ITB's on a V6

[spetz]

How do ITB's work on V6's?

And what are the greatest issues with ITB's?
Lack of low end power? Roughness? Tuning issues?

Engine would be 2.5 litres

[aaronng]

Tuning and loudness. ITBs on a V6 work the same as ITBs on a cabled V8. Look at how Ferrari implements theirs in their older cable-throttled V8.

[TODA AU]

How do ITB's work on V6's?

And what are the greatest issues with ITB's?
Lack of low end power? Roughness? Tuning issues?

Engine would be 2.5 litres

Noise can be an issue.
Depending on type of tuning used, fuel economy can be a real problem.
(Ie: For road driven car, stayaway from basic throttle map)

Idle quality is improved over plenum system with large camshafts.
Power increase is more mid range & top end.
That is very strong gains in the mid range & moderate top end gains.
Low end power can suffer, though this is tuning dependant.
Clean, ambient air feed can also be an issue if system is not well though out.

[EfiOz]

How do ITB's work on V6's?

And what are the greatest issues with ITB's?
Lack of low end power? Roughness? Tuning issues?

Engine would be 2.5 litres

1.Great!

2. They are definitely noisy.

3. Nope

4. Nope

5. Nope.

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/PrGal/KFD11m.jpg

[todas**t]

man thats gonna sound like a F1 car...

[spetz]

Well it already sounds like a hypo motorbike
So I assume the sound should be unbelievable

It will be a daily/weekend car so has to be smooth, no starting issues, etc
Loudness isn't really a problem

Who in the sydney area (preferably close to yennora) could fabricate something like this?
What ECU would I need?

Would I be able to get away with stock cams with an ITB setup?

[jdmTYPE R]

dyno dave is a fabricator he should beable to make it up as he makes headers and manifolds he tuned barefoot car with quads and runs really good time...

[TODA AU]

What sort of engine?

[JasonGilholme]

i think its an FTO engine in his lancer.

[spetz]

Yeah it's the FTO motor but will be building it to 2.5 litres (or attempting to)

Already have the 2.5 block, the MIVEC heads and in about 8 weeks should have the internals done.
Having issues with bearings though :(

Where is Dyno Dave situated?

[.::F[L]Y::.]

ITB's arnt that loud. Just sounded like a super intake if you know that i mean.

Idles like a standard car if the tuner knows that he/she is doing. Highly recommended mod for any NA car

[spetz]

Any negatives to it?
Being 2.5L I assume low end power should never be an issue
Even with only 2 litres now it still pulls from idle quite easily in higher gears and all
Regardless low end power isn't too big of a concern
But anything else bad about them?

[todas**t]

low end should be really good and responsive just your fuel mite be a issue lucky the petrol price gone down a bit thats if u give it to the right tuner...

[TODA AU]

Any negatives to it?
Being 2.5L I assume low end power should never be an issue
Even with only 2 litres now it still pulls from idle quite easily in higher gears and all
Regardless low end power isn't too big of a concern
But anything else bad about them?
The if's...
If you don't use quality parts, the thing will be awful to drive.
If the throttles are cheap & nastly, you'll have high idle problems.
If the linkages are cheap & nasty, you'll get sticking throttle problems.
If the lengths are wrong, it won't perform as well as it could.
If the manifold is cheaply fabricated, it'll probably look awful.

& the but's
But the bonnet used to close... :p
Be sure it's all going to fit & there is available space.

[STOCK]

Wooohooo V6 ITB Lancer.. thats gonna be interesting!!! post up some pics when its done!!

[EfiOz]

Smal, high revving V6's make an awesome sound!!

[spetz]

Well I am hoping it'll be completed this year
Along with cams, internals, labour, gearbox mods, ECU it's a lot of money :(

Toda AU, can you make a ITB setup?
Space might be somewhat of an issue
But being a V6 I assume I could just sit everything on the rear bank? Like the intake manifold is now: (sorry dodgy camera phone pics)
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/spetz83/DSC00020.jpg
And one of the actual car:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/spetz83/DSC00040.jpg

[fishman]

full sick. hurry up and get it running so you can see how it performs against some of the honda's around!

[spetz]

hmmm
I am sure for what the engine will be it wont perform that greatly against Honda's as it weighs quite a bit
1120kg with no fuel and no one inside

But as it is, it's quicker than DC5R's, B16 EG's, etc

Hopefull completion date though is by next summer

[todas**t]

i think u should register onto a v6 forum and ask them about the ITB..more chance there.

[d15z1SUX]

make a cool ram air induction thingy like top secret did with their vq35 hehe.

[TODA AU]

Toda AU, can you make a ITB setup?
Space might be somewhat of an issue
But being a V6 I assume I could just sit everything on the rear bank? Like the intake manifold is now: (sorry dodgy camera phone pics)


We can,
The issues I can see that will be a problem straight away with yours in clearance.
Not only will you have issues fitting all throttles to the rear & getting adequete airflow to them.
The major problem I can see is runner spacing.
Placing the throttles to the rear, the sapcing between them will be minimal at best.
It may be that a machined billet peice with the 6 throttles on the same shaft would be the most cost effective means of achieving multi throttles.
This is not ideal as there can be issues with machining accuracy & the ability to get the idle down to an acceptable level.
Another alternative may be to siamese to intake runners where to runners share the same throttle.
This would give greater spacing between the throttles to allow for lingages etc.
FWIW: Normally a V6 would use a vertical set up as pictured earlier (Jenvey) in a mid engine set up where vertical clearence is not such an issue.
Eg: Honda NSX.
Or a cross ram type system in front rear drive (North~south) engine config where bonnet clearence can be a problem.

http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/jp/product/tune/special.jpg
Such as pictured above.
TODA manufacture these for a few GT300 teams using the VQ35 engine.

