No vtec engagement sound or dip in DYNO chart.

[locote]

Theres no noticable vtec engagment sound at 4500rpm and the chart doesnt realy show much of an increase.
But when i disconect the wires of the vtec solenoid the motor wont rev as hard..
I think its my vtec cams,, Its a B18c of a automatic Jap integra..
So my question is do the automatic vtec powered cars come with smaller cams than manuals???
Also the redline on the dash of the front cut i got the motor out of redlined at 7500 not 8000 like a manual vtir..

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5600/img016im6.jpg

[tRipitaka]

as with the auto b16a's..
they come with milder cams, and a lower redline to compensate..

so i'd assume that the auto b18c variants would be the same..

[sivic]

locote - stock B18C's are fairly quiet on the VTEC engagement as they were designed to have a smooth transition.
but you can clearly see the points on your graph where the VTEC then dual runners open up. that curve looks good and really how it should for a stock engine. those figures are also what is to be expected on that dyno

[barefootbonzai]

Are you just using an auto engine with manual tranmission or you staight up just got an auto car?

I pretty sure the engines it's self are exactly the same, auto vs manual that is. Autos just lose more power going from transmission to the wheels.

[saxman]

don't know about with the b18c's, but the b16a's most certainly get a more mild cam profile, etc for the auto versions

[barefootbonzai]

you sure saxman? I've put a couple of auto engines in with manual transmisions and they make just as much power as an orginal manual. Is there any info you can link me too?

[SINISTR]

yup - at 90HP is where your vtec engages.

Ive noticed cars with VAFCs have a bigger, more noticable engagement point added with the exhaust note.

But mate - don't go by the sound - its not the sound that matters but the power.

you remember my gfs Civic when we went for a drive - the curve is quiet leanear because of a good tune. Still gets the sound when it kicks in but that was the exhaust...
http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/d/91517-5/ach.jpg

Damn... I MISS that CAR!!!!

[sivic]

actually its the dual runners which are opening up at 90hp (~5800rpm).
vtec is switching at around the 75hp (~4500rpm) mark.

[SINISTR]

actually its the dual runners which are opening up at 90hp (~5800rpm).
vtec is switching at around the 75hp (~4500rpm) mark.

:) :thumbsup:

[sivic]

btw Mike, did caz's still retain the stock IM?
its got a pretty good curve. that was tuned on microtech yeah?

[SINISTR]

btw Mike, did caz's still retain the stock IM?
its got a pretty good curve. that was tuned on microtech yeah?

yeah - stock IM and a Microtech MT8 from memory. Good tune but the ECU doesn't have straight forward ability to maintain cold start rpm - it has to be tuned to do that as well.

Too bad I never got to drive it down the 1/4! damn!

[XB-16-AX]

you sure saxman? I've put a couple of auto engines in with manual transmisions and they make just as much power as an orginal manual. Is there any info you can link me too?

i agree. i thought it all depends on the ECU ..obviously its the heart of the tuning specs right?

and the obvious would be to have a manual tranny instead of the auto one to match the manual ecu..

engine wise .. will have to be investigated..

can u source out some links? :thumbsup:

[locote]

I just installed my apexi power FC, comes with a base B18c map.
I can hear and feel vtec now the difference to stock OBD1 ECU is very noticeable, apexi must have spent a few hours on a dyno to get it running a lot better than a stock dc2 ecu..

[sivic]

the base map is for a B18CR so will definately be noticeable diff.

[locote]

Its an improvement over the JDM ITR base map right? but for a dead stock motor..
it goes hard off vtec and even harder on it:)

[saxman]

you shouldn't be feeling vtec though... in a perfectly tuned car, you wouldn't feel any difference at vtec, it'd just be a smooth increase in power. If you feel vtec kicking in strong, it means your vtec engagement is set improperly.

[gambate]

I just installed my apexi power FC, comes with a base B18c map.
I can hear and feel vtec now the difference to stock OBD1 ECU is very noticeable, apexi must have spent a few hours on a dyno to get it running a lot better than a stock dc2 ecu..

have you tune it? or dyno run the FC base map VS stock ECU?

[locote]

what rpm should vtec come in at??
the factory ECU would kik it at 4400rpm.
But the lowest the PFC will let u go is 5000rpm, ive left it a 5700, but it begins to pull at round 4000rpm then when vtec kiks in it get load and puts u into the seat..
I havent had the PFC tuned im running the built in map that it comes with.

