What to do about my auto box.

[nick_7g]

When I got my 04 Euro I didnt see it as a performance machine and because of this I decided to go with an Auto box.

Now that I'm looking at modding it I was wondering if anyone knows of ways to sharpen up the transmission. I'm not against a conversion if its reasonable, but i would be reluctant.

Any ideas?

[jamchen]

have u use the tip-tronic mode yet? i found it actually quite fun when playing with it...
why u want to mod the tranny anyway? if you want to improve performance.. the most direct way is to put a supercharger in..

[curik]

how does trading in your car with another 04 lux manual sound? you should get some cash out of it as well as manual depreciates more

[yfin]

As above - unless you are planning to sell the car leave the auto as it is.

You can still mod the car with the auto and the ECU upgrades (hopefully coming soon :p) all work with the auto. As for the swap - it is a waste of time and money. The other thing is query whether more than just the transmission needs to be changed to make it work properly. I say this because Honda has assigned a different part number for the ECU depending on whether it is auto or manual. Maybe that means nothing but it makes me wonder whether the maps are different.

The other thing to keep in mind is there is plenty of fun to be had improving the suspension set up - eg with sway bars, etc. Straight line speed is not everything.

[nick_7g]

Yeh, i think a conversion would be a pretty expensive and tricky way to go.

I'm sorta attached to my car now, so i dont think i'd wanna trade it. I guess i'll mod it with the auto and just be a bit different.

[aaronng]

Best way to make your auto quicker than a manual is to do up the suspension. :)

[adammet04]

Ive got an auto

and as suggested the tiptronic with VSA on/off is a lot of fun

while i havent driven a manual euro, i have a lot of fun with the auto.

Ive done a icebox intake, whiteline sway bar and eagerly waiting for certain ECU mods to be put into production as well :) (im pretty sure im on same track as yfin bout this :) )

anyway all im saying is ur not alone with modding ur auto euro :)

[nick_7g]

its good to see im not alone.

I think we're all waiting for that ECU.

Suspension is the next thing on my to do list while i wait for the engine mods. I was looking at tein (flex or SS), tanabes, or eibach+bilstein. Still gotta suss it all out.


Best way to make your auto quicker than a manual is to do up the suspension. :)

I assume you were referring to quicker around corners rather than straight line gain right?

[tanalasta]

Yes, definitely waiting for the ECU upgrade. Hopefully my dealer won't notice ... *grins* as I have a 5 year warranty.

With the automatic transmission setup, the last 500RPM of VTEC really kicks in too late for 2nd gear. Hitting it in 1st gear is all well and good but I'm way over the speed limit by the time I'm even halfway up the rev-range in second.

[BusterSonic12]

i heard before, AUTO is better for super charger or something?? stronger?? or something..

correct me if i m wrong :D

[aaronng]

Auto has better 0-20km/h acceleration than a manual too.

[jamchen]

there's comptech supercharge kit for AT euro...
but before u upgrade the power... i'd problably start mod the handling and braking..
u don't want to end up in crash coz u couldn't stop the car`

[EuroDude]

Auto has better 0-20km/h acceleration than a manual too.

Really? When I drove an Auto, it was considerably lacking from a launch :confused:
The Auto had only done 1000km but still, it shouldnt be that much slower than an Auto run-in properly.

[aaronng]

Really? When I drove an Auto, it was considerably lacking from a launch :confused:
The Auto had only done 1000km but still, it shouldnt be that much slower than an Auto run-in properly.
All the autos pull away from me, but once the revs get above 3000rpm, I catch up.

[EuroDude]

Hms not for me, I even beat a new V6 Auto Accord off the line up to the speed limit :D was very close though..

[aaronng]

Hms not for me, I even beat a new V6 Auto Accord off the line up to the speed limit :D was very close though..
I think where I live, all the housewives have a leadfoot (race to the shopping mall!). Even an auto 2.2L camry has pulled away from me and it was driven by an elderly lady.

[curik]

I suggest you should wait until the reflash for the Euro by Hondatech is out. It is about $1200. But your auto will perform better than a standard manual. Also, I love cats!

