FWD vs RWD?

[Petronas]

Always wanted to know why manufacturers make FWD cars? What are the benifits over RWD? I've always suspected it was something to do with cost?

[newmski]

yeh cost and ease for machine construction

[aaronng]

Cost, and that engine and drivetrain packages can be easily migrated from platform to platform.

Also, for novice drivers who can't control the accelerator (press the accelerator hard when panicking), it is safer with FWD.

[Chris_F]

in addition to what aaronn pointed out there's also the issue of economy. A FWD setup is lighter and more efficient

[krogoth]

u cant oversteer easily with FWD

mainly understeer

FWD is better for newer drivers, with less experience, as they are generally alot more predictable in all conditions that RWD

RWD and FWD can both have excellent handling characterestics......it just depends on the car....the falcon and s2k are both RWD but they dont handle the same way

if u really want massive power....go for RWD, coz then wen u run massive power on FWD, steering can become and issue

although same case with RWD, with too much power, oversteer can become an issue

and yes as already stated, FWD have better fuel efficiency as they are lighter and generally in smaller sized cars

FWD are also cheaper to make, and easily transferable from model to model, though the same can be said for RWD

[Speeder]

Cost reduction and increased cabin space.

[krogoth]

ooooohh. amd as speeder mentioned

with FWD u dont get that annoying bastard hump in the back passenger area(in most cases)

[solitz]

it aloows for cheaper production for the car...as money dosnt need to be spent on developing driveshafts to the rears and all that...and yea it allows for a more simpler design for the car and its mechanics and more room inside

[d15z1SUX]

there is less power loss through the drivetrain. which in turn gives u better fuel economy. thats what someone told me.

[^__^ SM ^__^]

Then what about 4WD like WRX, EVO and Skyline GT-R?

[destrukshn]

what about em?

[^__^ SM ^__^]

In terms of advantages and disadvantages over FWD, RWD

[destrukshn]

more stability around corners, though they do tend to understeer a bit, depending on platform.
plus more traction.

[d15z1SUX]

with 4wd there is even more power loss thru the drivetrain. so fuel economy is even worse. but of course u get the advantages of grip. depending on the 4wd system you may get more understeer from it than oversteer.

[d15z1SUX]

ah... oops sum1 sed it already

[gnx1987]

Always wanted to know why manufacturers make FWD cars? What are the benifits over RWD? I've always suspected it was something to do with cost?

True. But what those retards who make the cars don't realise is the money they save on the cars they lose in sales to customers who prefer rear wheel drive. Manufacturers who are known for making rear wheel drive or known for making front wheel drive should not step the other way otherwise they'll be up s*** creek IMO anyway. Look at some of the American manufacturers. Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac and Oldsmobile (which no longer exists) stepped over to front wheel drive and they lost a lot of popularity (doesn't help they look like crap). I guarantee if Commodores or Falcons went front wheel they would be rooted. That's why I hate Alpha Romeo's. Wicked looking cars but the fact that they've got high performance 6's in a front wheeler causes them to not be added to my dream cars list.

[silver_screen]

it aloows for cheaper production for the car...as money dosnt need to be spent on developing driveshafts to the rears and all that...and yea it allows for a more simpler design for the car and its mechanics and more room inside

simpler design for the mechanics??? im assuming u mean that its easier to work on...

i hate to tell u this.. but i am a mechanic and i absolutely hate workin on FWD cars...

no space for anything... timing belts??? pain in the ass... water pumps?? fkn nightmare... most RWD cars r north-south facing motors which allow very easy workin spaces.. FWD cars r very hard to work on.. especially when its a 3.2lt V6 like the vectras... Comin from someone who actually works on these products every single day, i would have to say that RWD cars r the pick of the bunch... i own both... im payin someone else to work on my honda, because theres no fkn way im breakin my hands n back to work on it... my other car is an rx7... now that is also a bitch to work on.. but atleast ive got a lil more space

[silver_screen]

Then what about 4WD like WRX, EVO and Skyline GT-R?

4WD and AWD cars r great under normal conditions... gravel and snow... awesome... wet roads... not as good as you'd think unless they have TCS then they r great... the GTR, while its a fast car in a straight line, doesnt handle as well as it should because its fkn heavy as anything... close to 1600kg isnt a good way to start a hipo car... wrx's and evos r better around the corners due to less weight. AWD/4WD cars understeer alot unless it has electrically controlled counterparts like the evo... that oversteers more than it understeers due to its elec parts... subies understeer a lil more because the lsd unit does that.. any lsd will compromise handling unless its set up properly and the driver knows how to drive it in those setups. a properly setup FWD car will almost always outhandle any RWD, 4WD or AWD car.. mainly because they r "lighter"... Most ppl forget that they r also front heavy which causes understeering and when equipped with lsd, only makes it worse BUT havin said that.. weight @ the front increases ur traction because theres more downforce which inturn allows for a higher threshold b4 ur ****ed.. but when ur ****ed... ur well and truly ****ed. Dont hold 4WD's in such high regard under normal street conditions. the fastest hill climb cars arent 4wd's.. they r tiny FWD cars. when u add gravel or snow or water.. 4WD will hold its own

Any questions?? :p

[aimre]

^^^^ Ummm yeah. Why dont any of the "Good" car companies make FWD if they are infact so good? (Porche ferrari lambo etc?) Why dont we see FWD super cars?



with FWD u dont get that annoying bastard hump in the back passenger area(in most cases)

My FWD civic DOES have a hump in the middle, and so does EVERY other FWD car -> I <- have been in, so that aint a real reason.



Also, for novice drivers who can't control the accelerator (press the accelerator hard when panicking), it is safer with FWD.

Considering how now some of the cheapest cars have ESP now, that really shouldnt be a problem.


Cost, and that engine and drivetrain packages can be easily migrated from platform to platform.

Well if you kept ALL your platforms RWD then you wouldnt have a problem any more, would you?


