Gen2 CRX - B18 or Turbo charge, Any suggestion

[flypig]

Hi everyone,

Friend of mine offer me to buy a 88 CRX with 115,000km at very cheap price. I am thinking of putting a b18 or turbo on the current D series Non-Vtec 1.6lt.

The purpose of buying this car is purely for track/circuit only.

Any suggestion. with $10-12k on top of the car.

Many thanks.....

[JasonGilholme]

Alot of the most reliable track cars are NA.

Reliability is sometimes more important then all out power.

[VTi_b0i]

yeahh wat he said^^ lmfao
man for that much on top of buying the car, you could get a k20a in there... thats what id be doing...

[flypig]

Any idea how much the K20a's front cut? I been told that K20a very hard to get. And $10-12k includes Sus. I/H/E, ECU, tyres etc...

[czy_sol87]

i say leave the current engine for now, cause its only got 115XXXkms on it which is really low for the age of the car
do ur suspension first then test the car, if u feel it need more power, i would go with the b18c and make it a reliable N/A on the track, the last thing u wanna be doin is missing all the track days because ur turbo is not tuned properly or u've blown and engine

[CRXer]

If u paid other people to do the entire conversion for u,u'll be strugglin to put a B18C into an ED for $9k,a B18CR for $11k,as for a K20............I'd hate to think what that would cost.........certainly not less than $12k

[HwyStar]

flypig, your budget is 10K?
For that amount you can have whatever engine platform you want...

CRXer, a K20A2 sold on ebay a few months back for 5k flat (melb I think)

[Snoop_gee]

Mis conception that a K series is 10g if thats teh case then you would have seen 2 crx's already on teh road with k20's in them by now.

Dont be fooled. A k20 conversion is not cheap and you have to think carefully of all teh things involved.

Not just a half cut.
Engine mounts in 1 has to be welded on, drive shafts, custom radiator as the hoses will now have to come out on the other side (left) as teh pulleys are on the right. Then bonnet clearance issues.
Powersteering will have to be axed if your expecting the majority bonnet to stay as is. Instead of being cut up.
http://www.nonterraquous.co.uk/pics/crx/k20/DSCF0133.jpg
http://www.nonterraquous.co.uk/pics/crx/k20/DSCF0134.jpg

So far costs including supply and fitment of a k20 into a gen2 approx equals close to 15-20g its not cheap and if u want a realli nice reliable track CRX for teh budget specified.A b18c gen2 is nice as, i've been in my friends one and its awesome as!It is a fair change from teh d16a lump 1.6L non-vtec to 1.8L vtec!

go for it...!
More than welcome to keep asking questions.
as i've nearly seen em all. LS-teg b16a in gen2crx, b18crx, h22a crx, onli thing missing as yet is a k20 in a CRX! But u should consider costs thoroughly before jumping into it........

[flypig]

Thanks guy,

that's way toooooo expensive (k20a).

I just got a quote from a workshop - turbo charge - rebuild engine (piston, rod etc.) and T28 / fuel pump/ bigger injectors/full exhaust/microtech & tune for $14,500. but guarantee 180-200kw@FW

[flypig]

Turbo charge - reaonable ????

[VTi_b0i]

it could be just me but dayum! that seems so expensive!

[Snoop_gee]

i realli dont think i would go to spend all that much for a turbo setup.When a conversion to the same value would be more reliable.

[czy_sol87]

i realli dont think i would go to spend all that much for a turbo setup.When a conversion to the same value would be more reliable.

yes exactly what i said, especially if its gonna only be a track car
good on ya gee!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
as others have said already, use half ur budget for suspension, and the other half for whatever engine converstion u want

[VTi_b0i]

yes it will be more reliable but alot slower haha...BUT seeing as it is a track cari would also go NA, because you can make up the time on corners...
I would spend as much of the money as possible on the suspension as its for track... so it doesnt have to have 300kw atw LOL

[saxman]

a high performance n/a motor is going to have just as many reliability issues as a well tuned turbo motor.

[Snoop_gee]

a high performance n/a motor is going to have just as many reliability issues as a well tuned turbo motor.
i actually want to contend that....


A turbo motor is always gonna be hottor in temperature. And not once have i seen a turbo CRX used for track use in australia. Surely there would be a very valid reason as to why people are reluctant to.

Yes i have seen them on the drag strip but hardly if not @ all on teh track not to say that it cant be done. Of the many CRX track drivers in australia have done conversions b16a's and b18c's :cool: :thumbsup:

and so far no real problems at all. Do your regular maintance checks and service before and after racing... wat more could u want and need to do !?!?!

