EK1 civic system help !

[dj_s2k]

Hey all,

just wanted advice for my system that i installed recently. First of all wat i got is an Alpine 9855r headunit with the KCA-420i ipod controller, JL VR600-CSi in the front and in the rear i got JL TR690-TXi all running off the JL a4300 amp. Got it installed just a few days ago and i am extremely happy with the sound quality. Kills the stock speakers that were in there and damn i love the glidetouch and the motorized face on the HU :D

However, two issues that are sorta getting to me is:
1. theres not enough bass
2. the rattling in my boot/rear of my car

Resolving the issue with rattling and noises in the boot i've found the solution to (searching the forums i've found the keywords "Flashtac" and "Silicon Sealant" lol though i'm really considering going with the dynamat) and i know it is going to be a pain in the arse locating all the problem areas but nonetheless my car will be "rattle free" in no time *knock wood knock wood*.

The bass issue i'm really unsure about. Before i decided on what i was going to get i reminded myself that boot space is a real issue for me (seeing as my car is a hatch and all) and did not really want to get subs. I "convinced" myself that i was more after sound quality than the bass. However, when i got the system i realised i got excellent sound quality but not enough bass. I mucked around with the settings on my HU and amp and found that i got more bass but still insufficient to satisfy my needs.

I'm now considering forgoing my bootspace for some bass however, searching through the forums i found that people were saying that if i have 6x9's and get a sub it will cancel (due to similar frequencies and what not). However, what i noticed on my amp is that on that particular channel which the 6x9's are hooked up to, i can actually put a HP filter pass where i guess it only lets through higher frequencies and eliminates all the low frequencies (bass).

So now, my query is this: if i do get subs, will my 6x9's (with the HP filter comb) and the sub cancel each other out ?

Also, just wanted advice on whether i should go for the JL 10w3v2 or the 10w6v2. I'm gonna be also buying the JL a1400 mono block amp to run it. Friends and the place where i'm buying it from reminded me that i have a small car and that i don't need such a big driver, but SQ is really important to me and i think that the JL w6v2's will produce cleaner bass than the w3v2's.

Sorry for the long post guys but i'm in desperate need of advice. Would be great if you guys can throw in your opinions on what i should do and point me in the long direction.

Cheers

[dj_s2k]

lol sorry all i meant "right direction" not "long direction"...

[tron07]

What is the power rating of your JL amp?

If I am going to run a full SQ setup, at the cheapest cost/way to run it....assuming the amp is 4x75 (4300).... I will feed the front comps with the 75W, the rear 6x9 with the HU. Probably will fade it to reduce the sound coming from the rear to get front staging. Or better still, remove the 6X9 all together and sell it off. No need to get W3 or W6, but instead get 12W1 and bridge the amp to power the 12W1. Dont even need a monoblock.

As you mention you got a small car, and rattles all over, with a bigger sub and power, it might be a overkill to get a more powerful sub like w3 or w6.

However if you got the money to spare, then by all means go for W6... or even better W7 :p

Click on the link on my signature, you can post your question at that forum also... probably will get similar reply like mine there, chuck the rear speakers. :D

[tRipitaka]

i'm assuming you've played around with your settings on the headunit ?

if you want more bass.. the only way is to get a sub..

[tune2look]

However, two issues that are sorta getting to me is:
1. theres not enough bass
2. the rattling in my boot/rear of my car
Cheers

Definately work the boot.
But think carefully about using flashtec. (2~5 the work!!!!)
I currently have flashtec on but its just too thin for what I wanted.
And the proper ones are made for purpose so it will have advantage over flashtec.
Oviously, you have to choose the right ones out of few names coz some dont have very good reviews....
Other then that, there are only two things flashtec is good for,
1. money for value amount... but remember, its the total area they are talking about.

2. Since flashtec are sold in rather longish strip type, you can have a nice advantage if installed correctly.
When installing, do not try to stick the pieces one next to other, instead overlap just about 1~2cm and you will theoratically gain double the amount of obsorbing vibration on metal sheet.

So when they are installed in this fashion, flashtec is real value for money.
But you should really put at least a layer of open or closed cell form.
Flashtec or other branded deadening matts are made to obsorb vibration, not sound.
It will have some improvement as is, but to really get paid for all the effort laying that nasty matts, you should lay some form sheets.

