Give me your ideas - Turbo DC4

[ky0-EK]

Hey i'm thinking about starting a turbo dc4 project.

i'm not specifically aiming for anything (ie. winning FWD autosalon dyno challenge), i just want a car that is fun to drive and can kick some arse when needed.

i don't mind on reaching the 200kw mark when boost is wound up however on low boost, traction problems would be a turn off. also, the main thing is my budget. the most i would like to spend is 5k.

some things i would like to discuss include:
which turbo?
what internal parts will be needed? (pistons? low compression plate?)
has anyone tried ebay turbo kits?

also, i want to know if keeping A/C is an option.

hopefully with all these issues sorted, i can get the project underway.

cheers in advance,
Kyle

[VTi_b0i]

Quentin AKA Q BALL will have all your answers y0 ;)

[fatboyz39]

i would talk to qbaLL, he has a dc4 turbo.

First set out a budget and work from there.

[Q_ball]

5k doesnt = 200kw
Simple.
You'll need to rethink a target or goal for your car, as what you're aiming for is jst not do-able with such a limitted budget.

[VTi_b0i]

i believe you can buy AVO kits for under 5gs that ive heard are pretty good... but ull be looking at more the 150kw atw mark... u will not reach 200kw atw on stock internals safely...

[destrukshn]

quentin doesn't even know what a turbo looks like.
hahahaha

[ProECU]

5k doesnt = 200kw
Simple.
You'll need to rethink a target or goal for your car, as what you're aiming for is jst not do-able with such a limitted budget.

I Totally disagree with that.

right choice in turbo and manifold and you're 90% there.

[Q_ball]

Exactly Evan, 90% there.
I'm sure no one wants to pay 5k for a car that is only 90% done.
And who knows what else needs to be replaced or upgraded on is DC4 for this to run safely.
You're a pro man, you shouldnt be advising ppl to turbo their car for a 200kw target with such a tight budget.

[ky0-EK]

wat is the power limit for my budget and what can be bought?

..compared to what i need for 200kw

[ky0-EK]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Integra-Civic-CRX-Turbo-T3-T4-Manifold-38MM-Wastegate_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ019 QQitemZ290057483382QQrdZ1

if i decide to buy this. i guess it would leave me quite a bit of money for my internals.

[ProECU]

Exactly Evan, 90% there.
I'm sure no one wants to pay 5k for a car that is only 90% done.
And who knows what else needs to be replaced or upgraded on is DC4 for this to run safely.
You're a pro man, you shouldnt be advising ppl to turbo their car for a 200kw target with such a tight budget.

no offence, but there is a massive misconception that you need big $ to do a reliable build. Thats crap, see below for change out of $5k

Turbo $1800
Manifold $1000
Injectors $400
FMIC $500
Misc hoses & fittings $200

ECU + Tune $1k

thats all you need for 200kw. The stock internals will handle that power.
I've dont it first hand.
In fact, my car setup cost me like $2k and it'll take any abuse you throw at it, all day every day.

and for clarification, the 90% comment was because the turbo and manifold are the big $ items in any turbo build.

But hey, if you want to spend over $5k be my guest, not my money...

[Q_ball]

Ebay shit is NOT the way to go, I think ive told u this over MSN already man.

edit: You can assume 5k is enough, so long everything to do with his motor is in good condition and nothing needs replacing or fixing.
How about labour?
Its safe to say that this guy will want someone to do the install for him.

5k is big money, but in the world of car modifications, its not that big.
I'd rather throw in a bit more for peace of mind.

[ky0-EK]

ohh...all too true there qball

wat if i set my limits to 160kw...will the stock internals take it?

[Q_ball]

An internally stock B18B can run 160kw without issues yes.

[fatboyz39]

i seen a d-series motor with a bolt on turbo kit made 130kw atw. Thats nearly a 100% power increase when it was n/a, it made aroun 70kw atw. He spent around 5k for his kit including a A/M ECU.

With a 5k budget its possible to get that power, you'll need to research the right combination, turbo and etc to make such power.

MAke sure your motor is in good condition. NO point turbo'ing a engine thats about to die.

Goodluck with it.

