b20 vtec question

[Rice_4_life]

searched = no avail.

hey all im looking into maybe converting my b16 motor to a b20 vtec set up and would like to hear from some members with this conversion done, things like costs would be great!
I've done a fair bit of research already into the conversion and seems rather straight forward.
cheers all.

[civ_sik]

theres cheap ways of doing it and expensive ways of doing it, depends on what you want to spend really.

[tRipitaka]

pm .::F[L]Y::. or tinkerbell in regards to this..

there are other members who have done it, but that's all i can remember atm..

EDIT: i'm pretty blind.. you can just pm civ_sik (refer to his signature)

[civ_sik]

pretty sure ive done it twice...

[civ_sik]

pm .::F[L]Y::. or tinkerbell in regards to this..

there are other members who have done it, but that's all i can remember atm..

EDIT: i'm pretty blind.. you can just pm civ_sik (refer to his signature)

lol all good, also master_bo_bo in brissy has done it, and danny in sydney, skremn also, all these guys have b20 vtecs, as does one600, i know theres more too but thats all i can think of atm. ill post up more info in the morning if someone hasnt done it before i wake up lol

[fatboyz39]

B16/B20 vtec hmmmmm.... depending what you wanna do. JUst replacing your b16a bottom end with b20b bottom end will net you some gains. I woould research more about this conversion before dciding to go with it.

I've driven a b16/b20 and yeh it kinda suxed ass.

[.::F[L]Y::.]

b16/b20 will benefit you if you do it properly. If your planning to put the head onto them bottom end then expect abt 120kw atw. Although the torque is there the things i could see to complete such a package would be to get a type R gearbox. Futhermore a b20 bottom end isnt really built for revving. if i had a choice between the b20 setup and a b18CR setup then id go b18CR. I only see the b20 being benficial in a light car like an eg hatch or crx.

[ZeForce]

Im building a B20VTEC myself atm....

Since you already have the head and gearbox from your current B16a, at a minimum you would require:

B20b short block ~$900
ARP rod bolts ~$70
ARP head studs ~$250
22T VTEC Water Pump ~$150
VTEC conversion kit ~$300

Then you might want to consider I/H/E + ECU + Tuning, maybe Clutch + Flywheel and of course any labour costs invloved if you dont plan on putting it all together yourself.....

[Rice_4_life]

I've done a bit of research in regards to the process of the actual conversion, and it doesn't seem as difficult as I intitially thought. I might get a few mates to help me set it up so might save on labour.
I wouldn't mind a b18cr setup in my civic but too costly :(

[ZeForce]

2l > 1.8l

[Samo]

Y::.;1038610']b16/b20 will benefit you if you do it properly. If your planning to put the head onto them bottom end then expect abt 120kw atw. Although the torque is there the things i could see to complete such a package would be to get a type R gearbox. Futhermore a b20 bottom end isnt really built for revving. if i had a choice between the b20 setup and a b18CR setup then id go b18CR. I only see the b20 being benficial in a light car like an eg hatch or crx.


who said b20's arent revvy engines !!

i driven hi-power racing's crx with b16/20 many times and i rape it to 8500rpm ... its tuned for 9000rpm ... and its just using a chipped ecu with a vafcII

the crx just ran a 12.38sec down willowbank on weds 113mph

if u built it right then i dont see why you wont be able to rev it like any other b-series motor

[civ_sik]

exactly right ^ which is why he needs to tell us how much he wants to spend, because there are different ways to do a build like this, which will net different results in the end too.

[VtirCivic]

ummm.... very interesting! ill will look into this too!

[Edgeauto]

We've done it with a stock bottom end but make sure you get a B20B8 to get the extra CR. Enzed made us up a external oil hose. Zeforce is on the money for a basic setup.

[fatboyz39]

who said b20's arent revvy engines !!

i driven hi-power racing's crx with b16/20 many times and i rape it to 8500rpm ... its tuned for 9000rpm ... and its just using a chipped ecu with a vafcII

the crx just ran a 12.38sec down willowbank on weds 113mph

if u built it right then i dont see why you wont be able to rev it like any other b-series motor


im sure that JUN b16/b20 ain't stock.....