I probably wont be buying another FWD car any time soon, and next car WON'T be a honda, why? they got nothing good anymore to offer people that ENJOY driving

[d15z1SUX]

its not that fwd is 'so good' its just good for everyday driving in terms of economy, practicallity and cost.

btw esp isnt totally fool proof. i heard of someone that spun their 350z in the wet and hit a traffic light with traction control on. and ive managed to get a commodore into a fishtail with traction control in the wet. mind you i was trying to test the limits of the traction control, which was kinda dumb anyway. :P

[aimre]

its not that fwd is 'so good' its just good for everyday driving in terms of economy, practicallity and cost.

btw esp isnt totally fool proof. i heard of someone that spun their 350z in the wet and hit a traffic light with traction control on. and ive managed to get a commodore into a fishtail with traction control in the wet. mind you i was trying to test the limits of the traction control, which was kinda dumb anyway. :P

it helps you drive, but it doesnt make the car idiot proof:p:p

[deon]

4WD and AWD cars r great under normal conditions... gravel and snow... awesome... wet roads... not as good as you'd think unless they have TCS then they r great... the GTR, while its a fast car in a straight line, doesnt handle as well as it should because its fkn heavy as anything... close to 1600kg isnt a good way to start a hipo car... wrx's and evos r better around the corners due to less weight. AWD/4WD cars understeer alot unless it has electrically controlled counterparts like the evo... that oversteers more than it understeers due to its elec parts... subies understeer a lil more because the lsd unit does that.. any lsd will compromise handling unless its set up properly and the driver knows how to drive it in those setups. a properly setup FWD car will almost always outhandle any RWD, 4WD or AWD car.. mainly because they r "lighter"... Most ppl forget that they r also front heavy which causes understeering and when equipped with lsd, only makes it worse BUT havin said that.. weight @ the front increases ur traction because theres more downforce which inturn allows for a higher threshold b4 ur ****ed.. but when ur ****ed... ur well and truly ****ed. Dont hold 4WD's in such high regard under normal street conditions. the fastest hill climb cars arent 4wd's.. they r tiny FWD cars. when u add gravel or snow or water.. 4WD will hold its own

Any questions?? :p

hmm.. gtr fast in a straight line? but doesn't handle that well? mate obviously you have next to no idea, the simple fact that the r33 gtr was the first production car ever to break the 8 minute barrier around the nurburgring
PROVES it can "handle" straight line speed alone is not gonna get you a good time round that ring.
Hill climbs and "tiny FWD's" unfortunately dont go together, i believe one of the fastest "hill climbers" of the notorious pikes peak was the suzuki escudo, which was...AWD
AWD's only undesteer when they have a torque split of 50/50 or 60/40 (front/rear) if an AWD has a 60/40 split or an adjustable centre diff, like the Sti's the understeer is pretty much eradicated.
Put simply FWD will always be inferior to RWD or AWD due to the simple fact that the front wheels have to turn AND provide power. As aimre said honda dont really make a car thats enjoyable to drive (aside from the s2000 and nsx, which are rediculously overpriced) they make grannies cars and family cars. Although if your young and have limited money some of those older civics and integra's are cool but in terms of new cars they're no fun.

[deon]

its not that fwd is 'so good' its just good for everyday driving in terms of economy, practicallity and cost.

btw esp isnt totally fool proof. i heard of someone that spun their 350z in the wet and hit a traffic light with traction control on. and ive managed to get a commodore into a fishtail with traction control in the wet. mind you i was trying to test the limits of the traction control, which was kinda dumb anyway. :P
ESP and traction control are completely different. Tration control simply attempts to stop your wheels from spinning by cutting engine power. ESP takes input from your steering angle and other sensors and brakes individual wheels to keep the car from sliding, you'l find that if your stupid enough to try and take a 90 degree corner at 200k's your going to die watever car your in. if youve managed to fishtail a commodore with traction control, try doing it in a new commodore which has ESP and traction control.

[d15z1SUX]

interesting...
so that means with esp and tc it wouldnt fishtail i guess?

[aaronng]

ESP will try to rein your tail in, while TC will cut power to prevent anymore loss of grip. But as always, you can outsmart ESP and TC. So don't expect it to save idiots.

[matt]

ESP and traction control are completely different.
tho in lot of cases they do work together, and both systems are only as good as the program thats running them. there are many systems out there that either operate way to quickly (ie no fun :D ) or don't respond to situation untill it's almost to late.

but i definataley agree that they are not designed to make cars idiot proof :thumbsup:


some of those older civics and integra's are cool but in terms of new cars they're no fun.
what is it that makes em no fun? i love going for a good fang through the hills in my dc5r, granted its not the fastest thing on 4 wheels tho i have given my mate with a jap spec evo 8 a fright a couple of times. and for the money i paid for it i could of got an s15 or something like that but the dc5r just felt like a more challenging car to drive quickly.


As aimre said honda dont really make a car thats enjoyable to drive (aside from the s2000 and nsx, which are rediculously overpriced)
maybe not right now. i havent driven a nsx (unfortunatley) but i have given a s2k a good drive on a couple of occasions and all i can say is you obviously havent driven a ITR or CTR

and you say that silver_screen has no idea with his comment about the GTR, at the same time you need to have a look around for some of the vids which show ITR's and CTR's giving different AWD cars a hard time. a good FWD car is not always inferior to AWD or RWD.

and at the end of the day most of the differences will be when driving at or near the limit, which not many of us will be able to or should be doing on the road.

[aaronng]

FWD cars are usually lighter than their AWD (and even sometimes RWD) counterparts.

If you are taking a corner and you are not yet accelerating, then FWD will have an advantage if it is a light car where the front:rear weight ratio is not too extreme. AWD and RWD has an advantage in how early they can apply the throttle out of the turn. FWD usually is able to apply throttle only later compared to AWD and RWD.

[Petronas]

So after reading through the posts, what it comes down to (For everyday driving on PUBLIC roads) is

Price
Weight
Handling for Noobs
Wet Weather Traction

[krogoth]

My FWD civic DOES have a hump in the middle, and so does EVERY other FWD car -> I <- have been in, so that aint a real reason.


mate, most new FWD dont have this issue

its to do with suspension i believe, or how the suspension works

my 05civic has indepedent double wish bone suspension

therfore it works completley on its own, away from the rest of the car, eliminating the need of a rear axle and eliminating that bump

the older style FWD suspension did have an axle goin to the back, as it was a part of the rear suspension set up

and this was somhow related to the front of the car, im not sure, ill try and look it up

[Speeder]

mate, most new FWD dont have this issue

its to do with suspension i believe, or how the suspension works

my 05civic has indepedent double wish bone suspension

therfore it works completley on its own, away from the rest of the car, eliminating the need of a rear axle and eliminating that bump

the older style FWD suspension did have an axle goin to the back, as it was a part of the rear suspension set up

and this was somhow related to the front of the car, im not sure, ill try and look it up

Isn't that bump for the exhaust?

[aaronng]

Bump for the exhaust tunnel. :)
Zombie horde.... yummmmm

[destrukshn]

noobs.
lol.

[Zdster]

Bump for the exhaust tunnel. :)
Zombie horde.... yummmmm

Also for the fuel tank? In the rear of the civic that is where the tank is located.