[ky0-EK]

thanks fatboyz39

q_ball, in street tune, how much psi do you run?
Do you have any clips of your car whether it be street driving or dyno?

[LVNIT]

Turbo $1800
Manifold $1000
Injectors $400
FMIC $500
Misc hoses & fittings $200

ECU + Tune $1k


Add in the cost of an exhaust system, the cost of a new clutch, a blow off valve whether it be plumb back or not and your looking at adding another $1500 easily on top of that. Add it could further go up if the person can not install it all..

Not to mention how many people on here are going to be able to get a replacement ecu and a tune for $1000, not many.

[fatboyz39]

you can use stock clutch for the mean time. Blow offf valve not needed only for wank factor. Exhuast system mayb needed.

[ky0-EK]

i'm quite interested in those AVO kits with the 400hp turbo. What do you they are capable of? Now, i'm trying to avoid ebay turbos as i don't want to waste money by running into unwanted problems.

ideally, i'm looking for low to mid range torque gain and not too much traction loss. And of course, retain my AC =D

[saxman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Integra-Civic-CRX-Turbo-T3-T4-Manifold-38MM-Wastegate_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ019 QQitemZ290057483382QQrdZ1

if i decide to buy this. i guess it would leave me quite a bit of money for my internals.

no it wouldn't, because all you would have is an expensive paper weight and would still need to purchase a turbo set up

[Q_ball]

thanks fatboyz39

q_ball, in street tune, how much psi do you run?
Do you have any clips of your car whether it be street driving or dyno?

I'm currently running 12psi daily,
And yes i do.


i'm quite interested in those AVO kits with the 400hp turbo. What do you they are capable of? Now, i'm trying to avoid ebay turbos as i don't want to waste money by running into unwanted problems.

ideally, i'm looking for low to mid range torque gain and not too much traction loss. And of course, retain my AC =D

Like mentioned b4, prob get u roughly 150kw, pending on the tuner.
I still wouldnt advise on turbo'n ur car on such a tite budget.
Seriously, something goes wrong, and its gonna blow ur 5k budget right out of the water.

But yeh, if u do decide to go ahead with it, GL with it all.

[LVNIT]

you can use stock clutch for the mean time. Blow offf valve not needed only for wank factor. Exhuast system mayb needed.

Bro maybe I should take the advice of your signature and not argue with stupid people.

OK use the stock clutch until the first few pulls and then how are you going to drive the car with no clutch mate? Especially with a 100% power increase..

You DO need a blow off valve of some sort, notice i said you could use a plumb black one if thats what your after. You do need something to release all that pressure so it does not flow back through the compressor.

Maybe for an exhaust? Ok mate, he wants to achieve 200kw but how is he going to do that with a stock exhaust? Lol how is he going to get the exhaust gasses from the hot side of the turbo out through the cat?:wave:

[ky0-EK]

yeah i want to get a new clutch but thats ontop of the 5k

i've set my limits lower now and no longer want 200kw as i don't really have use for this much power. I was thinking i could possibly take on RH9 at dyno challenge haha

[NEED VTEC]

you can use stock clutch for the mean time. Blow offf valve not needed only for wank factor. Exhuast system mayb needed.

typical answer from a NA boy...you need a bov as it stops compressor surge which isnt good for your turbo.. without a one air goes back into the blades of the turbo and can damage the cartridge, theres no need for those loud atmo ones (wank factor) but i suggest you buy a plumback

[fatboyz39]

Isn't thats why a wastegate is there?

[fatboyz39]

Bro maybe I should take the advice of your signature and not argue with stupid people.

OK use the stock clutch until the first few pulls and then how are you going to drive the car with no clutch mate? Especially with a 100% power increase..

You DO need a blow off valve of some sort, notice i said you could use a plumb black one if thats what your after. You do need something to release all that pressure so it does not flow back through the compressor.

Maybe for an exhaust? Ok mate, he wants to achieve 200kw but how is he going to do that with a stock exhaust? Lol how is he going to get the exhaust gasses from the hot side of the turbo out through the cat?:wave:


well i didn't recommend him to use stock clutch and exhaust. I only suggested with his budget. But yes save abit more and do it properly or ele it'll cost you more in the long run.

[ProECU]

seriously, these kinds of arguments happen here all the time.

