Euro - Icebox Intake Idea

[sodaz]

Hi guys,

I was thinking of ways to improve the icebox and I came up with this idea.
With an Injen CAI you get more top end power but lose on the low end (less throttle response). With SRI, you get heatsoak unless you can get a continous flow of cold air to the pod. With the Comptech icebox you lose a small amount of power at the low range but in return you get much better throttle response, but the peak power gain is not as good as the other two designs.

I believe the improvement in throttle response using the comptech icebox has a lot to do with the fact that there's always a huge volume of cold air available for the engine to suck in (larger box). It's possible to put a pod inside the icebox but since it's enclosed in a small area it will definitely not work as efficiently as having it out in the open (I've confirmed this with an engineering friend of mine). The gruppe M intake has an excellent heat shield which prevents hot air from reaching the pod, but since it doesn't have a reserve of air available like an airbox, the gains will still remain in the mid to high range.

I've drawn up something really crude with paint to illustrate my idea. It's basically an airbox with a pod attached in the wheel well area like a CAI. The airbox should act a buffer for the engine to get cold air at any instant and the pod filter should allow better air penetration at high rev ranges, giving better top end gains.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b209/betty0blue/Intake.jpg

None of this is proven and it's really just a theory. Time for some constructive discussion guys! :D

[EKVTIR-T]

I have tried set-up 2 and found it lost response/power all thru the rev range.Kinda feels like its harder for the engine to pull air thru that set-up.Just my impression.

[Chris_F]

Good idea!, i think you could give it a try and see if it works since no one has tried this on a euro before.

EKVTIR-T has a good point in that it may be harder to suck air through than a straight pipe but it may also give some benifits to the lower end torque of the car.

[sodaz]

Yeah i might give it a try since it's not really that hard to setup. :D

[Chris_F]

make sure you let us know how it goes

[BusterSonic12]

do you mean fitting a SRI on the end of the comptech inlet horn??

[Tobster]

I have tried set-up 2 and found it lost response/power all thru the rev range.Kinda feels like its harder for the engine to pull air thru that set-up.Just my impression.
That's what I would expect to happen.

Think of it this way: if you suck on a straw, you can draw in a certain amount of air/liquid. If you suck on a straw that goes to a chamber that then tries to draw in more air/liquid from somewhere else, then it's going to have a much harder time drawing it in due to pressure differences.

Irrigation systems use this sort of chambered system to reduce water pressure, and I imagine an engine will have a much harder time trying to draw in the air.

[stephen8512]

^exactly was tobster said. i agree with that theory and analogy

[|N|]

heard of air turbulance??

[aaronng]

In order to suck in air in with sufficient acceleration, you need a vacuum to draw it. The vacuum occurs at the cylinder volume, through the intake valve, to the intake plenum, intake manifold, throttle body and then the intake arm. That air box without a filter will mask the pressure drop because of the larger volume over the length. So you have vacuum in the intake arm, while the volume of air in the airbox compensates of the pressure drop. Since the volume of the airbox is large enough to sufficiently mask the pressure drop, there will be a smaller pressure drop at the pod. A smaller pressure difference = less acceleration of the air across the filter.

Why does this happen? Because of the small cross-sectional area of the piping before the pod relative to the airbox. Why doesn't the Comptech airbox suffer the same? Because the filter is located in the airbox which has a larger cross-sectional area and volume.

[sodaz]

In order to suck in air in with sufficient acceleration, you need a vacuum to draw it. The vacuum occurs at the cylinder volume, through the intake valve, to the intake plenum, intake manifold, throttle body and then the intake arm. That air box without a filter will mask the pressure drop because of the larger volume over the length. So you have vacuum in the intake arm, while the volume of air in the airbox compensates of the pressure drop. Since the volume of the airbox is large enough to sufficiently mask the pressure drop, there will be a smaller pressure drop at the pod. A smaller pressure difference = less acceleration of the air across the filter.

Why does this happen? Because of the small cross-sectional area of the piping before the pod relative to the airbox. Why doesn't the Comptech airbox suffer the same? Because the filter is located in the airbox which has a larger cross-sectional area and volume.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there mate. Can you please simplify it a bit? :angel:

[aaronng]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there mate. Can you please simplify it a bit? :angel:
Resistance to airflow is at the filter. To overcome the resistance you need a pressure drop. The empty airbox will mask that pressure drop, so there will be less suction across the filter.

[as001]

A GruppeM setup with a the comptech horn attached would better then this hybrid setup imo the main restiction is the size of the icebox much less volume then compare with a Gruppe setup has a larger vacum area in sucking more cooler air in especially if had duct to area where cooler air is coming in from the front of the car the power loss on the bottom end associated with the INJEN type setups is most likely the length of the pipe but as they are designed more track orientated use then they rarely see below 3000rpm so bottom end loss is not an issue its all about compromise.

If you want more noise from the comptech icebox setup wack a k&n panel filter i dont know if there is any gains but its much louder then with the uni filter that came with it.

[aaronng]

If you want more noise from the comptech icebox setup wack a k&n panel filter i dont know if there is any gains but its much louder then with the uni filter that came with it.
It's louder because the K&N does not fit the comptech icebox properly. There is an intake leak past the filter. Once you fix it by adding rubber strips around the airbox-filter mating faces, it sounds the same as the uni filter.

[sodaz]

A GruppeM setup with a the comptech horn attached would better then this hybrid setup imo the main restiction is the size of the icebox much less volume then compare with a Gruppe setup has a larger vacum area in sucking more cooler air in especially if had duct to area where cooler air is coming in from the front of the car the power loss on the bottom end associated with the INJEN type setups is most likely the length of the pipe but as they are designed more track orientated use then they rarely see below 3000rpm so bottom end loss is not an issue its all about compromise.

