Ebrake + Spongy pedal issues, dodgy mechanic? A long tale.

[Rasputin]

Noticing that my pedal was spongy, and could be pushed right into the floor (when force was applied), and that my handbrake was no longer holding me on hills properly, I took it into a local brake specialist.
The diagnosis was that I needed a new master cylinder, and that my pads and rotors needed replacing (rotors have done 210,000k's).

After getting slotted RDA's and ebc greens on (which took three days) as well as the new master cylinder, the pedal feel is still the same.

On the first day, The rear pads and rotors had been done, and the MC changed. (The fronts were untouched because the wrong pads were ordered, and they didn't want to put new rotors and old pads together)
I would have thought that this would have solved both problems, and the MC should fix the pedal feel, and the pads+rotors would have fixed the e-brake issue.
Unfortunately, there was no difference in either. I was told this was because the handbrake hadn't been tightened in the calipers (I suppose they forgot) and that the pedal feel was just because they hadn't bled the brakes yet, as they would have to do it all again after they did the front rotors anyway.

On the second day, I waited three hours (they told me it was a while-u-wait job, easy as) until they came out and told me that the re-ordered front pads were accidentally not mailed yet. Whatever.

On the third day, the job was done. The handbrake was a little better, but I was told that the calipers couldn't go any tighter, and that I must need new cables (why he didn't buy new cables and fix my problem, I have no idea). The main problem was that the pedal was THE SAME!
The mech. argued and said it was fixed, then later agreed it was spongy, but that this was due to the new brakes 'bedding in' and should be fine after 500ks or so. He also said of the pedal going to the floor "well, that's going to happen on all cars when you keep pushing on them", and that the problem had been fixed.

He was telling me that originally the brakes had been sinking when you rested your foot lightly on it...a problem that I never noticed, and that they didn't know about when they told me a master cylinder would fix the spongy-feel issue...so if this pedal-to-the-floor thing is normal, why did they tell me to buy a new MC?
Also, I had the idea to look through my service history yesterday, and my MC was changed 50,000k's ago. New, not rebuilt. How often should this need replacing?

Could anything else be the issue? I.e. brake booster, booster air filter, etc? The hoses were inspected, but I don't know if I can trust any of that now, as apprently everything was OK'd already.
Sorry that this was so long, but I've spent a grand and three on my brakes and my original problems are still persisting and I feel unsafe. If anyone has any info it'd be much appreciated.

Edit: Also, this was only a few days ago and light, tiny orange surface rust has started already on the rotors. Is this normal?

[yourfather]

did they bleed your fluid??

I would've hoped that they did that too!

if it has boiled, that would be an issue too.

plus, whats up with them saying your brakes are done, and then they re-do them and say your front pads werent' mailed?

I dont get it.

UM ~ with your hand brake, what they didnt try and tighten it in your console???

I dunno man, sounds like a guy who doesnt know wtf he is doing

Oh and yeah, the rust thing is kinda normal man...

Just check they actually changed your rotors....

Cuz, I've seen people put marks on their oil filters, take their car for service, and they get charged for replaced oil filter and its still the original one on there.

[Rasputin]

Well, the MC was changed, so wouldn't it be all new fluid? Or would they just 'top it up'?
I asked them to put in better fluid, anyhow. They did a bleed...or so they said, after they installed the front brakes. But i was just freaking out the whole time because they'd constantly say "Yep, it's done, took it for a test drive" and then when i came back complaining, there'd be a new reason it wasn't right yet...even though they'd just told me it was all good.


Definately new pads and rotors. RDA slotted and EBC Greens. You can't miss 'em.
Definately new Master Cylinder, the wiring is obviously new, bright blue new fluid sitting in it, is clean as.

In the console, the handbrake has been adjusted to being fully on, i.e. unable to be pulled any further, in 7 clicks. Could adjusting it more help? Honda specs say 6-7 clicks. They said they adjusted it in the caliper. I played around with the setting in the console the other day, but it didn't seem to affect anything other than the amount of clicks.

Thanks for the crazy fast reply.

[aaronng]

Definately new Master Cylinder, the wiring is obviously new, bright blue new fluid sitting in it, is clean as.


WTF BLUE FLUID!??!!?!?!? Honda and Castrol brake fluid is meant to be yellow in colour for DOT3/4!!!!!!!

[Rasputin]

Bright blue. I thought it looked odd, but I figured being brake specialists they knew what they were doing. Is this another bad sign?

How long does an MC last, on average?

The work they did on my clutch was fine, although they didn't mention it had a bedding in period.

I convinced the mechanic to put it in writing that if I'm not happy with the work after the 'bedding in' 500k's, he'll put my old MC back in. I'll just have to check it hasnt been sabotaged....but I really don't want these guys touching my car anymore, especially when they have to do the work for free, I don't really trust them.
I'm just glad that I made them hold onto my old rotors+pads+mc.

[fatboyz39]

sounds like there's air in the system.

[Benson]

Dude, i reckon u shuld take ur car back to them and tell them to do it probably....

shuldnt haven paid them the money if u dont feel comfortable driving it.... brakes are the most important things on the roads!!.

[Jomsy]

Get a second opinion cause this guy doen't seem to know what he is doing, he replaced just about everything in the brake system and its still not fixed, im guessing at a great expense to you....

