European car service intervals

[Hullabaloo]

I hope this isn't a repost. Search mainly gave me car or oil specific threads.

European cars generally have a longer service interval recommendation. eg Mini Cooper (non S) first service @ 16k, then every 25k or 12 months.
BMW's also recommended 25k for an E46 M3 when i test drove it (note this interval is same for 318i if i recall correctly). Renaults, Peugeots, vw's also have very long intervals (20k). Whenever they've told me that they've said it is because they use synthetic oil and the build quality of their engines allows for this.

I've noticed that Honda dealers use mineral oil and recommend 5k service intervals. I like to think that Honda engines (whether they be K20A or F20C) are made just as well as a Mini Cooper or Peugeot 307's engines. From my time on this forum, it seems that most people would be shocked if anyone serviced their s2000 at 25k intervals even if they were using fully synthetic oil.

Reading through threads like this:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9275
give me the impression that even if you do travel high k's in short time or use synthetic oil you shouldn't go longer than 10k for a service. still a fair amount off from 25k.

What are people's thoughts on this? I guess most dedicated BMW owners would do an intermediate service (say 15k every 6 months) but this is still far off from Honda's intermediate of 5k. Are Honda just being overly cautious? or are BMW and Mini stretching the service interval too far?

Before anyone says, yes I've heard that frequent oil changes are better anyway and will extend the longevity of the engine.

[aaronng]

Go to bimmerforums.com and check out the 2001 5 series that followed the usual 12 month service schedule with BMW synthetic oil and marvel at the gunk and varnish that accumulated in the head. That's why Honda needs a 6 month interval. If that gunk accumulated in the head in a VTEC engine, the VTEC mechanism would jam and stop working.

Anyway, a Honda service costs $200-250, while a BMW one is about twice that. So in the long run, servicing costs are similar.

Here's one from a 99' 750i. Owner took good pics when he was tearing down the engine.
http://bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/314657

http://bimmerboard.com/members/bucks99750il/Buck's%20Engine%20Teardown%20009%20CIRCLED.JPG

[EG5[KRT]]

peugeots are every 20k or 12 months

intermediate is every 10k or 6 months..

i thought honda was every 15k.. or 6 months.. ? ?

[SHIFTY]

y0 i mech @ peugoet and i think it 6 months...

[EuroDude]

Honda's are every 10,000km but its good to change the oil every 5000km between services to keep the performance of the engine optimal and for general longevity.

ps. That Bmw engine looks gross, even my 250,000km Civic's engine looked near-new compared to that.

[aaronng]

Honda's are every 10,000km but its good to change the oil every 5000km between services to keep the performance of the engine optimal and for general longevity.

ps. That Bmw engine looks gross, even my 250,000km Civic's engine looked near-new compared to that.

And this "BMW sludge" is very common. Just do a search on "sludge" in any BMW forum and you'll see many experiences. In most cases, there is no problem with the engine even with that amount of sludge (but then again, maybe that's why the VANOS system is not known for its reliability).

[panda[cRx]]

;1066983'] i thought honda was every 15k.. or 6 months.. ? ?

all honda servicing is every 6 months or 10,000kms (whichever occurs first)
with an optional oil change at 5,000km for 'extreme' conditions

it doesnt matter what the service schedule says for any car i personally wouldn't leave oil changes any more than 10k apart. regular oil changes are one of the best things you could do for your engines overall health.

i've seen 'new' hondas with poor service history with worse sludge than the beemer in aarong's pic.

service manuals are not service bibles to live by, they are generally the BARE MINIMUM to keep you new car warranty valid.

another example of service book recommendations is transmission services.
i'm sure most dealers would recommend an auto trans service every 20k yet all you see in your book at the 20,000km service is an oil and filer change , you won't even see a trans service in the book for the 40,000km full major.
off the top of my head i think many vehicles dont have it in their book til the 100,000km mark :rolleyes:


here is an interesting and very recent article on the topic too. honda also gets a mention in the there as in the crv books it only had the first valve clearance adjustment at the 100,000km mark


