Supercharged vs Turbocharged Video

[WhiteAP1]

Camera car is running 11.5 psi with Vortech SC and Black car has inlinePRO kit with GT35 pushing 17 psi.

http://www.s2000turbo.com/videos/sc_vs_turbo2.wmv

[BRU51N]

that turbo one sounds a trillion times better.. if the forced induction was roughly the same.. why would people bother with the superchargers?

i reckon they're just a waste of money. turbo's the go!:thumbsup:

[jdmlvn]

rich bastards with their carbon fibre door trim.

- go on, watch the clip again.. LOL

[chunky]

super charger fo sho man
*** heavy ass turbo

[WhiteAP1]

super charger fo sho man
*** heavy ass turbo


The owner of the supercharged S stated (on S2ki.com) that to get more power out of his car he would have to spend the same amount that a new turbo setup would cost, and he still wouldnt be as quick. U do the math.

[AusS2000]

The SCs are popular because they are a simple bolt on kit you can do in your garage. Ask me how I know.

[integrity]

aus if i get a kit you can bolt it on for me ...
and dw ill help and also get you a bottle of scotch

[AusS2000]

Sure, but it's more like a case of scotch for that job.

[integrity]

lolz ... done buddy
thanks for helping with my thread in S2Ki buddy

[Shraka]

Turbochargers and Superchargers are two totaly different beasts. It's like comparing NA and Forced induction. The SC will produce less power, that's a given. Turbochargers are just more efficient. However, the SC wont have nearly the lag the Turbo does. If the SC is set up right, it should feel almost like N/A, but with a whole bunch more power for your displacement.

[AusS2000]

Thanks Shraka, but Centrifugal and Positive Displacement SCs are also totally different beasts. As the two availble kits for the S are centrifugal what you say above doesn't really apply to the S.

[WhiteAP1]

Dont the Computech and Vortech S/C kits kick in at about 6k RPM. Im sure u could get a Turbo to spool up earlier than that. So much for lag.

[Matyi]

I was under the impression that SCs make boost from just above idle, and are on full boost by like 2500rpm..

[WhiteAP1]

Yeah most supercharges do, the kits for the S2000 im 99% sure they kick in about 6k RPM or so. But I could be wrong

[Matyi]

Wouldnt that make for an exponential, J shape power curve, just like a turbo? I thought the point of the SC was that it maintained linear power delivery, as if the engine was of a larger displacement...

[WhiteAP1]

Ure not wrong but as AUS2000 said there totally different for the s2000. Like i said i dont know too much about S/C kits so dont take my word for it.

maybe this will help

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/s2-sc.html

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/dyno/S2K0304Dyno.pdf

[Shraka]

Thanks Shraka, but Centrifugal and Positive Displacement SCs are also totally different beasts. As the two availble kits for the S are centrifugal what you say above doesn't really apply to the S.

Yes true, but a centrifugal type supercharger really isn't much chop as it combines the worst parts of a turbo (no low end boost) and the worst parts of a supercharger (sucking engine power to drive the thing). It's only real use as far as I know is that it can be more safely added to a internally stock engine, so you don't blow pistons appart. If you can crack the block open, a turbo or roots type supercharger are much better options as far as I know.

If you know of any other uses I wouldn't mind seeing any info you have.

I guess what you're saying though is that the guy in the video was using a centrafugal type Supercharger? In that case then yes, the turbo will just be 'better' in almost every way, 'cept that it's less safe for the engine.

EDIT:
Oh for those who don't know:
- A positive displacement or 'Roots' type supercharger uses two screw deals next to eachother, and cram air in from a very low RPM. This is what is used on the Toyota 4A-GZE engine (that is in the AW11 Toyota MR2), and the new Supercharged Aurion V6 engine that some of you might be aware of. It's also the type of supercharger used on the Lotus Elise 2ZZ-GZE (obviously, being a Toyota engine, and Toyota loves their roots ;) )
- A dynamic or 'Centrifugal' type supercharger is like half a turbocharger. Rather than having a impellar housing though, it is connected to the crankshaft (usualy by a belt). This obviously has a slight advantage in high end flow (but no where as much as at turbo), but isn't nearly as efficiant at low end (like a roots SC is). As far as I know they are only used as bolt on SC kits, and they used to be used in World War 2 era aircraft, but were superseeded by turbochargers.

[WhiteAP1]

I guess what you're saying though is that the guy in the video was using a centrafugal type Supercharger? In that case then yes, the turbo will just be 'better' in almost every way, 'cept that it's less safe for the engine.

.

Both Comptech and vortech (only S/C kits available for the S) are centrafugal.

