Swaybars, stiffer is worse?

[spetz]

Just reading around
And some people seem to think that by adding fatter swaybars all round you are in fact going to have less cornering speed but will be more controllable

Just wondering how true this is?

I just bought a 22mm solid swaybar for the rear (stock is 18mm hollow) and was going to upgrade my front one accordingly
But will this make my car handle worse (ie, slower corner speeds?)

[DLO01]

I don't know about less conering speed, it depends. Swaybars are a great upgrade, but like a lot of things its a combination of things that really make things work.

Swaybars affect the balance of the car and should be selected to suit the car and its driver.

The only thing I can think of with what they meant is Harder is not always better. You need to "maintain" as much grip on the road as possible. Going "to hard" with swaybars/springs/damper will lessen this grip as it will be too stiff and bumpy.

[T-onedc2]

What car have you got?

A stiff rear bar will make a huge improvement in cornering, basically as you turn it keeps the front tyres planted much firmer on the road giving much better turning grip with less understeer however be aware that the back will be more likely to move out with lift off oversteer, don't try anything beyond your ability and you'll be fine. Issues arise when the front bar is too stiff and will cause more understeer. As an example I have 24mm front & 23mm rear on a DC2 and it's fantastic.

[spetz]

Are those stock ratings?

I have 18mm hollow front and 18mm hollow rear on a 2001 coupe lancer


The car runs FTO motor and suspension (brakes etc) meaning I had a stock FTO rear swaybar on but now upgraded to a whiteline 22mm FTO rear swaybar, and planning to do the front as well to maybe 20mm or so

But... is this getting too much??

I have tein coilovers, all bushes are superpro, strut braces etc in the car and want to run semi slicks

[T-onedc2]

No, stock front is 24mm (same as type r, but stock rear is 14mm)

Now I'm no expert on Mitsubishis but would it be correct to assume the 2L V6 is a fair bit heavier than the old engine?
If so I'd tend to think you could quite sensibly go to 22mm at the front just to keep body roll to a minimum and improve steering response. Maybe a Mitsu forum would be of more help on this.

[spetz]

Well I would expect the 2L to be heavier but I have heard it is only in the vicinity of 20kg heavier or so?
It is a cast iron block so it is heavy, I have 740kg over the front wheels but that's with a 21kg battery there which is getting moved to the back
I also have extractors which weight much less than the cast ones which I need to fit, and also want a carbon bonnet which is 11kg lighter
Plus searching for a lighter gearbox. I guess in the end I will have just under 700kg at the front which isn't that bad considering a B16A EG civic has 660kg over the front

Most Mitsi forums are a bunch of ricers and therefore I don't seek advice there

[T-onedc2]

Oh ok that's not as heavy as I expected, guess 22-24mm could be fine as long as the chassis mounts can handle it.

[Mr_will]

too stiff can be bad if it rips out your subframe :)

[aaronng]

Thicker at the rear reduces understeer.
Thicker at the front increases steering response but increases understeer.

Choose the correct front-rear thickness ratio taking into consideration whether it was solid or hollow. My car has a 25.4mm hollow front and 14mm solid rear stock. The result was pretty much good steering at legal limits and understeer at the limit on the track. I upgraded to a rear solid 18mm and now it turns better at the limits while being similar when driving normally.

[spetz]

Yeah the weight is bad but not as bad as expected from a cast iron V6 in a lancer.
Also the front was weighed with 17" chrome wheels but I run 16" lightweight rims

As far as ripping the subframe, I was worried about that due to you Honda boys doing it but from looking at the way it is designed, this wont happen. As the supports for the swaybar are actually on the cars chassis rails at the rear end, and I got the whiteline reinforced mounts for that. So the worst that can happen is I bend the swaybar mount, or rip it out


I think I will go around the 20mm front swaybar option but just hope this doesn't negaitvely effect handling

[Muzz]

Just reading around
And some people seem to think that by adding fatter swaybars all round you are in fact going to have less cornering speed but will be more controllable



i dont know too much on suspension yet, but after adding thick swaybars front and rear, my cornering speeds have definatly greatly increased, so far all else supension wise is stock.

Maby theyre comparing having stiffer springs Vs softer springs with stiffer swaybars though (ie. same wheel rate).

Trying to learn a little about suspension, i can tell you its so dam complicated, the more ive learnt, the more ive realised how very little i know and how complex it all is. For this reason, i tend only to listen to people/professionals who know lots about this subject (u need to evaluate weather your scource of information is relyable and knowledgable in this area).

lots if not most top level race cars use swaybars all round, and id doubt theyd do it if it means less cornering speeds.

[spetz]

Well I do think I know a fair amount about suspension. Not an expert by all means.
But a lot of workshops are idiots. In the end in some suspension places I teach the mechanics !

[Muzz]

yeh all the honda challange people i talk to in US all run swaybars, along with most race teams etc. - so id highly doubt they lower your cornering speeds!
If u get a chance, ask them why they believe they lower your cornering speeds. If they cant give a technical reason and they just say "because they just do" then i wouldnt bother to take there opionion on board.

