EuroAccord13's Re-Tune....(NOW WITH VIDEO ON FIRST POST)

[EuroAccord13]

This morning, I took MUGEN88 down to my tuner to have his UR UD Pulleys installed (For those of you considering this modification, TAKE NOTE, IT'S NOT AN EASY JOB) as well as His FULLY SIK Apexi NEO... This is another story for him to tell... :D

While his car was being operated on, I took the opportunity to put my hand up to have my car retuned.....

1 Hour later...

The results as follows...

126Kws @ Wheels on a nice sunny 25 Degree day!

Couldn't push anymore than 126KWs but midrange improved heaps.. If the car had gone on, the heat would have killed the Kws....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/EuroAccord13/EuroAccord/Dyno2006/WebDyno.jpg



VIDEO!!!

Pardon the quality... For some reason when it's uploaded to Photobucket and becomes a swf file.. The quality level becomes bad and jerky.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqvkl964xo

[aaronng]

Nice numbers!
Does the Euro ECU's optimising function end up confusing and messing with the VAFC's tuning? Do you require frequent retunes?

[yfin]

Good work Nick :thumbsup: - so what has changed on your car since the last tune? And did Mugen88 get his a/f controller tuned?

[TypeG]

what's mod u got b4 and after to have 14kw more beside retune?

[euro77]

well done Nick!

what's mod u got b4 and after to have 14kw more beside retune?
He got rid of the 18" chromies!!!!! LOL

hehehe... he got the header

[tron07]

I take it that the 140kw Euro specifications is at the crank then??

[yfin]

Nice numbers!
Does the Euro ECU's optimising function end up confusing and messing with the VAFC's tuning? Do you require frequent retunes?

The tune settings are stored in the VAFC so you shouldn't need retunes. The real issue I think is how long can the car achieve those numbers without the ECU adjusting a/f accordingly. Let us know if you see a drop off Nick.

[aaronng]

I take it that the 140kw Euro specifications is at the crank then??
Yes, all specifications from manufacturers are at the crank/fly.

[aaronng]

The tune settings are stored in the VAFC so you shouldn't need retunes. The real issue I think is how long can the car achieve those numbers without the ECU adjusting a/f accordingly. Let us know if you see a drop off Nick.

Yup, that's what I meant. The ECU's optimised A/F ratio is no longer optimised for the VAFCii.

[yfin]

Yup, that's what I meant. The ECU's optimised A/F ratio is no longer optimised for the VAFCii.

edit... did a look around for more info on the net. Seems like varied opinion on the VAFC for modern ECUs. Is what this chap saying about the s2000 manifold Air Pressure Sensor the same for the CL9 (vs mass airflow sensor)? I don't know the difference between these sensors. If Nick's dyno figure stays the same after a few weeks then there is the answer..

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=390966

"Depending on who you talk to, VAFC's are useless. We have a manifold Air Pressure Sensor (not a Mass Airflow Sensor). So when the VAFC adjusts the air/fuel ratio, the ECU notices that the intake manifold pressure is higher, and corrects. The only way I think the VAFC will work is with an engine management (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=390966#) unit (like AEM) that can be programmed to not correct for the pressure difference.

This is from what I have gathered. In order to gain any real gains, the ECU will need to be reset every so often, so the ECU will have to "learn" all over again about the MAP sensor readings.

Let me know what you find out....I have been looking into this as well (because the earlier AP1's run REALLY rich up top).

John "

and

"There was a thread on here, I will see if I can find it, that had a dyno sheet RIGHT after install (amazing gains). Then there was one 2 weeks later, after the ECU adapted.......and there was barely any gain anywhere (a little at the top, but not much)."

[aaronng]

edit... did a look around for more info on the net. Seems like varied opinion on the VAFC for modern ECUs. Is what this chap saying about the s2000 manifold Air Pressure Sensor the same for the CL9 (vs mass airflow sensor)? I don't know the difference between these sensors. If Nick's dyno figure stays the same after a few weeks then there is the answer..