[krogoth]

its for the zorst tunnel?

thanx for the corection

such a huge bump though.......lol

hmmz, i wonder how they got rid of the bump in newer models, ill have to look it upzzz

[deon]

So after reading through the posts, what it comes down to (For everyday driving on PUBLIC roads) is

......
Handling for Noobs
Wet Weather Traction

which (especially in teh wet) dont have..

[quote=aarong] FWD usually is able to apply throttle only later compared to AWD and RWD. [quote]

..a slower exit speed ...thus would make you slower, why would you want that?

[Speeder]

which (especially in teh wet) dont have..

[quote=aarong] FWD usually is able to apply throttle only later compared to AWD and RWD. [quote]

..a slower exit speed ...thus would make you slower, why would you want that?

Otherwise the car will simply understeer, the difference between RWD is that you can turn by steering and by applying/re-applying the gas, but with FF, its difficult to do so. That is why all top end race cars are RWD, they are simply faster.

[e240]

Why is this such a bother? You want RWD, buy a RWD car...
Whats the deal with all the one's better than the other?

Recently at Eastern Creek, I've beaten an XR6, HSV Maloo, a couple of Supra's etc etc etc...in my 1.6l FWD. Likewise, I've been beaten other RWDs...but coming in at 46 overall in a field of 90 isn't bad for a '93 civic.

There's also a Mirage thats doing 1:53 and have beaten even the likes of PRBs..

So really, you drive what you like and if you drive it well, its all satisfying.

[aaronng]

which (especially in teh wet) dont have..


FWD usually is able to apply throttle only later compared to AWD and RWD.

..a slower exit speed ...thus would make you slower, why would you want that?
LOL, read the sentence before that. It helps if you read the entire post. My quote above is a DISADVANTAGE of FWD.

[e240]

LOL, read the sentence before that. It helps if you read the entire post. My quote above is a DISADVANTAGE of FWD.

Actually, I don't quite agree with you. It really depends on the corner, the nature of entry into the corner, conditions etc etc, usually in high speed turns, I'm usually on the throttle even before hitting the apex...

[xtercii]

This thread is very interesting, just wait til silver_screen comes back.

[aaronng]

Actually, I don't quite agree with you. It really depends on the corner, the nature of entry into the corner, conditions etc etc, usually in high speed turns, I'm usually on the throttle even before hitting the apex...
Yup, true, at Wakefield in the corner before the middle hairpin, FWDs can floor the throttle all the way from entry to exit of the corner, while RWDs can't.

[krogoth]

i think front weel drives have such excellent handling characterestics simply because they are so damn predictable, in almost all conditions

the fact that u can pretty much only get understeer with FWD is wat makes them so good on track, ie DC5R, i love my civics handling, and IMO, ive tried a few RWD cars, and non compare

OF COURSE this doesnt mean that my civic will outhandle every RWD out ther, of course not....but the fact remains that FWD do have excellent handling characteristics, for many reasons like:

1. Weight distribution - FWD generally have a more balanced center of gravity, which means less body roll, so u feel tighter around corners
(AGAIN, the same can be said or done to RWD cars, im talking in a general sense) EG, the Dc2R from wat i know has exceptional weight distribution and center of gravity characteristics

2. FWD, as aaron has already mentioned, are always lighter than RWD cars, which makes them feel more agile and nimble, easier to control...this at least is how i feel wen switching cars between FWD and RWD....

3.Torque steer - now i know very little about this, but i do know that it can be an issue for FWD, although manufacturers tend to engineer TS out of FWD cars, and i dont think its an issue for RWD.

4. lack of oversteer - the only way u can get oversteer if u do somthing extremley stupid, like turn the steering weel in the rong direction as u come up to a turn, wile ur in high revs, and then slam the steering weel in the other direction wile punching the accel, i THINK this is called Lift off oversteer, or sumthing

PS, the above is my NOOB knowledge, SO if any1 can correct me, PLZ DO SO

[string]

PS, the above is my NOOB knowledge, SO if any1 can correct me, PLZ DO SO
All drive-train layouts can achieve understeer easily, you just go too fast and try to turn. The flaw of fwd is that power and steering must be done by the same wheels, so that under max power, you can't turn at a maximum rate (i.e. causing understeer if you will).

1. Fwd's have poor weigh distribution, and high rotational inertia. Our honda's have the bulk of the weigh pretty much over the front axel, a good part of it in front. Idealy you want it at the centre of the wheelbase, not at the edges. Front wheel drive turn in is terrible, so much weight to move quickly. Body roll is a function of height of centre of gravity. Why would a RWD have a higher centre of gravity than a FWD?
2. You are correct, they are usually lighter, but realistically, a rwd might only add 5% or less extra weight, negligible really. Just add a bit more power.
3. An LSD and correct castor settings will reduce/remove this.
4. Oversteer is not always a bad thing. Plus it's entirely possibly, and common to run an overly stiff rear end to get a bit of extra rotation by causing it to let go sooner.

However, none of the above make me want to drive a RWD. There's plenty of ways to make a FWD handle as well as I like;

[krogoth]

^thanx string 4 the corrections

+rep 4 u

[sitta]

my opinion
fwd advantage - extremely agile, handbrake turns are so much fun can do this at lower speed than power sliding with rwd. when you master da handbrake technique!! much more fun than rwd. you can go forward do the turn, go backward and go forward again!! rwd cant do that can you

fwd disadvantage: cant handle much power otherwise in corner exit you will spin your wheel all the way. alfa romeo autodelta 147 gta is like the max power of fwd, alfa 147 gta is already mad with traction control off. check out this autodelta 400hp and fwd.... cant get most of it on the track http://www.autodelta.co.uk/autodelta_2.htm

[aimre]

FWD may have its advantages, but it clearly has some major disadvantages. So why, i ask you, does honda, a company who clearly wants to be associated with motor sports (just watch the end of each of their ads) keep churning out these FWD sports cars.

Like ok, lets keep one, say the CTR, and then maybe make a rwd more affordable to the everyday joe and a car thats not some sissy 2L NA.
Id rather buy a 10k cheaper, with a v6, with more power, Heck the 350z even has multi piston brembos while an s2000 has only single piston units.

Enough about that, there also the subject of weight transfer. When u accelerate, the weight gets tranfered back, AWAY from the driving wheels, id hardly see that as an admirable quality in a 'sports' car.

[d15z1SUX]

Why is this such a bother? You want RWD, buy a RWD car...
Whats the deal with all the one's better than the other?

