Injector Problem Testing

[XP02ED]

Look at last page ...

[saxman]

they're not all the same flow rating, and preobd1 injectors need resistors.

[sx16]

i have fited prelude injectors in mine when i had it ;) (this was in a d16a integra 1988)
i think 90-92 prelude ones fit from memory straight bolt on:D

[saxman]

most of the honda injectors are physically compatible, however, changing injector size wihtout adjusting the ecu accordingly will cause major fuel issues, and running peak and hold injectors in a set up meant for saturated injectors or vice versa can cause major problems.

[XP02ED]

ic,

so a d16 will fit on a d15 BUT ECU wont be compatible?

but should work fine?

[saxman]

depends on which d15 and such... some use the same size injectors, so it wouldn't be doing anything.


The point is that if you're upgrading to an injector of higher flow rating, the ecu can not accurately control that. Increase the flow by 20%, and you're getting 20% more fuel across the board. Not something good.


Upgrading the fuel injectors is a supporting mod that should only be done when more fuel is needed. You won't make more power by just upgrading the injectors.

You will need to have something to adjust the fueling when you increase the injector size.

[XP02ED]

oh yeh, i aint i gues looking to upgrade i may just want to replace them, so im doing sum research.

d15b engine so better off getting a 1.5lt injector?>

for cost efficieny on petrol

[saxman]

if it's the sohc vtec d15b, the injectors should be the same size as the d16z6 ones, the b16a ones, the b18c(but not type r) ones, etc

[XP02ED]

aiigh well my current engine is

JDM d15B SOHC vtec

should fit perfectly fine in any other D series injectors ie.
d16A, im guessing but even thought his engine aint vtec it shouldnt matter right?

[[[d a n n y]]]

yes it does jay
i told u so

[saxman]

I honestly don't know what size injectors the d16a runs.


Grab some out of a d16z6, b16a(be sure it's obd1), etc

[XP02ED]

ah aiight, thanks dude.

ill grab a OBD1 injector, ill post it up in wanting to buy sooner or later ;D

[saxman]

what makes you think you need to replace your injectors?

[XP02ED]

basically i need an auto electrician to check out what the problem is with my EFI

so like it may be injectors ECU or wiring

looks like injectors arent firing out petrol so it may be blocked but dont think all 4 injectors will be blocked?

waiting for someone to doa pulse test on it aye

[saxman]

if all 4 aren't firing, I HIGHLY doubt it has anything to do with the injectors.

[XP02ED]

yeh thats what i thought ias well, im thinking wiring?

ECU looks fine, it reports errors and stuff?

would me cranking the car and doing a test on the wires be sufficient? or should i do a pulse test? which may cost to grab someone to do

[XP02ED]

ok i did a test.

i put my car on (just before ignitiating the engine, so electrical would go on right..

got the ECU out and got a tester which lights up if the line is active

plugged it into

A1,A2,A3,A5 for the injectors it didnt light up? is this normal?

i found this kool spreadsheet which tells me the wires

http://www.ff-squad.com/tech/wiring/obd1.ecu-pinout.zip

pss i knoe theres power going into it i tested other lines which was active so it cant be that there is no power going to the ECU

[saxman]

are you getting fuel pressure at the fuel rail?

When you turn the engine to the on position, do you hear an audible click? Does the check engine light come on for a couple seconds and turn off?

My guess is that there isn't an audible click a second or 2 after the key is turned to on, and the cel comes on and stays on.

[XP02ED]

well...

the rails and fuel is pumping petrol..
opened fuel rail and took injectors out theres petrol in there and pumping into it

im not sure about the engine light how do i check that out?

issit normal for the wires not to be active when its on

btw thanks alot dude ;D

to make certain i guess what the actual problem is.

how can i tell what ECU i have? this is a JDM d15B engine with im guess stock ecu with it? there a way or a code i need to look for on the ecu!

[saxman]

if you're getting fuel at the rail, disregard what I'm saying.

The way to check the engine light like I was suggesting is to put the key in the ignition, turn it to on, and look at the check engine light.