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=390966

"Depending on who you talk to, VAFC's are useless. We have a manifold Air Pressure Sensor (not a Mass Airflow Sensor). So when the VAFC adjusts the air/fuel ratio, the ECU notices that the intake manifold pressure is higher, and corrects. The only way I think the VAFC will work is with an engine management (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=390966#) unit (like AEM) that can be programmed to not correct for the pressure difference.

This is from what I have gathered. In order to gain any real gains, the ECU will need to be reset every so often, so the ECU will have to "learn" all over again about the MAP sensor readings.

Let me know what you find out....I have been looking into this as well (because the earlier AP1's run REALLY rich up top).

John "

and

"There was a thread on here, I will see if I can find it, that had a dyno sheet RIGHT after install (amazing gains). Then there was one 2 weeks later, after the ECU adapted.......and there was barely any gain anywhere (a little at the top, but not much)."
He's a little confused. It is not a matter of MAF vs MAP. Even B series runs MAP, and VAFC works fine on them.

The issue is that VAFC is an interceptor. It gets readings from sensors and outputs a different optimised value to the ECU so that the ECU makes changes that gives you more power.

So:
Signal1 + VAFC modification1 = Input1.
Input1 + ECU = Optimised A/F ratio

Once you tune the VAFC to perfection, all is fine and dandy. Until while you are driving and the ECU continues to optimise your A/F ratio. Then what you get is:

Signal1 + VAFC modification1 = Input1
Input1 + ECU (reoptimised) = Unoptimised A/F ratio

So even if the VAFC is doing what you programmed it to, the ECU with its constantly optimising algorithm just further messes with the input signal, leading to an A/F ratio that not the same as when you dyno tuned.

The ECU also has Open-loop and Closed-loop modes. Closed-loop is used when there are smaller throttle opening and when in lowcam. I think that closed-loop operation with VAFC is not affected by the optimisation. But open-loop is. And open-loop is what matters when you are doing full throttle acceleration runs.

BTW, I noticed in one of the threads linked in that s2ki thread, they posted up VAFC settings. I'm pretty shocked by the poor resolution of the VAFC:


LVT
1000 = 0
2000 = 0
3100 = -5
3600 = -4
4000 = -6
4500 = -10
5500 = -11
5900 = -11

HVT
5500 = -4
5900 = -4
6100 = 0
6500 = -4
7400 = -3
7800 = -5
8400 = -10
9000 = -9

[aaronng]

AEM just announced a new piggyback at SEMA 2006. Instead of intercepting inputs and leaving a chance for the ECU to reoptimise, this AEM Fuel & Ignition Controller (FIC) intercepts OUTPUTS! So this might work with the Euro's ECU.

http://vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=631542

[Suntzu]

So the retune was the hondata one??

And you've got CAI and a header as well. What mods did you have on the original graph run? Compared to the new graph run? Just interested in what gains did what.

Looks very good to me though.

Hows the mid range in normal driving compared to stock?

[aaronng]

So the retune was the hondata one??

And you've got CAI and a header as well. What mods did you have on the original graph run? Compared to the new graph run? Just interested in what gains did what.

Looks very good to me though.

Hows the mid range in normal driving compared to stock?

He uses the VAFCii. Not Hondata.

[EuroAccord13]

As far as I know, the ECU hasn't overwritten the VAFCii tune because the output Kws when it was originally tuned was the same figure as a dyno run I had performed a few months later when Yfin and Euro77 were both at the workshop...


The original figure was done only with an exhaust and CAI, the latest one is a full retune for the whole RPM range with the only added bit being the headers.

[TypeG]

only a header and retune gave you 14kw gain?
that's HUGE

[EuroAccord13]

only a header and retune gave you 14kw gain?
that's HUGE


You have to take into account that the headers are complemented with the CAI and zorst to make this figure, if it was just headers alone, the gains will be less with the VAFCii.