[CUL8R]

I just installed my apexi power FC, comes with a base B18c map.
I can hear and feel vtec now the difference to stock OBD1 ECU is very noticeable, apexi must have spent a few hours on a dyno to get it running a lot better than a stock dc2 ecu..
lucky u....i couldnt find a single decent h22 map for my s300 when i started up it was nothing but issues and a had to create a new map! issues much!

[saxman]

what rpm should vtec come in at??
the factory ECU would kik it at 4400rpm.
But the lowest the PFC will let u go is 5000rpm, ive left it a 5700, but it begins to pull at round 4000rpm then when vtec kiks in it get load and puts u into the seat..
I havent had the PFC tuned im running the built in map that it comes with.
I was under the impression that stock vtec engagement was a good bit higher than that.



just messing with vtec engagement isn't a good idea... setting it that high is just making your car slower. Think about it like this... when you feela big kick in power and it suddenyl accelerates, that's because the car was slowing down before the kick.


The proper way to do this would be to take the car to a dyno, do one pull with vtec as low as it'll go, and then one with vtec engaging a good bit higher. Overlap the two maps, and see where they overlap. vtec should engage right around where that overlap occurs.

[TODA AU]

what rpm should vtec come in at??
the factory ECU would kik it at 4400rpm.
But the lowest the PFC will let u go is 5000rpm, ive left it a 5700, but it begins to pull at round 4000rpm then when vtec kiks in it get load and puts u into the seat..
I havent had the PFC tuned im running the built in map that it comes with.

Is the dyno graph you gave current or pre FC?

It's way way way too lean.
Check your fuel pump & fuel filter.
The mixtures shown are blow-up stuff.
NB: It's mixtures on the right, not torque.
Of Note: for those who want to learn about tuning, the A/F rotio tends to mirror torque when it's wrong.


I reccomend you get the car tuned properly.

[tinkerbell]

pfc will drop vtec to where-ever you want it, you just need to move the low vtec point down first.

but you might wanna leave it to a professional...

[locote]

what the heck is a low vtec point and high vtec point????

I havent touched anything i just plugged it in and had a look through the menus but didnt alter anything..
All i know is that vtec was kiking in at round 4400 4500 with stock ecu and now it comes on at round 5700 and its very noticable.
But the car seems alot more powerfull from 3500rpm onwards than before using the PFC, and even more once vtec comes in.
When does the PFC open the secondary intake runner butterflys????

[locote]

Is the dyno graph you gave current or pre FC?

It's way way way too lean.
Check your fuel pump & fuel filter.
The mixtures shown are blow-up stuff.
NB: It's mixtures on the right, not torque.
Of Note: for those who want to learn about tuning, the A/F rotio tends to mirror torque when it's wrong.


I reccomend you get the car tuned properly.

That was before i plugged the PFC in..
I was told the A/F ratio for a N/A is accepteble and normal and if it could go as high as 14.7/1.

[saxman]

14.7:1 is great for at idle... for at peak power, you should be closer to 13:1

[locote]

OK. i havent had it on the DYNO after instaling the PFC,
Itll go on the dyno once i install my skunk2 manifold for a lil touch up to remap it.
as it is now a got a lil flat spot, when i floor it and its idling is that normal for a aftermarket ecu???
On the hand controler my ignition timing drops to +2 when i floor it and them climbs i have it set to +16 at idle.

[saxman]

it should go on the dyno to remap it, not to see if your touch up worked

[tinkerbell]

what the heck is a low vtec point and high vtec point????

where the VTEC is engaged initially is "high point"

where the VTEC disengages as revs drop is "low point"

for obvious reasons, the high point must be above the low point...

But the car seems alot more powerfull from 3500rpm onwards than before using the PFC, and even more once vtec comes in.

more agressive timing perhaps?

When does the PFC open the secondary intake runner butterflys????

never.




see bold

[CUL8R]

Is the dyno graph you gave current or pre FC?

It's way way way too lean.
Check your fuel pump & fuel filter.
The mixtures shown are blow-up stuff.
NB: It's mixtures on the right, not torque.
Of Note: for those who want to learn about tuning, the A/F rotio tends to mirror torque when it's wrong.