[XP02ED]

which one is that?

im a noob ;D

if you could provide pics of a tacho and circle it i can see!

what would you think it is.

if the rail is getting petrol
injectors arent injecting

[fatboyz39]

u dont have a check engine light cuz u have a aftermarket cluster. U need to get an OEM one...

As for injectors, i reckon doing an continuty test to see if the wires are not cut or splice anywhere from the ECU to the injectors

[XP02ED]

yeh

i tried to eck out the wire to the injectors, but i guess no time during weekdays

ill have to get an auto electrician to check it out, but i got a mechanic whos gna do the pulse testing for me to see if there sufficient power to the injectors, i guess this will determine if its a wiring problem or ECU.

trying to find out what ECU i have, i think from research its a p28 but not certain.

from research

i found this :

US version (smog test required ), ECU P28.
JDM version P08 ECu but little lean on the gas.
Could use P06 but got to be chipped for vtec sensor

is this correct?

how can i tell what ECU i currently have, i think i got p28

[CRXer]

ok i did a test.

i put my car on (just before ignitiating the engine, so electrical would go on right..

got the ECU out and got a tester which lights up if the line is active

plugged it into

A1,A2,A3,A5 for the injectors it didnt light up? is this normal?

i found this kool spreadsheet which tells me the wires

http://www.ff-squad.com/tech/wiring/obd1.ecu-pinout.zip

pss i knoe theres power going into it i tested other lines which was active so it cant be that there is no power going to the ECU

The ecu grounds the injectors thru the A1,A2,A3,A5 wires so by the sounds of it your using a test light,it will not light up because the voltage has already dropped across the injector coil.Your effectively testing 0V at the ecu,which is what your tester is reading,ie no light.

You need to test at the injectors the other wire that is the same colour on all 4 injectors.Turn ignition on,dont start engine,& see if there is 12V on these wires.If not,then start looking at the main relay.Or post back the result & we will try & narrow it down a bit further.

Can you here the fuel pump prime when u turn on ignition?

Look at the white sticker on the side of the ecu to identify it,if no sticker I think its marked on the PCB inside the ecu,or even maybe close to the connectors on the PCB,u might be able to see it without opening it up,cant quite remember....

[XP02ED]

hey dude! thanks for reply as well,

yeh i hear petrol pumping im pretty sure the fuel pump isnt a problem. basically removed the injectors (i didnt) someone else did, and petrol poured out

aiight ill do a test right on the injectors, meaning i might need to cut it or open the wire? wires in the engine bay right.

would you know what wire it would be? or am i looking for a wire which is identical on all 4 injectors

[CRXer]

hey dude! thanks for reply as well,

yeh i hear petrol pumping im pretty sure the fuel pump isnt a problem. basically removed the injectors (i didnt) someone else did, and petrol poured out

aiight ill do a test right on the injectors, meaning i might need to cut it or open the wire? wires in the engine bay right.

would you know what wire it would be? or am i looking for a wire which is identical on all 4 injectors

Just unclip the plugs from the injectors & test the pins.

Test from pin attached to the same colour wire that appears on all 4 plugs(most likely yellow with black stripe) to ground.Should be 12V with the ignition turned on.

[XP02ED]

hmmm unclip it? how do ya do that! never done it before! << ill try it tmz morning!

so im gna be looking for a wire most likely yelo and black which connects from the ECU to injectors? is that what ya mean!

so what i should be doing >

turn car on (dont ignitiate)
unplug clips
test positive wire for each injector to see if the lines active!

correct me if im wrong please!

[CRXer]

Pull the little wire clip off the injector plug,careful they fly off into places that are very hard to find,& u can then pull the plug from the injector.

The "most likely" yellow/black wires dont go to the ecu,they go to the main relay.They are the 12V power source for the injectors.

Yes turn ignition on,no need to start engine,well u couldnt anyway with no injectors,Put one probe of the meter on the yell/blk pin inside the plug & the other probe on a good ground(bit of shiny metal on the engine block somewhere or batt neg terminal) & see if it reads 12V or light on your tester lights up,etc.
Repeat for all 4 injectors to make sure.