Recently at Eastern Creek, I've beaten an XR6, HSV Maloo, a couple of Supra's etc etc etc...in my 1.6l FWD. Likewise, I've been beaten other RWDs...but coming in at 46 overall in a field of 90 isn't bad for a '93 civic.

There's also a Mirage thats doing 1:53 and have beaten even the likes of PRBs..

So really, you drive what you like and if you drive it well, its all satisfying.

Couldn't have said it better. Everyone to their own. Tired of people bagging ff, fr, mr, 4wd etc.

[deon]

the question was.. "fwd vs rwd" rwd is better. If you have the same car, one fwd and one rwd the rwd will outperform SIMPLY because the front wheels dont have to do everything. To whoever asked why a rwd ITR or CTR would be better, there's your reason. Face it, fwd is to make things cheap, easy to manufacture. Arguably it is safer, as understeer is easier to control than over, but really if your after a sports car why would you want that, there are many other options to any honda that are probably better. Dont agree, prove me wrong..

[gnx1987]

Isn't that bump for the exhaust?

I think it's also a rigidity thing as well. Another name for that bump is the transmission tunnel which I s'pose doesn't apply to front wheel drive. And it is true that not all FWD are usually lighter. There's obviously a lot of FWD sixes around but the heaviest FWD I can think of are the mid 70's cadillacs. They had a 500 cid v8 front wheel drive.

[e240]

the question was.. "fwd vs rwd" rwd is better. If you have the same car, one fwd and one rwd the rwd will outperform SIMPLY because the front wheels dont have to do everything. ..

The reason why WRC got rid of the F2 Class was because the FWD under 2 litres NA cars were becoming faster than the WRC cars on tarmac stages, lets not even talk about RWD which no longer have a place on the international level of rallying.

Also note that most AWD/FWD are heavily weighted to the front.

While I believe that FWDs can be very competitive, I do agree that FWDs are disadvantaged due to the FW having to do everything and also the limit to the power that can be put down through the front wheels.

The masses don't really care what wheel drive the car is, all they want are cheap, affordable modes of transport. That is the reason why the japanese outsold every other car manufacturer.

The American car companies did not go down because they introduced FWD, rather, they went down holding onto antiquated RWD fuel guzzlers far to long and by the time they recognized that, it was too late. They had lost market share.

[krogoth]

very well said

[deon]

The reason why WRC got rid of the F2 Class was because the FWD under 2 litres NA cars were becoming faster than the WRC cars on tarmac stages, lets not even talk about RWD which no longer have a place on the international level of rallying.

Also note that most AWD/FWD are heavily weighted to the front.

While I believe that FWDs can be very competitive, I do agree that FWDs are disadvantaged due to the FW having to do everything and also the limit to the power that can be put down through the front wheels.

The masses don't really care what wheel drive the car is, all they want are cheap, affordable modes of transport. That is the reason why the japanese outsold every other car manufacturer.

The American car companies did not go down because they introduced FWD, rather, they went down holding onto antiquated RWD fuel guzzlers far to long and by the time they recognized that, it was too late. They had lost market share.

lol, american cars are mostly big pieces of sh1t, keep in mind that they are often critisised for NOT being RWD, liek teh ford taurus, fat piece of sh1t, which drives like a turd, one interesting thing though, is american companies are contemplating switching back to smaller rwd coars, not unlike the 3 series bmw. Just imagine if honda can make a fwd car handle so much better than alot of other car manufacturers, what they would be able to do with a rwd or awd platform, as you said the masses font car about fwd/rwd but when a persons looking for a sports car and spending a decent amount of money, things like that come into play. so a conclusion?
FWD: if your on a budget and want a decent handling car with moderate power. probably a good p plate car actually since all the good rwd's are banned
RWD: if you have the money and want lots of power, with great handling and if you enjoy a drift.
AWD: safety and excellent handling ( in the case of evo's and sti's ) andd expensive.

any additions or corrections?

[Speeder]

AWD doesn't automatically become a better handling car. It has additional grip levels, but this does not equate to better handling.

[deon]

AWD doesn't automatically become a better handling car. It has additional grip levels, but this does not equate to better handling.

idk mate evo's, sti's and gtr's are very quick cars for their power output how do you explain that? can you think of anything thats not awd with the same/similar power output that will beat one in stock form?

[d15z1SUX]

yes those are great handling cars. but maybe one 4wd car that is considered by some to be not such a great handler is a pulsar gtir. they say it understeers alot and is like a lead tipped arrow (front heavy). also it doesnt benifit from electronic help with the 4wd system. a car can be 4wd drive but have crap handling if the weight distribution and suspension arent good? this is the same with any other platform.

[aimre]

lol, american cars are mostly big pieces of sh1t, keep in mind that they are often critisised for NOT being RWD, liek teh ford taurus, fat piece of sh1t, which drives like a turd,

......
any additions or corrections?

Well ACTUALLY, the taurus was americas top selling car for five years and was in the top ten for many years. Possibly proving this point:


The masses don't really care what wheel drive the car is, all they want are cheap, affordable modes of transport. That is the reason why the japanese outsold every other car manufacturer.

But i do believe this to be wrong when dealing with 'sports' orientated cars.

[aaronng]

AWD cars do not have higher grip levels when cornering without touching the accelerator. It is only when you are accelerating that AWD has higher grip.

For example, the Accord Euro's lateral grip G is almost as high as the WRX! But when accelerating through a corner, I'm sure the WRX will have more grip than the Euro which is trying to turn and accelerate with only the front tyres.

[Speeder]

idk mate evo's, sti's and gtr's are very quick cars for their power output how do you explain that? can you think of anything thats not awd with the same/similar power output that will beat one in stock form?

LOL! Ok how do you explain a Mitsubishi GTO, a Subaru Liberty, and a Audi A4 Quattro, just to name a few? AWD has the help of additional grip, but they are based on FWD (bar GTR & GTO), which means they are still going to be front heavy whether you like it or not. Assumptions such as having 4 wheels spin automatically becomes a great handler is rubbish. Why are Porsche GT2's far superior then the Turbo? Explain that. Oh btw, NSX R will be more then a handful for a GTR to beat. I also like to add that GTR's produce more then 206KW if you didn't already know that...