I bought my T3 for like $300 bucks. Manifold for $250
It CAN DEFINATELY be done under 5k, I Don't care what anyone says. I've done it, I'm proof it's reliable.

Yes I use a stock exhaust system, have for about 2 years now.

Argue until the cows come home if it helps you justify your $5K+ setup that only makes 150kw.

[bennjamin]

in sight of everyones opinion (and budget opinion) - ky0-EK (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=10812) , sicne this is likely your first turbo'd car how about you reduce the "aim" (and boost since stock engine) to say 150kw @ the wheels and make the car more drivable for the "road" and last longer? Im sure for $5k and under you can achieve this with a few professionals help.

[Q_ball]

Would the fact that ur a tuner be the undermining factor here Evan?
Is that why you got your parts so damn cheap?
No where have i seen turbo componants being sold for that cheap bar ebay.

Cost vs retail im thinkin?

Stand to be corrected.

[ProECU]

No where have i seen turbo componants being sold for that cheap bar ebay.

Stand to be corrected.

Corrected.

ebay for manifold
tradingpost for t3 VL Calais turbo.

you guys need to start thinking outside the square if you want to be anything other than mediocre.

Dont listen to benjamin's advice above... there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a particular goal. Plan it, research it, do it!

[Q_ball]

So you bought 2nd hand stuff?

[saxman]

There's nothing wrong with using 2nd hand parts, as long as you know what you're looking for.

[fatboyz39]

i picked up a turbo kit for 3k complete with everythnig needed( injectors, exhaust, manifold, turbo, intercooler piping, intercooler and blah blah). Turbo kits are cheap nowadays.

[fatboyz39]

Maybe for an exhaust? Ok mate, he wants to achieve 200kw but how is he going to do that with a stock exhaust? Lol how is he going to get the exhaust gasses from the hot side of the turbo out through the cat?:wave:


Yes I use a stock exhaust system, have for about 2 years now.



there you go, proven.

[saxman]

I ran a stock, crush bent 1.75" exhaust on my turbo d16 without an issue

Not ideal for power production, but it certainly works fine.

[ProECU]

the turbo was second hand obviously, it had been rebuilt.
The manifold was brand new, it went cheap coz it had an oddball external gate flange, so needed some custom work..

http://b16a.kicks-ass.net/Private/Photography/Honda/ProECU%20Turbo%20Install/

[LVNIT]

there you go, proven.

Dont start on me mate, your the one posting that he can use the stock clutch, stock exhaust and not to get a blow off valve ;)

And I dont give a **** what one person says. I've been there, done that, i know what happens when you use a stock exhaust from the dump pipe back. I know what happens when you use the stock clutch and I was no where near 200kw

I would also like to see ProECUs claims of a stock exhaust and getting anywhere near the power he has claimed in the past.

[saxman]

I ran 195 ft lbs through a stock D16 clutch for quite some time without ever having an issue... was a relatively new clutch however. You will burn through the clutch faster than normal, but if it's in good shape, it'll work fine for a while.

[ProECU]

Dont start on me mate, your the one posting that he can use the stock clutch, stock exhaust and not to get a blow off valve ;)

And I dont give a **** what one person says. I've been there, done that, i know what happens when you use a stock exhaust from the dump pipe back. I know what happens when you use the stock clutch and I was no where near 200kw

I would also like to see ProECUs claims of a stock exhaust and getting anywhere near the power he has claimed in the past.

I just posted you a link. even has a dyno sheet for you to criticise.
Ask anyone who knows the car...stock exhaust

http://b16a.kicks-ass.net/Events/DynoDay%2021Oct06/Videos/MOV079.avi

there's a dyno vid, I have one with footage from the rear but need to find it.
You're just gonna have to take my word for the stock exhaust. Anyone that knows the car can confirm its stock.

[ProECU]

And I dont give a **** what one person says. I've been there, done that, i know what happens when you use a stock exhaust from the dump pipe back.

please tell us what happens with a stock exhaust?

[ky0-EK]

are t3 vl turbos common? i just did a search on tradingpost and i can't seem to find any? i have searched the forums and there was this t3 super 60 turbo? i've never heard of it before. what is this turbo like and where can i get my hands on one?

[kraiye]

what about a t28? see them around a bit

[.::F[L]Y::.]

man these threads turn into shit fights so easily lol its quite a fun read.

But the thread starter didnt really post much on his goals for a turbo setup nor a set budget. Anyone can go turbo but the issue of reliabilty comes down to the selection of parts and how well its all put together+tuning.

As stated you can have a fairly cheap setup running stock clutch and stock exhaust but that would only get you so far. Turbo kits nowadays esp second hand ones are piss cheap because ppl often dont like to buy second hand turbos as there is no garantee how long they would last.

There are so many things that make or break a turbo setup. Spend abit more on the right parts as a form of insurance from alot of headaches from shit parts in the future if you know what i mean.

would be better for you to give us a budget so we would be able to give you better advice.

[jdmTYPE R]

Isn't thats why a wastegate is there?

wastegate is there to release the gas b4 it hits the turbo and boost at wateva the boost controller set it at (BOV is not needed if u wanna f*** your turbo)..

[Q_ball]

There's nothing wrong with using 2nd hand parts, as long as you know what you're looking for.

Thats the difference tho,
I highly doubt that they'd be confident enough in buying something 2nd hand,
Unlike you guys, who know a lot about this, they wont be able to fix things labour free.
So if anything breaks, its gonna be expensive.

As a general consumer, you'd wanna get new parts with a proper install and tune, as this will come with some sort of guarantee imo.
Unless you know someone in the right areas obviously.

I'm still not convinced that he'll get the aspired target with a meer 5k.

[ky0-EK]

Fly, thanks to everyone's contribution, i have realised that the 200kw mark is unlikely with my budget so i have lowered it to 160kw.
With extensive thread searching =), i have decided that the t3 vl turbo or the t3 super 60 (can someone give me some info in this turbo) is right for me and plan to buy a log cast manifold from the US. Other parts i will source locally.

What i would really like to know is, what additional bits and pieces do i need. Such as clamps, screws, just any bits n pieces.

[LVNIT]

I just posted you a link. even has a dyno sheet for you to criticise.
Ask anyone who knows the car...stock exhaust

http://b16a.kicks-ass.net/Events/DynoDay%2021Oct06/Videos/MOV079.avi

there's a dyno vid, I have one with footage from the rear but need to find it.
You're just gonna have to take my word for the stock exhaust. Anyone that knows the car can confirm its stock.

What was the baseline power output before all this? :)

[ProECU]

you cant make that comparison because of new injectors, etc etc.

I never had it dyno'd NA, but most of the b16's ive seen on this same dyno put down anywhere from 85-95kw stock.

care to answer my question now? or do you still want to try discredit me?

[ProECU]

if you're ONLY aiming for 160kw, I'd suggest a gt28, it'll spool faster than its larger brothers and will be a lot more fun on the street.


Fly, thanks to everyone's contribution, i have realised that the 200kw mark is unlikely with my budget so i have lowered it to 160kw.
With extensive thread searching =), i have decided that the t3 vl turbo or the t3 super 60 (can someone give me some info in this turbo) is right for me and plan to buy a log cast manifold from the US. Other parts i will source locally.

What i would really like to know is, what additional bits and pieces do i need. Such as clamps, screws, just any bits n pieces.

[LVNIT]

you cant make that comparison because of new injectors, etc etc.

I never had it dyno'd NA, but most of the b16's ive seen on this same dyno put down anywhere from 85-95kw stock.

care to answer my question now? or do you still want to try discredit me?

I am not trying to discredit you mate, not everyone on Ozhonda is out to get you like you seem to think ;) If I were to try to discredit you im sure you would know about it.

I find it absolutely amazing that you, once again, have to come on here and still cant keep your mouth shut. And if you dont know what im talking about, im talking about your comment about the stock exhaust, cant help yourself, can you?

For what it is worth, when I had the stock exhaust on, the turbo was not as responsive as it was with the larger free flowing system. The car also made less power on the dyno.

And I dont have a dyno graph for you either.

[Muzz]

Isn't thats why a wastegate is there?

the wastegate is on the manifold, it is there to release exhaust pressure before the turbo, to regulate boost and prevent the turbo from overboosting.

the blow off valve is between the turbo and the throttle body, it is there, so that when the throttle body is snaped shut, the air that the turbo is pumping, has somwhere to escape. better then having the turbo keep pumping, and the pressure waves going back into the turbo, which is detrimental to the turbo, and also reduces the turbos spool rpm between gear changes compared to having a bov to release the pressure.

[saxman]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that using the stock exhaust instead of a larger free flowing exhaust is better. Yes, you'll get better reponse and more power with a larger turbo. Earlier posts in this thread made it sound like the motor would explode from using a stock exhaust due to pressure not being able to release, which simply isn't true.

[LVNIT]

Im not sure if that is directed at me, but i never mentioned anything about a motor exploding.

All my comments are valid and are in regards to doing a setup properly, take it how you wish.

[fatboyz39]

wastegate is there to release the gas b4 it hits the turbo and boost at wateva the boost controller set it at (BOV is not needed if u wanna f*** your turbo)..

Does stock turbo nissan cars come with BOV?

[saxman]

I don't think I've ever seen a stock turbo car without an oem recirculation valve(same purpose as a bov, but doesn't vent to atmosphere).



lvnit... wasn't directed at you in paticular, just refering to the general feeling that I've gotten from some comments... not that it would literally explode, but that it can't be done without complications

[LVNIT]

No problems at all :)

[NEED VTEC]

I don't think I've ever seen a stock turbo car without an oem recirculation valve(same purpose as a bov, but doesn't vent to atmosphere).



lvnit... wasn't directed at you in paticular, just refering to the general feeling that I've gotten from some comments... not that it would literally explode, but that it can't be done without complications

CA18 run no bov standard...

[saxman]

no recirc valve?

[ky0-EK]

is gt28 t3 flanged?

i want boost to kick in at 3000rpm

*EDIT: actually 2.5k sounds better

[ProECU]

I find it absolutely amazing that you, once again, have to come on here and still cant keep your mouth shut. And if you dont know what im talking about, im talking about your comment about the stock exhaust, cant help yourself, can you?


I honestly don't know why you'd say something like that. I must be missing something here when in fact you came out guns blasing with this comment...

Dont start on me mate, your the one posting that he can use the stock clutch, stock exhaust and not to get a blow off valve ;)

And I dont give a **** what one person says. I've been there, done that, i know what happens when you use a stock exhaust from the dump pipe back. I know what happens when you use the stock clutch and I was no where near 200kw

I would also like to see ProECUs claims of a stock exhaust and getting anywhere near the power he has claimed in the past.

For what its worth, I agree with your comments RE exhaust and spool time/responsiveness. Now lets move on...

[saxman]

is gt28 t3 flanged?

i want boost to kick in at 3000rpm

*EDIT: actually 2.5k sounds better

I believe you can purchase a gt28 with a t3 or a t25 exhaust flange. Depends on which one you buy, etc.

[jdmTYPE R]

Does stock turbo nissan cars come with BOV?

yes they do its plumb back into the airfilter thats why u cant hear it,all factory turbo cars has a bov u just cant see it .

[jdmTYPE R]

CA18 run no bov standard...
if your talking about 180sx ca18 yes they do have a bov its right next to the standard intercooler its hidden thats why u cant see it..

[NEED VTEC]

if your talking about 180sx ca18 yes they do have a bov its right next to the standard intercooler its hidden thats why u cant see it..

no they dont!!! sr20 have the bov next to the cooler....if you go find a stock CA go have a look in the guard were the cooler is and rock yourself!

[jdmTYPE R]

ok my wrong if your write no need to be a big wanker

[zco]

no they dont!!! sr20 have the bov next to the cooler....if you go find a stock CA go have a look in the guard were the cooler is and rock yourself!
he did say "CA18"

[bennjamin]

Hey i'm thinking about starting a turbo dc4 project.

i'm not specifically aiming for anything (ie. winning FWD autosalon dyno challenge), i just want a car that is fun to drive and can kick some arse when needed.

i don't mind on reaching the 200kw mark when boost is wound up however on low boost, traction problems would be a turn off. also, the main thing is my budget. the most i would like to spend is 5k.

some things i would like to discuss include:
which turbo?
what internal parts will be needed? (pistons? low compression plate?)
has anyone tried ebay turbo kits?

also, i want to know if keeping A/C is an option.

hopefully with all these issues sorted, i can get the project underway.

cheers in advance,
Kyle

Keep replies relative to THIS question. If you have insight , help out.

Otherwise STFU

[locote]

I just had a turbo kit installed in my EG5...
kit cost me roughly 2k i sourced all the parts..
Labour and tunning 2k
clutch went in 1 week and it needed more tunning 900
im only running 6psi but IT is safe and the difference between N/A and a T3/4 at 6psi is amazing!!!!

[ky0-EK]

sorry guys, i dun have a 180sx, ca18 nor a sr20. it's regarding a b18b dc4.
Please dont argue here cos it can be a bit off-topic and sometimes a bit pointless to the topic. Thank you =D

locote, can you please pm me where you sourced your parts. What specs if your t3/4 and how much kw are you making with 6psi?

[fatboyz39]

I have a turbo kit here. Pm me for more info. Its a t3/4, injectors, ECu, dump pipe, intercooler, piping, BOV, external wastegate.

[locote]

Every dyno in perth shows a different reading hehehe...
I gained 45hp at wheels on the dyno it was tuned..
my not sound like much but i know some one with a B16a with mild NA mods thats pulling same power i pulled on this dyno but he had his dynoed at another place....
Ill be taking my car to the track friday night for a few runs.
i could run more boost and make more power but i want my motor to last me a while befor ei have to fork out to rebuild it..

[yourfather]

i think you should do this
http://www.edition719.com/gallery/d/188-1/uberbite.jpg

seriously,

5K, pretty bare bones setup. if that is including ECU and stuff.

the kit im looking at is 5K for turbo, manifold, intercooler.

[z3lda]

i think you should do this
http://www.edition719.com/gallery/d/188-1/uberbite.jpg

seriously,

5K, pretty bare bones setup. if that is including ECU and stuff.

the kit im looking at is 5K for turbo, manifold, intercooler.



if ur serious , i can ge ta turbo kit for around 2-2.5k

manifold
turbo (td04 highflowd)
dumpe pipe
piping
cooloer
oil lines

[saxman]

you don't want a td04... way too small for a honda motor

[shecomb]

you don't want a td04... way too small for a honda motor

Serious!?!?

If boost is 6-8psi that turbo will spin it easy and have power from go to woe. Might be too small for the bigger displacement hondas h22 h23 etc but for up to 2lt should be good fun on the street.:D WRXs dont have trouble making power with them.

The US seem to like overkill on their turbo sizes, but i'd admit a bit of lag is handy in controlling a FWD!

[saxman]

they're already small on a wrx motor.

You can't compare displacement sizes with other motors... hondas have higher compression and higher volumetric efficiency that oem turbo motors, so comparing turbo size cross brands is absolutely irrelevant.

I will agree that there are a lot of people in the US that go overboard on turbo size... but that's the people that put huge T3/T4's on D15's.(which sadly happens a lot).

A td04, however, will fall flat on its face on a b series motor. They fall flat on their faces on D's.

Take a look at the compressor maps and such... will tell the story.

I wouldn't even consider going with something smaller than a T28 on a B, and even then you'd have to be careful which one you pick.

[ky0-EK]

is the td04 smaller than the t3 Airesearch turbo and the t3 super 60?

[saxman]

yes, by a good amount

[kraiye]

Serious!?!?

If boost is 6-8psi that turbo will spin it easy and have power from go to woe. Might be too small for the bigger displacement hondas h22 h23 etc but for up to 2lt should be good fun on the street.:D WRXs dont have trouble making power with them.

The US seem to like overkill on their turbo sizes, but i'd admit a bit of lag is handy in controlling a FWD!

maybe so for low down power and quick, early spool but on a highly efficient motor a small turbo will die in the ass at high rpm (where hondas really shine) and its efficiency will drop


what about a td04l ? are they that much smaller?

also, generally speaking, is a t28 about the equivalent of a t3 ?

[saxman]

a t28 is a hybrid turbo, using a T25 hot side with a T3 cold side, so it's a bit smaller than a T3...