POD air filter conected straight onto throtle body

[amato2]

as the question asks just curious what would be the advantages and dis advantages of connecting a pod air filter striaght onto the throtle body

i saw a foto of it on this forum and just thought id ask the question

[aaronng]

Disadvantages: Hot air

[destrukshn]

advantages of throttle response?
run a pipe from the front of the car to the pod.. lol.

[DLO01]

Advantage: Better throttle response (does not have to suck up cold air piping)
Disadvantage: Power decrease (sucking in hot air)

[Klayemore]

Couldnt you have the pod connected straight on the throttle body, then have piping running from the front, straight to the pod feeding cold air?

[IZY-10]

Just think about it. it will be the same if you put the pod at the end of the pipe. You still have to suck in air from a long distance if you had a pipe connected to it.

[destrukshn]

Just think about it. it will be the same if you put the pod at the end of the pipe. You still have to suck in air from a long distance if you had a pipe connected to it.
wrong. it is different.
my guess it doesn't get the velocity from a CAI.

i went from a SRI, with a pipe from the front of the car, to a CAI, made a very noticable difference.

[VTi_b0i]

I tried this a while back and to be honest i dont think it made any improvement. i think it was worse IMO...

[EuroAccord13]

The response will definitely improve with the pod mounted after the TB.. Like AaronNg mentioned... Your enemy is the hot air...

A bonnet scoop would be a great idea to vent cooler air in OR an inverted one to release the heat in the engine bay...

[Weq]

Its not hot air that the worse enemy. In fact its take length that determins how the engine will respond. Different length and shape intakes will produce power differently throughout the rev range.

[amato2]

cool info guys i thought maybe it would be an advantage because it doesnt need to take as long for the air to get into the engine.....

would there be any sound difference??

[Klayemore]

Very detailed example of what I'm on about - I cant see why it wouldnt feed cold air aswell as increase throttle response....

Would be something to look into I think. (ice is an added option) haha

[sivic]

its not just about feeding cold air to it.
as weq said intake length has a big effect. for that size throttle body its not ideal to have the pod stuck straight on.
it's basically the same principle that applies to intake manifold runner length. for example the intake runners on an ITR are quite short which works well for the B18CR. however, sticking that intake manifold on a stock B16A and you're almost certain to see losses in power simply because those runner lengths aren't ideal for that engine.
basically its not a one size fits all, shortest route kind of deal. NA engine draw air in pulses. pulses are essentially waves and waves have wavelengths. length tuning takes into account these wavelengths. of course wavelengths will change with different engine speeds so therefore different intake lengths will benefit different parts of the rev range.
you also have to consider intake velocity. think about a straw and how its diameter and length would affect how fast you could suck liquid through it. too large and too short a straw and you'd struggle. however, too long and too narrow and it would be restricive. its all about finding a balance. an engine works the same........

[panda[cRx]]

Very detailed example of what I'm on about - I cant see why it wouldnt feed cold air aswell as increase throttle response....

Would be something to look into I think. (ice is an added option) haha

lmfao at pic!!

i expected something better from you man hahahaha :thumbsup:

[Klayemore]

I thought it was one of my finer works :(

And sivic - you do make a valid point

[muhhan]

destrukshn, what difference did going from the sri to the cai make? Which do you prefer and why?

[iamhappy46]

its not just about feeding cold air to it.
as weq said intake length has a big effect. for that size throttle body its not ideal to have the pod stuck straight on.
it's basically the same principle that applies to intake manifold runner length. for example the intake runners on an ITR are quite short which works well for the B18CR. however, sticking that intake manifold on a stock B16A and you're almost certain to see losses in power simply because those runner lengths aren't ideal for that engine.
basically its not a one size fits all, shortest route kind of deal. NA engine draw air in pulses. pulses are essentially waves and waves have wavelengths. length tuning takes into account these wavelengths. of course wavelengths will change with different engine speeds so therefore different intake lengths will benefit different parts of the rev range.
you also have to consider intake velocity. think about a straw and how its diameter and length would affect how fast you could suck liquid through it. too large and too short a straw and you'd struggle. however, too long and too narrow and it would be restricive. its all about finding a balance. an engine works the same........

Correct.

Short intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at high rpm
Long intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at low rpm.

Check any top fuel dragster and you will notice very short intake pipes and short exhaust pipe lengths to get a resonant frequency that promotes good cylinder fill at a certain rpm point.

Fitting a pod onto the throttle body WILL make the car very unresponsive at low rpm. Doing 100Km/h in 5th gear and trying to overtake without dropping back to 3rd gear, would be a waste of time.

[aaronng]

Why does a CAI also lose torque at low RPM though eventhough it has a long intake pipe?

[turtleEK1]

wouldn't an intake that narrows down to the TB size be of more advantage? because it would create the air to travel at a higher velocity? kinda creating a supercharge effect...

thats the idea behind ITB's... wonder if it would work on an intake?

btw- pod on TB... :thumbdwn:

EDIT: realised sivic half covered my post... sorry!

[iamhappy46]

Why does a CAI also lose torque at low RPM though eventhough it has a long intake pipe?

The pipe diameter also needs to be taken into account.

[DynoDave]

Correct.

Check any top fuel dragster and you will notice very short intake pipes and short exhaust pipe lengths to get a resonant frequency that promotes good cylinder fill at a certain rpm point.
Your smoking crack again dude check your facts before your make such a stupid comment.
Regards Dyno Dave

[muhhan]

Hang on, according to iamhappy46 CAI make more torque at low rpm (ie. less torque at high rpm, but then according to aaronng they lose torque at low rpm, and according to the dynosheet from the K&N website for their typhoon CAI there was a drop in power in the mid range compared to the stock intake. So combining all these together CAI don't seem to be netting any advantages at all! Something's not adding up!