In any case,
Though it can be done, with a transverse mounted V6 with little vertical clearence. To make something that works well, it is going to be seriously expensive.
It's up to you to determine if the gains are actually value for money.

[spetz]

How much is seriously expensive?
What sort of turn around time would you give? I guess I'd need to give you the car with the engine in it wouldn't I?

Would there be a great benefit going 3 throttle bodies (1 per 2 cylinders) over say a twin setup where I have a plenum with a TB on either side?

Can you please give me some pricing, turn around time, and benefits of an intake system?
Where are you located? (how close to yennora are you as well in Sydney?) and also maybe add ECU install and tune charge? I'd say Haltech most likely (or what would you recommend?)

[TR53XX]

As toda said,

you have very small room to work with.

When i was designing my ITB's, i had 33.8 cm to work with. I needed 27 for a tuned length setup.

Go for a tuned setup, otherwise it won't run as well..
Make sure everything is laminar
If you can, taper down as you get to the head (Ie, velocity stack is widest point and it tapers down into the TB, then the TB tapers down to the runner, then the runner tapers down to the head, this contributes to RAM effect, it's hard to get right so make sure you get a pro)

velocity stacks - http://www.velocity-of-sound.com
plenum material - http://www.rossmachineracing.com
get flanges watercut or laser cut.

My itb's are off a suzuki gsx-r 1000, they are 54mm TB's and taper down to 45mm. To give you an idea of my taper, VS is 70mm, port opening 35mm

A good designed intake can give you an intake boost pressure of 10psi. But that is EXTREMELY difficult to obtain, although it can be done.

Do your homework and it should be good :). If you got anymore questions, ask heh...

oh yeah - itb's arn't designed for down low, so don't expect anything there...it's all mid/high.. and throttle response is insane.

[gnx1987]

You need an airfilter/s to be street legal don't you?

[spetz]

Well with 2.5 litres and a light car I think low end will still be alright?
As it is now with only 2 litres, and my intake runners are stuck on long (ie, top end power) it still pulls comfortably from just over idle even on up hills and high gears
And the engine has something wrong with it (possibly spun bearing) as it's only made 112kw at the front wheels
As opposed to a friends lancer with same engine conversion did 132kw atw (but had extractors and cat which mine doesn't)

[TODA AU]

I could look at it for you, But I can't promise anything.
I'd need to measure under the hood to see if it's worth trying.
Btw, we're in Wetherill Park, approx 15~20mins from Yenora.

[spetz]

How much would it roughly cost?
There is an off the shelf ITB setup I found already but depends on what you want to charge.

I'll prob get you to tune it when it's done though
What ECU do you recommend?
That'll be the last thing I buy though, closer to the end of the year

[aaronng]

As it is now with only 2 litres, and my intake runners are stuck on long (ie, top end power) it still pulls comfortably from just over idle even on up hills and high gears
Short is meant for top end power.....

[TODA AU]

How much would it roughly cost?
There is an off the shelf ITB setup I found already but depends on what you want to charge.

I'll prob get you to tune it when it's done though
What ECU do you recommend?
That'll be the last thing I buy though, closer to the end of the year

If there is an off the shelf kit from a reputable manufactrer, use it.
It'd be cheaper than making one.

[spetz]

Aarong, sorry I did mean short (they are in the "open" state) which is only supposed to happen after 4500rpm but mine are just stuck on open all the time


Toda, I'd still be interested in what sort of price you would be charging?
The brand is relatively reputable but I am unsure how much tuning and testing was done.
Rather I have the feeling it's more theoretical and was manufactured under some sort of formula

[TODA AU]

Toda, I'd still be interested in what sort of price you would be charging?
The brand is relatively reputable but I am unsure how much tuning and testing was done.
Rather I have the feeling it's more theoretical and was manufactured under some sort of formula

I can't give you a firm quote without seeing & measuring the available space.
Looking at your engine bay pic, it's not going to be exactly a simple task.
Are you able to bring the car over?

[fatboyz39]

Hit dynodave with a PM.. he might be able to help you out... his pretty experience with ITB

[spetz]

Toda,
No I can't bring it :(
It isn't registered and after sitting for a few months it doesn't start anymore

Would it help if I took more detailed pics of the engine bay?

And roughly, what would the turn around time be for a job like that?
PS. If you give a rough estimate of price, even with say +/-$1000 it would be good

[TODA AU]

Sorry, it's too hard to give a firm quote without seeing it.

[spetz]

oh ok :(
Well, to let you know the off the shelf item is $2500
I assume maybe + GST + shipping + filter elements
How does that sound?

And, what should I ask them when I talk to the seller? ie, what must it have etc?
Thanks

[bennjamin]

spetz.

Dont make any more suggestions or questions.
Just GET to TODA or another guy and ask them to their face.

As stated by TODA , its impossible to talk any numbers or problems on the internet without seeing a job.
Also , this gives the wrong impression to others too ( IE a quote can be held against a persons name etc)

I feel there is no more point to this thread , as you have simply asked for a online quote.