View Full Version : Cusco Lower Arm Bar problem
Just got back from Euroaccord13's house to remove my Cusco lower arm bar (Type 1)... I noticed recently a hollow noise at certain RPMS - it was the lower arm bar hitting the flex pipe on my stock exhaust/headers.
How did this happen? Well listen to this. There are no visible signs of a hit or knock to the lower arm bar. There is a slight bend in the bar at one corner. Ie the bar new looks like this \__/ - well mine has a slightly different angle at one end but the base is straight! Even with pics it will be hard for people to spot any problem with the bar.
Anyway I am almost certain how the bar became bent. 10 days ago I rotated my tyres in my driveway. The process I used was fairly basic. I jacked up each corner of the car - removed the tyre - fitted the spare. Then rotated the tyre to the spot I wanted it, etc. So basically each corner was jacked up twice to be able to get the tyre where I wanted it.
Somehow the car being cocked up at each corner multiple times has bent the bar slightly. Obviously when the car is on 3 wheels with one corner lifted high it does put some pressure on the chassis - well the bar obviously can't handle that twisting pressure multiple times. I am certain this is what caused the problem as the car has barely been driven since I performed the rotation and the knocking noise has only surfaced since the rotation. There are also no prior scrapes I can recall (nor are there any scrapes or clear knocks on the bar).
The other thing I noticed immediately after rotating my tyres was that the car was drifting to the right. I thought it was the tyres. It was the lower arm bar being twisted causing the car to be out of alignment at the front end.
As soon as I removed the bar the car tracks straight as an arrow again.
Moral of the story - even with OEM headers and zorst - the lower arm bar can knock your flex pipe and throw the car out of alignment. For the lower arm bar to be out of wack all you need is some twisting motion - even jacking up the car a few times at each corner can do it.
Don't bother buying this guys - this Cusco product is far too fragile to be worth the trouble. If you already have this product make sure you use a trolley jack and avoid raising the car at each corner - raise it at front centre or rear centre jacking points with a trolley to prevent the twisting action that bent my bar. What a piece of junk -not happy :(
For people who are not familiar - this is what the bar looks like when fitted to the vehicle
http://img35.echo.cx/img35/1315/dscn24414ci.jpg
EuroAccord13
18-03-2007, 01:18 AM
Let me correct a little bit here :)
You still can use the LAB with stock headers.. There is not issue with that...
With Yfin's case, the possibility of the LAB facing undue pressure due to the car being jacked on one side is not something to be dismissed....
Not Happy too because it's my bar LOL!
Let me correct a little bit here :)
You still can use the LAB with stock headers.. There is not issue with that...
With Yfin's case, the possibility of the LAB facing undue pressure due to the car being jacked on one side is not something to be dismissed....
Not Happy too because it's my bar LOL!
Yeah I just bought your bar lol :D Yes you are right you can use the LAB with stock headers no problem. The problem is the bar is quite fragile. If you are lucky enough not to knock it (eg if your car is as high as mine) you can still damage it by jacking up the car like I did.
The irony is I didn't need to jack up the car at each corner like I did - I could have used the centre and rear jacking points as I have a trolley. :(
yourfather
18-03-2007, 01:29 AM
looks pretty tho!
BiLL|z0r
18-03-2007, 07:51 AM
Looking at the pic I'd say the left end is the end that's bent. Am I right?
Other than the car steering straight with no noises, can you feel any negative effects to not having it on any more?
mugen88
18-03-2007, 08:55 AM
Join the club, another one bites the dust!!! :(
Join the club, another one bites the dust!!! :(
They really are weak. They are made from hollow alloy - they really need to use something much stronger.
Billzor - the bar in the pic is of a new bar fitted (not my car). I showed the pic as an example to show people not familiar with where the product is fitted to the car.
aaronng
18-03-2007, 09:21 AM
Yfin, I just did the same thing, jacked the car up at each corner to swap tyres. When I get to Melb, I'll remove my bar and see if it is twisted like yours. BTW, do you still have your ingalls kit?