[panda[cRx]]

when was the last time you were at the track gee?

a well tuned turbo at a reasonable boost level wll be fine (ie. not crazy amounts of boost)

[Snoop_gee]

try mid this year

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/d/169361-1/geeshoeicrx.jpg

[saxman]

what are you comparing a turbo motor against? A completely stock motor, or a built, high comp, high revving n/a motor?

[Q_ball]

^He did say a high performance NA motor Snoop D O G G lol
Not stock motor.

[saxman]

Exactly... a high performance n/a motor will never have the reliability of a turbo motor. Loads on the internals are much greater, everything has to be pushed harder.

There's a reason some of the most succesful racing teams in the world use turbo motors. If you want to talk about reliability on the track, look into how many turbo motors are used in the 24hrs of lemans races, and compare their overall reliability to the n/a motors.

[flypig]

Thanks guys for all your info & suggestions.

All I want is a reliable/power engine, looking somewhere 140-150kw@wheels.
otherwise going to have problems getting the power to the ground and under - under - understeer /spin all the time.

I am racing with car club at moment, CAMS NSW supersprint and usually runs at Eastern Creek, Oran Park & Wakefield Park and currently I am racing with my 04 Accord Euro. Its too heavy & lots of bodyroll down the corners. Thats why I am looking for a light car with a good power/weight ratio.

Suspension set up for the CRX will be coilovers/rollcage/sway bars/front and rear strut bars/ camber kits & remove air cond/carpets and all unnecessary things. But seems so costly to convert to B18CR or even B16A. $10k just straight convertion without modify.:confused:

[Mr. Focus]

dont bother with a b16a conversion when you can buy an SiR with it already in there. turbo'ing the 'd' is a viable option and has been tried and tested by many....jump onto CRXAUS (www.crxaustralia.com) and have a looksie

Snoops a hater of the 'd' for his reasons. i myself am a fan and shall hve myself a boosted one in the near future

[saxman]

140-150kw atw's is very easy to achieve in a turbo D with great reliability.

[fatboyz39]

i'd would say go for a b18c :p... they are great motor and has more torque than a b16a... with a couple of bolt-on mods for a b18c and u can easily pull 125-130kws

[Dylanamus]

I agree with the majority. Put an unopened b18cR in there and just add the usual bolt ons and maybe a piggy back ECU and get it all tuned. That will be very reliable and you'll probably find it pulls hard enough to stop you from getting bored between corners.

And seriously consider the percentage of your budget you're willing to spend on handling. I wouldn't go any less than 50% in favour of handling if it's to be a track car. In fact, my incling for a fwd lightweight track car would be to go more like 70% handling, but that's just me.

[flypig]

Guys,

Thanks for all your suggestions, Its all come down to B18C or Turbo D16. moneywise, they all pretty similar. With turbo - I will not running high boost at all, I am looking for reliable engine that is able to handle continues high rev for around 10-15 mins each session. Just got 2 quotes today

1. rebuild D16 engine, Garret T28/ intercooler/manifold/exhaust and other little bits & pieces -$14,000.

2. Straight B18C conversion (depends on the cost of front cut) all other mods extra - $9,500-$10,000 (dont forget that the engine could be over 100,000km

Which one is better choice/value for long run?

[flypig]

How about standard internal runs low boost said 7-8 psi. Would I still achieve 130-150kw@wheels? It will cost $5-6k cheaper.

[VTi_b0i]

why not get a b1c VTi-R motor, cause its cheaper, and rebuild it with cams, pistons etc? should be a bullet-proof motor which inturn will make more power then a type R motor and be like brand new aswell?

[fatboyz39]

My mate just turbo'ed his D-series motor, he made 130kw atw on 8-9psi. He motor is stock with a bolt-on kit.

But if your building a track car then go n/a, less headache, reliable, high revving.


A b18c in a CRX will fly let alone D series turbo. Remember there only 900kg, 120-130kw atw will have a awesome power to weight ratio.

[saxman]

high reving = more stress on internals than from a turbo

[ProECU]

high reving = more stress on internals than from a turbo

Absolutely True... F = ma... physics at work people.

[SINISTR]

Im tempted to say go B18C over the turbo for a Track Car... I could be wrong and will not argue with people like SaXman and ProECU who have years of experience in building motors BUT.... this is my view:

a d16A8 is only a 1.6L. It has decent torque for what it is but in comparison with B18C, K20A, Lotus Eliss, their 2+ litres will KILL the 1.6L with bottom end torque and by the time you spool up, you'll be at a corner, you drop speed, you drop boost and you have to spool up again, while many other NA cars are going ahead. ofcourse there will be the 'finer' points of racing, driver vs driver and setups but everything else aside - you'll need time to get up to speed.

