Better brake feel

[spetz]

What effects brake feel?

Can someone tell me what advantages a larger mast cylinder would make?
What about the slave cylinder?

I like brakes that feel firm, but bite with little pressure to the pedal, and with little travel

What would get that?

[Slow96GSR]

Well brakes are weird that when you put a smaller master cylinder you get better braking with less force. I guess I'll have to type up when my college textbooks say as they explain it really well.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=disc-brake.htm&url=http://www.tpub.com/fluid/ch1j.htm

Basically the figure shows you, piston 1, pushing with 100 lbs of force. The hydraulic force multiplies by a lot and shoots up to 1500 lbs on the medium piston and 3k on the large one. They say 10 psi per square inch.

Here is the index for it all, fluid dynamics I guess some would call it. If you need more info let us know.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=disc-brake.htm&url=http://www.tpub.com/fluid/ch1j.htm

[turtleEK1]

don't steel braided brake lines make a difference in the feel of the pedal becasue it eliminates the ballooning of the stock brake lines?

anyone help confirm?

[Slow96GSR]

Not until higher temps come in to play, like when you are racing on a street track. Normal road driving really doesn't need steel braid.

[dsp26]

^^not really, regardless how good your MC is, if you slam your breaks the factory rubber hoses will get a massive surge and flex... but yes due to heat expansion thats also true.

it's perfect though, coz when you replace ALL 4 hoses you'd have to bleed them all anyway so may as well get decent brake fluid.

also, SS lines are nowhere near as effective if you only get the fronts, flex will just be transferred to the rear hoses despite MC bias.

I've driven many cars with them from cold start... having SS lines all round is comparable to say accel pedal feel of a car with solid engine mounts all round...

[94vtirozguy]

SS brake lines improve brake feel

[aaronng]

SS brake lines improve brake feel only at the limit or at high temperature. The best way to improve brake feel is to add a brake master cylinder brace and to change brake fluid before it breaks down.

[dsp26]

^^^thats a good point, didn't know of that brace till Hot4s issue this month that covered it on the r34.

i may just fabricate a custom one... its essentially a clamp anyways.....

[BlitZ]

The best way to improve brake feel is to add a brake master cylinder brace ....

True, however its only a feeling.. doesnt help you brake any better..

Just a sensation like you are invincible...its like popping an e

[aaronng]

True, however its only a feeling.. doesnt help you brake any better..


That's why I said brake feel.

[A'PEXi]

lol 300 for better feel, your better off buying some better pads :P

[aaronng]

lol 300 for better feel, your better off buying some better pads :P
That's some expensive brake cylinder stopper there. They are $119-149 for the Cusco.

[spetz]

I read too that larger master cylinder will make it harder to press/less sensitive

But, also with a smaller one the travel will be too high?


What about all those firewall flex stoppers, do they do anything??

[aaronng]

What about all those firewall flex stoppers, do they do anything??
That's the cylinder brace or brake cylinder stopper. Improves braking feel.

[dsp26]

^got pics??

[egSi]

imo stopper doenst effectively change the performance of the brakes.

try some stainless steel braided lines, improve pedal AND responce :thumbsup:

[EG5[KRT]]

id go larger booster,teflon coated braided lines,new brake fluid,master cylinder stopper, and a good brake bleed to try and get as much air out as possible.. i.e manual bleed.

also u could upgrade caliper to a multiple pistion instead of single piston

then also get better brake pads... ?

[Chris_F]

^ that would change the brake feel and performance drastically for sure hehe

[spetz]

The fronts are twin pistons calipers
And I am thinking of upgrading to 294mm DBA 4000 rotors (mine are 276mm now)
Along with the rest of the stuff, and maybe use wilwood 4 pot calipers too depending on price etc

[Ronin 09]

how old are the calipers? the master cylinder? when was the last time the brakes were bled properly?

brake feel is a combination of a number of factors, and it is difficult to say "it is ABC causing your poor pedal".