Yfin, I just did the same thing, jacked the car up at each corner to swap tyres. When I get to Melb, I'll remove my bar and see if it is twisted like yours. BTW, do you still have your ingalls kit?
Yeah, I'll show you my bar Aaron. Hopefully you will not have the same problem. I think I had each corner jacked up too long for the LAB as I cleaned each wheel as I went and removed and re-fitted hub rings.
Yep, I still have the Ingalls kit - not fitted to the car.
bennjamin
18-03-2007, 09:28 AM
another case of JDM FTL ?
methinks so....bars are for monkeys ! sways are for corners :)
another case of JDM FTL ?
methinks so....bars are for monkeys ! sways are for corners :)
Yes I think so - they made it too "JDM" light for the application required. The actual idea is good though as cornering feel was improved with the bar fitted. :(
bennjamin
18-03-2007, 09:36 AM
Yes I think so - they made it too "JDM" light for the application required. The actual idea is good though as cornering feel was improved with the bar fitted. :(
IMO the "feeling" would of been shortlived. The material used just cannot take that movement between the LCA's and would rattle itself loose or slowly warp.
I had a carbing front n rear tiebars , made of mild steel or stainless but they were heavy duty and would not budge.
*thoughts* ?
IMO the "feeling" would of been shortlived. The material used just cannot take that movement between the LCA's and would rattle itself loose or slowly warp.
I had a carbing front n rear tiebars , made of mild steel or stainless but they were heavy duty and would not budge.
*thoughts* ?
I think you are spot on. This Cusco bar weighs only 400 grams.
aaronng
18-03-2007, 09:53 AM
No wonder I had what looked like 4mm toe out on the right wheel but the laser alignment machine said 0mm. LOL
enkay
18-03-2007, 09:54 AM
hmm, i gotta check out my car after it comes back from repairs.. cos ive jacked up my car many times on each corner to change my wheels from street to semi slicks when i go to the track.
Unless you are getting thenoise from the flex pipe Enkay I would leave it. We are talking about a few mm difference in the angle - very hard to spot looking under the car. Even with the bar off I am having trouble seeing where the problem is (see below). What I suggest you do is look for any marks on the bar from the flex pipe - the touches I had in one week were enough to wear through the black paint added on my bar and the blue alloy finish.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/yfin/IMG_4051.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/yfin/IMG_4050.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/yfin/IMG_4049.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/yfin/IMG_4048.jpg
tony1234
18-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Mmmm mayby you need the LAB that is anchored to the chassis at four points not two.:confused:
Chris_F
18-03-2007, 07:50 PM
yea i had the typeII 4 point bar, ruined that one on a rough road... got a new one and haven't been able to put it on because the cat keeps hitting again with the new exhaust. I've given up on these things.
I think the J's racing inner-fender braces maybe the way to go. Having some reinforcement in the front end of the euro really makes steering a lot tighter the cusco bars are just difficult!
bennjamin
18-03-2007, 07:53 PM
you guys amuse me with these "new car" problems :)
Try owning a 14 year old car...creaks and rattles its way around and bars / reinforcement makes things WORSE lol.
IMO nothing bar a thicker front or rear swaybar will make a improvement on a new/er car. Anything else is in your head.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 08:03 PM
I guess, you can't expect a 400 gram piece of metal to do that kinda stress work unless its made out of titanium.
Jacking a car up puts a bit of stress on the chassis, and im guessing that these things arent designed for that kinda stuff.
Plus they're designed for "off-road" use anyway right.
Chris_F
18-03-2007, 08:50 PM
you guys amuse me with these "new car" problems :)
Try owning a 14 year old car...creaks and rattles its way around and bars / reinforcement makes things WORSE lol.
IMO nothing bar a thicker front or rear swaybar will make a improvement on a new/er car. Anything else is in your head.