Once you get the problem sorted take him to the MVRIC and get your money back off him for work you didnt need done

[aaronng]

Our 94 Accord is still running on its original MC. We don't push it hard though, but it has gone through 3 sets of brake pads already.

[JasonGilholme]

Dude it sounds like you've been ripped.

After changing pads & rotors your pedal feel should be good after one or two stops.

These guys obviously don't know what they're doing and have no regard for the safety of your car. Quite frankly they should be workin on cars, especially brakes.

Also, tell me how the pedal goes to the floor on every car when its a fully sealed hydrolic system?? The only time it will go to the floor is when its an unsealsed system (faulty master cylinder, slave cylinders, broken lines. etc.)

[newmski]

i have the same problem with my handbrake in the civic. i have adjusted it correctly (6 clicks) through the console part but it still doesnt hold my car properly and is impossible to lock up even on grass. this is with new dba slotted rotors and endless pads. my normal braking is great just the e-brake is useless

[Rice_4_life]

i have the same problem with my handbrake in the civic. i have adjusted it correctly (6 clicks) through the console part but it still doesnt hold my car properly and is impossible to lock up even on grass. this is with new dba slotted rotors and endless pads. my normal braking is great just the e-brake is useless

isnt adjusting from console just gonna mak ur handbrake feel better? thought u had to adjust them from either the drum or under the car.. anyone wanna confirm this for me :P

[JasonGilholme]

I thought it doesn't really matter. Essentially they're both just putting more tension on the cable which is then passed on the discs/drums...

[Rasputin]

That's what I thought. But anyhow, thanks to everyone for being so helpful. If anyone has any more answers to my questions that'd be great. Am taking it in for a second opinion tomorrow, and will be calling Fair Trading/MVRIC afterwards, so I'll keep this updated.

[green_machine]

dude i fink you should take it somewhere else and get a second opinion...
check all ur brake lines comin from ur claipers sounds to me like ur gettin air/moisture in ur lines somewhere visually inspect urself

[yourfather]

updates?

[destrukshn]

maybe your booster is leaking.

[Rasputin]

I took the car to another brakes specialist, but he wanted to know who did the work before we went for the test drive.

He told me that while the car is stationary pedal-to-the-floor is normal. And that yeah, a bleed might help to remove further sponginess while braking, but that he couldn't get it much better.

He also told me that the handbrake cables couldn't be stretched because if they were, the handle would be pulling up almost vertical. (Though I thought that wouldn't happen since it's been altered in the console, so that it only travels a certain distance)

He was fairly confident that all problems would be solved after the brakes had bedded in ovver 500ks, and been bled again.

But this still begs the questions: Did my MC need replacing in the first place, and is it possible for me to get an e-brake that can actually hold me on a proper hill (i.e one that you'd have to take in 3rd gear, not 4th)

[JasonGilholme]

Dude, i just changed my pads and discs and haven't had any change in pedal feel at all. Even before i bedded them in.

Also, i've never been in a car where the pedal goes to the floor when your sitting still. however, i have been in a car, going down hill, when the brakes failed and the pedal went to the floor, so i know the difference between the two.

Blue brake fluid?? go and buy yourself some OEM honda fluid and find someone that knows how to bleed brakes properly. (GO TO A HONDA DEALER) Chances are they've put some sort of tranny fluid (or some other sort of fluid) in there instead of brake fluid which won't give you the pressure you need to operate the brakes correctly.

Where abouts you from? Might wanna get some knowledgable OH people to come and have a squiz at your car because chances are they know more then the mechanics that have been workin on your car.

[Rasputin]

Central Coast, NSW.

Work in hornsby/wahroongah in Sydney though.

Also, I'll take some pics of two things that confuse me about the install.

If I could get a second opinion from a knowlegeable member I'd be so grateful. I mean, I got a second opinion from that mechanic but they're all in the same business, and know each other.

[JasonGilholme]

yeah man, post up some pics :thumbsup:

[Rasputin]

Front Brake:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/bleeding_sun/frontbrakes.jpg


Rear Brake:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/bleeding_sun/rearbrakes.jpg

[JasonGilholme]

Front Disc: Looks like they haven't installed the pads correctly. OEM front pads have this long metal piece comin off the pads. The aftermarket pads i bought didn't have this piece but if the pads do have it they need to go in the correct way. This could be your problem, or one of the metal locking clips have fallen down (doubtful)

: it could be one of the shims that hasn't been put in the right way. You don't really need the shims, you can take them out if you want to.

Rear: I don't think thats anything to worry about. i'll check mine next time i go out to my car.

Have you ever done any work on a car before?? I always thought brakes were the hardest part but then my dad showed me how easy it was to change pads and i've done my own ever since. Maybe if your nice enough, someone thats local to you might be able to show you how to chagne the pads and that way you can fix that problem with your front pads yourself without havin to go back to ANOTHER dodgey mechanic.

[yourfather]

my rear oem pads look similar

[Rasputin]

Thanks mate. Just because I know they ordered the wrong front pads the first time, and was worried the pads on the back may also have been wrong, but they didnt notice/care.

I just want my money back, and my old rotors and pads, and to go somewhere else. I really don't want to have to feel like this after throwing a grand at the car.