I reccomend you get the car tuned properly.
oh shit man listen to the smart man! ur running waaaay tooooo lean!
at wot u wanna be 13.2-13.5.
14.7 is only good for idle and low rpm low loading cases.

with ur current tune when ur at WOT and get off the power do u get any crackling on the exhaust? popping? misfireing?

[locote]

No crackle snap or pop...
ok
my low vtec engagement point is set to 4400
and high is 5600rpm

[saxman]

normally engagement points are a couple hundred rpm off... not 1200

[TODA AU]

what the heck is a low vtec point and high vtec point????

Hysteresis...
Prevents hunting hanging on the vtec point.

[gambate]

with ur current tune when ur at WOT and get off the power do u get any crackling on the exhaust? popping? misfireing?

i do get some crackling at WOT ranging 7000 to 8500 rpm
...and a little popping/crackling when off the power and high rpm. this that good or bad?

[yourfather]

... well, that means that fuel isnt being completely burned in the cylinder, and is being burned once it hits the exhaust manifold. and unless you're running an anti-lag system on say, a WRC car, its generally an indicator that your engine isn't tuned properly.

[pornstar]

actually its more likely to be the sound of detonation aka ping

[gambate]

and the "knock" reading from the FC commander is about 36 at WOT, never goes above that...
the crackling at WOT happened few days ago, water temp was 60+
floored it today when water temp was 50+, did not hear any crackling but knock level is still goes to 36.

which value or number of the knock reading should it stay below?

any idea?

[locote]

HAHA
my water temp goes as high as 90c.
and my Knock sensor reads up to 100 sometimes...
Does that mean my motor is dead now???
It picks up any noise lol.
eg: my vibrating cat convertor and intake pipe.

[gambate]

lol, that is very good to hear....
my water temp only goes above 90 when standing still over 5 minutes.

[locote]

Yeah when idling for a long time...
Or if i deside to rev the crap out of it, it will go up but then once i start driving normal it comes back down.
Usualy hangs around 82 to 86 on warnish days round 80 high 70s on colder mornings.
My air temp is always round the 40 to 50c but.

[locote]

Correct me if im wrong but if u wanna hear detonation cover up your pod filter as the induction noise is to loud. u might be able to hear it but if u can hear it thats when its destroying ur engine so i would stop diving it imediatly

[CUL8R]

and the "knock" reading from the FC commander is about 36 at WOT, never goes above that...
the crackling at WOT happened few days ago, water temp was 60+
floored it today when water temp was 50+, did not hear any crackling but knock level is still goes to 36.

which value or number of the knock reading should it stay below?

any idea?
i think knock under 40 is fine under WOT

[ProECU]

Good trick for hearing detonation:

Put on a set of earmuffs (the ones that completely cover your ears) and stick your head in the engine bay when it its being ramped.

The earmuffs will filter background noise and enable you to hear higher pitched tinny noises commonly associated with knock.

This really works.

Secondly, you guys with little tuning knowledge/experience or those who want to learn more, really need to listen to the more experienced tuners here. When we say the car is lean (as per Adrian's comments) then it IS lean.

My take on that dyno graph is as follows:

1.
Observe how the blue line is richer than the red, then compare the hp graphs... Blue makes more power, suggesting combustion efficiency is greater at this level (richer) for this car (and also generally).

2.
At the vtec/IAB dip, there appears to be a large difference in a/f ratios, but that doesnt translate to more power.... it's safer to target the blue a/f line @ 13.7 as it is safer over the red alternative.
13.7 is still on the lean side, at this point you need to understand the impacts of further richening the mixtures on torque. Your tuner needs to make that assessment.
Other important factor is TIMING.... honda do interesting things to timing at vtec transition, so if you change the engagement point, timing needs to be addressed also.

3.
If I have understood the situation here properly, that dyno plot is of a stock ECU. If this is the case, I find it extremely difficult to understand why the car is so lean... you may need to investigate possible sensor problems (MAP) as the ECU may be referencing a leaner fuel column.

That should give you more to work with.

[locote]

Thanks for the info PRO...
Im not using that ecu anymore, i pluged in the power FC and the car runs alot better but i still havent had it on a dyno yet..

[sivic]

it would still be a good idea to suss the cause of the lean mix ie: sensors as ProECU mentioned, because if it is an issue with a sensor its going to translate to your PFC since its plug and play and still uses the stock sensors. therefore the problem may still persist

[locote]

umm ill do it soon.