how much kw does a ITR pulls out at da wheels

[cuongn]

any one know how much kw would a type r pull out at da wheels if it has 170kw at da engine, what would be the at the wheel kws,?

[bennjamin]

if any FWD car has 170kw at the engine , the drivetrain absorbs say 25-30% of the power.
So that would be about 120-125KW ATW.

A stock DC2 ITR puts 141kw to the engine and about 100kw @ the wheels give or take.
*moved*

[panda[cRx]]

^ what he said, case closed

[Q_ball]

^ I dont like the man, but he's got a point ;)

[EKVTIR-T]

if any FWD car has 170kw at the engine , the drivetrain absorbs say 25-30% of the power.
So that would be about 120-125KW ATW.

A stock DC2 ITR puts 141kw to the engine and about 100kw @ the wheels give or take.
*moved*
Although your formula is sound I personally wouldn't think a dc2r with 120-125kw atw is making 170 at the fly.Just an opinion and welcome proof to prove me wrong...

[Drew]

if any FWD car has 170kw at the engine , the drivetrain absorbs say 25-30% of the power.
So that would be about 120-125KW ATW.

A stock DC2 ITR puts 141kw to the engine and about 100kw @ the wheels give or take.
*moved*

Are you sure? Because my EF8 pulled 97kW at the wheels and 117kW at the engine and my Accord pulls 117kW and thats 147kW at the engine so a loss of only 30kW

So loosing 50kW with a Type R is a bit sus...

Can't see how a EF8 would only loose 20kW and my CH9 loosing 30kW that a Type R would loose 50kW... Just doesn't make sense

[Mr_will]

for fwd, the drivetrain loss is more like 15%, give or take.

[Hullabaloo]

if only a 15% drivetrain loss for a FWD then a DC2R would be ~120kw atw.

I've heard/read of stock DC5R's pulling ~110. At a guess i would have thought that RWD have more drivetrain loss than a FWD. 110 atw for a DC5R equates to ~25% loss. Maybe RWD's have about ~30% loss. (of course all cars will be slightly different_

[BiLL|z0r]

20-25% loss is the norm I'm lead to believe. My Euro did 111kw at the wheels with 140 at the fly (auto). RWD is usually around 25-30% and AWD is higher again just over 30%.

[shebangs]

Stock ITR is anywhere from 95-103kw on a dyno.

[bennjamin]

yes as I said and others - it "seems" to be "about" 25-30% loss through the transmission. Accuracy is dependent to the dyno reading it - only in comparison to other cars on the same dyno / same day.

[kyobibi]

Stock ITR is anywhere from 95-103kw on a dyno.

agreed!
my ITR, when it was stock, ran 102kw on Toda's dyno.

[Kiz_EG6]

As you have all said, a reading can vary depending on the dyno, my civic pulled around 100atw on a dyno dynamics dyno, pretty much stock EG6, this is about as much as my Dc2R would, only the typeR is easily as fast in a straight line and pulling an extra 200kg of curb weight!

If an all wheel drive loses more through a driveline that a FWD or RWD, then maybe the LSD has something to do with it on a typeR?!

[Benson]

thats a happy dyno :p

[Kiz_EG6]

thats a happy dyno :p

Yeah, well pretty optimum conditions, nice mid 20's day, new cai set up, plus the car was just running magically!!

[Benson]

LSD has nothing to do with power output...

Remember a type R is an 1.8l and ppl dont realise that it isnt heavy as ppl think it is...

[j3z3z]

Are you sure? Because my EF8 pulled 97kW at the wheels and 117kW at the engine and my Accord pulls 117kW and thats 147kW at the engine so a loss of only 30kW

So loosing 50kW with a Type R is a bit sus...

Can't see how a EF8 would only loose 20kW and my CH9 loosing 30kW that a Type R would loose 50kW... Just doesn't make sense

im in the same boat ef8 118kw motor and i have made on different dynos 98-102kw atw.
from what i have read in many magazines 17-23% power loss in fwd drive train. and 20-30% rwd

[j3z3z]

As you have all said, a reading can vary depending on the dyno, my civic pulled around 100atw on a dyno dynamics dyno, pretty much stock EG6, this is about as much as my Dc2R would, only the typeR is easily as fast in a straight line and pulling an extra 200kg of curb weight!

If an all wheel drive loses more through a driveline that a FWD or RWD, then maybe the LSD has something to do with it on a typeR?!

my ef8 has lsd. and i make 98-102 on dyno with stock b16a

[Weq]

my ef8 has lsd. and i make 98-102 on dyno with stock b16a
no it doesnt. 90-94kw.