[europro]

Sorry to be ignorant but what is the ecu upgrade all about?

[EuroDude]

Sorry to be ignorant but what is the ecu upgrade all about?

Search the euro section for "hondata".

Its basically a rewritten ECU that pimps more performance from the engine, especially when adding aftermarket intake and exhaust systems.

[my_vtec77]

Hms not for me, I even beat a new V6 Auto Accord off the line up to the speed limit :D was very close though..

My auto cant even beat MR2. Shame on me..May be my driving skills' not good:o

[BiLL|z0r]

Depends on the MR2 though. The new ones are fast and some older models are supercharged. Either way they are a very light car.

[my_vtec77]

Depends on the MR2 though. The new ones are fast and some older models are supercharged. Either way they are a very light car.

You'r right.. MR2s are about 1200kg compare to Euro's 1400+ kg. The one i raced (was defeated:o ) with is about 93 model and non-turbo. Anyway, it's all about fun:p . Euro is mostly suitable for Luxury.

[destrukshn]

All the autos pull away from me, but once the revs get above 3000rpm, I catch up.
crap driver.
lol

[tony1234]

I've found that as well.Red P platers and old ladies,they're hard to keep up with!!!!

[Slugoid]

My auto cant even beat MR2. Shame on me..May be my driving skills' not good:o
There's no skill in auto....foot down and hope for the best :thumbdwn:

The auto box is just dead end in terms of performance. The gear ratios are too long and it's only really suitable for high speeds and daily commuting. 1st gear readline goes to around 60 km/h, 2nd around 120 km/h, and 3rd already 130km/h+. I rarely reach 3rd gear redline or even VTEC on suburban roads. 4th and 5th gear are cruising gears with pretty much no use for lower speeds (low meaning anything below 150km/h).

I use to drive the Euro around twisties and there's only 2 gears your can really use....2nd and 3rd. Tight twisties means one gear....2nd.

The upside to the auto is that is is very smooth and it does keep in gear and shift up and down upon demand with minimal delay. However, torque converter means shifting down won't slow you down....more like ultra slow rev match down a gear and maintaing constant speed.

So all in all, the auto box (like most auto boxes besides the real clutchless manuals like DSG and SMG etc) wasn't built with performance in mind and it never will. Might as well change to a 6MT or find something to shorten the gear ratios. Supercharger might improve the low end response, which the auto Euro really lacks :p

[aaronng]

You sure you got your speeds right? With the 6MT, 1st gear goes to 58km/h, 2nd to 98km/h and 3rd to about 130km/h.

[yfin]

You sure you got your speeds right? With the 6MT, 1st gear goes to 58km/h, 2nd to 98km/h and 3rd to about 130km/h.

Yeah, I was about to say - doesn't look right for the auto.

[Slugoid]

My mistake...I think 2nd is around 120km/h actually, and 3rd is well over 130km/h as i said before. Haven't driven the Euro for a while let alone redline it :p All I know is that I hardly reach 3rd redline and 2nd was awfully long. 1st is still around the 60km/h mark if I remember correctly. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[tony1234]

The autos just for cruising.If you want to have more driver input get a manual.Just my opinion.:)

[adammet04]

[Edit] Apologies for hijack of thread...i think this is still in the vein of it.. [Edit]


There's no skill in auto....foot down and hope for the best :thumbdwn:

The auto box is just dead end in terms of performance. The gear ratios are too long and it's only really suitable for high speeds and daily commuting. 1st gear readline goes to around 60 km/h, 2nd around 120 km/h, and 3rd already 130km/h+. I rarely reach 3rd gear redline or even VTEC on suburban roads. 4th and 5th gear are cruising gears with pretty much no use for lower speeds (low meaning anything below 150km/h).


Ok, so are you saying if i were to do the same mods as someone with a manual (eg chip/zorst/intake ) that i WOULDN'T make ANY gains? or are you saying that the gains would not be as great as a manual?