[Vinnie]

FWD: if your on a budget and want a decent handling car with moderate power. probably a good p plate car actually since all the good rwd's are banned
RWD: if you have the money and want lots of power, with great handling and if you enjoy a drift.
AWD: safety and excellent handling ( in the case of evo's and sti's ) andd expensive.

any additions or corrections?

its not exactly a fair comment that all rwd's have great handling and can drift. for lower power figures ide say the fwd's are better and for bigger power figures u get too much understeer in a fwd but an rwd will be much easier to lose as well. expensive rwd cars have very sophisticated suspension and electronic controls to make sure they handle well, its not jus sumthing rwd cars can automatically do. and only a very small portion of them can actually drift well specific setup to even get them to drift well, the rest of them are jus not suited for it. lastly, awd cars definately get the power down to the road better in a straight line but u keep pointin to evos and rexes to show the benefits. its taken a long time to develop those cars to the level they are now...

[JMO]

Original Audi Quttro, changed the world, didn't handle the best it COULD, but was still quicker then a lot of other Rwd cars, that had the technology for a long time to perfect. i think this thread should have ended with the comment about super cars not being FWD, every car has it's job, Outback's are AWD dosn't mean they are quick, type R's are fwd dosn't mean they are cheap runabouts, i think it only matters if it is FWD/RWD/AWD if you want to Rip sick skids

[deon]

LOL! Ok how do you explain a Mitsubishi GTO, a Subaru Liberty, and a Audi A4 Quattro, just to name a few? AWD has the help of additional grip, but they are based on FWD (bar GTR & GTO), which means they are still going to be front heavy whether you like it or not. Assumptions such as having 4 wheels spin automatically becomes a great handler is rubbish. Why are Porsche GT2's far superior then the Turbo? Explain that. Oh btw, NSX R will be more then a handful for a GTR to beat. I also like to add that GTR's produce more then 206KW if you didn't already know that...

i didnt mean to say AWD's are always better, more so for their price they are, what 60k car can keep up with an evo? come on you need to compare to cars in the same price range. Also subaru dont make fwd cars...or do you mean they have a front bias?



yes those are great handling cars. but maybe one 4wd car that is considered by some to be not such a great handler is a pulsar gtir. they say it understeers alot and is like a lead tipped arrow (front heavy). also it doesnt benifit from electronic help with the 4wd system. a car can be 4wd drive but have crap handling if the weight distribution and suspension arent good? this is the same with any other platform.

this has alot to do with its torque distribution, im not sure exactly how it is, but i think its clsoer to 50/50

This is the same case for the outback, i was talkign about SPORTS cars, the outback is designed for rougher roads meaning a 50/50 or 60/40 front to rear ratio thats why these cars understeer. This was the same problem with earlier wrx's, which they fixed by putting in the ACD


ery small portion of them can actually drift well specific setup to even get them to drift well, the rest of them are jus not suited for it


could not agree more

[Speeder]

i didnt mean to say AWD's are always better, more so for their price they are, what 60k car can keep up with an evo? come on you need to compare to cars in the same price range. Also subaru dont make fwd cars...or do you mean they have a front bias?

It just sounded like you meant all AWD are faster then FWD and RWD. I meant Subaru's are front biased and Evos too, heck all AWD's are.
Anyway I'm not saying the Evo's, STI's etc are slow by any means and yes your right, there arn't many cars that can keep up with those two, but you have to agree that they are a niche car market, just like the Lancia Delta Integrale use to be, which is very much comperable to those cars you have mentioned, especially for its time, and also, there arn't cars made to compete with the STI/Evos as the market seemed to move away to make way for 'family' oriented cars. Also the Evo's and STi's are the performance benchmark for bang for bucks, I'm sure if other manufacturers wanted, they would be more then capable of producing 2 Wheels drive cars to upset the two, hell S15's and FD3S are more then a handful for those two to wipe.

[rhk]

. I meant Subaru's are front biased and Evos too, heck all AWD's are.


gtrs arent?

id take a rwd over a awd tho, rwd helps develop your driving tech where as awd, you can have anyone drive semi decently

[deon]

It just sounded like you meant all AWD are faster then FWD and RWD. I meant Subaru's are front biased and Evos too, heck all AWD's are.
Anyway I'm not saying the Evo's, STI's etc are slow by any means and yes your right, there arn't many cars that can keep up with those two, but you have to agree that they are a niche car market, just like the Lancia Delta Integrale use to be, which is very much comperable to those cars you have mentioned, especially for its time, and also, there arn't cars made to compete with the STI/Evos as the market seemed to move away to make way for 'family' oriented cars. Also the Evo's and STi's are the performance benchmark for bang for bucks, I'm sure if other manufacturers wanted, they would be more then capable of producing 2 Wheels drive cars to upset the two, hell S15's and FD3S are more then a handful for those two to wipe.

sti's and evo's arent frond biased.. 40/60 front rear. evo actually has settings between 60/40 (snow) 50/50 (gravel) 40/60 (tarmac) front /rear s15's get their asses handed to them by evo's and just to enhance the awd argument a little, the EVO MR beat a pagani zonda around a track, it was in CAR magazine if you wanna look it up. Infact this car was compared against a lamborghini murcielago on top gear and beat it too.

[aaronng]

New WRXs have adjustable center diff for rear biasing. Previous models were 50/50 torque split.

[Speeder]

gtrs arent?

LOL! Your kidding right? they are only tail happy when they start to understeer which is the first thing a gtr does. and I mean biased in terms of weight, which is the fundamentals of car balance, whether it is electronically/ mechanically aided.

Also with the Evo FQ400 beating a murchialago, yes i have seen it but talk about torque hole. AWD's don't offer the best of both worlds. Get over it... I really doubt the video anyway, put the race on the nurmbergring and see what happens...the track they used in top gear or whatever favoured the Evo's from the start.

[Speeder]

Also why are Formula 1's RWD? Because RWD is the pinnicle of car performance, RWD's are superior to that of AWD's.

[aaronng]

Also why are Formula 1's RWD? Because RWD is the pinnicle of car performance, RWD's are superior to that of AWD's.
LOL. TOTALLY FALSE!

They are RWD because of space restrictions for a driveshaft (won't have space for the driver to sit in) and to maintain the light weight of the car.

[d15z1SUX]

MR ftw!!!
:P

[rhk]

LOL! Your kidding right? they are only tail happy when they start to understeer which is the first thing a gtr does. and I mean biased in terms of weight, which is the fundamentals of car balance, whether it is electronically/ mechanically aided.


ah my mistake, i thought you guys were talking about power delivery.

i agree that rwd are a much better platform in terms of drivability and learning in comparison to a awd. Imo cars like wrx's are incredibly dangerous because they have no give. its either phenominal grip around a corner at 60km or crab walk into a tree at 61km . but as aaron said its not why they use rwd in f1.

[Speeder]

LOL. TOTALLY FALSE!