Dont spose u know how to calculate your roll centre, or any good sites with this info do you spetz??

[spetz]

No wouldn't have a clue about the roll center
But I do/did have a technical report on how to match spring rates do your car by weighing each corner, weighing unsprung weight, calculating the geometry of the suspension and what ratio of wheel movement to shock movement etc to come up with the "correct" spring rates to use

But no, not the roll center :(

This is also an interesting read:
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/suspension_tuning.html

[Muzz]

cheers mate:thumbsup: will hav to hav a read when i get off work. I dont spose theres anyway i could get that technical report off ya by any chance?

[Muzz]

great site there:thumbsup: , iv added it to my thread - http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55663

[DLO01]

What I know is that you can go to far. It depends in what aspect your talkinf about, track/street.

With your suspension, you are tyring to maintain as much contact with the road as possible, 'all the time'. Sure a proper race track is smooth, but you take it on the street, it will be too firm for our crappy roads and too hard to maintain contact 'all the time' for street applications. A car with stock suspension will be quicker around corners then your fully suspension decked out track setup car.

Its 'more' controlable (when you loose control) with a stiffer setup than soft setup because there is less variation in body roll. With a stiffer setup the forces on each tyre are more constant and easier to control. The transition from when you loose traction to gaining it again is smoother, 'because there is less roll'. Whereas with a soft setup the forces on each tyre will vary more quicky and more abruptly because of rolling factors. The transition from when you loose traction to gaining it again is abrupt, 'because of too much roll'. Therefore harder to control.

[JasonGilholme]

The transition from when you loose traction to gaining it again is abrupt, 'because of too much roll'

This is because the springs compress more and store more energy which is then released which cause the car to roll in the other direction.

[DLO01]

Aye aye ^^^ :thumbsup:

How many times have you seen a car with a soft setup get it sideways, he tries to correct and then it sudenly flick the other way?

A stiff setup will not do this. It will be 'more' controlable.

[spetz]

I also heard that with a softer setup there isn't as much notice before it lets go rather with hard setup you have plenty of warning.

Muzz, unfortunately I can't get onto that article at this time as it's from a US Lancer site which has been down for a couple of months now :(

[Muzz]

yeah thats cool man.

[qstoria]

Most Mitsi forums are a bunch of ricers and therefore I don't seek advice there


ahhaahhahhah

[spetz]

Shut up and go back to your boyfriend! :)

It's true though
They're almost as bad as "how many kw gain if I put altezza lights on"
Well not really but they are mostly into rice looks without any of the performance. Few have 4G93T's, 4G63T's and 6A12's
Or turbo their standard engine

[Muzz]

I just bought a 22mm solid swaybar for the rear (stock is 18mm hollow) and was going to upgrade my front one accordingly
But will this make my car handle worse (ie, slower corner speeds?)

Reguarding ur original question, you will be slower at all, id say ud definatly pick up speed in the corners:thumbsup: . theres no way thatll make ur wheel rates too stiff with tein SS coilovers. Anyways give it a try, and if it does slow u down, get rid of it. Im sure u wont be, ull love it! Just be careful, till u get used to the different handling, which im sure u would be anyways.

[Limbo]

DEPENDS ON YOUR CAR'S OTHER SETUP ALSO. I.E SHOCKS ETC

Just rem if its too stiff you get no absorbance in the shocks and the car's wheels will lift off the ground at sharp bumps. Thus giving less traction.

All a matter of balance, otherwise they would of just all come out larger from factory

[Muzz]

i believe he's running tein super streets. With a 22mm rear bar, that wont be putting him anywhere near being too stiff- enough to reduce the amount of traction he has availiable, unless the roads are extremly crap.

[Muzz]

i know people running much stiffer combos (buddyclub racing spec & 22mmF/24mmR?), without it being anywhere near too stiff to negativly effect traction and handling!

Yeah if the corner is full of pot holes Etc ud probably be worse off, but ud be stupid to push the car to the limits on super shithouse roads.

[A.G.System]

***Note, I do not condone street racing in any form but there are some times that its just so tempting and if this is the case make sure that your car is set up to handle this properly.***

There is also the other point that some people are forgetting to note...

Not everyone races on tracks

Yes i know its highly illegal and dangerous BUT if this is the kind of set up that you are looking for then it would help to know what kind of roads you are trying to "race" on?????

For example a simple street set up for inner city/ city loop type stuff would be completely different to someone that drives through the foothills and other twisty roads.

I found that stiff sway bars were great at first when using stock shocks and springs in the hills but then once they are changed for something that is a better quality like a good set of coil overs the swaybars started to seem too stiff.

Thus resulting in understeer and at speeds oversteer on some corners.

If you have say a stock Lancer then find out the size of the bars that the same make evo would use and stick with that as the best size for your car. Then replace the shocks, springs and bushes to suit.

This way you are not overloading the cars chassis for what the factory believe is an optimal balance.