Differnt car but i did hear a guy from F1 performance saying that there IS scope in the auto commys to be even faster than the manuals..(yes 'faster' is a subjective term) i understand that im talking about the difference between an 8cyl and 4cyl..



I use to drive the Euro around twisties and there's only 2 gears your can really use....2nd and 3rd. Tight twisties means one gear....2nd.


Agreed... but how is this different to a manual? Have i misread this ?



The upside to the auto is that is is very smooth and it does keep in gear and shift up and down upon demand with minimal delay. However, torque converter means shifting down won't slow you down....more like ultra slow rev match down a gear and maintaing constant speed.


Agreed



So all in all, the auto box (like most auto boxes besides the real clutchless manuals like DSG and SMG etc) wasn't built with performance in mind and it never will. Might as well change to a 6MT or find something to shorten the gear ratios. Supercharger might improve the low end response, which the auto Euro really lacks :p

Agreed

Would it be fair to say that top end speed in an Auto Euro is not what people with these cars should be aiming for but improvements in the lowend is better?
In which case i say bring it on!. cause i will (most likely) not drag my car or heavy track duties..im more likely to have it as a street car where the speed limits are enforced neway...

Im just trying to understand ur response..as it has confused me and might have confused others..feel free to take me to school on this here or PM..im trying to learn... :cool:

apologies if this looks like a flame..im really just trying to understand it all..

[aaronng]

Basically.... the disadvantages that an auto has against a manual:

1) Longer ratios. I'm surprised that even with a 5-speed auto, the Euro's ratios are still long. I would have expected it to reach the same top speed in gear as with older 5-speed manuals.

2) Gear changes on its own. While self-upshift is not an issue with the Euro's 5AT where you can bounce off the limiter, you are still locked out of 1st gear eventhough you are at a suitable speed for it, say at 50km/h.

3) Efficiency. The torque convertor sacrifices RPM to boost torque. That's why autos are quick off the line but up top they are slower than equivalent manuals.

When is an auto better than a manual? When your engine is excessively powerful for your car, such as V8s.

They are not saying that modding an auto doesn't give you gains. They are saying that the auto starts at a performance level lower than the manual. Once you spend $5000++ on Jtune or whatever mods, you'd probably just beat a stock manual. It would make more (financial) sense to go for a manual if you wanted performance or something with a more powerful engine + auto.

[adammet04]

Thanks aarong..i understand now what you guys are saying... :)

cheers

[yfin]

Adam - re that comment by Slugoid about only 2nd gear in the auto being the most useful gear in the twisties - yes, you are right it is the same gear for the manual (well up to 100kph twisties).

The key difference is, however, the ratio. Lets say you are coming out of a 70kph corner in the auto in 2nd gear (sports shifting). You then apply full throttle once you are out of the corner onto a straight. At this point in time you are down in the rev range in 2nd gear - whereas in the manual at that same point you are much higher up in the rev range.

So even though the MT and auto cars leave the corner at the same speed and in the same gear - the MT is going to pull away in 2nd gear as it is able to make more practical use of the higher end of the rev range. Does that make sense? The gearing is quite long in the auto which dulls performance.

[aaronng]

What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.

[yfin]

What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.

You know someone in another thread said the auto red lines in 1st at 80kph?! So if that is right you should be able to SS back down to 1st. Report in auto owners...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52773&highlight=euro+auto+red+line

[Slugoid]

Basically.... the disadvantages that an auto has against a manual:

1) Longer ratios. I'm surprised that even with a 5-speed auto, the Euro's ratios are still long. I would have expected it to reach the same top speed in gear as with older 5-speed manuals.

2) Gear changes on its own. While self-upshift is not an issue with the Euro's 5AT where you can bounce off the limiter, you are still locked out of 1st gear eventhough you are at a suitable speed for it, say at 50km/h.

3) Efficiency. The torque convertor sacrifices RPM to boost torque. That's why autos are quick off the line but up top they are slower than equivalent manuals.

When is an auto better than a manual? When your engine is excessively powerful for your car, such as V8s.