[Matyi]

Ure not wrong but as AUS2000 said there totally different for the s2000. Like i said i dont know too much about S/C kits so dont take my word for it.

maybe this will help

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/s2-sc.html

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/dyno/S2K0304Dyno.pdf

Thanks White, thats helpful.. from the dyno sheet it looks like it does make more power under the vtec point, but most of it comes in afterwards like you said. The site makes a similar statement also.

I wonder if you can get a positive displacement type, to make more power all of the time.

M

[Shraka]

Thanks White, thats helpful.. from the dyno sheet it looks like it does make more power under the vtec point, but most of it comes in afterwards like you said. The site makes a similar statement also.

I wonder if you can get a positive displacement type, to make more power all of the time.

M
Yes you can. I've been in a car with a 4A-GE, and one with a 4A-GZE. The GZE just had more power all the time. Much fatter power band and didn't feel like forced induction at all. But then I wasn't driving, so perhaps I'd feel slight lag if I was.

[WhiteAP1]

Im pretty sure his question was in regards to a supercharger for the S2000, not superchargers in general.

[Shraka]

So get a roots type Supercharger for an S2000. Crack the block, put some forged low comp pistons in it, close it up, enjoy. :)

[WhiteAP1]

i'll do it next commercial break. :p

[AusS2000]

White, the SCs are always running so effectively they are always spooled. The difference is that their pressure curve means they are not producing much pressure until around 5k and they only produce their peak pressure at redline.

Lag is the time it takes a compressor to spin up when you open the throttle. There is no such thing with an SC as it is always spinning proportional tot he crank. But a big turbo might be spinning quite slowly if you are cruising and have the throttle only partially open. When you mash the throttle the turbo takes a while to spin up. That is lag.

All that said, my Comptech Sc may have been spinning with the engine at 5krpm and gave a nice kick when I hit the throttle (no lag), but my GT3071 is at full boost by 3500 and shows virtually no lag throughout the usable rev range. If you go for a bigger turbo or a non-ball bearing one it might be different.

[WhiteAP1]

Thanks Aus, for some reason i thought the s/c didnt start spooling until 6k or so. Thats why i thought there would be less actual lag with a turbo. Regardless sounds like a sensible turbo setup is still more beneficial. Although there is no lag with a S/C, reaching full boost by 3500 instead of 5-6K in comparison would be much better.

[AusS2000]

Shraka, everything you say makes kinda sense, but it's wrong. Sorry.

The SCs for the S are centrifugal and do have the worst aspects of turbos and SCs in one, but the fact it, they work, and work nicely for what they are; bolt on kits.

As for doing internals, once again you'd be right, but not for the F20C. There are stock internal F20Cs pushing 500hp. I'm at 380 and haven't even had the head off.

And with regards to PD blowers, many have tried, no one has succeeded(yet). Distincto Belleza in Japan have had a kit for years but I don't know anyone who has one (and I mean 'in the world'). BPR have had a PD blower in the works for years but nothing yet. And Jackson Racing, the Honda/PD Blower specialists are doing an SC for the S, but it's centrifugal.

[AusS2000]

Seriously, nothing will beat a well spec'd turbo. Just don't cut any corners.

[Shraka]

I'm sure they do, but it's still a compromise. Which is fine if you just want some more power up top and don't wanna spend much.

And I am right about cracking the block open. F20C may take power, but for how long? And how carefull do you have to be with it? Sure, you can do high boost + high comp. You can do that with any engine. You just have to then be paranoid about something leaning it out and making your nice system go pop. So the F20C might last fairly well, but there are a few strong engines out there that'll handle a high comp + boost system for a while. It's not just the F20C.

For max power, nothing beats a turbocharger. A roots supercharger is about response, not top end, and fattening up the mid range. It's the old argument of N/A for response, and turbo for power, with roots SC sitting in the middle as the compromise between the two.

[AusS2000]

What are you actually basing this on Shraka?

I run a lowish boost turbo on a stock block and I get all the advantages of N/A response, all the top end of FI, and all the mid range of a well spec'd turbo.

I've been running it FI for about 25K and haven't had any problems because I never cut any corners.

Further to that I have a second block that I bought to build up and the ladder frame bottom end, and high spec internals are so good I can't find anything that is worth replacing them with. All I am ending up doing is replacing the pistons with lower copression ones and rebuilding.

So I'm sorry to say it, but everything you have said so far in this S2000/NSX thread just doesn't apply.

[Shraka]

Listen to yourself:

...All I am ending up doing is replacing the pistons with lower copression ones and rebuilding.
My last post was mostly about needing to lower the compression on a boosted engine so that it'll be safer. You say what I say doesn't apply, then turn around and agree with me? *is confused*

Adding forced induction WILL reduce the life of the engine. Extra force = extra ware. How much shorter will depend on how hard you drive and how well you take care of it obviously.