Reliability aside in my understanding THAT is the main reason why I wouldn't go turbo for a track car. If you're racing against cars with already bigger capacity turbo motors, you're battling their engine capacity at the very beginning.

Reliability - as the guys said - yes a turbo can be reliable - but alot more expensive to fix then a replacement of a Stockish B18C. You'll spend 10K on a B18C conversion, 14K on a TurboD build.
If you kill the D - you're looking at about 10K in rebuild costs for block, pistons, headwork etc etc money money... money.
If you kill the B18C you're looking at about 5K in a full replacement since the installation is done ONCE.
Plus if it costs you 10K for a B18C you can spend 4K on cams, ecu, extractors, tuning etc to get more out of the B.

Anyway - thats the way I'd look at it especially as you're competing in propper events not just random tuning days etc.

[nigs]

You're building on (dare I say) a poor platform.
D series gear box vs ITR box with closer gears and shorter FD. Bonus LSD :D
Boosted vs liner N/A power.
Stock ECU vs Questionable Tune for Aftermarket ECU

Just to name a few things. I believe the characteristics of the motor is pretty important. Fairly high rev's may give you more freedom when entering/exiting a corner. Different power bands matter. Low torque from a turbo is great but exiting with no LSD and lots of power isn't gonna get you far.
If it is infact a all out track car, BALANCE is all you want. With a car that only weighs ~900kg, superb suspension setup is all you really need.

You're too focus on the final power output and IMO that's not what track car is about. That's what drag cars and dyno queens are about.
You may make 150fwkw but how long will it take to get there and how long can u stay there till you have to shift?
Not saying that a Turbo D can't pull it off as a track car. But how much do you have to spend to get it there?

Anything and everything is possible with both time and money.
Some of us have neither :(

[saxman]

wait wait wait


you're talking about torque... and giving the advantage to the n/a motors?

doesn't work like that.

forced induction makes torque. n/a honda motors do not make torque.

All of the concerns mentioned regarding turbo spool and such can be addressed with a proper set up. Not every turbo has to have late spool.. there are other options.

The fact of the matter is that a turbo motor will make way more power reliably, actually produce torque, and if set up properly, can have no spool issues. When it comes to "getting up to speed", the turbos win hands down.

I think the prices you're quoting are rediculous too. Yes, things cost more out there, however, with a D16, if you blow a motor, parts are VERY cheap. If you damage the block, they're VERY cheap to replace. Shop around before coming up with prices like that.

If you're going to be tracking the car seriously, you'll get very hands on with the motor unless money is of no object to you. In this case, the only labor costs you would have would be machine work on the internals.

What happens if you blow a turbo D catasrophically(which will happen if you're seriously tracking the motor)? Need a new block, and maybe new pistons/rods. Not that expensive.

What happens if you blow a built b18cr? Need a new block, which will cost WAY more, and then all you have is a stock motor.

There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding turbo set ups on hondas. In the end, they make way more power, for less money, with better reliability than a built n/a motor. It's simply physics.

[saxman]

You're building on (dare I say) a poor platform.
D series gear box vs ITR box with closer gears and shorter FD. Bonus LSD :D
Boosted vs liner N/A power.
Stock ECU vs Questionable Tune for Aftermarket ECU

Just to name a few things. I believe the characteristics of the motor is pretty important. Fairly high rev's may give you more freedom when entering/exiting a corner. Different power bands matter. Low torque from a turbo is great but exiting with no LSD and lots of power isn't gonna get you far.
If it is infact a all out track car, BALANCE is all you want. With a car that only weighs ~900kg, superb suspension setup is all you really need.

You're too focus on the final power output and IMO that's not what track car is about. That's what drag cars and dyno queens are about.
You may make 150fwkw but how long will it take to get there and how long can u stay there till you have to shift?
Not saying that a Turbo D can't pull it off as a track car. But how much do you have to spend to get it there?

Anything and everything is possible with both time and money.
Some of us have neither :(

All great points for supporting a turbo.
You want balance, which means a broad torque curve. Something a proper turbo set up offers that a high reving n/a motor doesn't.

Like you said, it's about how long it takes to get there and how long you can stay there. A turbo offers lower rpm peak power and a broader power curve. You get there sooner, and stay there longer.


And it's worth mentioning that there are plenty of LSD's available for the D series trannies, and with a broader torque curve comes the ability to make better use of a longer ratio gearbox, expanding your power range even more.