They are RWD because of space restrictions for a driveshaft (won't have space for the driver to sit in) and to maintain the light weight of the car.

No need to use cap locks...
So what you are saying is that they could not build a AWD F1 car if they wanted to? I smell BS. AWD will never have the balance of a RWD set up. See I'm not talking about all these electronic gizmos like that used in the EVo's because without it, they will just be an understeering pig. RWD are pinnicle, they have the choice to make AWD F1 cars if they want to, the technologies are available if you didn't realise, BUT they choose not to. LOL at you...

[string]

As aaronng said, which I agree with; weight is a hugely important factor here. An AWD setup requires a front diff, a huge drive-shaft up to the front, front axels, and a modified transmission. Now, we all know that the F1 teams do have a little bit of extra weight due to minimums, but do you really think they have enough to accomodate all this extra gear? Also, no one likes extra rotational inertia which a big fat diff at the front would give.

Also, do you propose that they raise the driver up 4 inches to accomodate a drive-shaft under him. I'm sure that would do wonders for the handling...

Using the argument "why does f1/ferrari/insert rwd manufacturer use so and so" is moronic at best. There are so many more factors than which wheels are driving to attribute to over-all performance.

RWD COMMODORE > INTEGRA TYPE-R!! RWD IS TEH BEST.

For such a RWD advocate, why on earth do you drive a DC2R?

[d15z1SUX]

most stock commodores handle like a barge. so i dont see how it is better than a integra type r unless your talking about a hsv or sumthing.

[string]

blanket statements are fun

[d15z1SUX]

who me? or him? or both of us?
hahahaha

[aaronng]

No need to use cap locks...
So what you are saying is that they could not build a AWD F1 car if they wanted to? I smell BS. AWD will never have the balance of a RWD set up. See I'm not talking about all these electronic gizmos like that used in the EVo's because without it, they will just be an understeering pig. RWD are pinnicle, they have the choice to make AWD F1 cars if they want to, the technologies are available if you didn't realise, BUT they choose not to. LOL at you...
I used caps lock because I didn't want people to get the wrong impression that I was not shouting.

Show me a low-clearance open wheeler. Not only in F1, but in all other categories like Formula Ford, F3, Formula Atlantic, A1GP and Indycar. No one uses AWD and every class uses MR because of packaging reasons. Old F1 cars of the 60's used the FR layout because they were not low to the ground. Once you try to keep the underbody as low as possible for ground effect, having a driveshaft is no longer feasible.

[e240]

Its so pointless to argue over these..

Westfields, Catherhams, PRBs, Super7s are FR
A number of Supercars are now Mid Engined, AWD
Hot Hatches and the likes are typically FF
Most if not all specialist sports cars are MR (Only logical to be RWD, why would you want to extend a drive shaft to the front)

I don't see as one better than the other. Some FWD are definately quicker and handles better than AWDs of RWDs..

If you say that pure performance cars are all RWD, then I will just have to disagree with you...

Blah Blah Blah...

[aaronng]

The Seven started production in 1957. Back then, even F1 was FR because they had not yet learned to exploit ground effect.

[silver_screen]

^^^^ Ummm yeah. Why dont any of the "Good" car companies make FWD if they are infact so good? (Porche ferrari lambo etc?) Why dont we see FWD super cars?


ill disregard the ferrari part being a "super car" because they r slower than my rx7 in every single way.. including looks... lambos arent RWD... AWD and most top end porches r also AWD and some RWD.. but the engine is also in the boot.. giving an increase in traction :)

[silver_screen]

reason y u dont see super car fwd is because traction is limited and handling is usually compromised... too heavy in the front induces understeer which is great for a beginner... but i cant handle understeer.. its too slow.. ive had my fair share of racing around the track. a properly setup rwd will handle better than any well setup fwd... awd setups r harder but if done properly will handle better than a fwd and as good as most rwd cars

AWD in F1??? too mess and too expensive... why would u bother when u could faster in MR config

[silver_screen]

idk mate evo's, sti's and gtr's are very quick cars for their power output how do you explain that? can you think of anything thats not awd with the same/similar power output that will beat one in stock form?

hahaha actually yer.. RX7 and NSX buddy :) both of those are MUCH quicker in straight line, handling and corner exist speeds ;) and if u dont believe it.. come to the track and prove me otherwise :)

[aimre]

They are RWD because of space restrictions for a driveshaft (won't have space for the driver to sit in) and to maintain the light weight of the car.

How about the use of a belt system instead of a shaft??

[rhk]

hahaha actually yer.. RX7 and NSX buddy :) both of those are MUCH quicker in straight line, handling and corner exist speeds ;) and if u dont believe it.. come to the track and prove me otherwise :)


id agree on that except for nxs > gtr in straight line speed.

unless of course you are talking stock for stock i suppose.
but then again who drives a stock japanese car these days lol...

using it just as an example so please dont flame and what not because id take the nsx over the gtr neday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV-AGEbx47A

that is a nsx with itb vs a gtr and in straight line speed it gets hosed but in terms of corner entry exit and braking its all over the gtr


edit- opps lol just read that it was stock vs stock. watch the video neways its a good watch :D

[Vinnie]

hmm a little off topic but the nsx, despite great dynamics, was starved for power coz of the limit on jap cars (and yeh i know very few of them actually were under that limit but it did have less power). as good the nsx is/was, it got stomped on by the diablos and f40/50's etc of the time... same applies for the rx7 but given it was much cheaper than the italian exotics...

[aaronng]

How about the use of a belt system instead of a shaft??
Not reliable when used on a car engine that has reasonable torque. That's why only lower capacity older style cars had chain drives. All modern cars have driveshafts in order to operate reliably given the modest torque. Chains and belts don't withstand high torque.

[Petronas]

I meant Subaru's are front biased and Evos too, heck all AWD's are. .
Veyron? :p

[deon]

Also why are Formula 1's RWD? Because RWD is the pinnicle of car performance, RWD's are superior to that of AWD's.
they're also governed by rules, which say they arent allowed to be awd. i believe the question was FWD vs RWD? and i think the clear winner is RWD i dont believe there is anything a current day rwd cant do that fwd can.
and i can't agree with your comment on a gtr, how about we hear about hwo they drive from somone who owns one?



ill disregard the ferrari part being a "super car" because they r slower than my rx7 in every single way.. including looks

lol i sense jealousy, a ferrari rips any rx7 for looks, other then if you drove a LM spec one around but i doubt you do, unless your rx7 is ridiculously modded i dont think it comes anywhere close to an f40/f50/enzo?