I can't see why rules of physics are just gonna suddenly stop applying to an engine just 'cuz it's a Honda engine.

Low boost with high compression is fine, as long as you’re careful with it and take extra care not to let it lean out. It’s more care than someone with a non boosted version of the engine, or someone who has put lower comp pistons in has to take. And it still won’t last as long but it should be good for a while. I’m not saying it’s gonna suddenly fall apart every 10,000kms.

If it really doesn’t apply, why are you putting in low comp pistons at all? Don’t be a baby. Run 30psi through that thing with a stock bottom end. We’ll see how long it ‘doesn’t apply’ for.

[AusS2000]

You might want to have a listen to yourself too. You're going on and on about generalisations that do not apply based on experience that is not relevant.

My point on rebuilding an engine was that in doing so I have learnt that there isn't much that needs upgrading as it is already very high spec. You didn't specify 'low comp' and on most other engines you wouldn't attempt the sort of power levels we're talking about with out replacing a lot more than just the pistons. I am not rebuilding so I can run 30psi. I am rebuilding a block because I like to spend some time actually getting amongst the stuff rather than just shooting shit on a forum. Then I will run whatever boost I find is acceptable and safe.

No one is arguing whether or not an FI'd engine will last as long. Fact is, if you're going to go to all the trouble of FI you're probably not going to drive like a granny. But you make it sound like it's gunna pop in next five minutes. I can assure that done properly you won't have a catastrophic failure (like a rod through the block) and increased general wear won't be enough to be concerned about as like me you're probably considering your next upgrade.

At the end of the day the audience can decide. I'm doing it, you're talking about it. What is your hands-on experience BTW?

[Shraka]

*sigh* It’s all relevant. You seem to be attacking my argument based solely on the basis that you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. We seem to actually agree on almost everything, so I dunno what you’re getting your knickers in a knot for.

May I suggest you re-read the conversation, as I have just done. I DID actually specify low comp. Re read my posts.

If what I say really doesn’t apply, why won’t you run 30psi through your standard block and pistons? Seriously, answer me that.

Lets summaries what I’ve said:

1 - Turbochargers and Superchargers are different.
2 – A correctly set up Supercharger will feel more like NA than a turbocharger
3 – A centrifugal supercharger isn’t as efficient as a turbo, or a roots supercharger.
4 – A centrifugal supercharger is only really good as a cheap bolt on for a stock high compression engine.
5 – A turbocharger is less safe for an internally stock engine than a centrifugal supercharger.
6 – You can have a roots type supercharger, which makes boost almost all through the rev range.
7 – You could find a roots supercharger that would fit the S2000, put in low comp pistons, and have boost all through the rev range.
8 – High boost + high comp is suicidal, and will eventually blow the engine up.
9 – Turbochargers are more efficient than Roots Superchargers, but Roots Superchargers don’t lag, and give you more low end power.

Those are my key points. Tell me, which ones of those do you argue with?

To answer your question on my hands on experience, it is limited. I’ve helped out with engine swaps, interior stripping, and done the usual oil changes etc. I have spent a lot of time talking about the theory of engines and performance vehicles with those who put them together, and theoretical people, such as physics students.


i'll do it next commercial break. :p
Go! Do it! :)

[AusS2000]

If what I say really doesn’t apply, why won’t you run 30psi through your standard block and pistons? Seriously, answer me that.

I don't get the 30psi thing. No matter what I said you could always pick a ridiculous number and say it supports your argument.

The stock block with adequate tuning is enough for anything we have spoken of here.

Your comment that:

SC wont have nearly the lag
is irrelevant within the available SC kits because they may not have any lag, but they also don't produce any boost down low so a decent turbo kicks in earlier anyway.

Your comment

a centrifugal type supercharger really isn't much chop
is irrelevant because both the available SC kits for the S2000 are centrifugal and do what they are proported to do and do it well.

Your comment

It's only real use as far as I know is that it can be more safely added to a internally stock engine, so you don't blow pistons appart. If you can crack the block open, a turbo or roots type supercharger are much better options as far as I know.
Is just dumb, because there are plenty of examples of turboed S2000 who have never "crack the block open" and are performing adequately and don't need "30psi" to beat just about anything on the road.

Your comment

So get a roots type Supercharger for an S2000. Crack the block, put some forged low comp pistons in it, close it up, enjoy.
Is dumb because there are no freely available roots type SCs for the S2000, if there was you probably wouldn't need to 'crack the block open' and I doubt it would out perform a decent turbo on a stock engine anyway. Not that there's much point in racing vapourware.