And for squicks, it coz your cars aged enough for all the chasis flexing, worn bushes, springs.... never ends if you want perfection.
I would try to put rear tower bar to tighten the chasis, hopefully it will eleminate most of the squicks.

Lastly, 6x9 will not cancel out sub at all, its just how your ears translate to your brain.
They have different frequencies and will not cancel out.
Infact, if by any type or sized speaker can produce same level of frequency, it is a advantage not disadvantage.
two 200w sub totals 400w but it doesn't mean it produces what 400w sub does. Its just much much richer sound!
For 6x9, you should really try both with or without since which ever you like better is the right one for you. Personal taste~

[dj_s2k]

What is the power rating of your JL amp?


the amp is running at 70w rms x 4 at 4ohm with my HU.


As you mention you got a small car, and rattles all over, with a bigger sub and power, it might be a overkill to get a more powerful sub like w3 or w6.


my concern is the clarity of the bass coming out of the w1v2. i understand what you say and i agree its just that i know for a fact that the w3's n w6's produce cleaner bass. However, in saying so, i'm not sure whether the money factor can justify that in my car because i'm not sure whetheri will notice the difference between the w1v2 n the w3v2 (or the w6v2 for that matter) because it is such a small car.


I will feed the front comps with the 75W, the rear 6x9 with the HU. Probably will fade it to reduce the sound coming from the rear to get front staging. Or better still, remove the 6X9 all together and sell it off.


reason why i got the 6x9's is that i want people in the rear to still be able to hear the music and not just the bass. I really don't want to get rid of the 6x9's because when i do get the sub all they will be able to hear (and feel) is definately bass :(

So you don't think running the 6x9's on HP filter comb such a good idea ?

[dj_s2k]

Definately work the boot.
And for squicks, it coz your cars aged enough for all the chasis flexing, worn bushes, springs.... never ends if you want perfection.
I would try to put rear tower bar to tighten the chasis, hopefully it will eleminate most of the squicks.


yea i've noticed that when i have two people in the rear and when i go round a bend the rear sound like its going to break or something and squicks. How much you reckon a rear tower bar should set me back (for my purposes) ? and is it installed within the boot itself or beneath the car to support the chassis ?

Also what do u mean by form sheets ? BTW thanks for the headsup on the flashtec and application :thumbsup:

[tron07]

my concern is the clarity of the bass coming out of the w1v2. i understand what you say and i agree its just that i know for a fact that the w3's n w6's produce cleaner bass. However, in saying so, i'm not sure whether the money factor can justify that in my car because i'm not sure whetheri will notice the difference between the w1v2 n the w3v2 (or the w6v2 for that matter) because it is such a small car.

reason why i got the 6x9's is that i want people in the rear to still be able to hear the music and not just the bass. I really don't want to get rid of the 6x9's because when i do get the sub all they will be able to hear (and feel) is definately bass :(

So you don't think running the 6x9's on HP filter comb such a good idea ?

I have use a 12W0 for few years without any problem.... They are clear, just not as powerful or as controlled as a W6. When you want a cleaner bass, how clean is that, what Hz do you cut the sub off? What Hz do you highpass your mids? How well the 2 frequency (mids and sub) blends together will make the bass sound nice. Usually people just play the sub too high, or the mids too low, thus you feel the need to put a 6X9 for the people at the rear.

If you were to go to mycarhifi, you will notice that most dont play rear at all, the people at the back seat will still get good sound as the people in the front seat.... (not as good, but still good;) )

I dont like rear speakers, especially 6X9, never have them before.....

[Fhrx]

Guys, I might just weigh into this conversation to clear a few things up.

1. Speaker selection.
We usually don't bother upgrading the rear speakers because you sit at the front and your ears face forwards. However dj_s2k, seeing as you already have the 6x9s and you do carry people in the rear you ought to keep them in place. I’d then suggest you get yourself a subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies.