Trouble with oil, deep in the heart of Lexus
John Connolly
February 10, 2007

THERE was a time when General Motors was one of the world's largest companies. That was back when only the USSR employed more people; when GM sold more than one of every two cars in the US; when it recorded the first billion-dollar profit (that would be worth $70 billion today). And when GM president Charles Wilson was named secretary of defence, he said: "For years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa."
Poor management of the US nation, and of its car companies, plus a Datsun rally victory in Australia in 1958, saw the greatest manufacturing companies in the world start on a downward spiral.
Today the combined market capitalisation of the big three - GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler - is less than 40 per cent of Toyota's market cap and a little more than Honda's. The market caps of each of GM and Ford today are around the same as Brambles, Macquarie Bank and Woodside. But the auto industry lives a cycle. Car companies go bad, some die and some come back.
Already this year Toyota is recalling 533,000 pick-ups and SUVs. In the last two years it has recalled nearly 3 million vehicles in the US, leading one union boss to say that Toyota has recalled more cars than it has built.
This week Toyota in the US settled a class-action lawsuit, also covering Lexus, which potentially involves 7.5 million current and previous owners whose cars were possibly damaged by engine oil sludge, or what the judge called "oil gel". Brought by Lexus owners Sarah and Jeff Meckstroth, and heard in a Louisiana county court, the suit and its outcome have big implications for Australia.
In 1999 Jeff traded in his Merc for a new $45,000 Lexus RX 300 sport wagon; after 42,000 miles (70,000km) the engine failed because of sludge. Although the Lexus was still under warranty, and receipts showed that Jeff had made all the required oil changes, Lexus refused to cover the $10,000 repair, blaming poor maintenance.
Jeff was underwhelmed by this, particularly when a Better Business Bureau arbitrator ruled that the car had been properly maintained and Lexus should repair it under warranty.
So Jeff headed off to see Gary Gambel, a personal injury lawyer, at New Orleans firm Murphy, Rogers, Sloss and Gambel.
Rather than carry on with a potentially expensive case, Toyota agreed to settle, setting an important precedent not only for Toyota owners but also for other manufacturers, as we shall see.
Toyota says the sludge didn't result from any engine design problem and the proposed settlement does not mean that "Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel".
Sludge is a result of modern engines running a lot hotter to meet emission standards, and finer clearances starving engines of oil. As Mobil's Australian engine oil guru Paul Foster says, "Oil has become the rubbish bin for emission by-products that can't go out the exhaust."
Foster says sludge is like Vegemite. "The loads on engine oil keep getting higher." He says if you are using good quality oil you should be able to keep to the manufacturer's oil change recommendation, but heavy duty work - like lots of towing and short runs to the shops - means you should change your oil more often.
Brisbane's Dean Hogan-Brown has been running a campaign on behalf of Australian Saab owners with sludge problems. Saab has had sludge (or Vegemite) problems in the US, as have DaimlerChrysler and Volkswagen.


MEANWHILE, Kurt Maring, who lives a pretty happy life up in the Whitsundays, has been organising his own campaign against Honda. Kurt was hit with a $2000 bill to have burnt valves fixed after only 105,000km of "soft driving with my Honda CRV".
"I found Honda had a serious valve problem in the early phase of the introduction of the CRV," he says. "Under pressure from competition to reduce service intervals, the initial maintenance schedule asked for a valve clearance inspection after 100,000 kilometres. Unfortunately, soon it was noticed that valves got toasted much quicker.
"To fix the problem, Honda simply printed new manuals and shortened the inspection interval to 40,000km. I was really surprised to see this schedule in my manual, as I did not notice in the invoices for services that the valve clearance of my CRV was ever checked."
Honda Australia declined two requests to comment on Kurt's problems.
TWO petrol-heads without problems are Kurt's north Queensland mate Mark Harmshaw, from Port Douglas, and Hawks tragic Peter Petty, who are now watching the Cobra Ferrari wars courtesy of Pitstop.net.au. And finally, go to www.insuresimply.com.au (http://www.insuresimply.com.au). These guys insure under-25 drivers provided they meet a few criteria (like only riding pushbikes with their grandmothers). I don't know if the policy is any good, but seeing they are the first people game enough to send me a press release in the four years I've been writing this column, they deserve a mention.



edit: just saw this


y0 i mech @ peugoet and i think it 6 months...
you are a mechanic at a dealership and you don't know the servicing schedule of the cars you service? :confused:

[EuroDude]

Do u think its possible the mechanic/dealer who services these 'sludged' cars purposely avoided changing the oil and only topped it up to save some money?
Its hard to believe that amount of sludge can occur during scheduled servicing intervals..

[SHIFTY]

it was my first day!!! :P lol

Well one of the cars today i put sticker sayin 6 months... so umm yer!

[panda[cRx]]

Do u think its possible the mechanic/dealer who services these 'sludged' cars purposely avoided changing the oil and only topped it up to save some money?
Its hard to believe that amount of sludge can occur during scheduled servicing intervals..

anything is possible, but i strongly doubt that is the case.

if it is a dealer they have nothing to gain and everything to use by doing dodgies like that.

[EG5[KRT]]

peugeots are definately every 20k or 12 months.. for the warranty to b ok..

but its up 2 the customer if they wanna do the 10 or 6 month intermediate service..

these are in most extreme cases of ppl being lazy.. but yeah usually good customers bring their car in every 10k or 6 months..

i only said i think about hondas is 15k or 6 months but i dont work on them so i woudlnt know.. i usually do mine about every 6 months and i do trans fluid at same time.

[Hullabaloo]

It does seem strange that by using the recommended normal scheduled servicing intervals would cause sludge buildup. If that was the case surely a company like BMW would lower the 25k interval.

[EuroDude]

That gets me thinking, maybe when my dealer does the suss "Oil Treatment" during the scheduled servicing, its for a reason. Possibly an anti-sludge agent ;)

[aaronng]

It does seem strange that by using the recommended normal scheduled servicing intervals would cause sludge buildup. If that was the case surely a company like BMW would lower the 25k interval.

In the luxury marques, long service intervals sell cars. It's because a long interval gives the false sense of security that the car is well built and requires low maintanence.

[aaronng]

That gets me thinking, maybe when my dealer does the suss "Oil Treatment" during the scheduled servicing, its for a reason. Possibly an anti-sludge agent ;)

Been 2 years, I push my car to hell and back, and without that oil treatment method of squeezing money from you, I don't have sludge nor do I burn oil.