With the VAFCii, it has got more potential for gains if there are more modifications to feed the car to start with..

Between the three modifications, a set of decent headers will provide the largest gains.

[TypeG]

You have to take into account that the headers are complemented with the CAI and zorst to make this figure, if it was just headers alone, the gains will be less with the VAFCii.

With the VAFCii, it has got more potential for gains if there are more modifications to feed the car to start with..

Between the three modifications, a set of decent headers will provide the largest gains.
A set of decent modification will provide the largest gains for sure :cool:

[mugen88]

A set of decent modification will provide the largest gains for sure :cool:

Hey Gas hav u installed the Blitz R-vit i-color yet?

Can you give us an idea of performance tunning parameters and ease of use?

[TypeG]

Hey Gas hav u installed the Blitz R-vit i-color yet?

Can you give us an idea of performance tunning parameters and ease of use?


errrrrrrrrrrr
Rvit is just a monitor like rsm plus temp and pressure sensor.

[mugen88]

errrrrrrrrrrr
Rvit is just a monitor like rsm plus temp and pressure sensor.

Oh I thought it did more than that.

[TypeG]

nah
some more rice thing for track use as i hate those gauages on my dash

[Eclipsor]

The ECU also has Open-loop and Closed-loop modes. Closed-loop is used when there are smaller throttle opening and when in lowcam. I think that closed-loop operation with VAFC is not affected by the optimisation. But open-loop is. And open-loop is what matters when you are doing full throttle acceleration runs.



Pretty sure it's the other way round. Any closed loop system uses a feedback loop to alter the incoming signal using a function of the output to self correct to a particular value.

[yfin]

only a header and retune gave you 14kw gain?
that's HUGE

So how is it to drive now Nick?

[EuroAccord13]

So how is it to drive now Nick?


The car already felt better when I had the Headers put in... My butt dyno at that time told me the mid range improved and my base dyno on Saturday showed that...

Now that it's got a re-tune, I feel the car has got more torque to push...

*PM'ed you*

[yourfather]

it sounds nice :P

[Suntzu]

Would you say that it fells any quicker off the mark and in gear rolling acceleration? or is it really to small to make any real world difference. Im mostly interested in beefing the midrange.

[EuroAccord13]

I won't say it's quicker off the mark but rolling acceleration definitely improved... even on uphill against a certain someone...

[yourfather]

Krogoth still smashed both of you in his ES civic.

Mind you, he did have like 3 metres head start hahah

[EuroAccord13]

Krogoth still smashed both of you in his ES civic.

Mind you, he did have like 3 metres head start hahah

You sure?

I remember clearly he got owned by us two Euros....

[yourfather]

sarcasm :P

[mugen88]

I won't say it's quicker off the mark but rolling acceleration definitely improved... even on uphill against a certain someone...

There is always next time.

[EuroAccord13]

There is always next time.


I'll tell you if there is a next time when I test drive your car after the Dynotune.... :p :p :p

*Rant at having to wake up so early to go there so that you can show it off on Saturday* :wave:

[mugen88]

I'll tell you if there is a next time when I test drive your car after the Dynotune.... :p :p :p

*Rant at having to wake up so early to go there so that you can show it off on Saturday* :wave:

U know u want to lah!!:p

[euro77]

he's not having another dyno, is he? or he might, with the claim should be cooler day hahahaha :P

[EuroAccord13]

he's not having another dyno, is he? or he might, with the claim should be cooler day hahahaha :P


Who are you talking about?:D

[euro77]

Who are you talking about?:D


YOU of course!! who else :p:p:p

[EuroAccord13]

No it won't be me, it will be MUGEN88's car...

[euro77]

No it won't be me, it will be MUGEN88's car...

Haiyaaa... I know lah! I was teasing you :cool:

[EuroAccord13]

Haiyaaa... I know lah! I was teasing you :cool:



Bugger............................................ ..

My next target is to push 130kws with a little minor mod that I have in mind....