The new Accord [Euro] gets a revised front double-wishbone suspension set-up that's now mounted on an isolated rubber-mounted sub-frame to improve refinement and overall ride quality.
source: http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/H/honda/accord03-/accord03--factfile-1.html?noforward=true
The four-cylinder engine is fitted with a balance shaft and together with a sophisticated engine mounting system (it uses three mounts surrounding the engine's centre of gravity; these mounts are then connected to a subframe which is rubber-mounted to the body), is wonderfully smooth and quiet.
source:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1939/article.html
The point of the lower arm bar on the euro is provide a solid link between the rubber mounted subframe and the chassis (as far as i know for the typeII bar). I definitely felt a difference ;)
The difference the bar makes is definitely noticeable. If nothing else it removed the 'dead spot' in the steering - i.e. the car has noticeably less lag from steering input to response.
Yeah the bracing does improve the steering speed I found - sharpens up the front end and how fast the car changes direction. So it does work - but I think Cusco have not put enough thought into the strength of this product. Sometime soon I will compare my bar to Aaron's (he is not having problems yet). I really want to see where my bar has failed and reduced clearance because as you can see in the pics it still looks mostly straight.
panda[cRx]
18-03-2007, 09:37 PM
ok so yfin can make negative comments about this product.... yet we can't make negative comments about any businesses due to defamation fears?
yourfather
18-03-2007, 09:56 PM
well, its not just cusco but pivot too.
;1105799']ok so yfin can make negative comments about this product.... yet we can't make negative comments about any businesses due to defamation fears?
Reporting a legitimate product failure or review truthfully is not defamation. It is no different to people posting up problems with vehicles under warranty. You can do the same if you like Panda.
If it involves a problem you have with a service conducted by an individual (eg a particular mechanic etc) - Ozhonda need to be far more cautious as the recipient is more likely to consider that an attack on their personal integrity or competence. It is a judgement exercise and is difficult to have hard and fast rules about. At the end of the day every poster is responsible for their own posts and I am responsible for my review of this product.
I would under the impression, if the bar showed signs of it being bent, it would be doing its job?
Wouldnt it be better the bar was able to flex a bit under severe twist, rather than snapping out a bolt or tearing out something along with it , if it were to be completely stiff.
And i wouldnt even recommend a under brace in the first place if you are using it for daily driving.
I would under the impression, if the bar showed signs of it being bent, it would be doing its job?
Wouldnt it be better the bar was able to flex a bit under severe twist, rather than snapping out a bolt or tearing out something along with it?
Good point - the only problem is now I don't have enough clearance to the flex pipe so it makes noise and rubs against the bar.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:12 PM
Reporting a legitimate product failure or review truthfully is not defamation. It is no different to people posting up problems with vehicles under warranty. You can do the same if you like Panda.
If it involves a problem you have with a service conducted by an individual (eg a particular mechanic etc) - Ozhonda need to be far more cautious as the recipient is more likely to consider that an attack on their personal integrity or competence. It is a judgement exercise and is difficult to have hard and fast rules about. At the end of the day every poster is responsible for their own posts and I am responsible for my review of this product.
Ok, so if we are to review a business, according to what you just said, we are the responsible entities, so why does OzHonda have to cover its ass?
For example, I can say, OMG, MY HONDA OEM HEADGASKET BLEW, F*CK HONDA.
But I can't say
OMG MY OEM HEADGASKET BLEW AND I TOOK IT TO EASTERN HONDA AND THEY'RE ALL FAT RUDE PRICKS THERE THAT CALL PEOPLE RICERS
Ok, so if we are to review a business, according to what you just said, we are the responsible entities, so why does OzHonda have to cover its ass?
Take this to site discussion if you are not happy with the answer I just gave. I have given a review of a product - not a business. I am not here to give defamation 101 either. You can do that exercise by simple research without bothering me. :)
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:14 PM
cuscos business is making products.
like mcdonalds business is selling food.
honda's business is selling cars
if you can pay for something, it is a commodity, and commoditys all have inputs and outputs, etc.
so although they're selling you a service, a service is still a commodity, and it has a benefit, so where's the difference from installing your little bar that gives you better steering.
p.s. im not taking this to site discussion because this has nothing to do with the site, it has to with bias of the poster. I think Cusco's products are great and I have not had an issue with my tower bar.
panda[cRx]
18-03-2007, 10:18 PM
Take this to site discussion if you are not happy with the answer I just gave. I have given a review of a product - not a business. I am not here to give defamation 101 either. You can do that exercise by simple research without bothering me. :)
condescending response ftw :wave:
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:19 PM
oh yeah p.s. dude, I dont have an LLB but that doesn't mean I don't have a tertiary education.
Everyone wants to be a lawyer cuz they think they'll make heaps of cash. In reality, I bet they work lots of hours, have no conscience and for the right price will do pretty much anything, defend any kinda argument.
all they care about is the $$$.. I have a bit more soul than that.
Don't attempt to patronise me, I'm not some little kid you can run around with fancy words utilizing your extensive "educated" vocabulary ostentatiously although irreverently .
p.s. im not taking this to site discussion because this has nothing to do with the site, it has to with bias of the poster. I think Cusco's products are great and I have not had an issue with my tower bar.
He is reviewing a lower arm brace, not tower bar.
But yfin, you are reviewing a product which imho was intended for track use, not for daily driving which have chances on bumpy roads or pot holes.
Another thing is you even said yourself you jacked up the car very awkwardly with the bar on which caused the flex.
I honestly think this is also another good thing shown as it shows the bar actually preventing as much flex under those conditions and to mearly bend a small amount.
Also about the knocking oem headers, the cusco lower tie bar was designed for JDM Accord Euro R's with the k20a (correct me if im wrong) ,not for the AUDM K24A ,so the bar design might be more catered for that engine/header/exhuast not AUDM's
You must also take that into consideration.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:24 PM
oh yeah I understand Chi, but still, for everyone 1 person out there that says something negative, im sure you can find someone that will say something positive. That's the idea behind free speech and freedom of ideas and stuff. When you start instructing people on how to think and what to say and where to go look for information, that's when you're really trying to try and be someone's ruler.
I just stated my opinion about Cusco's product that I have, how is that more or less valid than his.
He is reviewing a lower arm brace, not tower bar.
But yfin, you are reviewing a product which imho was intended for track use, not for daily driving which have chances on bumpy roads or pot holes.
Another thing is you even said yourself you jacked up the car very awkwardly with the bar on which caused the flex.
I honestly think this is also another good thing shown as it shows the bar actually preventing as much flex under those conditions and to mearly bend a small amount.
I jsut think you are overeacting negatively towards this product.
That is true - but I am entitled to my own opinion on the suitability of this product for the CL9 based on my experience. So is everyone else. I have a Cusco tower bar and no problems with that.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:29 PM
Indeed, so from now on, can I post up my opinions on products and services I have received as long as they are factual and based on my experience.
Or do I have to have a green name before I can say that I don't like Eastern honda because they call customers ricers
That is true - but I am entitled to my own opinion on the suitability of this product for the CL9 based on my experience. So is everyone else. I have a Cusco tower bar and no problems with that.
Obviously you're entitled to your own opinion, but you must also take into consideration the intended design and aim of the product.
Not to simply say it is a piece of junk.
You even yourself proved a test by jacking up the chasis/car awkwardly and flexing the chasis with the bar on, isn't that proof enough the bar is actually working to its limits?
If you bought a set of semi slicktyres which were entended for dry track use, and you used it in the rain and it didnt grip as good, would you say its a heap of junk ?
I believe Cusco did what was right as much as possible, it is imho up to the trader/dealers of the products who sell it for a different car to notify customers of the fitting and its issues with different model cars not intended originally to be fitted .
Mr_will
18-03-2007, 10:42 PM
[QUOTE=yourfather;1105889]oh yeah I understand Chi, but still, for everyone 1 person out there that says something negative, im sure you can find someone that will say something positive. That's the idea behind free speech and freedom of ideas and stuff. When you start instructing people on how to think and what to say and where to go look for information, that's when you're really trying to try and be someone's ruler.
/QUOTE]
australia does not have a bill of rights, and there is, in fact, no guarantee of freedom of speech in this country.
i do however agree with what youre saying, i think the real issue here is consistency, but at the end of the day like yfin said, each individual poster is responsible for what they post.