Your comment

I'm sure they do, but it's still a compromise. Which is fine if you just want some more power up top and don't wanna spend much.
Is just plain ignorant because there is very little compromise in my set up and I have bucket loads of torque down low (from about 3500).

Your comment

I am right about cracking the block open.
Is stupid because you can produce enough power to turn the drivetrain to glitter without decompressing the engine or uprating internals.

So yeah, apart from that, we agree.

[AusS2000]

*sigh* It’s all relevant. You seem to be attacking my argument based solely on the basis that you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying.

Nah, it's cause you're talking smack you have no idea about.


1 - Turbochargers and Superchargers are different.

Well duh!


2 – A correctly set up Supercharger will feel more like NA than a turbocharger

NA feels like NA. A PD blower might feel like a bigger NA engine but the two kits for the S2000 are centrifugal and don't feel anything like NA. I've owned and driven one. Have you?


3 – A centrifugal supercharger isn’t as efficient as a turbo, or a roots supercharger.

Sorry, but a Roots type blower has the lowest thermal effciency of the lot. It's the low thermal eficiency that has stopped them being used with S2000s. The S2000's very wide rev range requires a compressor that can work low and not move out of it's adiabatic curve up high. Once again, the S2000 is a different kettle of fish.


4 – A centrifugal supercharger is only really good as a cheap bolt on for a stock high compression engine.

I agree if you remove the word "only". I certainly don't see that as a Con.


5 – A turbocharger is less safe for an internally stock engine than a centrifugal supercharger.

How do you judge 'safe'? I'm sorry, but an adequately tuned, no corners cut turbo is very 'safe'. Hell, I run one daily! Do you?


6 – You can have a roots type supercharger, which makes boost almost all through the rev range.

Not on an S2000 you can't. BPR have had one in development for over a year and I know of four other companies that have tried and given up. Can't race with vapourware.


7 – You could find a roots supercharger that would fit the S2000, put in low comp pistons, and have boost all through the rev range.

Hmmm, and yet nobody has. I wonder why?


8 – High boost + high comp is suicidal, and will eventually blow the engine up.

BS.

Oh, you mean 30psi! Sure, but why do you need 30 psi? You will out perform both SCs and even your hypothetical roots blower with less than 10psi. And turn your drivetrain to confetti.


9 – Turbochargers are more efficient than Roots Superchargers, but Roots Superchargers don’t lag, and give you more low end power.

Hmmm, lag. I would say there is penty of lag in a S2000 Roots blower. About 7 years so far. I repeat, you can't race vapourware.



I have spent a lot of time talking about the theory of engines

Yeah, I thought so.

[Shraka]

Mate, you just sound like an idiot to me.

Most of my posts are generic engine stuff. It does apply. You could have just said "Yeah, decompressing is the way to go, but I've run X PSI on stock compression fine with an F20C." But instead you decided to be an idiot.

I'm not gonna bother anymore 'cuz I don't enjoy baging my head against a wall.

[AusS2000]

Actually, banging your head against a wall might be beneficial.

[.::F[L]Y::.]

do you own an s2k shraka? is it turbo or sc?

[WhiteAP1]

Mate, you just sound like an idiot to me.

Most of my posts are generic engine stuff. It does apply. You could have just said "Yeah, decompressing is the way to go, but I've run X PSI on stock compression fine with an F20C." But instead you decided to be an idiot.

I'm not gonna bother anymore 'cuz I don't enjoy baging my head against a wall.

Well thats just it. Yes generically, u may be dead right, but all this generic stuff doesnt apply to the s2000. Aus is just trying to point out how it actually is with an s2000 coz hes been there and done that. Again generic theories may not be the best solution (and most cases they arent) for an F20C.

[AusS2000]

Thanks White, I was beginning to feel like I was all on my own.

Shraka - I'm sorry if this got a little heated but at the end of the day I'm coming from the position of experience here. I've had my S since new in March 2000 and followed the whole FI saga closely including installing both the Comptech SC and LoveFab turbo myself in my garage. I've watched several companies promote PD blowers only to cancel the project. I'm in constant communication with the leading guys in the US developing FI systems. And aside from my S2000 experience I have been mucking about with cars and FI for the last 20 years.

Not sure if that qualifies me or not nor whether it makes me an idiot or not. I prefer to let the viewing public decide.

[Shraka]

Pfft, hardly.

Just re-iterating what I've said in PM. The generic stuff does apply, it just might be a bit stupid to push the F20C to levels that I'm talking about for a road car.