[Hipowerracing]

hi guys

the b20 only has head work done, jun supplied me with the head work bits, piston are custom, and rod and crank are stock.. no lie.
compression is 13.xx:1, it can be done. dont believe what you read in forumns and magazines.

i sell the same engine set up with your choice of jun cams, jun springs, jun retainers and head work, our custom pistons, stock conrods, stock crank and some secret parts we use for 8k~9k... b20b
Brand new rebuilt b20bengine with b16a head.. excatly same engine that we have..

and also our b20b does not have a oil pipe from the oil sandwich, going to the head.. if you want you engine to run well do it properly, no short cuts...(engine builders you know what i mean)

if you can't rev pass 8500 rpm your money will be refunded..
it's a hi-power racing garanteed...

cheaper and better than you can built it yourself..

it's all about clearance, pison combination, bore size, bearing,compression ratio and brand of camshafts use(buy the best JUN or dont buy it at all...

we will be building a b22b that rev pass 8500rpm... coming soon....

[.::F[L]Y::.]

who said b20's arent revvy engines !!

i driven hi-power racing's crx with b16/20 many times and i rape it to 8500rpm ... its tuned for 9000rpm ... and its just using a chipped ecu with a vafcII

the crx just ran a 12.38sec down willowbank on weds 113mph

if u built it right then i dont see why you wont be able to rev it like any other b-series motor

yes i have seen that thing in action and definately looks fun to drive. My setup was less hardcore with only jdm b16a head bolted onto a b20 block with arias high comp pistons and eagle rods running a vtir gearbox. obviously this setup in a dc2 is decent but not as fast as most would have anticipated...

Comes down to how deep the thread starters pockets are....

[ZeForce]

and also our b20b does not have a oil pipe from the oil sandwich, going to the head.. if you want you engine to run well do it properly, no short cuts...(engine builders you know what i mean)

:confused: I have seen some of the best engine builders using an external oil line from an adapter sandwiched between the oil filter....

[koldfire]

i always have this idea of getting B18CR block n crank with 85mm bored... that makes approx. 2l... *drool*

[Samo]

thanks fo clarifying the stock crank and rods for me ivan

to be honest the motor didnt cost as much as i thought
esp one than could copp rapings of 9000rpm all day everyday

[marcus]

b20 if setup well can hit over 290 hp at the engine....but that will cost alot....

[ZeForce]

A properly built B20VTEC can produce 300hp atw

[marcus]

A properly built B20VTEC can produce 300hp atw

i agree with that.....and thats NA power only....

[Mrrevolution]

would you recommend a b20 gearbox aswell for the conversion ?

[ZeForce]

would you recommend a b20 gearbox aswell for the conversion ?

No, ideally you want to use VTiR gearbox or even better Type R, since they have gear ratios better suited to your now high revving engine.

[Edgeauto]

would you recommend a b20 gearbox aswell for the conversion ?

B20 gearbox is 4wd

[tinkerbell]

and also our b20b does not have a oil pipe from the oil sandwich, going to the head.. if you want you engine to run well do it properly, no short cuts...(engine builders you know what i mean)

i am not an engine builder, so maybe i dont know what you mean, but if you arent using an oil line to teh back of the head, you probably dont have a B20B...

or you have re-drilled the block, which for most purposes is unnecessarty and increases cost (NB this is the n00b forum)

[Rice_4_life]

~.~ think I might get a professional to do the build, lost and very confused of this oil line you have to run from the back of the b20 block to the head.

[ZeForce]

~.~ think I might get a professional to do the build, lost and very confused of this oil line you have to run from the back of the b20 block to the head.

Dont be, just get yourself a golden eagle VTEC conversion kit and its almost a bolt on job....

[tinkerbell]

it is the piston to valve clearance you should be worried about, the oil line is a cinch...

[tinkerbell]

so is piston to valve clearance, thats what CLAY is for.

so you think claying valve clearances is a cinch for n00bs?

hmmm, nice optimism!!!!

[Muzz]

i dont mean to hijack this thread, but theres alot of wise people in here. i just have a single question thats not worth starting a new thread over.

Can a built LS/vtec (sleaved, lightweight pistons & rods, knife edged crank, fully ballanced + headwork cams etc.), built correctly, be as reliable as a straight b18c built up with those same mods? How about in a circuit racing application?

[tinkerbell]

define 'reliable'?

[Muzz]

More chance of somthing major going wrong/less kms covered before needing to rebuild.
ie. a oem engine can be considered more reliable/longer liveable than the same engine turbod.

i think my question should of been, can a LS/vtec last as long as a b18c in a race application, both with the above mods, both pushing out the same power, both built correctly? i cant see any reasons why they couldnt be.

[tinkerbell]

maybe even more "reliable" than an OEM B18C if using lighter compenents???

IMO - if both B18B and B18C are built to the same specs, with same head specs, they will be as reliable as each other, with the b18c having a slight top end advantage, over the slightly more torquey b18b...

[Muzz]

thanks tinkerbell:thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

dont forget we are in the noob forum evan ;)

[tinkerbell]

rofl!

[hengis]

can anyone comment on the difference in driveability between a b18c (vtir) and a simple b20 (~120kw)

[ZeForce]

No difference.... If anything the B20 would be better to drive at lower rpm due to its extra torque

[tinkerbell]

damn straight, the "drivability" is much improved, 5th gear at 60km/h is easy to maintain up most hills...

but the only thing that is reduced is "revability" to some extent...

i.e. B20VTEC probably cant rev as high as a B18C without affecting "reliability"

[bungsai]

what did you have yours fuel cutting at tinkers?

was it a significant difference in acceleration?

[tinkerbell]

what did you have yours fuel cutting at tinkers?

my current one is set to 8250rpm, but i am not 100% happy with it,

my old B20VTEC was set to 8500rpm, but i only ever touched this at the track (both drag and circuit) and this is the engine i got my 13.7 with...

was it a significant difference in acceleration?

the torque creates faster accelleration sooner, but this drops off at higer RPM, so again (as is always the case in engien dynamics) it is a compromise...

ie, a B18C will accelerate less at lower RPM and more at higher RPM, and vica versa...

[Rice_4_life]

quick question :wave: I'm starting to save for my project and just wanted to check with b20 VTEC owners here :D. What bottome block did you guys choose? I'm planning to run it N/A no plans to turbo so naturally a high compression will be needed and during my research I came across the B20B block and the B20Z block, question is which of the 2 is better? from the figures the B20Z has a higher compression to that of the b20b block.
cheers all might be seeing another b20 vtec in the near furure :D

[Edgeauto]

In Aus we have B20b3 and B20b8. the B20b8 has higher compression so this is the block to use if you are going to keep it stock.

[Rice_4_life]

nah i have no plans to keep it stock.

[Muzz]

In Aus we have B20b3 and B20b8. the B20b8 has higher compression so this is the block to use if you are going to keep it stock.

when you say stock, your mean internally stock yeah?

[Edgeauto]

yeh stock internals, the main difference between the 2 is the pistons

[Rice_4_life]

I read you can't keep stock internals when doing this conversion? Crappy info? not that i plan to anyway just wanting to throw everythin in this thread for future noobs :P

[ZeForce]

AUDM B20b8 = USDM B20z

Both have PHK pistons which gives higher compression if you plan on staying with stock internals....

[Rice_4_life]

ahhh k, I'm guessing B20 bottom ends won't be difficult to source since it's not the most popular item in the conversion scene, so would i be correct in assuming going to the local wreckers to source the bottom end or a specialist half cut place like (SSS automotives for example).

[ZeForce]

I got mine shipped to Adelaide from Hondwreck, which is in Melbourne

[tinkerbell]

ahhh k, I'm guessing B20 bottom ends won't be difficult to source since it's not the most popular item in the conversion scene, so would i be correct in assuming going to the local wreckers to source the bottom end or a specialist half cut place like (SSS automotives for example).

yeah, aim for the B20B8 though, not the B20B3

but in EITHER case, you will have to modify (enlarge) the intake valve reliefs on the tops of the pistons to suit the larger (33mm) VTEC intake valves - as the B20B only has 31mm diameter valves...

this might be where the "you can't keep stock internals when doing this conversion" info came from...

this is especially the case when using larger than stock B16A camshafts...

[Rice_4_life]

ahhh thanks that made things much clearer.

[tinkerbell]

I read you can't keep stock internals when doing this conversion? not that i plan to anyway

IMO - if you are going forged internals:

get a cheaper B18A block and have it re-sleeved and bored to 85mm...

it will cost more, but you will be able to run high compression (12:1) pistons without worries...

concerns arise when running higher than stock compression on a stock B20B block due to the different sleeve design from factory (compared to all other B series)...

[Rice_4_life]

hmmm if that's the case then I think i might need to alter my plans. guess this kinda ends the b20 thread huh?

[jdmTYPE R]

if your engine is built with the right parts there no need for u to rev that high coz u have the torque to pull.....i raced my engine onthe track and the response on it is amazin, moded b18cr in a lighter car still cant compare to the b20setup in a itr...i only rev to 8300 on the track and it still pulls away from them...

[Muzz]

I got mine shipped to Adelaide from Hondwreck, which is in Melbourne

hey Zeforce, whats the shipping like, sending an engine that sort of distance?

[ZeForce]

hey Zeforce, whats the shipping like, sending an engine that sort of distance?

Around the $100-150 mark

[Edgeauto]

yeah, aim for the B20B8 though, not the B20B3
but in EITHER case, you will have to modify (enlarge) the intake valve reliefs on the tops of the pistons to suit the larger (33mm) VTEC intake valves - as the B20B only has 31mm diameter valves...

this might be where the "you can't keep stock internals when doing this conversion" info came from...

this is especially the case when using larger than stock B16A camshafts

We have not touched the bottom end at all not even the pistons and we are running CTR cams with no problems.

[destrukshn]

what about the sleeves? sorry for the noobness, but i've heard they're quite weak, what makes em weak? and what causes it to crack?

[tinkerbell]

We have not touched the bottom end at all not even the pistons and we are running CTR cams with no problems.

what have you got your adjustable cam gears set at?

have you shaved the head at all?

[tinkerbell]

what about the sleeves? sorry for the noobness, but i've heard they're quite weak, what makes em weak? and what causes it to crack?

http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/jan96a.html

well, compare to the 81mm bore, the 84mm bore required Honda to use a different sleeve design (known as "siamese" casting...)

see above article for details...

see how much thinner the actual sleeves are:

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/jan96a-5.jpeg

sleeve 'cracking' is mostly due to detonation (due to inappropriate tuning), but the risk of detonation is vastly increased when running non-standard bottom end with high compression ratios above about 11:1...

[destrukshn]

ah.. so most of the time it's due to the tuning?
and increasing the compression rations above 11:1 is not recommended?
unless it's sleaved?

[tinkerbell]

an an example of the *high compression* "PHK" piston cut reliefs using a Dremel:

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/B20VTECcutreliefs01.jpg

[destrukshn]

pic doesn't work.
=/

[tinkerbell]

ah.. so most of the time it's due to the tuning?
and increasing the compression rations above 11:1 is not recommended?
unless it's sleaved?

i dont recommend it for longevity...

but others have done got away with it...

comments regarding "reliabilty" often come down to tuners ability to balance pinging and performance...

as you can clearly see the cylinder liners are much thinner on B20B vs any other 81mm bore B series engine...

i have NEVER had a problem with my B20's - but i have only ever run stock pistons with enlarged valve reliefs...

and found that after "claying" the engine that piston to valve contact is an issue at over +5 degrees on adjustable cam gears with VTEC engaged...

(even though max performance was found at +4 intake and +3 exhaust in my particular situation)

so it is *possible* to runh without enlarging the OEM valve reliefs... but slightly risky IMO if chasing max performance...

[tinkerbell]

pic doesn't work.
=/

lol!

was uploading to server, shld be OK now... ;)

[tinkerbell]

example of *low compression piston* known as "P3F" cut reliefs:

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/P3Fcutreliefs.jpg

[destrukshn]

alot of learening i have to do with b20setups
=/

[tinkerbell]

i have seen *fully built* bored and sleeved and forged high-compression built internals blocks put out LESS power than "stock" B20VTEC's

so yes,

it is important to realise/recognise the issues and overcome them...

if EdgeAuto has got away with not touching the bottom end - maybe listen to what he has to say too...

i only have my experience to go with,

which is not the be-all-and-end-all of buildign B20VTEC's

it is just what i personally knows works :)

[destrukshn]

which i understand, but your information is still very valuable
lol.

