]

Number of points mentioned, most valid. The cage is being built with safety in mind, this also relates to occupant safety on the road. The b-pillar roll-over hoop will be placed rearward of the b-pillar but will be tagged, as an example. The cage is being done by Fabraications, and they will ensure all members are as far away from occupants as possible. No bars near the head for sure...

As for safety in the case of an impact, there are a number of things to remember. The crumple zones front and rear of the car will not be affected. The cage is designed to stop the zone in which the occupants are from crumpling, which is of course desired. Forward and rearward of the strut towers the car will be unaffected. Hopefully the side-intrusion safety will be significantly improved.

Still, as safety is very important, I have a fixed bucket seat and will be using a harness. As you will see in race cars, the key is to limit the movement of the occupants in the event of an impact. The passenger seat is an EVO RECARO which has much more lateral support than the factory seat ever did...

With regards to having a bolt-in cage, there are a number of disadvantages. None of them offer the same protection, and none of them offer any rear advantage in chassis rigidity. With the weld-in, you have both, and they are cheaper to fabricate too.

Also in terms of weight, I was told the cage would weigh around 40kg in cold-drawn mild steel, and around 20-25kg in Chromoly (my preference). I believe much of this weight can be offset by gutting the doors (removal of heavy steel bars and drilling to remove excess material). Also investigating carbon doors, if i can get some at a good price. I think I might be able to completely offset the weight of the cage using carbon doors!

I think you guys will like the car when it's complete :)

[STiR]

Here's a pic showing a very similar cage design:
http://www.morinosu.net/store/car/eg3_civic_27.jpg

And a picture of what the door will look like (will have a pretty aluminum sheet over it, plus manual window winder and door handle and lock will be retained (not very heavy at all).
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6715/demoeg046nf2.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=demoeg046nf2.jpg)http://img525.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

[e240]

Thats pretty Hard core. I compete in the NSW Supersprint Championships and like you, the reason for having a cage in for safety. I've at this point opted for a 1/2 cage per recommended designs in the CAMS manual but as I have more or less decided this car may be converted to a full on track car in the future, I'm not concerned about restoring the car back to original.

Its also made out of mild steel so as to avoid future homologation problems.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h186/e240_a/Cage-1.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h186/e240_a/Cage-2.jpg

Note: From your picture, see his uncovered battery and fuel surge tank? Thats actually not CAMS approved in any form of racing in AU.

[STiR]

Good looking cage there. Yep, aware that the surge tank set up should be covered. I don't have anything like that though. I will be having my battery relocated to the same position (behind the passenger seat), however it will be in a nicely fabricated battery box. This is to allow for A-pillar member to be extended through the firewall to the front left shock tower.

[robbieraver]

Good looking cage there. Yep, aware that the surge tank set up should be covered. I don't have anything like that though. I will be having my battery relocated to the same position (behind the passenger seat), however it will be in a nicely fabricated battery box. This is to allow for A-pillar member to be extended through the firewall to the front left shock tower.


before you get a cage you have to learn how to drive!!!!!!!!!

oh and that other pedal on the right is the clutch :p

[STiR]

Umm... Zac I was pretty sure you get a cage because you DON'T know how to drive...

[robbieraver]

Umm... Zac I was pretty sure you get a cage because you DON'T know how to drive...

na, you got it wrong its coz u cant see past all that beard and hair of yours........

[STiR]

Do some work. Who drives with their eyes? I drive with my heart dude. haha

[rpm boy]

thats sooo corney, like the cages though, preety hardcore cars there

[STiR]

Not to be taken too seriously!

[e240]

farnie, After 10 pages, I think the thread just died.