2. Frequencies.
Moving onto frequencies, remember there is no such thing as a speaker that can successfully reproduce all frequencies (20-20000Hz). Therefore if you are interested in true sound quality you'll need a subwoofer to produce the lowest frequencies. Remember that just like your front speakers, co-axial 6x9's like yours can only go down to around the 60-120Hz mark accurately. Now there are 6x9 subwoofers available on the market today but yours are of the midrange / tweeter combination variety. This essentially means that while they’ll handle the majority of most music no problems, if you're listening to an instrument such as a bassoon, cello, double bass or pipe organ (where the bottom pipe is tuned to 18Hz) your 6x9's are not going to reproduce these ultra-low notes. What I suggest is that you high pass your front speakers at 60-80Hz and the rears at 80-120Hz (you'll need to do some experimenting in order to find the best settings). I’d then turn the rears down a little unless you have passengers in the rear. With the front speakers set in this region you have the majority of the sound spectrum (and therefore the image) in front of you. Then you add your subwoofer. Depending on its size and type you'll chose different settings but generally we cross subwoofers at around 60-80Hz and down. That will see the subwoofer playing the bottom one and a half octaves and filling out that bottom end of the sound that the other speakers cannot.

3. Subwoofers.
When it comes to actual choice of subwoofer, there are a few things to consider. If you can possibly stretch the budget you should always go for the better subwoofer range because they tend to have stronger motor structures and therefore can handle more power. With more power comes more control. For most cars (but not all) we do here we usually select a single 10" or 12" that has a power handling of 600-1000 watts (at 4ohm / 13.8 volt). These types of subwoofers (such as the 12W6V2) require this power due to their larger motors and when you have an amplifier that is capable of outputting this power (cleanly) you’ll end up with really deep bass extension with superior control. I guess what I'm trying to say it don't just buy a cheaper subwoofer because it's on sale. Even if you have to save for a month or two more, it's better to buy a better quality subwoofer in the long run.

4. Enclosures.
The enclosure plays a massive part of the sub-bass equation too. Make sure you do some experimenting and design the enclosure to suit the subwoofers Thiele / Small parameters. If you’re not sure on how to decipher these specs then give a specialist car audio store a ring. Although it gets quite complex and I could go on about it for ten pages plus, basically if you make the enclosure wrong you risk having a high roll-off and / or booming bass than lacks control. That is 90% of the problems with cars that come here to have their bass fixed. It is usually a lack of power or the wrong enclosure.

I hope this helps.:D

[tune2look]

yea i've noticed that when i have two people in the rear and when i go round a bend the rear sound like its going to break or something and squicks. How much you reckon a rear tower bar should set me back (for my purposes) ? and is it installed within the boot itself or beneath the car to support the chassis ?

Also what do u mean by form sheets ? BTW thanks for the headsup on the flashtec and application :thumbsup:

for the rear tower bar, you really gotta put it on and see. every car will have different result i guess.

Most traders in OH has them and keep an eye on parts for sales too.

Ebay kit will do enough to get what you want IMO.

For those form sheets, here is how it works.

First you lay damping mats to reduce vibration(eleminate at best)

Secondly 'closed cell form' over damping mat to obsorb heavier noise(lower frequency).

Lastly 'open cell form' on top layer to trap any sound that penetrates the closed cell form.

Now, the result depends on how well it is done and how many layers are applied.

You should be careful with door panels, do not use open cell form on door panels unless you waterproof the door, open cell form will suck and trap water and make a big mess.

For your boot, block drain hole and check rear taillight gasket cuz it can allow water coming in to your boot.
Then, get some ten dollar expand form spray and apply around egdes of hollow spaces behind your qtr panel.

Please use google to find some pictures of those different forms and it will explain everything.
Currently I have found some cheap place to get closed cell form, made by bridgestone or dunlops.
Just go to the carpet place and ask for insulation form.
If you want the propper ones that are made for purpose, I did not find one here but if you are desperate please PM me so we can find a way~:thumbsup:

[dj_s2k]

thanks guys for all the opinions and information. I think i've decided to stick with my 6x9's but as fhrx suggested i'm going to run that at a mid-range frequency giving my passengers in the back something to hear besides bass.

I was leaning towards the w6v2 from the start but fhrx u've really pushed me over the "undecided" line and onto the w6v2 side. Sound quality is important for me and i will wait about another 2 weeks before i can afford to get it but i am sure that it will be worth the wait :)

tune2look thanks for all the info on how i can deal with them annoying noises in my boot/rear end of my car and i think its actually the plastic mouldings around the car thats actually loose and making the noises. I'll sound deaden my boot and have a look into the the form layers u were talking about but i'll also try to secure those plastic mouldings because from what i can see it seems a little bit loose. Hence, a little bit of bass gives a hell of a lot of rattling :eek:

I'll update you all on my progress and how things turn out in the end. Hopefully all will be good within 1 - 2 months time :D

[tune2look]

As another proud owner of EK1, I know how you feel about noise...:thumbdwn:

I'll tell you a very easy and cheap mod until you get all the gear going.