[tinkerbell]

BTW - a EG powered by a B20VTEC with ITR intake, cams and headers + programmable ecu should = 13.5sec 1/4 mile with good driver :D

[Jarkz]

I found this site that might be helpfull to you. It shows how to build a B20Vtec
and also how to clay a motor for clearances and other good info:thumbsup:

www.c-speedracing.com/howto.php

[tinkerbell]

yes, particulary: http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/lsvtec/lsvtec.php

exactly same as B20VTEC but with B18A/B block...

[Rice_4_life]

sweet thanks for those sites guys

[Edgeauto]

what have you got your adjustable cam gears set at?

have you shaved the head at all?

We have the gears set @ In0 and Ex-2. Everything is stock cause we threw it together the week before the Dyno day and it is still pulling strong (133fwkw).Its hard to get enthused to pull an engine apart that's working fine. The head has been only been decked for a nice flat surface but not shaved. It's good to see a thread thats full of good info that hasn't turned to shit and it's in the noob section. lol.

[Hipowerracing]

just to let you guys know there is another way to built the engine without using a pipe from the oil pressure switch to the back of the head..

as stated in "http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/b20vtec/b20vtec3.php"

my engine does not have the pipe leading to the back of the head.. do not like the idea as once the pipe breaks, snap, or get cut.. the oil from the engine will gush out within 5 secs.. leaving your engine block dry..

our engines do not have the pipe heading to the back of the head (exception shane haha)..

and also our engine uses 13:1 compression.. and it is still runnng good.. (keeping my fingers cross..)

[tinkerbell]

so, do you do it like the c-speed site you posted or not?

[Hipowerracing]

no we dont do it like that site, as i said.i have seen alot of b20s blow up because of that pipe line.

there are couple of ways to built a b20, it seems that all american b20s are built this way. only a couple of good engine builders do it differently.

however the link to c-speed has a lot of helpful tips on building the b20

[tinkerbell]

so you are not going to tell us how you do it? or what?

or are you going to keep it a Hipowerracing super special secret? :wave:


and for accuracy, it is not called a "pipe" - it is called a "hose"...*

IMO - if installed correctly, a -6AN braided oil hose from the back of the B20B block, at the oil pressure sensor hole using 1/8BSPT fitting, to the back of the head, using a 3/8BSPT fitting, will not cause and engine to fail under normal operation...



* a pipe is ridged, a hose is flexible

[ZeForce]

no we dont do it like that site, as i said.i have seen alot of b20s blow up because of that pipe line.

there are couple of ways to built a b20, it seems that all american b20s are built this way. only a couple of good engine builders do it differently.

however the link to c-speed has a lot of helpful tips on building the b20

http://www.theoldone.com/components/Oil%20Adapter/generic_oil_plumbing_kit.htm

[Rice_banger]

Sorry to bring up an old thread not worth making one

ive currently got no car, i got budget of about 8K , im thinking of buying a B20B from wreckers and B16/18 head for how ever cheap and ya follow these guides and build then buy integra or EG breeze

Now my question is , if i buy a DC2 GSI , can i stick with the poor mans B series box , car will be daily driven and hill runs and maybe track days

[MikeyG]

vtir gearbox yes.. but every one woudl say get type r gearbox

[Rice_banger]

so the stock GSI box , has pethtic ratios for my new "high revving" motor

[tinkerbell]

yeah, wrong gearbox :(

even the VTiR one is too long to *really* enjoy...

[Rice_banger]

Curses and kicks the wall , why lord oh lordy

was going to ask how a stock B20B and tune n ECU + EG breeze would go , but just realized it would make more sense to buy a VTI hatch with the 96kw and leave it

[turtle187]

if ur going for b20 conversion in gsi, eg or ek might as well go for LSD gearbox.
save up abit more money and everything will work out cheaper

[Rice_banger]

ya true , so il need , B20 block , B16/18 head, a vtec conversion kit to get oil to head + gaskets , ARP studs, ECU, gearbox ,water and oil pump and oil pick up etc

been reading GSI_PSI's thread its been inspiration puts a tear to my eye , its so good to see such a excellent budget build being done on this site