sway bars and coilovers combo

[zerospel]

Hey guys

I just installed ek9 front and rear sway bars into the civic, very very happy with the improvement

But I feel that there is room for improvement, I wonder if I shouldve just gone ahead with coilovers in the first place and not bother with the sway bars?

My question is : would the car handle as good with coilovers only and no sway bars OR coilovers AND sway bars would be even better?

I feel that if I get coilovers and set it to hard setting for the track , the sway bars is just there for nothing?

Hope that makes sense hehe...

[Rasputin]

After reading through some of Whiteline's articles, it seems they recommend running upgraded swaybars, and then using springs as soft as possible to iron out any lingering roll issues.
As in, use big bars to eliminate roll, not stiff springs.

If you have nothing but crazy stiff springs, you're having to sacrifice ride quality to eliminate body roll, having a harsher, bumpier ride. If you use bigger swaybars, you can still use slightly stiffer springs to supplement them, but you won't have to sacrifice nearly as much ride quality to get the handling you desire.

[SiReal]

heres what i did. I put in coilovers (well, koni/H&R spring combo). Was great. around corners, car handled like a dream. But when cornering hard, and on softer setting, the car would still roll (mind u i drive a heavy ass accord).

Next i added a Whiteline 20mm RSB. BANG! Difference was noticable. There is very very little roll, however now I have increased understeering and it really does make you notice the difference tyres will make.

I also heard that when u have swaybars only on stock soft sussy, the sussy is working under and is stressed further, by absorbing the roll. Not the springs and shocks, everything else.

Whereas, if you get the coilovers first (which is the main absorber of roll), then get the swaybars put in, then there will be much less stress on the stock components.

[Rasputin]

So basically, buying coilovers wont make your Swaybars 'a waste', to answer your original question. Having both helps to create a well rounded suspension setup.

So having both will be better.

You wouldn't go wrong putting in some bracing either. Like tie bars and strut bars, again to reduce the stress on the rest of the car and help your suspension work together.

[SiReal]

That is correct. ^^ As above. Any strengthening will be good.

Just don't be running mega thick sways for too long on stock sussy imo. A good mate who is also a good mechanic and does installs professionally says it could snap your endlinks, accelerated wear and tear....

but yeah :thumbsup: HI FIVE!

[quangsta]

^^^ very nice.....

coilovers - keep ur car stable on the road
swaybars - keep ur car stable around a corner
tie, struts, braces - keep ur car together :p and help the above

but having said that....making everything stiffer will mean more stress, added stress will eventually lead to premature failure of parts. (which cant be fixed via nasal delivery)

o wellz i would still do the mods :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:

[zerospel]

Thanks a lot everyone

All makes sense

Shopping for coilovers now :)

[SiReal]

having a set of nice tyres will also mean a lot. i never knew this was so adamant until i put my rear swaybar in.

[Muzz]

Have a play around, its imposible for us to tell you yes it will be better, or no it wont. What i can tell you is that it will have a large effect on handling still. they provide the same roll resistance nomatter what springs/shocks you run.

Install the coilovers, then have a play aroung with every thing and work out what feels best for you. Ie, disconect a front endlink, to cancel the swaybars effect, go for a drive and see how it feels. Come back, do the front one up & disconect the rear, then try with both disconnected.

Just be careful testing the car after youve made changes like these, as it effects your understeer/oversteer balance, which have caused many scary moments for the unaware.

[zerospel]

Install the coilovers, then have a play aroung with every thing and work out what feels best for you. Ie, disconect a front endlink, to cancel the swaybars effect, go for a drive and see how it feels. Come back, do the front one up & disconect the rear, then try with both disconnected.


Wouldnt that be pretty much the same as setting the damper softness/hardness as sway bars and hardening the damper both reduce roll by reducing springs to compress but in a different way?

[Muzz]

Wouldnt that be pretty much the same as setting the damper softness/hardness as sway bars and hardening the damper both reduce roll by reducing springs to compress but in a different way?

No. The amount of bodyroll is determined by the spring rate, damping controls the springs rate of movement, not how far it compresses or extends under different loads.

If you would like me to explain further just let me know:thumbsup:

If i were in you position i would set up the suspension as follows:

1. install the coilovers, set the damper stiffness about midway between soft and hard.

2. play aroud with you sway bars to see what combination works best for you, and gives you good understeer/oversteer balance.