They are not saying that modding an auto doesn't give you gains. They are saying that the auto starts at a performance level lower than the manual. Once you spend $5000++ on Jtune or whatever mods, you'd probably just beat a stock manual. It would make more (financial) sense to go for a manual if you wanted performance or something with a more powerful engine + auto.
Summed it up nicely. Thanks ;)

My "dead end" in terms is exactly that. By the time you spend $5K on an auto euro, you'll be only catching up to the manual Euro.

With regards to V8's. Since they have so much torque down low you don't need short gearing to keep the revs up. Hence auto has no apparent advantage over manual in V8's.



Would it be fair to say that top end speed in an Auto Euro is not what people with these cars should be aiming for but improvements in the lowend is better?
In which case i say bring it on!. cause i will (most likely) not drag my car or heavy track duties..im more likely to have it as a street car where the speed limits are enforced neway...
That's exactly what I was implying. The auto Euro has enough top end speed. Once in VTEC, they are very capable but because of the gearing in the auto, you're always out of VTEC and hence slower (what I believe).


What happens if you leave the 5AT gearbox in "2" and you floor it at 50km/h. Does it downshift to 1st? If it does, that might be an advantage over 6MT in the twisties.
It won't shift down for you if it's in sports mode. In full auto maybe, but by the time you floor it at 50km/h, it'll be over 60km/h and you'll be bogged in 2nd for a long time. The auto rarely shifts into 1st for you.....only leaves it in 1st if you floor it from a stand still.

[sodaz]

I think you can mod the auto and still have a lots of fun. The platform is not as good as the manual for modding but you can still improve the performance and handling significantly over the stock car.

Personally i don't see the point in "beating" other cars. You can improve the performance of your stock ride but there's always going to be cars out there that will beat you. No matter how you tune the Euro it still won't come close to cars like the Stis and Evos in terms of performance.

[tony1234]

sodaz is right.It's all about making your car more fun to drive.There will always be quicker cars than yours.A good handling car is always fun to drive even if it's underpowered.It's not all straight line speed.If it was we'd all be driving V8s.:p

[Omotesando]

It seems like a lot of cars do 0-100kph a fair bit faster than what they used to do.

Just read the MOTOR Bang for Your Buck issue finally - and there were so many cars in there which could do it in around 7.4-7.8s range and very low 15's for the 400m dash.
The Commodore SV6 does it in 6.8s which was surprising, the SS V8 (the BFYB Winner, just to spoil it - but a deserving winner!) now does 5.2s and 0-400 in only 13.4s. STI and EVO speed - except the last two relied on an AWD launch which prob gave it 0.5s advantage. My gosh. Even the SV6 is nearly as quick as the old V8s now.

The Auto Euro just wouldn't keep up with most of these cars, even if modded. I highly suggest a manual. Although in a rolling start, the Auto Euro isn't that bad at all. There are certain kph points in which it has some advantages, I think..

[tony1234]

It seems like a lot of cars do 0-100kph a fair bit faster than what they used to do.

Just read the MOTOR Bang for Your Buck issue finally - and there were so many cars in there which could do it in around 7.4-7.8s range and very low 15's for the 400m dash.
The Commodore SV6 does it in 6.8s which was surprising, the SS V8 (the BFYB Winner, just to spoil it - but a deserving winner!) now does 5.2s and 0-400 in only 13.4s. STI and EVO speed - except the last two relied on an AWD launch which prob gave it 0.5s advantage. My gosh. Even the SV6 is nearly as quick as the old V8s now.

The Auto Euro just wouldn't keep up with most of these cars, even if modded. I highly suggest a manual. Although in a rolling start, the Auto Euro isn't that bad at all. There are certain kph points in which it has some advantages, I think..
You need to bear in mind that the Euro is a 2.4l and that the Commorores are from 3.8l upwards.So i think it does not a bad job in trying to keep up with them.Besides who'd want to own a Commodore!Average build quality,crap resale,so many recalls and so on.

[sodaz]

It seems like a lot of cars do 0-100kph a fair bit faster than what they used to do.