[nigs]

wait wait wait


you're talking about torque... and giving the advantage to the n/a motors?

doesn't work like that.

forced induction makes torque. n/a honda motors do not make torque.

All of the concerns mentioned regarding turbo spool and such can be addressed with a proper set up. Not every turbo has to have late spool.. there are other options.

The fact of the matter is that a turbo motor will make way more power reliably, actually produce torque, and if set up properly, can have no spool issues. When it comes to "getting up to speed", the turbos win hands down.


No, I was saying the turbo will always generate more torque, especially in LOW RPMS.
And yes, I want to point out that the RIGHT turbo setup will produce excellent results. I however have yet to see one IRL :(
They all made good power but their power band sucked nuts IMO and none lasted too long. Always poor tune, bad turbo selection or tired motor that just let go.

There are just alot of things to consider but if done right will always work out but that's rarely the case for the average end user (with a budget).

[flypig]

Quick question:
Lower final drive will slow your top end speed right? some of the track with long straight will hit over 200km. then if you lower the FD then you might stay @180-190km max.??? I did 190-200km down Eastern Creek straight (Accord Euro). So lower FD you will accelerate quicker (standstill) but lost your top end????

[saxman]

poor tune, bad turbo selection, and using damaged goods will do that...

none of that has to do with turbo error... that's all user error.

[nigs]

We don't live in a perfect world :zip:

[flypig]

Would a smaller turbo will avoid the late spool?

[saxman]

true, but it's not that difficult to select a proper turbo, inspect the motor prior to use, and have someone competent tune it. Just requires going into the process with lots of knowledge.

You can have the exact same problems going into an n/a build without the proper knowledge.

[saxman]

Would a smaller turbo will avoid the late spool?

smaller turbo = quicker spool, generally a broader torque curve, sooner peak power, but overall less power

generally at least... this is a broad generalization, but the basic concept. Doesn't work exactly like that, but more or less.

[flypig]

I suppose tracking racing is different to drag racing or someother racings (street etc) Suspension/ chasis/camber makes big different with right setup. My euro with/without coilovers - 5 SECONDS different @ Eastern Creek.
This CRX would be my fourth Honda and I found that all Hondas lack of torque & high rev engine, on the track you do drop back your RPM to approx 4000rpm sometime (coming out the corners) and you find takes so long to get the power back on till 6500-7000rpm.thats why one of my initial plan was to turbo the D engine.

[VTi_b0i]

well if u really want torque, have u considered a b20 frank conversion? relatively cheap to build, and you can get 130kw atw fairly simply...however i have heard that the blocks arent ideal for tracking as the cylindar walls are pretty thin...maybe that could be fixed tho?

[saxman]

b20 torque is nothing compared to turbo d torque and you still don't get the power band

[VTi_b0i]

but thats if he decides he wants to go turbo...
b20 has good torque for a NA 4cyl lol

[SINISTR]

wait wait wait
you're talking about torque... and giving the advantage to the n/a motors?
doesn't work like that.
forced induction makes torque. n/a honda motors do not make torque.
All of the concerns mentioned regarding turbo spool and such can be addressed with a proper set up. Not every turbo has to have late spool.. there are other options.
The fact of the matter is that a turbo motor will make way more power reliably, actually produce torque, and if set up properly, can have no spool issues. When it comes to "getting up to speed", the turbos win hands down.
I think the prices you're quoting are rediculous too. Yes, things cost more out there, however, with a D16, if you blow a motor, parts are VERY cheap. If you damage the block, they're VERY cheap to replace. Shop around before coming up with prices like that.
If you're going to be tracking the car seriously, you'll get very hands on with the motor unless money is of no object to you. In this case, the only labor costs you would have would be machine work on the internals.
What happens if you blow a turbo D catasrophically(which will happen if you're seriously tracking the motor)? Need a new block, and maybe new pistons/rods. Not that expensive.
What happens if you blow a built b18cr? Need a new block, which will cost WAY more, and then all you have is a stock motor.
There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding turbo set ups on hondas. In the end, they make way more power, for less money, with better reliability than a built n/a motor. It's simply physics.

ok, hang on...

I didn't say you wouldn't get torque in a turbo. Hell, theres plenty of it once you're on boost.

The Author of this thread got a couple quotes for both 'builds' and installations right? $14K for a D16 rebuild, turbo etc and $10K for a [straight] swap B18C.

Now in my understanding of a turbo build you're looking at decompressing the motor, forged pistons perhaps etc which equals LOWER torque 'BEFORE' boost. You cannot tell me a decompressed D16A8 will have thesame torque as a Stock D16A8???
So you can get a smaller turbo to spool faster, but as you said top end power suffers - you can't have one without the other. small turbo = small lag = small hp, big turbo = big lag = big HP.