3. Now fine tune the dampers to what you want.

I recon choosing what sway bars you want to use should be done before tuning the damper stiffness. The swaybars will have the greatest impact on the understeer oversteer balance, after you install your chosen coilovers.
The damper stiffness should then just be used to fine tune and tweak your setup. Better than over damping or under damping your coilovers trying to balance the car that way, there really only ment for fine tuning adjustments. And thats a good reason why you should take advantage of your swaybars, better to ballance your cars oversteer/understeer with front and rear roll stiffness than by damper stiffness.

[zerospel]

No. The amount of bodyroll is determined by the spring rate, damping controls the springs rate of movement, not how far it compresses or extends under different loads.

If you would like me to explain further just let me know


Please if you dont mind :)

[zerospel]

damping controls the springs rate of movement

So do u mean like: on harder setting, it will take more time for the spring to compress when loaded compared to when its on softer setting under the same load ie when cornering? so that the spring compress is not as immediate?

btw are you running a shop called muzz accessories?

[euGeR]

There are two different schools of thought.

1. stiffer spring/shock combo

2. softer spring + swaybar

The main difference is a stiffer spring compresses and releases energy faster. Whiteline also state that the softer spring helps keep the tyre on the road for uneven surfaces.

Sway's only "control" roll. Don't forget that sways also add stress to the chassis under load.

-------------------------
Now, which one depends on what you want to do.

Street/race applications -> depends on how much comfort you want to sacrifice.

On track, you'll see smoother roads, ther cars are lower, you'll see stiffer rates

On road (eg. rally) - undulating roads - you'll see softer rates but see how high the cars are? You need to allow for the movement

In my opinion, if you want to lower your car, the lower you go, the stiffer the spring and shorter stroke damper should be selected. To soft and you'll be hitting your bump stops (bottom out) which damage your shocks. Sure you can run heavy springs then turn down the bump on adjustable shocks, but you end up wearing your dampers. Adjustability is more for accomodating wear, or if you uprate your spring, then you don't have to re-valve your damper.

For an EG, anything heavier than 10kg would be very stiff for such a light car.

In your situation, if you have bought spring/shocks, but you want more oversteer, you can use a thicker rear sway to adjust and get more rotation. Again, you can use it to dial out roll, however depending on the set up, you might need to dial in camber (get more negative).

When you get to this point of tuning, the only way to know is to use a perometer to check how your tyres heat up - to see if you have the right set up. This is where adjustability has an advantage.

[zerospel]

Not that I disagree and ignoring advices but Im still confused

I still dont get this whole damper thing, Ive always thought by hardening the damper the effect would feel like having a stiffer spring rate due to more load required to compress a spring on hard damper because the damper is harder??

How I see it is: sway bars reduces roll by reducing spring compression by holding the lcas which limits lca movement

hard damper reduces roll by re-inforcing the spring with harder damper so it takes more load in order to compress the spring

[Muzz]

Please if you dont mind :)

Not at all mate:)

What you said is correct:thumbsup:

So do u mean like: on harder setting, it will take more time for the spring to compress when loaded compared to when its on softer setting under the same load ie when cornering? so that the spring compress is not as immediate?


With a very soft damper, put 100kgs on a spring, it will sag almost instantly.
Do the same with a stiff damper, it will sag the same amount, but it will do so much slower.

Spring rate controls Amount of movement
Damping stiffness controls rate of movement

When you corner, load on the inside wheels is transfered to the outside wheels. This change in weight is what causes bodyroll.

The shocks influence load transfer, they do not effect the amount of load transfer, or the amount of roll, they do however effect the rate at which load is transfered due to spring compression, and the time it takes a given load transfer to effect a change in wheel camber.

They also effect wheel camber and tire slip angle by preventing oscillation of the sprung or unsprung masses and resulting camber change. But that somthing its better not to think about!

Basically, relativly stiff shocks give rapid responce and good transient characteristics. what you dont want in a racing car is sloppy responce to control movement, and hunting around as load is transfered.
All racing cars are overdamped by usual comfort standards!

Not sure if this helps at all, hope it does:thumbsup:
The shop you mentioned isnt mine;) wish it was:p

[Muzz]

Not that I disagree and ignoring advices but Im still confused

I still dont get this whole damper thing, Ive always thought by hardening the damper the effect would feel like having a stiffer spring rate due to more load required to compress a spring on hard damper because the damper is harder??