Indeed, so from now on, can I post up my opinions on products and services I have received as long as they are factual and based on my experience.
Or do I have to have a green name before I can say that I don't like Eastern honda because they call customers ricers
Review products truthfully and factually if you wish. For services it can be problematic and can require a judgement call due to the personal nature of the service. Nothing more I can explain and I think if you are concerned about the law of defamation you should make your own enquiries for your own benefit. It is not my role here to educate you about civil law and I have explained the position re products vs services as best as I can.
Obviously you're entitled to your own opinion, but you must also take into consideration the entended design and aim of the product.
Not to simply say it is a piece of junk.
You even yourself proved a test by jacking up the chasis/car awkwardly and flexing the chasis with the bar on, isn't that proof enough the bar is actually working to its limits?
If you bought a set of semi slicktyres which were entended for dry track use, and you used it in the rain and it didnt grip as good, would you say its a heap of junk ?
I believe Cusco did what was right as much as possible, it is imho up to the trader/dealers of the products who sell it for a different car to notify customers of the fitting and its issues with different model cars not intended originally to be fitted .
Chi - fair enough. I will edit the subject title because people are obviously upset about me saying my bar is junk - which it is. It is damaged and cannot be used.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 10:51 PM
Review products truthfully and factually if you wish. For services it can be problematic and can require a judgement call due to the personal nature of the service. Nothing more I can explain and I think if you are concerned about the law of defamation you should make your own enquiries for your own benefit. It is not my role here to educate you about civil law and I have explained the position re products vs services as best as I can.
Stop being patronising man.
You damaged it, and you made it into junk, it was fine before you jacked your car up.
Its like if you overclock a CPU, or you run your car around 2cm from the ground on the bumpstops. Whose fault is that?
EuroAccord13
18-03-2007, 10:56 PM
OOI!
Not a thread about Civic Rights and yada yada...
Anything not related to the product is question will be DELETED from now on.... :D
Stop being patronising man.
You damaged it, and you made it into junk, it was fine before you jacked your car up.
Its like if you overclock a CPU, or you run your car around 2cm from the ground on the bumpstops. Whose fault is that?
You are entitled to your opinion too! And I am not patronising you by saying I have explained things as best I can. What more do you want me to do? If anything you seem to have some sort of problem with me for what reason I have no idea. You haven't even met me.
yourfather
18-03-2007, 11:04 PM
i just like debate
ACTI0NMAN-1
18-03-2007, 11:36 PM
is this item designed for street or track. and if its track. are we talking about motorkana, rally or curcuit. because all these put different strain on the bar. Seems like the bar is for flat track racing. Where there shouldnt be as much flex on that part of the body, as you would have it jacking it up from a single corner.
on a track other suspension components would assist in easing the strain.
I believe you just overloaded the bar by placing strain in areas not accustom to the bars design.
is this item designed for street or track. and if its track. are we talking about motorkana, rally or curcuit. because all these put different strain on the bar. Seems like the bar is for flat track racing. Where there shouldnt be as much flex on that part of the body, as you would have it jacking it up from a single corner.
on a track other suspension components would assist in easing the strain.
I believe you just overloaded the bar by placing strain in areas not accustom to the bars design.
Well said - I don't think this bar is capable of withstanding street use and 'civilian' jacks from my experience with it. Or it is quite possible there was a manufacturing defect which caused premature failure.
Well if the bar wasn't there in there at all, imagine the strain the chasis would have without it there
aaronng
18-03-2007, 11:54 PM
Well said - I don't think this bar is capable of withstanding street use and 'civilian' jacks from my experience with it. Or it is quite possible there was a manufacturing defect which caused premature failure.
Most of these parts are designed to be used only for track.
tony1234
19-03-2007, 06:28 AM
I'll stick with just the Cusco tower brace now.Won't bother with the type 1 and II LAB.Plus i have my car lowered as well so i think that i would have clearance issues if i installed these.:)
mr747
20-03-2007, 09:37 AM
I'll stick with just the Cusco tower brace now.Won't bother with the type 1 and II LAB.Plus i have my car lowered as well so i think that i would have clearance issues if i installed these.:)Tony where did you get the tower brace from?