[rhk]

or fxx.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:OOXMKYV2PPBOSM:http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/images01/ferrari_fxx2.jpg

[d15z1SUX]

so whats the retail for one of those?
more than you can afford
n then the supra beat the ferrari.
lol

[string]

i dont believe there is anything a current day rwd cant do that fwd can.
If that were true no manufacturer would produce a FWD vehicle.

[aimre]

Not reliable when used on a car engine that has reasonable torque. That's why only lower capacity older style cars had chain drives. All modern cars have driveshafts in order to operate reliably given the modest torque. Chains and belts don't withstand high torque.

WHatabout a drag cars super charger??? They are belt driven, and i bet none of our hondas even make enough power to turn those things

[Speeder]

they're also governed by rules, which say they arent allowed to be awd. i believe the question was FWD vs RWD? and i think the clear winner is RWD i dont believe there is anything a current day rwd cant do that fwd can.
and i can't agree with your comment on a gtr, how about we hear about hwo they drive from somone who owns one?

I've driven a GTR R33 for 6 months, and that is my conclusion, I don't care what you have to say, so let's leave it at that shall we???

[Speeder]

Also you are right, this topic is about FWD and RWD so excuse my ignorance. RWD is a clear cut winner when compared to FWD.

[d15z1SUX]

i like the thrills of understeer.
thrilling stuff.

[rhk]

^ if you want to have good fun death oversteer, just lift off the throttle at high speed understeers ftw lol

imho:

fwd: hatches
rwd: most other things

[silver_screen]

Deon.. it is ridiculously modded... and its almost finished too :) 500rwkw+ champ. no enzo or anything from ferrari could ever keep up lol :) as for looks?? im not jealous of ferraris... its a poor mans lambo :) bugatti and a lambo r cars i would love to own.. not a ferrari :) n specs on the enzo r like 11's 1/4 mile :/ its really not that fast of a car. .even the bugatti musters a 10 sec pass... *drools* i want a bugatti!! someone buy me one? :D

[Speeder]

Veyron? :p

LOL, ok ok, the Veyron is a beast out on its own, thats a experimental monster, not a car ;)

[string]

Deon.. it is ridiculously modded... and its almost finished too :) 500rwkw+ champ. no enzo or anything from ferrari could ever keep up lol :) as for looks?? im not jealous of ferraris... its a poor mans lambo :) bugatti and a lambo r cars i would love to own.. not a ferrari :) n specs on the enzo r like 11's 1/4 mile :/ its really not that fast of a car. .even the bugatti musters a 10 sec pass... *drools* i want a bugatti!! someone buy me one? :D
Do you think Ferrari are worried that the Enzo's 11 second quater mile pass will have people consider it "not really that fast"? How idiotic do you have to be to judge a care purely on straight line speed? Any car can go fast in a straight line with enough power and rubber.

If you can't appreciate the amazing build quality (and the rest) of a Ferrari, claiming they are a "poor man's" anything, you need to pull yourself out of your fantasy land and get back in your Camry.

Please, give us some more information on this "500rwkw+" RX7 of yours. If in the unlikely even you are telling the truth you'd still lose to a "poor man's lambo" in a race which requires a little more input than the right foot.


no enzo or anything from ferrari could ever keep up lol
And just to jump in before you google image search for "rx7 t04r"; the Ferrari F50 GT weighed in at 909kg and sported 559kw of v12 power. I think those numbers, along with the badge speak for itself on the track.

[aaronng]

WHatabout a drag cars super charger??? They are belt driven, and i bet none of our hondas even make enough power to turn those things
LOL, learn how a supercharger works. It doesn't use up to 200Nm worth of torque to spin.

[deon]

LOL, learn how a supercharger works. It doesn't use up to 200Nm worth of torque to spin.
i read that a top fuelers supercharger requires over 1000hp to just turn over..more along the lines of 2500hp i think..doesnt that sound like it would need more than 200nm? im not sure but >1000hp to turn over a supercharger is a fair bit.

[deon]

Deon.. it is ridiculously modded... and its almost finished too :) 500rwkw+ champ. no enzo or anything from ferrari could ever keep up lol :) as for looks?? im not jealous of ferraris... its a poor mans lambo :) bugatti and a lambo r cars i would love to own.. not a ferrari :) n specs on the enzo r like 11's 1/4 mile :/ its really not that fast of a car. .even the bugatti musters a 10 sec pass... *drools* i want a bugatti!! someone buy me one? :D
thats awesome dude..but a ferrari's a ferrari

If that were true no manufacturer would produce a FWD vehicle.

sorry i forgot one thing..fwd is cheaper

[Petronas]

i like the thrills of understeer.
thrilling stuff.
Is it called torque steer in a FWD car? Holy crap that is scary in the wet...

[aaronng]

i read that a top fuelers supercharger requires over 1000hp to just turn over..more along the lines of 2500hp i think..doesnt that sound like it would need more than 200nm? im not sure but >1000hp to turn over a supercharger is a fair bit.
Top Fuel dragsters are a different beast. Their supercharger drive belt will probably cost a thousand or two dollars! Also, the supercharger needs 900hp at 8500 engine-rpm to turn because it is a roots blower trying to push over 3.0bar! Roots blowers are not very efficient at above 0.7 bar

[d15z1SUX]

why do they persist with blowers then? is it just because they like blowers more than turbos? or is it for the instant response?

[aimre]

Top Fuel dragsters are a different beast. Their supercharger drive belt will probably cost a thousand or two dollars! Also, the supercharger needs 900hp at 8500 engine-rpm to turn because it is a roots blower trying to push over 3.0bar! Roots blowers are not very efficient at above 0.7 bar

So whats a thousand dollars in a million dollar F1 team then?

Also dont harleys use belts??

[deon]

alot of bikes use belts, f1 CANT use awd because theyre not allowed, who knows it oculd be alot better with awd, as you can see teh clear cut difference between skylines gts-gtr

[aimre]

alot of bikes use belts, f1 CANT use awd because theyre not allowed, who knows it oculd be alot better with awd, as you can see teh clear cut difference between skylines gts-gtr

I know, im debating if and HOW it can be done

[rhk]

would it really be that feasible putting awd in an f1 car? crab walking at those speeds could be crazy dangerous

also as mentioned weight is an issue and so is the drive shaft.

but meh

[aaronng]

So whats a thousand dollars in a million dollar F1 team then?

Also dont harleys use belts??
Why don't you post at formula1.com and ask why they don't use belts? I reckon that they want the weight savings and want as much weight as possible on the driving wheels for maximum traction.