Other things that you may also find is that once you stiffen up your ride is that you change the way that you tackle the corners with later braking and allow the car to "drift" out of the corner more. So upgrading your pads and brakes will also help here too.

Wheel sizes also play a part as they can cause roll when the tire wall shifts the direction that your going but the rest of the car doesn't.
Finding an optimal rim to tire size will also change the way your can handles.

Remember just because your can looks pretty with 17's on it doesn't always mean that its practical.

Hope some of that helps.

[spetz]

I live in Canberra so the roads here are fairly smooth
Any road which is bumpy I avoid by going around it but if I must go on a bumpy road it's at very low speeds and I wouldn't even think of taking it hard.

Realistically the worst bumps I would encounter are say on a bridge where the slabs join etc

Everything else on the car has been done, including every single bush changed to superpro one, strut braces all round, H brace at front, tie rod brace at bottom, Tein SS coilovers and also little things like battery into boot etc is getting done and carbon bonnet for better balance

The rims are 16" at the moment and I have been thinking of running 15s but not all 15s go over my brakes and I want 16s because I plan on going bigger brakes as well
Tyres are 205/45/16 at the moment but looking at buying some semi slicks maybe around 215/45-50/16

The car isn't tracked and likely that it wont be

[aaronng]

If it is not going to be tracked, then why go full stiffness for sway bars?

[destrukshn]

If it is not going to be tracked, then why go full stiffness for sway bars?
it's ones of the those things..
"just in case"

like i'm in the process of putting a bigger turbo on my s14 atm, doesn't have to be that big.. but i want it just incase... a gtr pulls up next to me.
lol.

[aaronng]

it's ones of the those things..
"just in case"

like i'm in the process of putting a bigger turbo on my s14 atm, doesn't have to be that big.. but i want it just incase... a gtr pulls up next to me.
lol.

Except that on the street, a car that is too stiff is slower because the bumps on the road will affect the car's stability and handling at the entry and mid-corner.

[A.G.System]

Except that on the street, a car that is too stiff is slower because the bumps on the road will affect the car's stability and handling at the entry and mid-corner.

Your going to be fighting a loosing battle here dude.

MOST people believe bigger is better.

unfortunately this rule really only applies to...

Bank accounts
Hard drives
Tax returns
and Boobs (women only:eek: )

There is a balance but like a size 6 chick with size F boobs most people don't see the problem with it.

[aaronng]

Your going to be fighting a loosing battle here dude.

MOST people believe bigger is better.

unfortunately this rule really only applies to...

Bank accounts
Hard drives
Tax returns
and Boobs (women only:eek: )

There is a balance but like a size 6 chick with size F boobs most people don't see the problem with it.
Yeah....The most expensive sway bars such as Swift's come in pairs. It's all about balance.

Agreed... however, for hard drives and boobs, bigger is not always better. Bigger means you need an even BIGGER hard drive to back up your working drive and if it fails, you lose more. And bigger boobs means they sag earlier if not give the proper support.

Now where is that tax return? :p

[spetz]

Well,
First I don't think 20 and 22mm is that big for street (btw I ordered a 20mm front one in case I forgot to mention)
Secondly, this is on the stiffest setting, and they can be softened up
Thirdly, considering the very soft 5 and 4kg coilovers I have, I didn't think swaybar stiffness would cuz problems with skipping
Fourth and last, like mentioned I live in Canberra where roads are pretty good and the roads I would take corners hard at are ones without bumps in them

PS. Big boobs are better!
Size 6 girl with B size is great! :)

[A.G.System]

Well,
First I don't think 20 and 22mm is that big for street (btw I ordered a 20mm front one in case I forgot to mention)

Depends on the stock ones


Secondly, this is on the stiffest setting, and they can be softened up


Just make sure that its reinforced properly as many civic owners can vow to you that its never fun having to replace sub frames.


Thirdly, considering the very soft 5 and 4kg coilovers I have, I didn't think swaybar stiffness would cuz problems with skipping

Get it on the street then test it and let us know. remembering that most people are so shocked by the initial change that they don't realize that there is a problem until it is too late.


Fourth and last, like mentioned I live in Canberra where roads are pretty good and the roads I would take corners hard at are ones without bumps in them

Thats from all the revenue they get from Legal brothels :)

[spetz]

Well that and not all that much traffic here.
It's a drem for a modified car owner!
Cops don't even hassle you unless they catch you doing something, and car only needs to go over pits every 6 years :)

But yeah the car is a lancer and it the swaybar connects different to a Civic. The swaybar connects to the chassis rails and then to the control arms
I don't think I will be ripping my chassis rails out, at worst the mounts that go onto the rails and hook the swaybar can get bent/ripped out
Also this is an FTO swaybar (FTO and Lancer are the same car, different shell) and FTO owners haven't had issues with a 22mm doing any damage

[Muzz]

How did u find the h brace? i was wondering about how effective they are, but cant seem to find any reviews. I take its the same sorta thing as offered for the civic, in that its like a lower tie bar, yet mounts to two other solid points.