EuroAccord13
20-03-2007, 12:34 PM
Tony where did you get the tower brace from?
Contact our traders... :)
tony1234
20-03-2007, 04:23 PM
Tony where did you get the tower brace from?
JDM Concept.He's a trader here.Leo,good guy:thumbsup: BTW it cost $249 delivered.
there is a lot of off topic crap being posting..
i would rather a brace be a soft compound and break then be a hard compound that will transfer the energy to crucial chassis components..
cusco do make quality products, no doubt about it.. But maybe some of their products are pointless and poorly thought out, but the quality of welds, material etc is top.
sodaz
22-03-2007, 06:58 PM
I've had mine for quite a while now and have also jacked up my car and changed tyres but nothing has happened to it. You must've placed a lot of strain on the bar to twist it.
aaronng
22-03-2007, 07:48 PM
I've jacked my car up to rotate tyres before too. Bar came off last night and it was not bent like Yfin's was. The mounting points of the bar was almost parallel to the ground and I had to rubbing with the headers.
EuroAccord13
23-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Your's wasn't bent AS much... Your one was minimal :D
aaronng
23-03-2007, 06:21 AM
Your's wasn't bent AS much... Your one was minimal :D
Minimal = almost no bend! hahha... Anyway, mine, the left side was flat to the floor, and the right was only very slightly at an angle.
Minimal = almost no bend! hahha... Anyway, mine, the left side was flat to the floor, and the right was only very slightly at an angle.
Are you aware of hitting the bar or any signs of impact? So you also had signs of touching with the header?
aaronng
23-03-2007, 06:39 AM
Are you aware of hitting the bar or any signs of impact? So you also had signs of touching with the header?
None at all. The blue paint of the cusco bar is 100% intact (because my car was not lowered throughout the whole time I had the bar on).
None at all. The blue paint of the cusco bar is 100% intact (because my car was not lowered throughout the whole time I had the bar on).
The paint on mine is intact as well (except on the inside from the header). So how do you think your bar is bent if there was no impact? I know some people are skeptics but there is something odd going on here.
aaronng
23-03-2007, 08:12 AM
The paint on mine is intact as well (except on the inside from the header). So how do you think your bar is bent if there was no impact? I know some people are skeptics but there is something odd going on here.
I don't think my bar is bent. I think that the slight angle came from manufacturing. I have no dents, scrapes, scratches anywhere on the bar. If I washed it, I could sell it as an "as new" bar. And, my alignment is still the same when without the LAB, so my alignment problem comes from somewhere else.
Update on this - reinstalled the lower arm bar this time with 2 x 16mm galvanised washers on each corner. It increases the clearance to the flex pipe by about 4mm. So far so good - no rattles from the flex pipe whilst driving. Hopefully this will avoid the noise problem. I am going to see how things go - and not raise the car at each corner as all my problems started from that point in time...! Car is tracking fine at the moment. Thanks to euroaccord13.
If anyone out there hears a faint rattle from under the car give the washers a go to improve clearance.
Mattell mentioned that I check the exhaust hanger - it is not damaged and all was ok in that respect.
Having the bar back on reinforces the handling improvement, i noticed it at the first corner. I just pray I will not have any more issues with this product as it does work.
Pumped
23-04-2007, 12:06 PM
Was your flex pipe/cat hitting your lower arm bar often?
ive got the problem of cat or flex pipe (not sure which one) hitting the Lower Arm bar if i try to launch the car or when i get wheel hop.
Is adding washers going to allowed enough space to help this problem at all?
Was your flex pipe/cat hitting your lower arm bar often?
ive got the problem of cat or flex pipe (not sure which one) hitting the Lower Arm bar if i try to launch the car or when i get wheel hop.
Is adding washers going to allowed enough space to help this problem at all?
No it wasn't hitting often - it was in the higher gears at full throttle.
You should try to avoid wheel hop as it is very harsh on the vehicle. I found that fitting stiffer suspension and wider tyres has helped incredibly in terms of reducing hop. I can't remember the last time it happened.
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