It will feel stiffer, going over bumps and such. In saying that, it wont compress any less for a given weight.

Because the tyre will move upwards slower, for the same bump, traveling at the same speed, the spring will compress less as it dosnt have much time when hitting the bump. It wont absorb the bump as good because it will compress slower.

For a road car id go for a lower high speed damping (for bumps etc), with a stiff low speed damping for bodyroll and lift/droop under braking and acceleration. Unfortunatly you dont really get this option without going to racing shocks!

Dampers are tricky things!

[zerospel]

Thanks muzz and everyone for taking the time to explain :thumbsup:

Muzz what sort of sway bar (front and back) and damper set up do you have on your ek when ur on the track or when ur on the road?

[Muzz]

At the moment ive got a 24mm front and a 22mm rear swaybar, however, i need more oversteer so am now looking at putting together a 32mm hollow swaybar setup from http://1speedway.com/Online_Catalog.htm

Ill be getting 2 bars, one with .095" wall thickness the other with .120" wall thickness, this will allow me to achieve results between a 22mm - 30mm solid rear bar (by varing the effective swaybar arm length). Im making the effective arm length adjustable from the drivers seat, to allow changes while out on the track, save coming in to try different settings. (cheap and easy to put together)

Im a firm believer of the reversed roll stiffness american fwd racers are using, as opposed to how the japanese set there cars up with higher roll stiffness in the front. If you would like some good technical reading on this subject, just ask! i can link you to some very good technical discussions.

With our fwd hondas, cornering power is dictated by how much cornering power is availiable at the front wheels, the goal is to maximise that, and ballance the grip at the rear to get the right balance. The japanese way of higher front roll stiffness dosnt seem to take account of that.

Im getting some new suspension first though, see how that works out first, to help me make the correct choice with swaybars.
Koni's (8041-1152 front, 8041-1213 rear) short body racing shocks with, ground controls and ebaich springs with custom rates ftw!
Still working out what spring rates ill be using.

[zerospel]

looking at putting together a 32mm hollow swaybar setup

Is this for ur ek? will you still be using the same rear sub frame reinforcement when using these 32mm bars? whats included in this kit and how much would it be?


If you would like some good technical reading on this subject, just ask! i can link you to some very good technical discussions

Id love to have a read on these :)

What is reversed roll stiffness? is it like having rear sway bar equal size to the front or bigger?

[Dylanamus]

Hey Muzz... good to see you're finalising decisions on your setup.

zerospel: In the case of a FF vehicle, the front is traditionally set up with stiffer spring rates and thicker swaybars than the rear. Reversed roll stiffness simply means reversing the traditional setup in order to promote a more oversteer-natured handling characteristic. Muzz briefly explained why he wants to do this, but clearly it is a subject as technical as you are prepared/capable to comprehend.

I'm in the process (within the constraints of financial obsticles) customising the stabilizer balance to being closer to even (in terms of thicknesses), but on my car at stock the front is 18mm and the rear is 14mm and is already more likely to oversteer than understeer. I have 12/8kg (F/R) ratings in the springs on my coilovers and am getting 24mm front and 22mm rear solid bars. With the balance of my CR-X in mind, I am aiming to achieve a similar end result as Muzz.

One question I have for Muzz, of which the answer may help you, zerospel, is what custom mounting and subframe reenforcement techniques are you using? I am going to get Ralph at TruTrack (Melbourne) to manage custom mounting and tuning for me. But the endlinks on the swaybars on my car connect directly to the control arms, so subframe reenforcement is not as much of an issue, however the mid-point mounts on the subframe will require some attention.

To answer your original question, I personally agree that springs/shocks (coilovers) are just a much as part of the handling package as swaybars and if you want to improve the overall handling of your car, you can't turn a blind eye to any aspect of its functions.

[zerospel]

Cheers mate

hmm i wonder if i should chuck my 22mm front sway back in and see how i like it, but man the front one is such a pain :(

[Muzz]

looking at putting together a 32mm hollow swaybar setup
Is this for ur ek? will you still be using the same rear sub frame reinforcement when using these 32mm bars? whats included in this kit and how much would it be?

Its $570 US dollars for the subframe reinforcement, and also the 32mm hollow Swaybar kit. Probably $670-$700US with shipping included. Website is http://www.asrparts.com/ Ill defiantly make use of my ASR subframe brace when putting together my own Swaybar kit.