[IZY-10]

I have played around with mine with the pipe to the pod bulls**t and it was crap. car lagged like no tomorrow. As for pipe size! would use 3.5" as apossed to 3". Personally exposed pods aren't that good unless you do it right. Best is to have them enclosed like the ford BA xr8 uses. I have pretty much replicated there setup

[aaronng]

I had an exposed pod for a while. All sound and no change in performance. With my airbox around the pod and cold air feed, the car now performs slightly better than when stock.

[IZY-10]

BTW here is a pic

3005

[iamhappy46]

Your smoking crack again dude check your facts before your make such a stupid comment.
Regards Dyno Dave

Why not enlighten everybody as to why?

I will admit it is a generic simplified statement but I am happy to bring out the worksheet for calculating resonant frequencies if you prefer :)

[DynoDave]

Why not enlighten everybody as to why?

I will admit it is a generic simplified statement but I am happy to bring out the worksheet for calculating resonant frequencies if you prefer :)
What does a TOP FUEL engine have to do with a Honda intake system,its a pretty out there statement dont you think.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ginganggooly]

Correct.

Short intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at high rpm
Long intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at low rpm.


So, please explain why, on the several cars I've experimented on, the whole graph is shifted upwards when going from a short ram to a long ram intake?

We're talking about a torque curve that maintains the same shape, but is shifted upwards from 2krpm to cut out.

[DynoDave]

So, please explain why, on the several cars I've experimented on, the whole graph is shifted upwards when going from a short ram to a long ram intake?

We're talking about a torque curve that maintains the same shape, but is shifted upwards from 2krpm to cut out.
Slim you know my feelings on these text book tradesmen :p.All the theory in the world makes jack shit difference when you sit on the dyno for as many hrs as we did testing the intakes and if you think we are going to sit here and tell everything we learned they are dreaming.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ProECU]

So, please explain why, on the several cars I've experimented on, the whole graph is shifted upwards when going from a short ram to a long ram intake?

We're talking about a torque curve that maintains the same shape, but is shifted upwards from 2krpm to cut out.

It might help if you detail the test conditions, and how/if any tuning was involved.

[ginganggooly]

It might help if you detail the test conditions, and how/if any tuning was involved.

That would require effort... and i'm oh so lazy these days.

But anyway-

The engines involved are: 4age 20v silvertop, B18c2, B18c7, B18c2 w/ CTR slugs, pr3 head and ctr valve train.

Tuning was performed by DynoDave.
Each car had a short ram style intake
Each car was tuned with the short ram intake attached.
Immediately after tuning, each car had several power runs with and without an extension pipe, (approximately 60cm in length).Whilst the improvements varied from car to car, in EVERY case, there was a definite improvement. At no point was there any overlap in the (power) graphs between long ram run, and short ram run. Peak increases were up to 6kw at the wheels.

[ProECU]

This is very interesting discussion from a tuning & engine dynamic perspective.

I rekon the above method is flawed IF there wasn't further tuning AFTER the extension pipe was added.
You'd expect a higher velocity intake charge so the more power would have been as a result of a leaner mixture.

I dont know where dave tunes these NA hondas in terms of a/f, but I can assure you they like to be lean!

Maybe if Dave feels generous enough, he can comment on my theory, im sure the test was more involved than detailed here.



Short intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at high rpm
Long intake pipes make more torque(and therefore power) at low rpm.


I agree that the above comment can not be generalised, simply because of crank and rod sizes which govern piston speeds at each rpm and crank angle... so there is more at work here, than just intake charge velocity.

[DynoDave]

AFR depends on the engines compression ratio and cams they are using, I normally use between 12.5 to 13.5 to 1 but again as you know Evan many things will change with different engines.All the testing we did with intakes they where all retuned after the mads to gain the best results but all made gains before tuning as Slim had said.We spent around 60hrs on the dyno over a few months doing testing so he does know what it takes to design the intake on a Honda Vtec engine.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ProECU]

nice, yea i thought there was more to the test conditions and never really doubted the results...

one thing however, ...60mm is that the magic number? what about the turn radius into the throttle body.. was that experimented with also? :)


AFR depends on the engines compression ratio and cams they are using
just to qualify this for those who dont understand why, higher compression equates to free "mechanical" octane, which allows a leaner mixture and generally less timing to make power.

The cams govern the dynamic compression ratio of an engine in motion and can either bleed or aid compression, depending on its phasing and cam specs.

[lilhaulerz]

also tried this to a makes EM1.. lots good throttle response and intake volume lots louder.. but didnt think it made much diff in power.. as his pod was not shielded or nething when it was on pipe.

[DynoDave]

That would require effort... and i'm oh so lazy these days.

But anyway-

The engines involved are: 4age 20v silvertop, B18c2, B18c7, B18c2 w/ CTR slugs, pr3 head and ctr valve train.

Tuning was performed by DynoDave.
Each car had a short ram style intake
Each car was tuned with the short ram intake attached.
Immediately after tuning, each car had several power runs with and without an extension pipe, (approximately 60cm in length).Whilst the improvements varied from car to car, in EVERY case, there was a definite improvement. At no point was there any overlap in the (power) graphs between long ram run, and short ram run. Peak increases were up to 6kw at the wheels.
You forgot 1 engine dude B16B as well was tested and tuned using power FC.
Regards Dyno Dave

[fatboyz39]

Yeap i was there when they did this test also.... voch for the power increase