Just read the MOTOR Bang for Your Buck issue finally - and there were so many cars in there which could do it in around 7.4-7.8s range and very low 15's for the 400m dash.
The Commodore SV6 does it in 6.8s which was surprising, the SS V8 (the BFYB Winner, just to spoil it - but a deserving winner!) now does 5.2s and 0-400 in only 13.4s. STI and EVO speed - except the last two relied on an AWD launch which prob gave it 0.5s advantage. My gosh. Even the SV6 is nearly as quick as the old V8s now.

The Auto Euro just wouldn't keep up with most of these cars, even if modded. I highly suggest a manual. Although in a rolling start, the Auto Euro isn't that bad at all. There are certain kph points in which it has some advantages, I think..

The Euro (Manual or Auto) wouldn't be able to keep up with ANY cars that are truly performance oriented. It just doesn't have enough power and isn't light enough. What it does have though is, refinement and a sporty ride.

[yfin]

The Euro (Manual or Auto) wouldn't be able to keep up with ANY cars that are truly performance oriented. It just doesn't have enough power and isn't light enough. What it does have though is, refinement and a sporty ride.
It depends on what the definition of "truly performance oriented" is.

And it also depends on whether you are talking about newly released vehicles or something released 5 or even 10 years ago. Some performance oriented vehicles from 10 years ago might be no match such is the development of new models in performance. It really just depends on the testing scenario - straight line, corners, top speed, etc?

The other thing is with modification you can make pretty much any car "performance oriented". Drive a CL9 with a decent suspension set up and I think you will change your opinion. The only limit to performance is your wallet and desire.

The CL9 is not that heavy either. Compare it to a Mazda 3MPS for example (also FWD) and my car is lighter. So all I need is a power boost! lol Peekays 150kw at the wheels would do just nicely (rubs my hands together with an evil laugh)...

[Omotesando]

Well the more I think about it the more happy I'm with the Euro's performance.

The thing is though, its missing 2 cylinders as someone said, compared to even an SV6, let alone a V8. However, a lot of the really fast cars out there now are actually 4 cylinders, although some have a smallish turbo on them!

I reckon, if we have just 1 more cylinder, the car will be just about perfect !

[tony1234]

Well the more I think about it the more happy I'm with the Euro's performance.

The thing is though, its missing 2 cylinders as someone said, compared to even an SV6, let alone a V8. However, a lot of the really fast cars out there now are actually 4 cylinders, although some have a smallish turbo on them!

I reckon, if we have just 1 more cylinder, the car will be just about perfect !
Whack a supercharger on it!$4000.00 approx.plus fitting from Comtech!:p

[adammet04]

awesome thread..i have learnt quite a bit

thanks yfin slugoid and arronng for your posts

in response to sodaz post i totally agree with modding to make your car more enjoyable to drive, but i would be gutted if i spent dosh on my car to find out no performance improvments could be had (engine wise)...hence my probing further of the statements made in this thread..

awesome..so it would seem the moral of the thread it is better to switch to a manual (in general) where ratios can be played with further and the gains can be achieved without worrying about power being drained due to the auto setup if you are looking for a competitive street/track car...

if your looking mod to just have fun and making small improvements to the car to make it more driveable or a bit of a sleeper keep the auto and choose wisely. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[martizzle]

how could you make the v6 i-vtec auto into manaul, i think there many possibiltys, this could be fun :)

[tony1234]

how could you make the v6 i-vtec auto into manaul, i think there many possibiltys, this could be fun :)
Too much $$$,too hard,better trade/sell auto and buy man.

[EuroDude]

There is a current 6-Speed Manual available for the J30A, but you would probably need to import the tranny and other bits and pieces from the US or Japan. Or u could probably fit a 5-speed Manual from the previous AUDM Accords (1998-2002). But being 5 Speed as well, it wont be much quicker.

But yeh, too much hassle and $$$ to be worth while. Better of selling it and getting a 6MT Euro

[aaronng]

You could try the manual transmission that is fitted to the TL. But how are you going to get an ECU for a manual V6 Accord!?