Drivetrain loss has laready been mentioned. If you are making more power then this forumula, u have a more powerful engine (for some reason) or the dyno is inaccurate (well more inaccurate). You choose, but point b is probbaly the culprit.

[j3z3z]

i have seen results from stockers in the states with similar power. the only part that is not stock is the exhaust.

and yes it does make 98-102

[JohnnyVtec]

Benn is correct...

Please keep in mind "NO" two dyno's equate the exact same number!
Elements like those mentioned before my post as well as, Sea Level
, 3rd or 4th gear pull, Tyre Size comp ETC.

Moral of the story: Just because someone has a different # on their Dyno sheet, doesn't mean that they're not being honest.

Please keep an open mind and appreciate that others are sharing information with you. It would be a sad thing for us to forget that anything is possible.


Cheers, :thumbsup:

[Vinnie]

^ wat he said.

gotta keep in mind tho that if it has any mods (intake/exhaust etc) then it is not STOCK. any peformance enhancing mods will obviously give better readings than a completely stock engine.

[string]

Drivetrain losses aren't a fixed percentage. Inertial losses from spinning up the rotating assembly is constant, you just give them kinetic energy. It doesn't take more energy to accelerate them faster, you just have to put it in quicker. I don't know about bearings but I can't imagine they'd be much anyway.

You see more (proportional) power losses with higher powers (i.e., making it look like a percentage) due to the fact that you will be spinning the rollers up quicker, meaning less run time, more "power" lost to the drivetrain (but the same energy). Dynos numbers mean nothing ftw.

Answer me this... I create some sort of variable motor energy sink. I slap a type-r on it and spin it up to peak power and adjust my energy sink such that I am at a steady state of peak power. If I only am getting ~111kW "at the wheels" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) then where is the other 30kW escaping to? The motor is rated at 141kW, it is generating 141kW. Now, some of the power will be pushing oil through the motor, some will be pushing water, some will be driving the alternator, some will be lost in bearing frictions. Now a whole pile of "some"'s there don't add up to 30kW. That's a hell of a lot of energy to be disapearing. My drive-shafts don't get red hot and melt every time I accelerate :)

[didz]

if any FWD car has 170kw at the engine , the drivetrain absorbs say 25-30% of the power.
So that would be about 120-125KW ATW.

A stock DC2 ITR puts 141kw to the engine and about 100kw @ the wheels give or take.
*moved*

guys, there is no formular to find out the ratio of KW at flywheel to KW at wheels. every engine is different.
The KW loss is due to engine efficiency. And the ITR is different to civics, accords, preludes etc... the only way is to dyno a few of them, work our the differences in percentages then use the average as a rough guide. Just because it says 147kw at flywheel on paper doesnt mean it has that much. (r32,33 and 34 GTRS all say 206kw on paper.)

[DreadAngel]

GT-Rs of course say 206kW... Gentlemen's agreement but they got away with way more than that kekeke...

Isn't there a way for the dyno to be put on a mode like Shootout Mode or something to help keep things "relatively" equal?

[dsp26]

If an all wheel drive loses more through a driveline that a FWD or RWD, then maybe the LSD has something to do with it on a typeR?!

LSD doesn't change drivetrain loss unless you were mid turn on the dyno when it locks up the diff

AWD has far more drivetrain loss because it has 3 diffs (front/rear/between front & rear) as opposed to fwd/rwd having only 1

[dsp26]

GT-Rs of course say 206kW... Gentlemen's agreement but they got away with way more than that kekeke...

Isn't there a way for the dyno to be put on a mode like Shootout Mode or something to help keep things "relatively" equal?

all power runs should be in shootout mode anyway... but it is still different between dynos due to calibration... comparison is best done between cars when the 2 comparing cars dyno at the same place the same day.

the only time a dyno shouldn't be in shootout mode is when your tuning real-time

[dsp26]

guys, there is no formular to find out the ratio of KW at flywheel to KW at wheels. every engine is different.
The KW loss is due to engine efficiency. And the ITR is different to civics, accords, preludes etc... the only way is to dyno a few of them, work our the differences in percentages then use the average as a rough guide. Just because it says 147kw at flywheel on paper doesnt mean it has that much. (r32,33 and 34 GTRS all say 206kw on paper.)

there is a GENERAL formula
fwd = 16% loss
rwd = 20-25% loss
awd = 35%

and yes the yanks are the one with correct higher dyno powers at 16% drivetrain loss.... you'll find that our dynos here in aus are configured with rwd in mind.

also dyno-ing in 4th gear generally as it is the closest to 1:1 ratio.... keep in mind that every gearbox model has a different 4th gear ratio also affecting drivetrain loss techinically...