Fangske, both White and AusS2000 have agreed that everything I've said applies genericaly, just probably wont apply to an F20C for road use, assuming you do it right.

I still stand by all my comments, but it's true that for AusS2000 or anyone who has similar goals, what I've said might not have much of an impact. I still say his 10psi F20C wont last as long as an NA F20C that's treated the same, but sounds like he's going to replace it before it starts to wear out anyway. :)

AusS2000 misunderstood quite a few things I said. I'm sorry for assuming you were an idiot who didn't know what he was talking about though AusS2000.
I've heard far to many people talking about chucking 12psi through an internaly stock Lancer engine or something without any idea of what they're on about, and I assumed you were someone like that.

[AusS2000]

I can't believe you don't even know when you're beat.

[Shraka]

*sigh* man, get over yourself.

Yes, I agree, for your kinda power levels, if you're carefull and do it right you don't need to open the block. They do similar things to 1UZ-FEs with turbochargers added, although they have a slightly lower stock compression I do beleive.

I agree, a roots supercharger custom made for the S2000 might be a silly idea, and it may not work very well, but it can be done.

I agree, for street use, 30psi is overkill. But you also agree that to run more boost than you currently have, you should lower the compression. Or I assume anyway, 'cuz I've asked you how your setup works to help understand your side of the argument. Which is more than I can say you have done.

It just seems to me you want someone to verbally beat up on. So I give up. There's no point arguing with someone who isn't interested in understanding the other persons point of view, and just wants to brow beat them into submission.

[AusS2000]

Please stop saying what I agree with. Half the time you don't even agree with yourself.

As for giving up, you said that several inane messages ago. You even mentioned banging your head against a wall which was the one thing you've said that some of us thought was a good idea.

[AusS2000]

Pro, if you want to take sides then please tell us who you agree with an why?

Or is this just an attack on me because I have put you in your place before?

[Shraka]

Heh heh. Seems I'm not the only one who thinks AusS2000s interpersonal skills could do with a brush up.

[ProECU]

make love not war.

[AusS2000]

LOL, get a room you two.

[Q_ball]

make love not war.

Thats right guys,
Plz keep this constructive or the thread will be closed.

[AusS2000]

BTW, keep your eye out for the BPR PD blower kit for the S2000. It's been in development for the S for over a year but should be close to completion.

Once it's out perhaps some of Shraka's fortune telling will become reality.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=352890

[silver_screen]

I think ur the idiot shraka.

AusS2000 has said everything perfectly. i couldnt have said it better myself.
Actually.. there is 1 thing i will disagree with (experiance)

The whole high psi + high comp = suicidal...
Supra in the states runs i think 11:1 comp ratio and over 30psi of boost.. thick as anything head gasket and head bolts to hold the bastard together BUT HEY! IT WORKS

and boy does it make a truck load of torque and power :)

Everything else he said.. PERFECT including banging ur head against a wall :)

[AusS2000]

Thanks Silver, although I'm not the one that said high psi + high compression = suicidal. Fact is, if you tune for it you can do almost anything. However if your compression is high and so is your boost you may need to pull so much timing and run so rich that you won't be making as much power as you should.

I also note you mention a thick head gasket. This is a fairly economical way of decompressing a motor. You sure that Supra isn't 11:1 stock but with a 3mm headgasket down to 9:1? Cometic make a 2mm and 3mm head gasket for the S for exactly this purpose.

[silver_screen]

No its not a stock supra. I think that fittin a nice gasket was to keep the strength there. They have more than likely fitted custom pistons to increase the compression.

You didnt say that hi boost hi comp crap either. u just said 30psi and lots of comp will kill most motors very very quickly and i just wanted to disagree with just that one line :)

Apparently this is the quickest USA supra atm... or so they say

[AusS2000]

Sorry if it seems like I'm arguing with one of my supporters, but I also don't think I said "u just said 30psi and lots of comp will kill most motors very very quickly".

My whole philosophy is that the general rules are just guidelines and that you can do pretty much anything you like with adequate tuning and sensible use. The whole 30psi thing was Shraka's and I have no idea where it came from.

[AusS2000]

I see the bit you're referring to:


Quote:
Shraka - 8 – High boost + high comp is suicidal, and will eventually blow the engine up.

Aus - BS. Oh, you mean 30psi! Sure, but why do you need 30 psi? You will out perform both SCs and even your hypothetical roots blower with less than 10psi. And turn your drivetrain to confetti.

My point there is that if you start increasing boost towards those levels you will come across all sorts of other problems before you have to worry about engine internals.

[silver_screen]

i see. i agree with u :) That dude is obviously clueless hahah like most on this forum :D