If you want more noise from the comptech icebox setup wack a k&n panel filter i dont know if there is any gains but its much louder then with the uni filter that came with it.

I'm not really interested in adding more noise. Instead I'm looking at whether the existing intakes can be improved. Aaron is right. The k&n panel filter is louder because it doesn't seal properly.

According to the guys at the TSX forum, a k&n filter with the icebox is louder until you seal it properly - then it's almost like stock. But they guy who did this also said that it doesn't rev as well as the foam filter. As we all know, the k&n filter has better flow than the foam filter. So why does the engine not want to rev as hard?

[BusterSonic12]

what about ITG filter?? does that fit properly? is the performance better than the foam filter?

[sodaz]

what about ITG filter?? does that fit properly? is the performance better than the foam filter?

I've got the ITG filter for my icebox and it think it intially performs slightly better than the foam filter but once you drive it a bit longer the throttle seems to lag a bit more. I showed one of my engineerring friends the ITG filter and the first thing he commented on was how thick it was. Even though the website claims that it's a high flow filter he believes there's less airflow than a good pleated filter. I did a test with a hair dryer at home and it seems like the stock honda filter provides the most air flow, second best was the uni foam filter and the last was the ITG filter.

Noise wise it's a fair bit louder than the uni filter setup but that could be due to improper sealing so i'm not sure.

[aaronng]

what about ITG filter?? does that fit properly? is the performance better than the foam filter?
The difference between the ITG and uni filter is that ITG has 3 layers of foam of different densities so that it helps increase airflow while maintaining filtration efficiency. But you have to clean that ITG filter regularly every 6 months.

[BlitZ]

there is exactly the same design for the EK on the DIY CAI air box trick on the forum...

Got given the thumbs down by everyone...


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it basically wouldnt be good.. if would only be ok if you bypass the internal of the air box with a pipe and not jsut open space..

[Omotesando]

I've got the ITG filter for my icebox and it think it intially performs slightly better than the foam filter but once you drive it a bit longer the throttle seems to lag a bit more. I showed one of my engineerring friends the ITG filter and the first thing he commented on was how thick it was. Even though the website claims that it's a high flow filter he believes there's less airflow than a good pleated filter. I did a test with a hair dryer at home and it seems like the stock honda filter provides the most air flow, second best was the uni foam filter and the last was the ITG filter.

Noise wise it's a fair bit louder than the uni filter setup but that could be due to improper sealing so i'm not sure.


Well all website always claim their product is superior.
Honestly, show me a website which advertises their product is not as good as a competitors' one!

I've use foam based filters before, I don't want to touch one again in the long run. The reason is because for them to 'filter well', they got to be more dense and have more layers, which impedes airflow. That's why there are high performance foam based filters out there, as well as high filtering ones.

Of course, this theory applies all types of filters. So in conclusion, I'll pick a filter with the biggest surface area (such as, original paper filter!) instead in most cases. :D

[yfin]

I've got the ITG filter for my icebox and it think it intially performs slightly better than the foam filter but once you drive it a bit longer the throttle seems to lag a bit more. I showed one of my engineerring friends the ITG filter and the first thing he commented on was how thick it was. Even though the website claims that it's a high flow filter he believes there's less airflow than a good pleated filter. I did a test with a hair dryer at home and it seems like the stock honda filter provides the most air flow, second best was the uni foam filter and the last was the ITG filter.

Noise wise it's a fair bit louder than the uni filter setup but that could be due to improper sealing so i'm not sure.
The thickness of the ITG and its triple layer is the best things about the design. Once I saw the ITG I knew the unifilter I had with the Icebox was not doing enough filtration - it is sooooo thin.

As for differences in performance - the panel filters are pretty much the same from what I can tell. Perhaps with ECU tuning the differences in air flow will be more apparent. On the Hondatech site I saw a comment that they saw up to 5% differences in air flow with different air intake designs (not sure which ones they tested). It would be useful to know. Peekay is getting some pretty awesome power to the ground at the moment with the Icebox/ITG so probably not much point fiddling around with my setup if it has proven to work on his tuned car.

[sodaz]

Reviving a rather old post. I just realised why the A&J tsuchinoko intake is that shape. It's a combination of an airbox and tube style CAI. I haven't actually driven a car with one but i would imagine that it would have better low end response than a tube style (Injen/K&N) CAI and a better top end than an airbox.

http://www.aj-racing.com/catalog/files/d_1583.jpg

[aaronng]

Reviving a rather old post. I just realised why the A&J tsuchinoko intake is that shape. It's a combination of an airbox and tube style CAI. I haven't actually driven a car with one but i would imagine that it would have better low end response than a tube style (Injen/K&N) CAI and a better top end than an airbox.

http://www.aj-racing.com/catalog/files/d_1583.jpg

Uhh.. it's called an SRI? AEM V2 uses a similar concept with different diameters along the length.

[sodaz]

Uhh.. it's called an SRI? AEM V2 uses a similar concept with different diameters along the length.

Obviously the one in the pic before wasn't in CAI mode. But look at this pic:

http://www.jsracing.co.jp/js3/gal/WriteIMG.asp?xMODE=L&FName=blog%5Fnews%2F061021%2Ejpg

http://www.jsracing.co.jp/js3/gal/WriteIMG.asp?xMODE=L&FName=blog%5Fnews%2F061021%2D2%2Ejpg

[cvetko111]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there mate. Can you please simplify it a bit? :angel:

He is saying that trottle response will drop, and you will lose some power (hp). Your car will bee slow like some dead animal. It is not the way to gain some power, but it is the way to release some hp. Try and you will see.

[aaronng]

^^ that's a fat CAI then.

[sodaz]

^^ that's a fat CAI then.

ROFL!! One that's visited Macca's too many times.