[DreadAngel]

all power runs should be in shootout mode anyway... but it is still different between dynos due to calibration... comparison is best done between cars when the 2 comparing cars dyno at the same place the same day.

the only time a dyno shouldn't be in shootout mode is when your tuning real-time

Ah icic :D Thanks kekeke

[EuroAccord13]

also dyno-ing in 4th gear generally as it is the closest to 1:1 ratio....

That is generally for six speeders..
5 speed manuals are generally done in third where the majority of them are nearest to 1 ratio... Best is to check out the gear ratios in the specs sheet of your car.. It could even be in second gear LOL!


Also our Dynos cannot be compared to the Americans as they follow SAE's standard and we don't...

[dsp26]

^^so ur saying Aussie dynos are wrong or American?

i was under the belief before that the yank dynos are the ones that are ambitious.... but i did a test with my car and ordered every part that the yanks used for their sr20... what do you know my power matched up when converted to 16% drive loss... when compared part for part to a few dyno sheets

[dsp26]

also while this thread is active... my nest question is semi relevant.

is a B18c that much better over a B16a2?
been thinking of getting a gen3 crx and the nissan fellows tell me to get a B18... i post in the civic/crx section and honda people are saying the same thing.....

[didz]

there is a GENERAL formula
fwd = 16% loss
rwd = 20-25% loss
awd = 35%




I doubt those %'s are correct... standard dc5r with 123.48fwkw roughly is doubtful...

[bennjamin]

I doubt those %'s are correct... standard dc5r with 123.48fwkw roughly is doubtful...

Yes exactly. As my example was - a 141kw engine puts "Äbout" 100-110kw to the wheels , which is about 30%. a RWD loses more kw due to longer distance to cover before "hitting" the wheels too :)

[dsp26]

i get what you guys are saying so let me ask you....

if you've never known chicken or what it tastes like... how do you know what ur eating is "chicken"? how do you know what you know as 123fwkw isn't actually 110fwkw or 130fwkw?

[bennjamin]

i get what you guys are saying so let me ask you....

if you've never known chicken or what it tastes like... how do you know what ur eating is "chicken"? how do you know what you know as 123fwkw isn't actually 110fwkw or 130fwkw?

Dynos are COMPARISONS to cars on the same day/tune. Nothing more nothing less. I care little about chicken or the fact you are hesitant there is a "theorized" formula. Because , atleast for a FWD that is quite innaccurate. If your general forumlae is true , then a stock ITR "in general" will put around 118kw to the wheels. This thread is about "an average" and not one example.
Remember that your car is not the same as every other FWD out there - as is the examples that i have seen putting "30%"less kw's to the wheels.

[whoosh!]

depending on wheel sizes too......and tyre pressure...

[kraiye]

Also our Dynos cannot be compared to the Americans as they follow SAE's standard and we don't...

I also overheard a guy at the last dyno day in bris say something about american dynos aren't continually loading or something like that so their figures are higher.

[EuroAccord13]

^^so ur saying Aussie dynos are wrong or American?

i was under the belief before that the yank dynos are the ones that are ambitious.... but i did a test with my car and ordered every part that the yanks used for their sr20... what do you know my power matched up when converted to 16% drive loss... when compared part for part to a few dyno sheets

There is no concrete evidence to say which dynos are accurate.. We can merely only use what the dyno outputs as a base for tuning. For example, in any case, a hub dyno will read higher than a roller dyno simply because of less resistance and tuning will be based on what the hub dyno outputs..

Your car might measure up to lose only 16% drivetrain loss, I'm not disputing that, another same car with the same modifications as yours will most likely have different drivetrain loss simply because no two cars are the same. There are also alot of external variables that affects the output...

What is going on here is a standard issue that FWD,RWD,AWD cars drivetrain loss is between xx% and xx%....

Best bet is to use the same dyno on the same day with the cars in questions to just reduce the number of variables that will affect the output...

[string]

^^so ur saying Aussie dynos are wrong or American?

i was under the belief before that the yank dynos are the ones that are ambitious.... but i did a test with my car and ordered every part that the yanks used for their sr20... what do you know my power matched up when converted to 16% drive loss... when compared part for part to a few dyno sheets
Coincidences are always refreshing. Driveline loss is not linear with power, end of story. Anyway, before any argument can actually be made, someone really needs to standardise a definition of "at the wheels" power, because i'm still a little foggy as to what it means.

[Kiz_EG6]

Let's all forget about stupid dyno comps anyway, let's be honest if that's all ur trying to prove then you should just get a heavily boosted 6cyl skyline or supra or some s#!+.

The real test will never be on a treadmill, how bout worrying more about lap passes or quarter mile times!