If the result is good,turn ignition off,then disconnect plug from ecu(make sure u do this first),then bridge 2 pins of injector plug togethor with a bit of wire,turn ignition on again & see if u got 12V at the 4 wires at the ecu u mentioned earlier.Disconnect bridges in the injector plugs before u put plug back into ecu.This will tell u if the wires are broken or not.

[XP02ED]

ooo thanks for the details description, i got no time during the week to test this, will do this on weekend and let you know what happened.

BTW i check out what ECU i have i got a p08 on the serial so im guessing its a p08...

so just to be clear

injectors > main relay > ECU?

is that the wiring diagram? i knoe the colour of the wire changes each section it goes to. ill have to follow the wire but it may be hard with all the harnesse's covering it up and i guess i dont wna cut anything up, but if worste comes to worste ill need to!

[CRXer]

Yes p08 seems right for the D15.


injectors > main relay > ECU?

I dont know what u mean by this?
The wires dont flow this way if thats what your asking.
Injectors get there power supply from a pwer supply which also feeds into the main relay.The wire going to the injectors usually taps off from a pin on the main relay before it goes into the relay.(the yell/blk wire).
The 4 different coloured wires at the injectors go directly back to the ecu.

Wires will not change colour unless the motor has been swapped in,etc.

And no need to cut any wiring to test it,find the fault first & then chop as a last resort if u really cant find the fault,just test at the wiring plugs.

Would prob be a good idea if u can borrow a multimeter or buy one(very cheap ones at jaycar,supercheap,etc will be ok for your purposes) prob get them for like $10-$20.Will make your life a whole lot easier than that test light.

[XP02ED]

woot thanks very usefull info!

ok i habnt inspected yet, waiting for saturday! i think i may need an auto electrician but.. what i understand

the 2 wires from each injector isnt + and - which i thought
they are both positive wires. 1 from battery/power supply and the other positive going straight to the ECU.

is this correct?

ill have a look on the weekend to purchase one, might as well i think ill need one in the future

[CRXer]

Yell/blk(or what ever common colour on injectors u have is "+",ie 12V,& all 4 wires are joined at one of the shock tower engine plugs,& then a single wire from the main relay supplies this joint with 12V.

The other 4 wires go straight back to ecu & are "-",ie 0V,The ecu connects all these 4 wires to ground in turn to fire the injectors,so u will just want to test these wires are continuous,ie unbroken.Test as i previously described or use your new multimeter set on ohms to see if they give a figure of between 0-1 ohms,when u touch the probes to both ends of the wire(get a long piece of spare wire to join at one end to do this simply,so u can form a loop)

[XP02ED]

oh so the ground wires are going to the ECU, so no wonder why i wouldnt of got light on it right? or wrong?

so basically all i need to do

test wires from battery to injectors if thats active.. pretty easy just the regular wire test right..

then ill need to check the ground wires from injectors to ECU do a test on these wires using the multimeter or the same tester to see if its acive (dont quite get how ill test these wires)

i dont get what mean by "when u touch the probes to both ends of the wire(get a long piece of spare wire to join at one end to do this simply,so u can form a loop)"

im not familiar with this stuff aye!

[CRXer]

oh so the ground wires are going to the ECU, so no wonder why i wouldnt of got light on it right? or wrong?

so basically all i need to do

test wires from battery to injectors if thats active.. pretty easy just the regular wire test right..wire from main relay(not battery) to injectors,turn ignition on,put multi on 12V scale,put black probe on ground,ie neg bat terminal,engine block bare metal or chassis bare metal,touch red probe to yell/blk pin inside connector,& see if u get 12V

then ill need to check the ground wires from injectors to ECU do a test on these wires using the multimeter or the same tester to see if its acive (dont quite get how ill test these wires)U need to test that the wire is unbroken,so if u get a long bit of wire,wrap it around one of the injector plug pins of the wire your testing(or get a friend to hold it on there),that way u will have one long continuous bit of wire which multi probes will be able to reach both ends of to test,well hopefully it will be continuous.Concentrate more on testing the power,yell/blk, wires ,cos if all 4 injectors arent firing,then its highly unlikely that all 4 ecu wires are broken,unless a plug has come loose at the engine shock towers or ecu.These are stock injectors we are talking about isnt it,theyve never been changed before? Ive forgotten.