I've posted before in another brake thread, but to get the most from your system you should:
- make sure the brake lines are not blistered or brittle / old. Braided are not strictly necessary on the street, but will help firm up feel a little. You will find the difference between a brand new rubber line and an old rubber line like night and day.
- make sure the fluid is bled correctly, and use a quality DOT5.1 or like brake fluid. note it may also be worth flushing the ABS system too; it is sometimes overlooked (not sure if all brake systems bleed the ABS when you bleed calipers, my older system on the GTR has a separate bleed on the ABS block)
- the seals on the master may be rooted; does it require a resleeve?
- seals on the calipers could use a rebuild; do they leak/do they move in and out of the caliper smoothly? surprisingly a couple of year old caliper seal can well be rooted from heat cycling
- brake master cylinder brace; some firewalls flex in the order of 1cm or more during braking... doughy brake pedal anyone?
- what is the pad compound? a harder track based pad will feel crap until it warms up
- does the rotor face / brake pad face have scores over it? if the rotor is grooved a machine may be in order, just get the pads faced...

if all these things are in order, i would expect your pedal 'feel' to come good
:)
cheers

[BlitZ]

if u cant fabricate a brake stopper yourself then you really should save that 150 of yours and do something else..

Although it gives you a firmer pedal feeel. you stopping distance will not improve.. its like getting and exzorst for sound and not performance..

.................

[civicboy]

hello guys
i know its off topic but where can i buy a quality steel braided brake lines & a contact # will b gr8, ta!

[Ronin 09]

Maltech do ADR compliant braided hoses to suit your car.
www.maltech.com.au
cheers

[nigs]

Firmer brake feel is a personal preference IMO.
True it doesn't improve braking distance but a better feel can result in more confident braking. It also may change brake pedal travel. Which can also improve your driving in terms of heel and toe. Having to really stand on your brakes while blipping the throttle can be difficult and akward for some.

Some people just like very touchy brakes that bite progressively till the point of lock up. Kinda gives you a higher sense of control. Jumping on your brakes, only to have the pedal go into the floor isn't fun.

A brake brace would be your best(cheap + easy) bet for this result.

[TKO]

i installed the Cusco MC Stopper and it provided a firmer feel when stepped on the brake. Which i guess it is better than a soft uncertain padal.

[BlitZ]

Different horses for different courses... personal preference really


For $150 Ill either upgrade MC and brake booster OR pads and fluid OR stainless steel lines + somthing else.. but thats just me..

Cause when push comes to shove on the track, a brake stopper does nothing when you fluids are boiling and your pads are fadding; your pedal will still hit the floor with no brake pressure

[JasonGilholme]

Very true blitz.

Having stainless steel lines, different pads and descent fluid will give you good braking performance which should travel through to the pedal as well.

Confidence is in performance. :D

[cristian]

while we're on the topic, have any of u guys ever used EBC greenstuff?!?

[BlitZ]

while we're on the topic, have any of u guys ever used EBC greenstuff?!? :thumbsup:..
I like them.. i used them for both track and streeet.. i dont even bother changing them..

I can ABS around wakie every corner if i like .. they are great for honda..

however they suck for heavier cars.. alot of people seem to have problems with the pads on heavier cars like skylines rexies etc etc


althought they are good.. there is better.. the ferodo stuff is quiet good..

and the wear factor on EBC green stuff is quiet high like every other perofrmance pad

[cristian]

ahh k, does it take a while to become effective?!? like does it only work good when its warm?!?

[chee]

Ok, so what are the options for upgrading a MC and brake booster?

Type R? Whats above that?

[barefootbonzai]

Ok, so what are the options for upgrading a MC and brake booster?

Type R? Whats above that?

If you have a DC2 you're already at top of the honda range (vtir is same as type R). And this is more than enough for the weight of the car. Even heavier cars such as accords and preludes use the same.

[chee]

type r mc is actually bigger. it has a 1" bore whereas the vti-r is smaller.

i need to upgrade the mc when i upgrade my front and rear calipers.

[Turps]

Chee's right; the Civic VTi-R has a 15/16" MC compared with the Type R's 1". I have recently changed my Civic VTi-R MC and booster with a CTR unit, to improve the feel of the brake pedal after I installed CTR brakes in my car.

On another note I have had my brakes worked on by three different workshops, two specilized in brakes, and none of them have been able to bleed my brakes correctly. Everytime I have had to take my car to a Honda dealer workshop to get the brakes bled properly.

[chee]

I think my a type R MC should be suffice for my brake setup. Hopefully everything goes well.