There is rubber seal on doors to seal the door up.

On the chasis frame there is nothing.

Goto bunnings and buy some 1~3cm form tape and apply on frame to ensure you have no wind noise at all!

Sounds cheap? well, OEM rubber seals will set you back almost $1k for our car.

[dj_s2k]

Hey tune2look just wondering whether you had noise rattling in your EK when you first installed your system ? Did you have a sub ? Reason why i'm asking is because i want to know exactly how much work it is going to take to fully get rid of the rattling in my boot. Honestly, it sounds severe (rattling in my boot) and i'm thinkin it may take a while and quite a bit more money than expected to fully sound deaden my boot. :(

[tune2look]

Get your friend to drive your car and you seat at the back and search out all the noise where/what.
For rattle, you should get everything done and then install your system.
I got most of my small squicks and rattles by installing a canon tip :D :D
Easiest way without adding extra noise:o , is to tighten your chassis, change your rear bushes to heavyduty ones, and change all the plastic polts that holds your trim.
If you are going to remove the rear trim, get yourself some expand form spray and spray around the edges of the chassis.
If you find ghetto ways, I think you can always get what you are looking for.
Other then this general info, every car will have different problems..
trial and error is the your best friend.

[trism]

www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums


best aussie car audio site there is.

;)

[Fhrx]

This is how we get rid of rattles in Civics...

http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/temp/demo_cars_jan_2007/10.jpg

[Fr3aKi3]

This is how we get rid of rattles in Civics...

http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/temp/demo_cars_jan_2007/10.jpg

So Marty, you need a rear strut bar, a c-pillar bar and a bunch of other bars to get rid of rattles?

lol

Seriously though, dynamat is great stuff. You can definitely tell a difference with and without dynamat.

[Fhrx]

So Marty, you need a rear strut bar, a c-pillar bar and a bunch of other bars to get rid of rattles?

Hehe, yeah. Try to look past the monkey bar set in the back.:D

[Fr3aKi3]

^^^ haha

Seriously though, anymore pics of the install that went into that particular civic?

[tron07]

A lot of the rattles comes from the plastic pannel rubbing against each other and to the metal. You probably need to look at those parts too instead of just Dynamating it...

[dj_s2k]

LoL i do wanna get the rattles outta my car but just looking at that i'm just wondering where my passengers are gonna sit ahaha. Is it even street legal in NSW to have a car with all those struts n supports in the rear blocking the rear view ? I'm assuming that that particular civic is a demo or show car ??

Anywho think i've decided to dynamat the rear and i guess slowly by slowly i'll be able to pinpoint where the rattles are coming from. As tron07 has mentioned rattles are from those loose panels and i've also noticed that there are plastic pegs holding them into the chassis of the car and it is very loose. For temporary relief i've used silicone to soften the blow a lil and tried to secure the pegs into the chassis as tightly as possible. Reduced most of the rattles but there are still a little bit more so i'm gonna sound deaden as soon as my wallet recovers :D

Also decided to go w6v2 and it should be coming shortly. Hopefully within the next 2 weeks or so. Will post pics and update on how the system is going. Hopefully i'll finally get the desired sound that i was initially after. God bless Honda and their first class paneling :honda:

[dj_s2k]

ITS DONE !!! ITS FIXED !!! ITS ALIVE !!! :D
Got my 10w6v2 installed and godamn its clean as ever. The bass, the clarity its amazing. AND to top it all off the rattling in my rear is gone. I put my 6x9's on HP and just let all the bass go towards the sub and no more rattling !!! :D. So i'm guessing the rattling was because of the "bass" coming out of the 6x9's and the shoddy paneling on my old civic. I'm well aware that i should wear in the Subs so i'm not gonna pump it full blast jst yet but i've given it a lil bit of a punch here and there and honestly clean as and no distortion. At low volumes the bass is still very audible and clean. What i noticed is that it doesn't "quiver" at low volumes like all the cheap subs i've heard do. Excellent.

I will post pics up of my system setup as soon as i clean my car :o

Systems all done now just to make my car look cosmetically clean... JDM style :P

[tron07]

Can post the price of the sub?

[dj_s2k]

Can post the price of the sub?

paid round $600 for it. Got it on finance options so thats y i paid a premium for it.