i dont get what mean by "when u touch the probes to both ends of the wire(get a long piece of spare wire to join at one end to do this simply,so u can form a loop)"

im not familiar with this stuff aye!


see blue bits

[XP02ED]

wow ok i understand now! yeh there stock injectors, havnt touched anything yet...

well thanks alot dude ill go try things out and see how it goes, ill let you know what happens! thanks alot!

from what i can tell

Battery > injectors for +

Injectors > ECU for -

is this correct?

[XP02ED]

ok i did a test on the injectors this morning as i had time

i turned the car on after i removed the clips from the injector to test if the line was active

i didnt get a signal

i directly tested it by pointing the tester into the clip as shown as this link :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/julzi3e/testing.jpg

is there a problem?

[CRXer]

Firstly test the tester is working.

Hook up the black wire off the tester to a good ground(cant see in the photo whether u did this or not but i assume u did).

Then touch the tester on the battery positive terminal to make sure it lights up & is working correctly(Do this with any test equipment to make sure its good,before it leads u down the wrong path).If it lights up & is working correctly,leave the ground clip(black wire on tester) where it was because u at least know it is grounded correct where it is.

Did u test both pins in the plug?
i assume u did this as well.
Is the common wire between all 4 injectors yel/blk like weve been discussing?

If still no light on tester when u done all this,then next step is to look at the main relay & possibly after this look at the ignition switch.If u confidently can hear the fuel pump prime when u first turn on ignition than ignition switch will be ok & its definitely a prob with one of the coils in the main relay.

Find the main relay & u will possibly see 3 yel/blk wires.One will be by itself(this will be the fuel pump wire,ignore this wire).
The other 2 yel/blk wires will be joined to the same pin(one goes to the injectors(branches off to all 4 injects at the shock tower) & the other goes to the ecu)
Turn ignition on & in the same manner as above ,test that your tester lights up when u touch these 2 yel/blk wires at the pin.Dont forget to test tester first by touching it to the little bit of exposed metal on top of the fuses under dash(a few of them should make it light up with ignition on,not all)

If still nothing,test the blk/yel wire on the main relay makes the tester light up.If it does than u need to either read this DIY (by ECU-MAN again) (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31796&highlight=main+relay)
or borrow or buy a new main relay.

Go thru all the stuff above before buying anything thou & dont forget ALWAYS TEST THE TESTER

[XP02ED]

yup!
tested both plugs and the ground, tester works.

yup it was yelo/blk on all injectors and i tested both wires to be sure.. no light appear!

yeh ignitions is definately working and so is the petrol pumping, as fuel rails have petrol pumping into it and removed the pipe thats goes to the rails and got petrol pumping out.

gmmm wheres the main relay or what is the mail relay? is this the wiring harness? where should i be looking for this!

yup tester works, i grounded it to the battery!

[CRXer]

Main relay shown in this thread click here (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31796&highlight=main+relay)
Could be black colour also,instead of grey.

It would be just above your hood release lever I think in an EG,got an 8 pin plug plugged into it with only 7 pins used.

Just try to pull the plug out of it for test or u might have to unbolt it from its mount to get access to it if its jammed in anything like mine

[XP02ED]

aiight looks like ill have to give that a go tmz!


what will i be looking for in this main relay?

would someone comming doing a pulse test on injectors save alot of trouble?