I don't believe the prices I quote are ridiculous and im not speaking about a fully race built NA motor either as you said 'built' b18c because the Author states 10K for a Stock B18C install. if he wants a race built B18C he'll be looking closer to 20K not 10 and then YES he'll have reliability issues.

Im comparing a Built D16 with a Stock B18 and their pros and cons and money going into replacing a built D16 with another replacement Stock B18C.

In conclusion im not saying DON'T get a turbo, its maybe even worth it but has to be done properly.

To the author - pick up a copy of High Octane 2 or 3 (not sure which but think its 2 since highoctane2000 has the first b18C gen1 battle) - there is a section there of a battle between a D16 turbo vs a B18C gen1 on a track. The B18C is in a Gen1 but id say a stripped gen2 wouldn't be far off a gen2. Its a good little video - maybe that will help you choose since its showing exactly what you're looking for.

[SINISTR]

And it's worth mentioning that there are plenty of LSD's available for the D series trannies

a DOHC LSD will set him back approx 2K. there are plenty of SOHC LSD's available in the US - but DOHC ZC ones are harder to get and cost alot more!
Quaiffe or Kaaz quoted me within about US$1500+ for an LSD for my D16.

with a B18CR you're likely to get an LSD Gbox - and thats included in that 10K installation estimate.

[saxman]

There's no reason to lower the compression of the motor. For a race motor, I'd advise against doing that. Infact, assuming a good tuner is available, I'd suggest bumping the compression up a bit. I know that'll get me a response like "HIGHER compression with a turbo?!?! BLASPHEMY!"

As far as turbo selection, yes, a smaller turbo will have less top end, however, you have to consider what kind of power numbers are being thrown out here. A smaller turbo isn't going to have any issues producing the power he's after. If we were talking about a 500 hp drag build, that'd be a valid point, but power wise, we're discussing something that could probably be done on a stock internalled D16... something most reasonably sized turbos can support. You're not going to run into issues with a lack of top end with a properly sized turbo.

Price wise, $14k for a turbo D is laughable. Do some research on how to do what's needed yourself, and only pay for what you can't do.

[flypig]

Just finish reading Tatsumi Mook Tuning Magazine Series Vol. 3 (Jap Version)
Two Civics competing at race track:

EG6 1600 B16B Turbo against EK9 1800 B18C NA( both fully tuned/set up as track cars)

Power: EG6 - 300hp (222kw), EK9 - 220hp (163kw) at wheels.

Both cars built by Top Fuel and have all the mods that you can think about. I/H/E, ECU/Coilovers, stripped/ roll cage/big brakes & pads/ LCD etc.

Time:Turbo EG6 - 1.04.490 NA EK9 - 1.09.682 (obviously its a short track and its already 5 seconds different between Turbo & NA).

I think if you have the same suspension set up for NA or Turbo, the end of the day the turbo charge is going to beat the NA (same engine class).

[czy_sol87]

but have u thought about what class thats gonna put u in if u race track
not the other n/a 1.6L thats for sure

[flypig]

To Sinistr

Either NA or turbo D, I will make sure all the jobs done properly.

About High Octane that you mention, D16 turbo vs B18C gen1. Which car run faster at the end? Turbo or NA?

Thnaks guys again for all your inputs/suggestions. I bought the car today off my friend. I will set up suspension/brakes first and then take to a track first before I make my final decision. NA/Turbo D16 ?????........

[flypig]

Under CAMS regulation, the way they calculate turbo charge = 1600cc x 1.7 = 2720cc.

The way they set up the class as follow:
0-1600cc Class A
1601-2000cc Class B
2001-3000cc Class C
3001 & above Class D
All the Evo/Rex & v8's would runing 3000cc +. There're not many cars runing is the Class C.

[snzz]

i got a turbo civic myself you gonna need deep pockets

[SINISTR]

To Sinistr

Either NA or turbo D, I will make sure all the jobs done properly.

About High Octane that you mention, D16 turbo vs B18C gen1. Which car run faster at the end? Turbo or NA?

Thnaks guys again for all your inputs/suggestions. I bought the car today off my friend. I will set up suspension/brakes first and then take to a track first before I make my final decision. NA/Turbo D16 ?????........

hey there - The B18C gen1 sweeped the floor with every car on the track, Evo2/3, wrx, rx7 etc - BUT the Turbo D16 was 2nd :) its all about the fact its a CRX hahaha!

see if you can get HighOctane out or buy it... good viewing!