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CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 04:12 PM
I have a 1992 Honda Civic Gl Hatch and will soon have about $1500+ to spend on it. I was originally going to buy some 17" Avantek mags for it for about $2000+ but I am now thinking of upgrading the engine to a B16A (keeping in mind that thew work will be done for free)

But I do not know which to do....? I am only 16 and get my L's in November this year.

What are your thoughts?
(I don't know if this is the right section?

Weq
01-10-2003, 04:19 PM
Engine all the way, but its gonna be hard on insurance..
Mags just arnt my taste..

wynode
01-10-2003, 04:26 PM
If you are only 16, I recommend the mags so you get used to the car.....and more importantly driving.

Driving a b16 (or any DOHC VTEC) PROPERLY takes alot of practice, and I think you should get used to driving in general first.

Then get the engine. WHo knows, by that time you might even decide to buy another car. Hence you can put the mags on your newer car instead of doing an engine swap and not getting all your money back when you sell it.

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 04:28 PM
Yeh I am leaning towards the engine aswell. I can also in the future get some mags that look like the Avantek ones for about $700 from Japan.
As for insurance, I spoke to my dad and we are going to insure the car in his name and list myself as the primary driver. That way I pay any excess but it is not a big bill each year.

Is thios the sort of cost that I should be expecting?

Engine: About $2000
Work: Free
Anything else at all???

vti-2
01-10-2003, 04:29 PM
Considering you are still young and more power isn't always the best option why not spend the money on suspension. There's so much you could do to improve the handling, that way once you do the engine mods the car will be handling 'on rails'. :wink:

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 04:36 PM
AFAIK the suspension has already been done before I purchased the car, and has been dropped a few inches.

I have been driving cars for about 3-4 years now in my backyard, but I do realise that is a hell alot of a differnce when you get on the road, especially when driving something with that sort of engine in it.

When it comes time to resell the car, will I loose alot of money? I'm assuming I will because mods usually decrease the value of the car right?

ICVCI
01-10-2003, 04:36 PM
* audio & visual -incar tv & dvd always gets attention
* handling - coilovers all the way
* interior


or KEEP SAVING YOUR CASH

Civic Type R
01-10-2003, 04:39 PM
One of my mates over here in Perth Has a R32 GTR Godzilla as his first car and hes 17. He cant even get into the pub with us for a beer :lol: :lol: :lol:

With your case, id actually hold onto the money for the time being and learn to drive first. Learn in a shit weak-as-piss ride for a year. Thats what i did. We have all heard of the stories of young learners crashing high powered cars before. Id hate a civic to be then next statistic. :shock:

ICVCI
01-10-2003, 04:40 PM
cars depreciate very year, so dont get to worried about loosing money cos u will, think of it like hobby... some ppl like lil itty bitty train sets, and some like cars, fast, slow style watever...

vti-2
01-10-2003, 04:47 PM
There's a lot more to suspension than 'dumping' it. You have strut bars, anti-sway bars, proper adjustable coilovers (rather than compressed springs), tie bars and various other brace bars that can help the car handle. Don't be fooled into thinking this is a cheap hobby either, modifying cars properly is not cheap!

If i were you, save your money for now, the temptation to spend it will always be there but save and buy the best. That way you won't end up disappointed.

:)

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 05:15 PM
Thnx for the replies all. And I think that I might aswell keep on saving my money. Because I have alot of things that I want to buy for this car :):)

Setanta
01-10-2003, 05:47 PM
Either save your money for a better car or go to mags if you want to spend the money. 1500 will not get you a B16A swap complete. More importantly, when it comes time to sell, few people look at an engine swap and add it to the price - whells on the other hand are nice and shiney ;)

*sigh* am I really the oldest fart here? :?

Spunkymonkey
01-10-2003, 05:53 PM
*sigh* am I really the oldest fart here? :?

yes :wink:

[[d a n n y]]
01-10-2003, 06:43 PM
lol yeah...

eastwood PC is slower than my modem...

hey man by the way i am 18 and been driving for about close to 3yrs now

V-Tec is very powerfull no JK

i can feel the difference between my car and my mums car when i drive it

big time anywayz b cuz i am changing to a b16a soon

i say engine. and if u swop it over i think i would have to change my insurance to JUST CARS

anywayz good luck hope u make a good decision

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 06:51 PM
Thnx all, and yeh I probably will end up choosing the engine, then get the $700 wheels afterwards when I get a bit more money.
I have never driven a VTEC or even been in one. And I can't wait till I drive one :)

one more chance
01-10-2003, 06:54 PM
go the engine...

once you taste vtec, you'll be hooked for life....