[CRXer]

Find the main relay & u will possibly see 3 yel/blk wires.One will be by itself(this will be the fuel pump wire,ignore this wire).
The other 2 yel/blk wires will be joined to the same pin(one goes to the injectors(branches off to all 4 injects at the shock tower) & the other goes to the ecu)
Turn ignition on & in the same manner as above ,test that your tester lights up when u touch these 2 yel/blk wires at the pin.Dont forget to test tester first by touching it to the little bit of exposed metal on top of the fuses under dash(a few of them should make it light up with ignition on,not all)

If still nothing,test the blk/yel wire on the main relay makes the tester light up.If it does than u need to either read this DIY (by ECU-MAN again) (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31796&highlight=main+relay)
or borrow or buy a new main relay.



Before we go any further u have checked the ECU fuse in the engine bay fuse box havent u,I just always assumed this?

A pulse test is useless,cos uve already determined that there is no power getting to the injectors

[XP02ED]

oh really, oh aiight sweet

BWAHAH yeh i have i checked that the ECU fuse isnt broken

well i habnt replaced it or changed it to make sure, should i? maybe i should!

so basically since i got no light commming out of the injector lines no point doing a pulse test ! cool! saved me money!

[CRXer]

Triple check the ECU fuse will save any further hassle if thats the prob.

Touch your tester on both bits of exposed metal on top of the fuse one at a time when its still in place & see if the tester lights up.

[XP02ED]

aiight ill check that out, i might just buy a new packet and replace it just to be sure as well

ok so basically now once i tripple checked the fuses.

i go to the main relay and look for ..


the shock tower = where the wires connect to FROM the injectors. from this shock tower it becomes one wire? is this correct? which then connects to the main relay?

there will be 2 wires comming FROM the main relay one going to ECU and other going to the shock tower!

if im correct please tell me! so i know if im getting the layout of the wiring end!

[CRXer]

aiight ill check that out, i might just buy a new packet and replace it just to be sure as well

ok so basically now once i tripple checked the fuses.

i go to the main relay and look for ..


the shock tower = where the wires connect to FROM the injectors. from this shock tower it becomes one wire? is this correct? which then connects to the main relay?

there will be 2 wires comming FROM the main relay one going to ECU and other going to the shock tower!

if im correct please tell me! so i know if im getting the layout of the wiring end!

Yes all correct,u will prob find some spare fuses in the fuse boxes unless u used them up already.Or just pinch one from the power windows,rear defog or similar & test it briefly,doesnt matter what size it is for just testing puposes,just put the correct one in before starting it or driving.

[XP02ED]

aiight sweet as! thanks dude will give it ago, i may need to replace fuses so i might as well buy a pack..

will give and test all this tmz and take some pictures, might help to determine stuff for me to show what i do! will keep it posted up!

thanks for all the help! much appreciated dude!

[CRXer]

yes,pics make it alot easier

[XP02ED]

ok no a dumb question ready that post and about the relay
he said it can be found under the glove box!

is this where i find it?

btw will i need to unplug the harness to check the main relay wires, im assumin no becaus no power will be put into it,

so im guessing there should be metal bits ontop of the plug to do the test

[CRXer]

ok no a dumb question ready that post and about the relay
he said it can be found under the glove box!

is this where i find it?

btw will i need to unplug the harness to check the main relay wires, im assumin no becaus no power will be put into it,

so im guessing there should be metal bits ontop of the plug to do the test

no,some models are under the glove box,but yours Im fairly sure is above the hood release lever,I removed one from a DC2 recently & I should imagine it would be similarly placed to yours.

Get down near the lever & look up under the dash u should be able to see it.U might be able to test it without removing the plug or relay itself if u can see what your doing.