[Atjo]

Hey Nick, if you join the autosalon semi-final you would won 4-cylinder dyno trophy hehe the winner only got 114Kw

[TypeG]

Hey Nick, if you join the autosalon semi-final you would won 4-cylinder dyno trophy hehe the winner only got 114Kw

114kw.. good for a show car =)

[EuroAccord13]

Video Uploaded....

[TypeG]

good effort for that video

[Chris_F]

nice video! after using that song though we need some pictures of your car with the interior stripped out "let me see you stripped" ;)

[EuroAccord13]

nice video! after using that song though we need some pictures of your car with the interior stripped out "let me see you stripped" ;)


Been thinking about that...:D Chris.... Wonder how much weight I will lose LOL!

[Suntzu]

What video?????

[euro77]

What video????? See first post!!! :p

[aaronng]

Nick, you should use youtube and embed it. Much better quality than photobucket.

[Chris_F]

Been thinking about that...:D Chris.... Wonder how much weight I will lose LOL!

i took my interior out (including spare) for shits and giggles and went and weighed it and it was 1320kg with half a tank of fuel - a saving of about 30kg or so i think. :D:thumbsup:

[EuroAccord13]

i took my interior out (including spare) for shits and giggles and went and weighed it and it was 1320kg with half a tank of fuel - a saving of about 30kg or so i think. :D:thumbsup:

That is not alot... easier to run 1/4 tank and still save 30kgs :cool: and without the hassle of putting everything back in again :)

Good one for trying it out Chris :)

[BiLL|z0r]

I took my interior out (including spare) for shits and giggles

LOL. You really have too much time on ya hands.

[kam]

wat 1/4 mile time did you do?

that clip of the blue vs grey euro - the grey euro got completeley pwn3d

[Chris_F]

That is not alot... easier to run 1/4 tank and still save 30kgs :cool: and without the hassle of putting everything back in again :)

Good one for trying it out Chris :)

hehe that's only the rear seats and spare wheel/tools... you could save more weight if you wanted to go crazy, take out door panels and carpet etc. accord race cars get down as low as 1140kg including the driver, now that weight saving would totally change the car.


LOL. You really have too much time on ya hands.

lol yep, that's uni for ya - though i can take it out in about 15 minutes if i wanted to now ;)

[aaronng]

wat 1/4 mile time did you do?

that clip of the blue vs grey euro - the grey euro got completeley pwn3d
The grey Euro launched late. But Nick totally owned the other 2 cars.

[Chris_F]

The grey Euro launched late. But Nick totally owned the other 2 cars.

yea totally... what was the 1/4 time? I'm interested as well

[EuroAccord13]

But Nick totally owned the other 2 cars.


Hahaha ! That's because I never put up the videos of me being totally owned by the old skool Monaros and Hot Rods LOL!

[aaronng]

Hahaha ! That's because I never put up the videos of me being totally owned by the old skool Monaros and Hot Rods LOL!

Owning 3 cars out of the other runs is good. Civics will own my car. haha

[euro77]

LOL that grey euro is me. even when launching together, still got owned by nick, except from 0-60 ft I own Nick :D

[aaronng]

LOL that grey euro is me. even when launching together, still got owned by nick, except from 0-60 ft I own Nick :D

What was your ET?

[euro77]

What was your ET?
Sorry, can't remember, couldn't find the time slip. It's probably high 16s or low 17s.
I did have the subwoofer, amps etc weighing down the car (un-removable) LOL

[euro77]

actually I find a copy of the scanned image, 16.1079 secs 0-400.

[EuroAccord13]

Heck.. my 0-60ft time sucked.... On top of that, I was tuning the car so I was launching at under 2000RPM

[kam]

aueoaccord13 - wats your quarter mile times

[EuroAccord13]

aueoaccord13 - wats your quarter mile times

15.5 on 38 degree day with 36psi all round and launching at 2000RPM... (And I ****ed up my tuning LOL!)

[tron07]

nice video [tb]