Jnr Teggy
01-10-2003, 07:45 PM
some good advice there cat_spew! listen up!

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 09:04 PM
Lol, yeh I'm set on the engine now :D:D:D
Turning into a "performance person".
Funny, coz I always thought I was a ricer lol.

A'PEXi
01-10-2003, 09:38 PM
i say go for the mags, as the engine swap will be way over your budget. get the engine later :)

Teggy-Vtir
01-10-2003, 09:41 PM
yeah go for mags
b a riceboi first.
its not cheap for an engine conversion

CAT_SPEW
01-10-2003, 09:58 PM
So far I have priced the engine at about $1950+ including pretty much all I need.
Then myself and my dad (who is a mechanic) are going to install it which will take away the $2000 that I would have to pay someojne else to do it.
I wouldn't mind the mags as they are very nice. But the Vtec engine is just oo tempting :)

2ds
02-10-2003, 03:49 AM
Take a b16a for a drive first if you can. and be honest with yourself, do you have the experience necescary to handle it in all conditions. you can allways put it off for a couple of months.

I don't know you and how good your driving is but i wouldn't give someone one of these for a first car. You can have pleny of fun in a shitty old car that can make a decent time to 60. you shouldn't need any more around the streets. and I wouldn't recommend any high speed hoonery to L/P platers, they seem to get chased by the cops and die in horrible crashes, arguably all due to inexperience. V-TEC is damn drug =)

Once you hit 5.5 things start to happen very quickly, the cars are two faced... keeping that in mind you are probably better off with something like this than a silvia or other overpowered rear wheel drive car =)

safe driving and either way have fun =D

-2ds

Setanta
02-10-2003, 08:33 AM
cars depreciate very year, so dont get to worried about loosing money cos u will, think of it like hobby... some ppl like lil itty bitty train sets, and some like cars, fast, slow style watever...

I've owned around about 18 cars in my years on the road and I don't see it as a hobby anymore - you modify and then you sell and you lose money. If you are going to keep the car for 5 years plus (honestly) then go the engine, but if theres any doubt - buy some cheap second hand wheels and whack them on and then save for another (better) car.

You won't lose some money you've invested - you'll lose it all.

As people have noted, a B16A is not a beginners engine - it's very drivable, but the early ones in the EF8/9 and the JDM EG6 are not as refined as the VTiR ones and are nowhere as smooth in their transition to VTEC.

Horses for courses - but I'd wait at least 12 months before heavily modifying - statistics are that you may have an accident before then. I wrote off a car 4 weeks into my licence rolling it onto its roof through inexperience. Now people will jump on me and say "it never happened to me" etc, but look at the stats, play it smart - you have a great platform for learning to survive on the road. Yeah you have learnt how to drive, but survival is something out government, in it's infinite wisdom never insists on. If you must do the swap, spend a couple of hundred and go to an advanced driving school and learn how to control it.

Good luck

CAT_SPEW
02-10-2003, 09:31 AM
You all have very good points, and yes there are alot more fatalities around from younger drivers through inexperience.
I am still going to get the engine, but as you said, I should get some lessons with a qaulified instructer (on the road) before I start driving) In fact my mum insists that I do as we have had a few young people die around our area from speeding etc.

So I'll play it safe and not be stupid. Racing is meant for the track, not for the streets.
Thnx all.

[G]
02-10-2003, 01:58 PM
.

So I'll play it safe and not be stupid. Racing is meant for the track, not for the streets.
Thnx all.

If u have that attitude ull be fine..Id go engine if i was you too.

one more chance
02-10-2003, 06:55 PM
damn straight you're gonna get the engine! ;)

CAT_SPEW
02-10-2003, 07:18 PM
Lol, that's damn right :D:D
I have a friend in the car industry and he is going over to Japan for two weeks. He said he's going to look around to see what sort of engines they have to suit my car.
Would it be hard to fit a jap model into my car? Or just the same as an aus spec?
The B16A/2 that is into a Honda EG GL Hatch.