Heres a pic of where mine lives ,It should be mounted up where u see the wires coming from.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/CRXer/IMG_1255_1_1.jpg

Also below u can see the 2 yel/blk wires joined to the same pin(2nd pin from top left) & u should be able to touch your tester on the exposed metal of the pin from underneath without removing anything as u can see the metal of the other pins as an example.If u cant reach it u'll have to pull it out to test.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/CRXer/IMG_1256_2_1.jpg

[XP02ED]

ok so i did what ya said.. i marked down what i got with red, getting a response back so i got a light back as shown on pic below :

so it seems that its working? this correct? ALTHOUGH sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt?.. how i tested it was by turning car on then putting my liught tester to each one i got a response from 4. 1 is definately the petrol which was the green wire

http://xposed.au.com/carproblems/1.jpg

so basically i further investigate this. i TRIED to follow the wire in the car. but the harness stopped me, so im now sure where it goes out from? issit from the front drivers side or passenger side (which follows the harness across the front) or directly outside

i THINK its the drivers side please confirm.. although i followed this wire right which lead me to this :

http://xposed.au.com/carproblems/6.jpg

after finding this wire, i assumed it was the black on yellow SINGLE wire i see. NOT the HUGE one which i think the starter motor uses but a regular wire.

so i tested if it was active which i saw it was. before and after plug.

NOW where i got confused there is an extra plug which isn't connected anywhere WHICH the black on yellow wire connects to. which the plug produces 5 more wires. 1 going to something below the air thingo. and the other 4 markes with black dots as well going to injectors!

as shown here :

http://xposed.au.com/carproblems/5.jpg

NOW dont call me crazy BUT this plug isnt connected anywhere for the 4 lines to be active which go to injectors! IS this the pROBLEM!

here is a pic of the missing plug connecting nowehere! IS THIS NORMAL? i habnt tested these lines to see if its active as my tester DIED!

http://xposed.au.com/carproblems/7.jpg

basically what im thinking is that the lines to injector may not be working because it isnt getting any current in to as the line to it isnt plugged or joint to any other wire? am i guess right?

if im wrong please tell me!

if someone could please tell me how the wiring from the injectos (black on yellow) wires go the main relay! or issit direct going via harness if so can i put a direct line which goes to it to test if the injectors squirt?

also how does the other 4 wires from the injectors connect to the ECU? direct? or does it lead to anything

[CRXer]

Dude...u just found your prob,well done.

Tests at the main relay were correct results.

That mystery plug your holding with all the yel/blk wires coming out of it is the connection point I been talkin bout at the shock tower.

Somehow the connecting plate has falling out of it, see the pics of mine below

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/CRXer/IMG_1260_1_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/CRXer/IMG_1262_3_1.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/CRXer/IMG_1261_2_1.jpg

the plug should have a piece in the top of it which joins all the yel/blk wires together.
You will either have to source this piece from somewhere or a quick fix would be to just cut the plug off & join all the wires together & solder them or use a mechanical connector of some sort.U could even just twist & tape them together for know to see if u can get it started.

[XP02ED]

yeh i figured that out and i ended up cutting it up and basically connecting all the 5 wires to the 1 wire..

which started the car BUT now i got an idling problem where i need to keep accelerating for it to work, im assuming timing? or other stuff anyhow im gna get a mechanic to finish this job

that extra wire where and what does that do?

anywaiz DUDE! THANKS ALOT! i appreciate your help! hopefully i get my car started in the next week and finished

so at the long run, nothing was actually wrong, the person who installed the harness didnt fix the injectors, i axctually told him what the plug does and he quoted dw about that it exactly like mine, its missing that plug

obviously that plug was something i needed to worry about!

[CRXer]

If u mean the extra yel/blk wire from the plug it will feed power onto your IACV (Idle Air Control Valve) the thing on the back of the manifold i think your talking about.Without this, of course your cars not gonna idle to well.

[XP02ED]

OMG

so this wire is causing my idling problems? OMG! cool thats another problem solved i had no idea, all i wanted to fix was my injectors! serzly dude! u rock! thanks!!

now looks like im gna create another thread to install VTEC

i get an error 22 and 23 i think on ECU? regarding sensors and vtec

i got a few links to show me how to do itbut i guess thats the next step after i get my car working!

[CRXer]

Yeah,new thread for the VTEC,maybe retitle this one "injectors not working" or something in case someone else having probs.

[XP02ED]

will do! thanks alot dood! hopefully other people find this helpfull :D