[Speeder]

alot of bikes use belts, f1 CANT use awd because theyre not allowed, who knows it oculd be alot better with awd, as you can see teh clear cut difference between skylines gts-gtr

Not necessarily, in fact, not even close in terms of clear cut, put a RB26DETT into a GTS-T/GTT which has been done millions of times in Japan, and 'overall' they are superior then the GTRs, except for professional drag racing, and even so, they are still very comparable as long as they are equiped with decent slicks.

[aimre]

Why don't you post at formula1.com and ask why they don't use belts? I reckon that they want the weight savings and want as much weight as possible on the driving wheels for maximum traction.

Coz i looked through the rules and read that only 2 wheels may be driven (well its obvious F1 teams think RWD is better than FWD) I was merley stating, that if for some reason F1 DID go awd, there are other options that just a driveshaft as someone mentioned that would be a problem.

[d15z1SUX]

Not necessarily, in fact, not even close in terms of clear cut, put a RB26DETT into a GTS-T/GTT which has been done millions of times in Japan, and 'overall' they are superior then the GTRs, except for professional drag racing, and even so, they are still very comparable as long as they are equiped with decent slicks.

well its quite rare to find a gtst or gtt being superior to a gtr? any examples if i may ask? explain this a bit better?

[rhk]

^ for high power id assume you would want to keep the gtr due to the atessa system?

but having said that a friend of mine owns an r32 gtst and an r32 gtr and claims that the grt is a lot heavier into a corner but you can lay on the power a lot earlier at the exit.

[Speeder]

well its quite rare to find a gtst or gtt being superior to a gtr? any examples if i may ask? explain this a bit better?

Put in the same engine into a GTS/GTT, the car will have same power to the GTR, but with a more focused chassis, lighter and without the awkard atessa AWD system. The examples are rare in Australia, as the car market is very small here but I'm sure they are fine examples out and about. Go overseas and have a look around, you'd be suprised, they are a few examples on HPI DVD, check it out if you have time :thumbsup:
Like the Evo's, these cars are quite easy to drive pretty fast especially for a rookie who thinks they are the greatest because they smashed X,Y,Z which instantly gives the GTR a god like state, but what they don't know is that a well balanced RWD cars can easily challenge a GTR in pretty much any situation give or take a few and all this is from my own experiences.

[mj3610]

FWD is a step backwards in automotive engineering...

[IZY-10]

why dont you guys stick to the topic RWD Vs FWD

[deon]

Not necessarily, in fact, not even close in terms of clear cut, put a RB26DETT into a GTS-T/GTT which has been done millions of times in Japan, and 'overall' they are superior then the GTRs, except for professional drag racing, and even so, they are still very comparable as long as they are equiped with decent slicks.

prove it. Im sure if the same mods are done to both gts/gtt and gtr the gtr will out-do.


why dont you guys stick to the topic RWD Vs FWD

probably because rwd is far superior to fwd that fwd has just been put on the side line and its now become rwd vs awd which in my opinion is a much better topic to discuss. because
fwd=poo
rwd=the sh1t
btw, to all owners of fwd cars i also own fwd so no real offence meant, but i will never again own one. Only reason i own it is because its cheap which i guess is the whole benefit of fwd.

[SHIFTY]

FWD vs RWD....

Its not just the drivertrain (i.e. fwd,rwd,awd) its the cars chassis aswell and the setup.

For example, neather a Lexus GS300 (RWD) or the old Honda Legend sedan (FWD) are gona handle coz there boats....

in my opinion RWD is far better... and it would explain why ppl say the ITR is the best handling FWD coz it handles like a RWD :S

Lol.... Its all in the setup,chassis and what u whant the car for... and most importantly the driver !!

[silver_screen]

lose to a lambo??? been there, tried that.. lambo got what he had comin.. u dont build a track car to lose to street cars :) even if they r exotic cars... they still can not and will never be as good as a full race car simple as that :)
Maybe u should turn ur TV on sometime... u might see the rx7s killin the exotics on the track as well :)

[Speeder]

prove it. Im sure if the same mods are done to both gts/gtt and gtr the gtr will out-do.

Prove what? So you obviously think that in the long term, a AWD which is always going to have more weight over the front axles is going to perform better then a car that is driven only by the rear wheels where the front tyres don't get as much abuse as the AWD??? I think in the context that you speak of, you are talking in the world of fantasies where all variables are fixed, favoring the AWD.
Anyway forget it, you guys can keep on arguing, this is why I love the net lol...

[Speeder]

Also as you said earlier, compare cars witnin the same price bracket, to compare the price of a stock GTR vs a stock GTT, put the remaining money into the GTT, the GTT will out-do a GTR all day everyday.

[d15z1SUX]

fwd vs rwd vs awd... there are always exceptions in each category. it is not about the platform but how well it is set up.

except maybe for fwd. its got its limits. but i still love fwd :)

[aimre]

fwd vs rwd vs awd... there are always exceptions in each category. it is not about the platform but how well it is set up.

except maybe for fwd. its got its limits. but i still love fwd :)

Why do u love it though?

[d15z1SUX]

because i am content with it and what it does. i accept it for its limitations and its advantages. though some may see its advantages as disadvantages. lol. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[mj3610]

because i am content with it and what it does. i accept it for its limitations and its advantages. though some may see its advantages as disadvantages. lol. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
i dont see any advantages with fwd, and to me saying beuty is in the eye of the beholder is being ingnorant...

[d15z1SUX]

then thats your problem

[krogoth]

i dont see any advantages with fwd, and to me saying beuty is in the eye of the beholder is being ingnorant...

ignorance is not being able to accept other opnions

[mj3610]

ignorance is not being able to accept other opnions
commonsense is on my side so i don see why i have to accept your rediculous opinions u shittalker...
FWD is rubbish, under no circumstance i'd ever pay more than 7g for a FWD...

[krogoth]

commonsense is on my side so i don see why i have to accept your rediculous opinions u shittalker...
FWD is rubbish, under no circumstance i'd ever pay more than 7g for a FWD...

why thank u mj, u have proved my point exceptionally

i think 90% of wat u say on this site is SHITTALKING, but i dont say so

because i repect other opinions, including gay bs opinions that u say

[mj3610]

why thank u mj, u have proved my point exceptionally

i think 90% of wat u say on this site is SHITTALKING, but i dont say so

because i repect other opinions, including gay bs opinions that u say
lol ur such a donkey, im always laughing at mules like u that are soooo stupid they don have a clue about ANYTHING, don be cut cause uve blown so much money on a piece of shit...

[aaronng]

LOL, mj3610, you lost when you broke down from a discussion to name calling.

Closing this thread.