Cat.

Dream`R
02-10-2003, 09:00 PM
Just to throw a suggestion form left field, have u thought about audio? It seems you will be driving this car alot and you'll want some nice gear. I'd prolly go the audio, then engine, then wheels. But that's just me :roll:

CAT_SPEW
03-10-2003, 06:24 PM
Yeh I had the same idea as you :):)

www.pbase.com/cat_spew/rice_mobile

Check it out, you will see what I mean :)

LatinoHatchCrap
03-10-2003, 06:45 PM
how you guys gonna say its dangerous driving a b16a in the streets?? dayum! the thing has no torque and it honestly drives like a dseries motor until you hit 4000rpm :lol: you know wot you should do...get the motor and do the swap since your luky enough to have your dad be a mechanic RICE SHOULD DIE :x 17's on a civic is a crime and choosing between a swap and 17" TiITE-AzZ mAgS is just wack...

Setanta
03-10-2003, 09:11 PM
Please work out what torque is and then comment. Torque is a direct factor in power. As with any powerful car (and a B16A powered car is such, regardless of what you think) most of the time guys with too much testosterone and too little experience end up crashing out.

It's common sense. Learn to drive and survive first - then do the speed stuff - on the track.

wynode
03-10-2003, 09:37 PM
I'd have to agree with Setanta.

You are only 16 and haven't even got your licence. Get out there and get some experience before thinking about seriously modding your car.

The last thing we want on this forum is another statistic :)

-Win

CAT_SPEW
03-10-2003, 11:36 PM
All are very valid points. And seeing as I have alittle while to think about it, I will think very seriously.
Becase like you said,I don't want to be another statistic.

wynode
03-10-2003, 11:54 PM
Its good to see that you are considering our advice, because its only after the years have passed and you gain experience that you realise how little you used to know!

/steps off soap box.

A'PEXi
04-10-2003, 12:41 AM
putting 17's on a civic is rice? do you even know what rice is?

bennjamin
04-10-2003, 01:07 AM
*pushes Win out of the way , steps back onto soapbox*

True true all...i am both jealous and pitiful simultaneously( taht better b how u spell it ...i havent had any sleep lol) of anyone that is on their ps'...and "owns" ( i use that term loosley) a performance car.

Seriously...it is Fooley sick to have all the loudness and the vibrating and the " i can beat that gtr-type-R-boosey-four-turbo-car running 32 psi...but nobs will always come unstuck at the stupidest moment.

For me, was haveing a clean record...been able to pull off some nice stunts ( see avoid stupid accidents and stupid mates !) ...then oneday just mis timing a turn on a road i never drove before and almost killing myself. (not to mention the car lol)

And so i took an advanced driving course, practiced many a time...even went to many a track day etc.

In the end, it dosent stop u from crashing.Even as a cocky invincible 16 year old like urself - ( dont worry...i was too...and everyone here...)

Shit happens...in a split second. Just pray that u dont kill an innocent as u pay for ur stupid hooning.
:P

BTW...dood, u should just buy a Breeze- as a "beginner driver" u get a beginner car. 8)

CAT_SPEW
04-10-2003, 09:50 AM
*pushes Win out of the way , steps back onto soapbox*

True true all...i am both jealous and pitiful simultaneously( taht better b how u spell it ...i havent had any sleep lol) of anyone that is on their ps'...and "owns" ( i use that term loosley) a performance car.

Seriously...it is Fooley sick to have all the loudness and the vibrating and the " i can beat that gtr-type-R-boosey-four-turbo-car running 32 psi...but nobs will always come unstuck at the stupidest moment.

For me, was haveing a clean record...been able to pull off some nice stunts ( see avoid stupid accidents and stupid mates !) ...then oneday just mis timing a turn on a road i never drove before and almost killing myself. (not to mention the car lol)

And so i took an advanced driving course, practiced many a time...even went to many a track day etc.

In the end, it dosent stop u from crashing.Even as a cocky invincible 16 year old like urself - ( dont worry...i was too...and everyone here...)

Shit happens...in a split second. Just pray that u dont kill an innocent as u pay for ur stupid hooning.
:P

BTW...dood, u should just buy a Breeze- as a "beginner driver" u get a beginner car. 8)

Thnx for that advice ;)
I got a GL which is close enough to a breeze. I realise that no matter how much you prepare, there is always the possibility of something going wrong. ie. a dog could run out in front of you and you swerve and have a head on with an innocent driver...

There is a whole list of things that can go wrong on the road. The best cure for these is preventing them happening in the first place. By taking one of those courses and driving safely, and not listening to your mates sitting in the back when they say "do a burnout man!!" "drag this fella off the lights you chicken!!!" etc.
I am still leaning towards getting the engine as I plan to drive as safe as I can (I know this sounds like bull$hit, but I am not making it up just to please you guys).

Thnx all and keep the comments coming :):)

[[d a n n y]]
04-10-2003, 12:42 PM
hey man i got a breeze man dint knock it ben... :x

anywayz breeze is alwayz up for a transplant :D

LatinoHatchCrap
04-10-2003, 06:32 PM
Setanta: "Please work out what torque is and then comment"
:D ___SURE!!!! Torque is a measure of twisting force, pure and simple. Torque includes no concept of motion or time. This is easily understood by anyone who has used a torque wrench. A torque wrench can measure twisting force on a bolt that is stationary or turning.

Torque is created any time opposing forces are applied at different points along a lever arm. Imagine a weightless one foot long lever arm connected at one end to a stationary pivot point. If we aply a one pound force at the other end of that lever arm a one foot pound twisting force will be exerted (one foot pound of torque). If we apply a two pound force then a two foot pound twisting force will be exerted.

Engines exert torque at the crankshaft. That torque is coupled through the transmission, driveline and ultimately to the drive axle. The twisting force at the drive axle is converted to a linear force where the tire tread meets the road surface. The linear force is measured in pounds and pushes the car forward.

We can easily calculate the linear force that accelerates the car knowing only the torque at the drive axle and the diameter of the tires.

Linear force = Axle Torque / Tire Diameter / 2

The torque exerted by the engine varies with rpm and is typically expressed as a curve. The curve is the collection of instantaneous torque measurements at each rpm point.

Neglecting driveline losses, the axle torque and linear force that pushes the car are directly proportional to the crankshaft torque for a given gear. That means that, for a given gear and neglecting air resistance, the car will always accelerate at the same rate whenever the engine is producing a given torque. It doesn't matter what RPM the engine is turning or the speed of the vehicle. A perfectly flat torque curve would allow the car to accelerate the same at any RPM.

In the real world torque curves are not flat, they build to peak and then taper off at high RPM. A car will accelerate hardest in a given gear when the engine is operating at its torque peak. Having said that driving a b16a under the 4000 rpm range does NOT YIELD MUCH TORQUE FROM THAT OF A D SERIES MOTOR *WHICH IS MY MAIN POINT*

Notice that we can figure out how hard the car is accelerating and horsepower or kilowatts doesn't even enter into the discussion. I can also go into detail about this if you want me to but thats enough for one post methinks...

Wynode: I have to agree completely with you about your post...its good and all to have fine driving experience before you learn to drive but I just dont agree that a b16a is not a good learning platform for a new driver...If you understand that this engine is mild under certain rpm range then you can drive it all day long without having any issues about excess torque at the flywheel...

CAT_SPEW: get the b16a just educate yourself about how its power curve works and if your driving skills are not up to standard keep practicing on the d15b engine until you feel confortable and then 6-12 months later install the engine, you wont get better satisfaction than driving something with guts than something with show but no go :lol: ...IMO dont get 17's you'll end up regretting it, you'll only add more unsprung weight to your car and the rolling diameter of 17's will only maker you slow(er)...

A'PEXi: ha ha ha do i really have to? there's enough rice trolling all over melbourne and sydney mate!

CAT_SPEW
04-10-2003, 07:21 PM
Lol, sounds like you know what you are talking about ;)
I would really like to get 17's later on, but how much slower would it make the car? Slower at take off, but higher top end speed?

ASnd yes I will try to educate myself a bit more on Vtec and the power curve of the engine so I know when it will kick in ;)

Thnx for your long detailed post :D

bennjamin
04-10-2003, 08:00 PM
hey man i got a breeze man dint knock it ben...

anywayz breeze is alwayz up for a transplant


Nah...ur breeze is cool man - i wish i could get my car yellow from stock...looks kinda cool :)


dun worry....u'll be able to EAT my lil d16a8 powered buzz box soon enuff 8) ...

LatinoHatchCrap
04-10-2003, 10:44 PM
hey man i got a breeze man dint knock it ben...

anywayz breeze is alwayz up for a transplant


Nah...ur breeze is cool man - i wish i could get my car yellow from stock...looks kinda cool :)


dun worry....u'll be able to EAT my lil d16a8 powered buzz box soon enuff 8) ... I agree, the breeze is equal to japanese ETI model which is the lowest of the variants of the EGs range. This means its the lightest of all the civic models however you'll encounter issues with fuel injection and wiring for the VTEC solenoid *nothing that an expert cant fix* IMO i love power windows but thats as far as it goes for me...

Dvius_Honda
06-10-2003, 04:26 AM
I did the b16a conversion in my civic. Didnt affect my insurance. Just told them and they noted it on their computer and that was it.

[G]
06-10-2003, 09:43 AM
I agree with latinohatch crap...cant see a b16a being too much of a monster to handle for a new driver. Like latino said there isnt much of a difference till u get to higher revs. And if you are worried about it just dont Rev the crap outta it till ure confident.

LatinoHatchCrap
06-10-2003, 11:07 AM
There is also another more simple way to look at it...Have a look at some of the newer D series engines such as the D16Z6 (VTI), D16Y8 (EK) and compare their litrega to the b16a,,,they're 1.6 litres :? wot does this mean? displacement is the *fulcrum* to torque, thus the old saying 'there is no replacement for displacement' and 'the bigger the better' all these three engines (and even the JDM D15B I got for sale) have awfully close torque figures but once you hit WOT in the b16a it opens up like a mofo...IMO its a challenging engine to learn how to extract the most power out of it but not a challenging engine to refine driving skills on...

-LHC

CAT_SPEW
06-10-2003, 03:41 PM
Ok, I have thought about it over the past few days but I am still undecied whether or not to do it. The way I am now thinking is that I will use this car for some road experiencxe (I realise the B16A is good for this aswell) but I am saving myself money for my next car which will be more of a performance vehicle.
I'm thiking along the lines og a Pulsar GTI-R or mabye even sticking with the civic and putting on a turbo kit etc.

So for the time being I will spend the least amnount possible on "appearence mods" until I decide whether to do the engine now, or later. Same goes with the mags although I will most probably end up getting them in about a month when the shipment comes in.

Thnx all and I'll keep use updated, and feel free to add any opinions to whether I should keep the civic later on and add more mods, or upgrade to another car? And which?
Thnx.

LUD02C
06-10-2003, 04:19 PM
Start with engine, go sleeper all the way!
Then rice it up abt :D

CAT_SPEW
06-10-2003, 04:24 PM
hehehe, don't sound like a bad idea :)

LUD02C
07-10-2003, 10:34 AM
hehehe, don't sound like a bad idea :)

Alot of people just put a bodykit on a CRX then rims etc...
Then they come to the lights next to a Prelude like mine and run and i beat them and they wonder why they lost...

As i said go sleeper then, decorate the car abit...
Then you will have a good looking car with BALLS :D

CAT_SPEW
07-10-2003, 04:02 PM
Yeh some people are liek that. But I'm different, I know that my car as is isn't very fast and will not beat or keep up with some other cars on the road.

But aside from that, I don't plan on "racing" anyone on the road anyway. I would just like the power to be there in case I get in a bad situation and need it to get out. And yes it does happen :D

Thnx.

LatinoHatchCrap
07-10-2003, 07:57 PM
Function over fashion! period...

CAT_SPEW
07-10-2003, 08:00 PM
Yup, I've decided.
I'm gonna get the egine:D:D
Now I play the waiting game and see when one comes into stock.

Setanta
07-10-2003, 11:08 PM
LOL - how many times have you decided now? :P

CAT_SPEW
08-10-2003, 03:45 PM
Lol, I was just waiting for someone to say that :D:D
But this time it is for sure. I guarantee it.