If you would like some good technical reading on this subject, just ask! i can link you to some very good technical discussions
Id love to have a read on these :)

What is reversed roll stiffness? is it like having rear sway bar equal size to the front or bigger?
Reversed roll stiffness (not a technical term, I just didn’t know what too call it) is where the rear roll stiffness is stiffer than the front. For example most American people who race Hondas use rates like 800lb/ft front, 1100lb/ft rear, the rear roll stiffness is higher.

Have a read of http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=285747 to get you started. I had 2 other great links, but there saved on my mums computer which is at my brothers getting fixed. So you’ll have to wait till it comes back. However the above link is the best for you to start with, it contains all you need to know, and the other two are extremely technical and long-winded and quite daunting to comprehend. The person who wrote the above link (RR98ITR) is very knowledgeable and I believe is currently writing a book on fwd racing.

EDIT:

it contains all you need to know
Ill correct myself here, and explain that it really just only slightly scratches the surface of the whole debate, but to go too deep at this stage gets very confusing!



One question I have for Muzz, of which the answer may help you, zerospel, is what custom mounting and subframe reenforcement techniques are you using? I am going to get Ralph at TruTrack (Melbourne) to manage custom mounting and tuning for me. But the endlinks on the swaybars on my car connect directly to the control arms, so subframe reenforcement is not as much of an issue, however the mid-point mounts on the subframe will require some attention.


Hey mate
I will be mounting the sway bar, to the subframe, simular to in the pic.
The new Swaybar bushings will be bolted to the high tensile steel plate (blue), which is bolted to my asr brace. I will be adding an extra bolt per plate (above and slightly left of the lca bolt in the pic, big empty blue area that you can see) to really bolt the plate to the asr brace nice and tight!
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/DSC00145.jpg
Im using the golden coloured bushings found down the bottom of the page. Bronze liners FTW! No more squeaky rubber bushings! http://1speedway.com/Swaybar_Arms.htm

The endlinks will mount to there original hole in the control arms.
Ill be drilling extra holes in the Swaybar arms that I choose, on both sides of the control arm, for a huge range in adjustability.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/zzzz-1.jpg

[funkdr]

Wow some helpful stuff here i am quite a noob when it comes to sussy but i have been reading and thinking of going for coil overs in my ed sedan cause i dont know how i want it to ride etc give me some flexibility


now the the question have u changed ur bushings to nolothane (spelling?) bushes over the rubber speaking with some people they have recommended i change the bushes at the same time i go with coil overs

[Muzz]

Wow some helpful stuff here i am quite a noob when it comes to sussy but i have been reading and thinking of going for coil overs in my ed sedan cause i dont know how i want it to ride etc give me some flexibility


now the the question have u changed ur bushings to nolothane (spelling?) bushes over the rubber speaking with some people they have recommended i change the bushes at the same time i go with coil overs

It would be a good idea if youve got the money to do so, especially since the car is older and is likly to have worn bushings (unless theyve previously been replaced). However in saying that, it would be fine for you to run coilovers without swaping over your bushings, it would not be the optimum though, ESPECIALLY if you were to go with really stiff coilovers and sticky tyres, which will put greater forces into the bushings, causing them to distort greater amounts.

IMO, it would definatly be a worthwile modification if you can afford it, the difference in handling will be quite improved, with the improvement increasing the stiffer the coilovers you decide to use.


now the the question have u changed ur bushings to nolothane (spelling?)
I am using my origional bushings atm, but will be doing all my bushings after ive done my springs/shocks. Have a bit of a read around reguarding the different type of materials your bushings are availiable in, nothalane is one one of the many different materials bushings can be made from, ive not done the same yet, but will do so when it comes time for me to upgrade.

i hear some types of bushings are very prone so squeeking noises, with would annoy the crap outta me.

[Dylanamus]

With regards to bushings, it's easy to "uerethane the f*#k" out of your ride (ie my car) (quote from a respected suspension mechanic/tuner). So my advice would be to take your car to a reputable specialist and let them decide for you where urethane will help and how much of it to outfit your car with...

[Muzz]

Is this for ur ek? will you still be using the same rear sub frame reinforcement when using these 32mm bars? whats included in this kit and how much would it be?


I see egsi has them for sale at $350, awsome price!
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61201 :thumbsup: