C/B Pillar bars ? RICE or actually work

[EK4R]

anyways I had a read here and honda-tech.

these things really work at all? some say it makes it stiffer and it removes squeek. and the rest just say its for handing clothes.

what i want to know could you actually feel the difference in handling for DAILY DRIVING? and which part does it improve (turn-in, understeer etc).

cheers

I DONT WANT E-MECH or SOMEONE WITH NO ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE FEEDING ME CRAP INFO

[BlitZ]

b pillar is ok... doesnt help all that much and isnt really noticable.. mentally its great.. Ill be removing mine shortly..

[[RSX 03]]

i don't feel jack crap with the c-pillar.

It's just there for JDM Bling.

[[ricer]]

no difference at all to me...
but then again i've never tracked my car yet, only use it on the roads

i covered mine with padding usually used for roof racks...
now it makes a comfortable head rest for rear passengers :thumbsup:

[T-onedc2]

It might be worth adding that although the c/b pillar bar won't be easily noticable, the fact that it is solely there to eliminate chassis flex won't necessarily make it handle better but will make the handling more predictable on the limit as the suspension geometry is not changing as much therefore maintaining better contact with the road.
I'd expect this to be especially worth having if you are running semi's at the track which will put much more strain on the chassis.

[bennjamin]

any pillar bar = rice.

Only bars thta do anything , LINK and REINFORCE 2 sides of the car that is under torsional pressure.
IE swaybar or strut bar

[T-onedc2]

If so then how is it that a roll cage increases rigidity and therefore handling?

[bennjamin]

If so then how is it that a roll cage increases rigidity and therefore handling?

A roll cage....is NOT designed to "increase rigidity and therefore handling".
A roll cage on any car with basic suspension would DECREASE handling.
A roll cage , like the name suggest is for ROLLING.


" a structural framework designed to prevent serious bodyshell deformation in the case of a collision or roll-over"

[zco]

chuck you might want to read up on cusco 21 rollcages on honda-tech. they're not designed for rolling. they're just simple bolt on cages that crumble from the force of a hammer. guys in the U.S buy em for bling blue colour, or for autocrossing/motokhana events

long story short. install a bolt on cage ie:cusco, roll, and die LOL

[SINISTR]

A roll cage....is NOT designed to "increase rigidity and therefore handling".
A roll cage on any car with basic suspension would DECREASE handling.
A roll cage , like the name suggest is for ROLLING.

UM... Correction Benn,

YES - a rollcage DOES increase Chassis RIGIDITY and HANDLING if its built correctly!

A normal cage ie: main loop/rear legs and front legs will provide a safety net for the occupants of the car during a rollover.

BUT

if a rollcage is built with added 'triangulated' tubes, its WELDED in not just bolted in - it will stiffen the overall chassis against flexing during corners. The 'handling' benefit of a rollcage can only be see if the rollcage is using a triangulated design to make it stronger and is also attached to the A/B/C pillars in the car.

Eg: Japanese Race Cars and Drift Cars all have Rollcages installed - but not purely for the 'safety' but also to stiffen the body up.

[EK4R]

alright guess i have no need for a pillar then. solved n closed plz
cheers all

[SINISTR]

A 'C' pillar brace in my opinion will in some way benefit a car if its using the triangulated design and is linked to a brace between the struts.

[e240]

I use a C-Pillar on the EG cause the rear hatch has been known to pop up
under cornering stress and so far, the rear hatch hasn't pop'ed under track conditions...and I'm not about to remove it to validate - Something pops, something usually breaks...so I'll live with the bling.

I also run a B Pillar. Could get a cage...yeah....but it'll have to be weld in to be beneficial to rigidity...but with the bars, at least I can remove them and use my back seats if needed.

[panda[cRx]]

hmmm i thought i could feel a SLIGHT difference with my no-name rear bar, not much but something. i wouldnt say it improved the handling but the car did feel a little 'tighter'... then again it could have all been all in my head coz it's hard to really measure stuff like that

[dupac->]

i got c pillar bar.. but doesnt feel any different

just more squeekage added to my car.

nothing as noticeable when u upgrade sways n struts.. i felt a difference with them as soon as i hit the first corner.

[CTR Coupe]

A roll cage....is NOT designed to "increase rigidity and therefore handling".
It might not be designed to increase rigidity but it does. We had to reduce the spring rates in our race car after adding a roll cage.

[fatboyz39]

A roll cage....is NOT designed to "increase rigidity and therefore handling".
A roll cage on any car with basic suspension would DECREASE handling.
A roll cage , like the name suggest is for ROLLING.

Errr....... roll cage DOES increase rigidity and Handling.

IT INCREASES HANDLING.

I myself have a 4 point bolt on roll cage and So does my bro's EG civic and i must say its one of the BBEST suspension mods you could DO.

SO for C/B pillar bars ill say they would acutally work.:thumbsup:

[bennjamin]

Id hate to see your car/s in an accident on the everyday road :(

Ive dispelled a myth - some people seem to think rollcages are a handling upgrade. A rollcage is designed for safety guys - but yes it does change handling. And , a roll cage is not a pillar bar. This thread is about PILLAR bars experience , not a roll cage :)
BTW Zco , yeah read em up. Those cusos style "Bolt on" cages are pathetic. Anyone got one ?

Anyone else have pillar bar experience ? IE track people , bother with pillar bars ?

[Benson]

If anyone is going to put more than 3-4 bars in there cars should think about getting a roll cage.

Roll cage are a more effective means of strengthening and adding stability to the car. It will definitely improve handling both on streets and track.

I've trial both, monkey bars in my cars (c's, b's, strut brace) and now a roll cage. Roll cage just has been the best form of strengthening to the car as well as safety.

[bennjamin]

If anyone is going to put more than 3-4 bars in there cars should think about getting a roll cage.

Roll cage are a more effective means of strengthening and adding stability to the car. It will definitely improve handling both on streets and track.

I've trial both, monkey bars in my cars (c's, b's, strut brace) and now a roll cage. Roll cage just has been the best form of strengthening to the car as well as safety.

do u run a upgraded front or rear swaybar ?

Have you found more increased turn in with a roll cage present ?

[Benson]

only rear sway has been upgraded to the whiteline kit. Yes front end is more pointy and response very well.

[SINISTR]

Id hate to see your car/s in an accident on the everyday road :(

Ive dispelled a myth - some people seem to think rollcages are a handling upgrade. A rollcage is designed for safety guys - but yes it does change handling. And , a roll cage is not a pillar bar. This thread is about PILLAR bars experience , not a roll cage :)
BTW Zco , yeah read em up. Those cusos style "Bolt on" cages are pathetic. Anyone got one ?

Anyone else have pillar bar experience ? IE track people , bother with pillar bars ?

No offence but you're contradicting yourself then Benn, as you stated that roll cages don't change rigidity and handling, only for safety :cool: - never mind LOL

I have a CUSCO Safety21 Cage sitting at home (un-installed). And YES, although it is NOT approved for 'TRACK USE' by CAMS - it can be approved for ROAD use by the local Road Traffic Department.
Anything is better than nothing in reality, but saying a CUSCO cage is BAD - i'm asking for PROOF.
A Home made cage i'd be worried to install, but these cages according to CUSCO have been tested and pass 'their' tests. Those may not be thesame rules here, and it fails but it doesn't mean its CRAP.

Anyway - back to the 'braces' questions.

[JasonGilholme]

I'll just say that chassis rigidity enhances the stability/predictability of the car mid-corner.

Hence the decrease in handling when you remove the roof of a del sol...

[panda[cRx]]

reminder: this thread is about B/C pillars, not roll cages

[CTR Coupe]

I have a CUSCO Safety21 Cage sitting at home (un-installed). And YES, although it is NOT approved for 'TRACK USE' by CAMS - it can be approved for ROAD use by the local Road Traffic Department.
Anything is better than nothing in reality, but saying a CUSCO cage is BAD - i'm asking for PROOF.
A Home made cage i'd be worried to install, but these cages according to CUSCO have been tested and pass 'their' tests. Those may not be thesame rules here, and it fails but it doesn't mean its CRAP.


Where people nitpick the Cusco cages.

The bolt in aspect, sheer a bolt during a crash and you’re in the same trouble as normal with more metal flying around in the car.

The design of the front impact zone bars that fit around the dash so you don’t have to cut the dash. This design is useless it will just bend during in a crash possibly crushing your legs and trapping you.

Plus there are no side impact bars.

Front impact protection should look something like this
http://www.redstonemotors.com/store.orig/images/devin/civic_rollcage/paint/CIMG3623_800.jpg
No weird bends to fit around dash, side impact protection, all straight lines with triangulation where possible.
I'm unsure if this would past roadworthy inspection.

This would be the bare minimum for front impact protection. still the same front end as the one above but without the X side impact. more applicable for a street car. still unsure if it would pass inspection
http://www.nrgtechracing.com/2007/_DSC1529.jpg

[Icegroove]

I have a c-pillar (and floor for that matter...) and i wouldnt say it makes the most noticeable of differences.

I would most probably agree with those that have said that it 1) made it feel 'tighter' and 2) more predictable.

:)

[nigs]

Got all the usual sways and strut bars with coilovers 12/6kg.
Added the B Pillar and notice less flex. I'm not sure if that means "better handling"
But changing direction/weight quickly gives a more direct feed back with the nose. And the ass doesn't really drag behind as much when taking long sweeping corners. So everything feels a lil "tighter"

Chicanes are much easier and FUN to clear.
Given the car's age (15+), any bracing/reinforcement can't be a bad thing. =\

Only negative thing when stiffening the car, worn/old bushes are really noticable now. When they weren't before :(
Damn amplified effect >_<

Haven't bothered with a C pillar yet. Don't feel it's worth the coin.

[SINISTR]

double post.

[SINISTR]

Thats still no Proof - and lets face it - are we talking 'STREET or TRACK'?

For a start you'd have to be crazy to bolt any 'bolt-in' cage or a CUSCO cage directly to your floorpan using bolts - maybe 'that' is where all this 'unsafe' theory is around boltin cages. You should use a base plate which can be welded to the floor/chassis and then drilled through, another plate from underneath and bolted down. At this stage it wouldn't be a stupid idea to weld the cage to the base plate for extra support reducing risk of seperation.

6+ point Roll Cages (front legs) are not approved for street use in Australia - full stop. So the images posted above don't prove anything, infact both are shown in a LHD car thefore completly don't justify 'safe' roll cages in Australia.

I agree that the front 2 points of a cage which fits before the dash are dangerous - but it applies to 'ALL' cages with such design not just CUSCO.

'SIDE INTRUSION' Bars are also illegal in a street car in Australia and no, the 2nd pics side bars would NOT pass inspection.

The ONLY reason why CUSCO cages don't pass CAMS approval is due to the thickness of the piping being too thin by 0.5mm. Therefore its a street cage. Sure some may install it because it looks pretty, others will install it because it will actually do something beneficial as long as its bolted in correctly - compared to not having a cage at all.

[BlitZ]

on an old car everything helps... on a new car with strong chasis and good bushing it would be hardly felt..

mainly inteneded for track. if u want bpillar bar for looks then you might as well get chromies.. which i shold be considering ahah

[CTR Coupe]

I just stated why Cusco cages get a bad wrap.


ALL bolt in cages are bad.
all cages that form around dash and have stupid aesthetic bend are bad.

the only type of cage i would be running in my road car would be a welded half cage anyway and this would be only if i fitted a harness. 3 point seat belts let your body move and slide out in a roll over harnesses hold you in place and you get crushed.

why do Cusco make cages that are .5mm too thin. aren't CAMS standards based on FIA standards?
do Cusco cages meet the CAMS/FIA equivalent in japan?

I'm just stating why people rip on Cusco cages.

two things that stand out

1. Custom made welded cage designed and built by an engineer are better than a Cusco cage

2. Cusco cages don't meet standards = useless for track

This leads to people that have them to be labeled as show offs.

[bennjamin]

b pillar bars and c pillar bars also arent people friendly in a crash !

[e240]

b pillar bars and c pillar bars also arent people friendly in a crash !

No metal bars in a car are people friendly without the appropriate safety gear, even a roll cage (That means Helmet people!)

With B and Cs, You should not be carrying passengers. However, they would generally be safer as long as the bars are behind your seat and do not run past your ear or something.

[bennjamin]

No metal bars in a car are people friendly without the appropriate safety gear, even a roll cage (That means Helmet people!)

With B and Cs, You should not be carrying passengers. However, they would generally be safer as long as the bars are behind your seat and do not run past your ear or something.

Cs maybe -the examples of B pillar bars are too inviting when it comes to safety. Unless you have really short arms/legs :p, you are likely to be seated quite close to the B pillar location (right where the seatbelt guide is) and in any accident the return on whiplash would be a killer


fatboyz39 (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=2325) - hate it , only because of the negative effect your car will get in a impact. Instead of crumpling your body will take the brunt of the force and the car will bounce into the opposite direction.
Hence why generally rollcages are silly for everyday driving.Be careful out there man !

BTW i would love to have a roll cage on a track only car lol

[fatboyz39]

Id hate to see your car/s in an accident on the everyday road :(



why would you hate it so much? Its 4 point roll cage bolt-in, which makes it legal once engineered on Australian Roads.

If you ever get a chance to get hold of a roll cage, you'll know what i mean. :thumbsup:

[e240]

Cs maybe -the examples of B pillar bars are too inviting when it comes to safety. Unless you have really short arms/legs :p, you are likely to be seated quite close to the B pillar location (right where the seatbelt guide is) and in any accident the return on whiplash would be a killer


Yeah, but the B pillar is generally behind the seat, infact, in cases of whiplash, the B pillar would act as a brace to reduce the backward motion of the seat. Thats what it looks like anyway.

If (The B pillar bar) is beside or in front of the drivers seat, you'd need to relook at your sitting position or you've mounted the thing wrong.

[bennjamin]

in whiplash methinks the force back would be enough for your head (even more so with a helmet on) to go thru the seat and impact the b pillar bar anyway. Since they dont have ADR's in regards to the bars what can we say. Until some kid gets killed by one in a minor accident :(

[Muzz]

Wow this thread went off topic fast, wasnt it somthing to do with the effectivness of B and C pillars lol?

Heres my view, keeping in mind that iv never actually felt one on the same car before and after after adding a pillar brace.

B and c pillar bars keep the same distance between the pillars. There used for increasing the torsional rigidity of the vechicle, and studying mechanical engineering i cannot see anyway they can really achieve this goal effectivly.

If you took the chassis, and twisted the front and rear in opposite directions to get say 3 degrees of twist between the front and the rear, will the distance between the pillars actually change? I dont believe so at all.

These bars act in a single plane across the chassis.

To increase torsional ridigity it would be a million times more effective to make a X brace where one bar goes from the drivers side seatbelt mount (where a b pillar brace mounts) to the passanger side rear strut tower, and the other going from the passenger side seat belt mount to the drivers side strut tower. This would resist any twisting of the chassis between the rear struts (none experianced behind this point anyway) and the b pillar, exactly like a half cage would. (Shit i cant wait to start designing my own performance products)

Like this but connected to the b pillars instead of the c pillars
http://icbmotorsport.com/New3/eg.jpg


Where does a b/c pillar bar stop any chassis twist? I dont know they are only in a single plane across the chassis very little is going to change between either of these points if the chassis is twisted. Think of it like a tall stack of buisness cards, you twist each card ever so slightly, so that there is say 3 degrees of difference between the top and bottom card.

Is there going to be a change in distance across a single card in the middle of the pile when the piles twisted compared to straight? Nope.

There will however be a change in distance from the top left hand corner of the bottom card to the top right hand corner of a card midway in the pile, when when the piles twisted compared to straight. This change in distance is what the brace needs to resist, to stop the chassis twisting as much.

[Muzz]

I should point out, that increasing the torsional rigidity is performance inhancing, ideally the best would be for the car to have a single roll angle ie, no twisting down the chassis between the front and rear during hard cornering forces, the goal of any performance car builder.

Increasing the stiffness of cirtain areas of a car can increase the feel of the car without any effect on the torsional rigidity which is what im talking about, ie strut bars, tiebars, korbach frame locks etc. A stiffer feeling car, dosnt always mean a increase in the torsional rigidity which is the main PERFORMANCE increasing aspect of a stiff car. The other performance increasing aspect of a stiff car is keeping the suspension mount points from flexing using strut bars, tiebars etc. Somthing that b/c pillar bars obviously dont do.

So in conclusion lol, i believe b/c pillars, if they achieve anything they might increase the feel of the car, but nothing that will effect the actual performance of the car.

Have a search in honda-tech.com in the roadracing autocross forum for b pillar/c pillar bars, i find this section to be filled with much much more clued up guys than all other areas of honda-tech, i think youll find most are of the same view that its a waste of money as a performance mod.

[EK4R]

well put muzz! +1

[e240]

in whiplash methinks the force back would be enough for your head (even more so with a helmet on) to go thru the seat and impact the b pillar bar anyway. Since they dont have ADR's in regards to the bars what can we say. Until some kid gets killed by one in a minor accident :(

No way your head will go through the seat...That means the seat would've failed ADR in the firs place. Typically seats would break at the swivel join at the base of the seat.

But I say again, with B and Cs, you really shouldn't be carrying passengers

[e240]

[QUOTE=Muzz;1151924] if they achieve anything they might increase the feel of the car, but nothing that will effect the actual performance of the car.
QUOTE]

If they improve the feel of the car, they would've had some effectives on the performance of the car. :confused:

[bennjamin]

your head will flys forward and then back in whiplash , likely breaking a seat or atleast pushing it back. Likely could come into contact with a B pillar bar sitting there. Lets agree , rather than try to find out lol



If they improve the feel of the car, they would've had some effectives on the performance of the car. :confused:

Feel of car can equal worse handling too - IE more front response can = more understeer. But we can all agree that b + c pillar bars are not a handling upgrade in the same leauge as swaybars , coilovers or other hardcore bars. They are for looks only

[JasonGilholme]

They are for looks only

Have you read anyone elses posts apart from your own?

There is plenty of evidence saying that they do have some sort of physical effect on the chassis.

Meaning they are not just an asthetic mod.

[e240]

But we can all agree that b + c pillar bars are not a handling upgrade in the same leauge as swaybars , coilovers or other hardcore bars. They are for looks only

Well, I've had them in my car when I track and never tried tracking without.
I'm going pretty well so I guess I'll leave them where they are - If its going good, don't change anything.. Hahahaha...

[bennjamin]

Have you read anyone elses posts apart from your own?

There is plenty of evidence saying that they do have some sort of physical effect on the chassis.

Meaning they are not just an asthetic mod.

yes ive read through the entire thread. They are just a asthetic mod , compared to any real suspension addition / upgrade.They feel better initially but once proper cornering/track setup comes into play they have little effect at all.
Read my entire post too rather than quoting a section pulling it out of context.

But we can all agree that b + c pillar bars are not a handling upgrade in the same leauge as swaybars , coilovers or other hardcore bars. They are for looks only

e240 , try without pillar bars and tell us all if there is a difference on hard driving / cornering :)

[barefootbonzai]

Well, I've had them in my car when I track and never tried tracking without.
I'm going pretty well so I guess I'll leave them where they are - If its going good, don't change anything.. Hahahaha...

What track was this? I remember a few of us asking if you have ever tracked your car and you replied no...

[e240]

e240 , try without pillar bars and tell us all if there is a difference on hard driving / cornering :)

I probably won't try. Like I said, the EG rear hatch has been known to break under stress and I'm not about to try and find out just to prove a point. :-)

[e240]

What track was this? I remember a few of us asking if you have ever tracked your car and you replied no...

I don't recall having been asked on this forum if I tracked, but if you must know, it both Eastern Creek and Oran Park South.

[Muzz]

[QUOTE=Muzz;1151924] if they achieve anything they might increase the feel of the car, but nothing that will effect the actual performance of the car.
QUOTE]

If they improve the feel of the car, they would've had some effectives on the performance of the car. :confused:

To increasing the performance of the car, IMO it needs to increase the grip at the wheels.

So your saying, its imposible to make the car feel more solid without increasing the grip at the wheels? Yes or No?

There obviously not there to brace the suspension mount points, so they must increase the tortional rigidiy for any gain in actual performance at the wheels. Do you think its imposible to make the car feel stiffer, without effecting the torsional ridigity? Let me answer that for you, No.

Take korbach frame locks for example, have a search of the net for em, everyone gives them great reviews. They truly make the front of the car feel a hell of alot more solid taking away alot of flimsyness, especially on rough ground. Does this mean that grip in cornering is ultimatly improved. Track testing done by honda challange drivers show no gain in laptimes, yet they make the car feel stiffer...... A good indication that a better feel to the car dosnt magically mean the cars performance has improved..

[e240]

[QUOTE=e240;1152049]

To increasing the performance of the car, IMO it needs to increase the grip at the wheels.

So your saying, its imposible to make the car feel more solid without increasing the grip at the wheels? Yes or No?

There obviously not there to brace the suspension mount points, so they must increase the tortional rigidiy for any gain in actual performance at the wheels. Do you think its imposible to make the car feel stiffer, without effecting the torsional ridigity? Let me answer that for you, No.

Take korbach frame locks for example, have a search of the net for em, everyone gives them great reviews. They truly make the front of the car feel a hell of alot more solid taking away alot of flimsyness, especially on rough ground. Does this mean that grip in cornering is ultimatly improved. Track testing done by honda challange drivers show no gain in laptimes, yet they make the car feel stiffer...... A good indication that a better feel to the car dosnt magically mean the cars performance has improved..

I'm coming from a point if the car feels better, the driver should then have more confidence when they drive, and that is just as important to getting a good lap time.

[nigs]

I think these fall into the same field as Master Brake Cylinder Braces.

The brake brace won't make your car stop any faster or in a shorter distance but helps with FEEDBACK.

Much like B/C pillar braces.

As e240 said, confidence can result in better lap times.

[EK4R]

As e240 said, confidence can result in better lap times.

over-confidence can result in no lap time at all

[Muzz]

I'm coming from a point if the car feels better, the driver should then have more confidence when they drive, and that is just as important to getting a good lap time.

Fair enough, valid point. Im coming from the point that it wont effect the mechanical limits of grip. Ie, the car cant corner faster, brake or accelerate harder.
If you feel it helps you feel those limits better, and helps you drive more consistantly at the limit of traction, then thats awsome:thumbsup:

[BlitZ]

i think this thread is getting stupid..

how can an extra bar not assist in overall handling?
it does and it will... but by how much is the question and if its worthwhile..

Please dont claim it does absolutly nothing cause thats BS
you chasis flexes... trust me .. u think it doesnt but it does.. everyhting helps..

place a thin thin piece of blue tak on you rear windscreen and your parcel tray.. take it to the track and watch it break and disonnect.. I can guarantee it.. if it doesnt it only means u arent driving hard enough.

An ebay bar is better than no bar... any bar is better than no bar...


And lets just stay on topic and not talk about sawy bar and tyres.. it like saying remove a turbo and your car handles better..

[Icegroove]

I think these fall into the same field as Master Brake Cylinder Braces.

The brake brace won't make your car stop any faster or in a shorter distance but helps with FEEDBACK.


:thumbsup: I agree :)

[fatboyz39]

i think this thread is getting stupid..

how can an extra bar not assist in overall handling?
it does and it will... but by how much is the question and if its worthwhile..

Please dont claim it does absolutly nothing cause thats BS
you chasis flexes... trust me .. u think it doesnt but it does.. everyhting helps..

place a thin thin piece of blue tak on you rear windscreen and your parcel tray.. take it to the track and watch it break and disonnect.. I can guarantee it.. if it doesnt it only means u arent driving hard enough.

An ebay bar is better than no bar... any bar is better than no bar...



I totally agree with you brudda.:thumbsup: Too many dumb ppl on this forum.:thumbdwn:

[Couped Up]

i think this thread is getting stupid..

how can an extra bar not assist in overall handling?
it does and it will... but by how much is the question and if its worthwhile..

Please dont claim it does absolutly nothing cause thats BS
you chasis flexes... trust me .. u think it doesnt but it does.. everyhting helps..

place a thin thin piece of blue tak on you rear windscreen and your parcel tray.. take it to the track and watch it break and disonnect.. I can guarantee it.. if it doesnt it only means u arent driving hard enough.

An ebay bar is better than no bar... any bar is better than no bar...


And lets just stay on topic and not talk about sawy bar and tyres.. it like saying remove a turbo and your car handles better..





I agree stay on topic.......

[ginganggooly]

Of course bracing helps in stiffening things up... How much the bracing actually adds to the torsional rigidity of the car is the question.
I think a cross brace of some sort would be ideal- and guess what. *shock horror* a bolt in roll cage does just that. It braces the front to the rear, with some rigid tubes.

It probably increases the centre of gravity a tad, but thats just grasping at straws really.

[ginganggooly]

- hate it , only because of the negative effect your car will get in a impact. Instead of crumpling your body will take the brunt of the force and the car will bounce into the opposite direction.
Hence why generally rollcages are silly for everyday driving.Be careful out there man !

Not to be pedantic, but cages sit inside the cabin. The cabin (in modern cars) is encapsulated by an already rigid safety cell. By the time you've reached cabin space, you want every bit of rigidity you can get. A proper cage improves safety by beefing up the safety cell concept.

Simply put, the cage shouldn't really interfere with the crumple zones...

[e240]

i think this thread is getting stupid..
And lets just stay on topic and not talk about sawy bar and tyres.. it like saying remove a turbo and your car handles better..

Aii...Chill man...So far everything discussed is relevant and natural evolution of a thread...Thats how threads live otherwise they get boring and nobody learns anything.

Also, every one is entitled to their opinion, better if it can be tied to experience...

[Muzz]

how can an extra bar not assist in overall handling?


Easy, if it dosnt effect the torsional rigity (resistance to chassis twisting) and it dosn't brace the suspension points any further, it dosnt effect handling one bit. Simple.
If you truly believe what you just said, then i strongly recomend this brace for you.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m263/muzz1987/xxxc.jpg



It does and it will... but by how much is the question and if its worthwhile..


Id love to see some before and after testing of peak g force values on a skidpan. My money is on no increase in lateral g forces from a b/c pillar brace, even if your car truly does feel stiffer with it.


Please dont claim it does absolutly nothing cause thats BS
you chasis flexes... trust me .. u think it doesnt but it does.. everyhting helps..

Of course your chassis flexes! And im not claiming b/c pillars do nothing, im stating my educated opionion that i cant see any possible way bracing in a single plain across the chassis will effect the torsional rigidity of the frame, and theyre obviously not bracing suspension mount points.

Heres a fact for you, adding stiffness to the chassis, without effecting the torsional resistance, or the stiffness at the suspension mount points does absolutly NOTHING for the handling of the car.

Heres another fact for you: Making cirtain areas of the car flex less, dosnt automatically translate to an increase in torsional rigidity.

I dont doubt at all that flex is seen in these members, and that bracing them would reduce it. I do doubt that reducing this flex, with a single unsupported and hinged member, in a single plane across the chassis will effect the torsionl rigidity at all. Leading me right back to the first fact i stated, this is not my opionion, it is solid fact.


adding stiffness to the chassis, without effecting the torsional resistance to twist, or the stiffness at the suspension mount points does absolutly NOTHING for the handling of the car.

This leads back to your statement, which is incorrect.


you chasis flexes... trust me .. u think it doesnt but it does.. everyhting helps..

No, there are plenty of areas where flex could be reduced without any effect at all on the torsional resistance to twist or the stiffness at the suspension mounts. Without changes in these two areas, there is absolutly no effect on handling.
My guess is that even though there would be no effect on handling, that you still might feel the increase in stiffness, or even mentally perceive you can feel the difference (My gf is absolutly certain her car is faster with a full tank of fuel:zip: ).



And lets just stay on topic and not talk about sawy bar and tyres.. it like saying remove a turbo and your car handles better..
I dont know if your still talking to me, but dude, go re-read my posts there 100% on the topic of chassis stiffness/pillar braces etc. and how it relates to mechanical grip at the wheels. Try find one bit that isnt.:confused:


Of course bracing helps in stiffening things up... How much the bracing actually adds to the torsional rigidity of the car is the question.


EXACTLY:thumbsup:

[xtercii]

I believe BlitZ's comments were more towards bennjamin's posts.

[bennjamin]

I believe BlitZ's comments were more towards bennjamin's posts.

I believe Muzz's posts were aimed at blitz's posts aimed at bennjamins posts.

This is the fact - a Pillar bar WILL change your BUTT feeling but will NOT add anything to the strength of a chassis or torsional rigidity.

EK4R (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=9526) , where are you ? this is your thread. Decided for or against a pillar par ?

[BlitZ]

Muzz, I seriously hope eveyrhting u are saying is from personal track experience and not from text book cause the concept is so simple

the bar isnt a hinge.. its bolts dead down... It isnt ideal to use a single threaded bolt.. provided the structure in which the bolt is locked to solid.. The movements will be transferred to the bar..


Like a BOX

If the middle bar always remains 90 degrees or assist it to be close to 90 degrees the bar works

________
|
|-------- |
|________|



When conering... the torsion effect... if a pillar brace maintains or helkp maintains a pefect rectangle then it helps..
_______
/ /
/ /
/_______/

If the B pillar bar it mounted and the its not hinged the chasis it will not flex..
Even if it does flex, the bar will reduce it will be reduced..



I think u are doing far too much reading... way beyond the libraries...

[bennjamin]

a Pillar bar WILL change your BUTT feeling but will NOT add anything to the strength of a chassis or torsional rigidity.


This is my thoughts - both study experience and track experience...is this a e-penis war now lol?A pillar bar , regardless of size and shape will only go so far. The body of a car will still flex at the 4 corner points , like a box - with or without a pillar bar.

Ive started another thread to discuss ON and OFF street pillar bars....

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65927

[ginganggooly]

a Pillar bar WILL change your BUTT feeling but will NOT add anything to the strength of a chassis or torsional rigidity.

What you posted Blitz , isnt correct. The strongest points are the upper and lower limits. ITs best to reinforce those.

If it changes the perception of rigidity -above and beyond the placebo effect- and the chassis is not as limp as a wet noodle, you'll find that the brace is working, and is improving torsional rigidity.

For the brace to be effective, it needs to create a plane between the two pillars, which effectively means mounting the brace as a giant X between the tops and bottoms of the B-pillars.

Try it with a shoe box for a physical demonstration- secure a bamboo skewer to the middle of the box and try twisting the box, you'll find that the box has a little more torsional rigidity than without the skewer.
If you try it again, with two skewers in a big X, secured to the middle of the box, creating a plane, the box will be more difficult to twist....

[bennjamin]

For the brace to be effective, it needs to create a plane between the two pillars, which effectively means mounting the brace as a giant X between the tops and bottoms of the B-pillars.

Remember this discussion is not about that or any rollcage etc at all. Its about the basic 2 point B / C pillar bars from any EBAY or similar place. Guys refer to the other thread for more discussion.

EK4R , where are u ?

[BlitZ]

, regardless of size and shape will only go so far. The body of a car will still flex at the 4 corner points , like a box - with or without a pillar bar.




So u saying a bar wont help at all?;) dont leave Muzz hangin now

[EK4R]

Remember this discussion is not about that or any rollcage etc at all. Its about the basic 2 point B / C pillar bars from any EBAY or similar place. Guys refer to the other thread for more discussion.

EK4R , where are u ?

HAHA im here. reading more information i can handle. :angel:

[Muzz]

Sorry Muzz I think u have been reading too much books and honeslty hope you information is backed from real life experiences..


As ive stated before, i have not experianced the before and after of a b/c pillar brace, and chances are i never will, as there are hundreds of other mods that i would prefer to do first, that make a much larger impact on the actual performance of a vechicle.

I have been reading a lot;) , i now have a truly huge collection of automotive engineering books, books on suspension design/tuning, race car dynamics, race car preperation, many of which are falling to pieces because ive read them all over and over and over again.
However my views mostly come from studying mechanical engineering soon to be majoring in motorsport engineering.



the bar isnt a hinge.. its bolts dead down... It isnt ideal to use a single threaded bolt.. provided the structure in which the bolt is locked to solid...

I dont believe ive ever seen a b/c pillar brace that isnt hinged like this one http://www.prostreetonline.com/pso/images/products/SB-HCPB92G.jpg
If you could find me one that isnt, please show me a pic, id really appreciate it. Take a pic of yours if you like.
But anyways, hinged or not, bracing the pillars with a single bar across the chassis is not going to effect the torsional rigidity.


The movements will be transferred to the bar.. Like a BOX

If the middle bar always remains 90 degrees the bar would kick arse

________
| |
|-------- |
|________|



When conering...
_______
/ /
/ /
/_______/

If the Billar bar it mounted and the its not hinged it will not flex..
Even if it does it will be reduced..

So when you corner, which way does the roof lean lol? into the corner or out of it?
If you could also provide an explination why you believe this to happen, i really think it would help your case....

Sorry to spoil your unsupported thoughts, but the roof does not actually lean either way.
Assuming the roll stiffness rates are different front and rear (almost always the case), the cars chassis is under torsional tension during cornering, with equal and opposite torques being applied to the chassis at the front and rear.

Try doing this to a tissue box or any rectangular box for that matter, grab each end and twist it in opposite directions so the box slightly twists.
Does the center section of the box fold in one direction? No, there is an equal and opposite torque applied. If you took a thin slice across the box at any point across it, guess what, all the corners will still be at right angles, itll still be a perfect rectangle.
Will adding a brace across any of these sections (that arnt changing shape) make it twist less for the same applied torques?



I think u are doing far too much reading... way beyond the libraries

Why thankyou Mr BlitZ, i truly believe that the best way to learn about race car engineering, chassis design and suspension is to read the books written by the professional race engineers in the topmost levels of motorsport, short of working with them first hand of course! Studying mechanical engineering is also a massive help to truly get into the mind frame to understand the technical stuff.


Sorry Muzz I honeslty hope you information is backed from real life experiences..


And i hope your opionions are based on anything more than installing a b/c pillar brace, and saying "hmmm i think i can sorta feel it, it feels a little stiffer, hey my car must be faster"

Your a smart fellah, more than alot of people on this forum, i respect and agree with 99% of your posts in other threads, what extra experiance am i missing out on that you seem to have, apart for the fact youve installed a pillar brace and i havnt and never will?

[BlitZ]

As i said before i didnt feel anything great regarding the brace.. but i would doubt it does absolutely nothing..


A picture of a no higned b pillar brace and yes its my one..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/civic168/DSCF1946.jpg



Its clear that you dont believe the car to flex into a Rhombus... Quiet strange considering front and rear strut braces are very similiar..

if u dont believe the car flexes to a rhombus shape then with the the roof out of alignment then its completly up to u...
It jsut sounds logical to me and the others who have PM'ed me supporting what i am saying.. ;)

[fatboyz39]

People don't admit that there wrong. Blitz ii would leave it at that, we know that it works and help with body rigidity.

Here's a test, jack up the car on one side, you'll see the car flex (very notceable on old cars), then add all the bars b/c or whatever and see the difference then.

[BlitZ]

he is more real life honda examples...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=795829

One day I was about to get out of the car while it was raining and the passenger got out before me. When she opened the door, I saw a drop of water fall from the windshield. I couldn't belive my windshield was leaking http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthdown.gif
On another day my g/f was driving caddy-corner over a speed bump and I put my fingers where the windshield meets the headliner and it flexed as we went over the bump!!! If it was able to flex like that then there was not alot holding the windshield on at that corner. I pushed on the top of it from the inside and the whole corner moved outward about 1/8th of an inch!!! The glue holding the windshield in failed and allowed it to seperate from the car.


Another Example of windscreen cracking on track because of flex..

I cracked the windshield many years ago on my ITA CRX by hitting the berm a hard lick (Turn 13, the off-camber left hander at Mid-Ohio) and that car had a full six point weld in cage. It was one of the Kirk prebent, weld in cages. The crack was just an inch or two long at first and started on the driver's side edge about halfway up the A-pillar. As the race ran and the weak point was there, it migrated the crack a few more inches as the chassis was stressed. I am sure that it was from chassis flex even with the cage, not from a lack of flex. I know when I used to autocross my old Omni GLH Turbo and I had high autocross tire pressures and my shocks set really stiff on stock springs, when I drove the car to the hotel overnight I could windshield squeek as the chassis was flexing over the normal city streets. The suspension and tires were so stiff that they were not being compliant and transferring the need for motion to the next most compliant part- the shell of the car itself.

[Muzz]

People don't admit that there wrong. Blitz ii would leave it at that, we know that it works and help with body rigidity.

Here's a test, jack up the car on one side, you'll see the car flex (very notceable on old cars), then add all the bars b/c or whatever and see the difference then.

Roll my ****ing eyes!


I dont doubt at all that flex is seen in these members, and that bracing them would reduce it. I do doubt that reducing this flex, with a single unsupported and hinged member, in a single plane across the chassis will effect the torsionl rigidity at all. Leading me right back to the first fact i stated, this is not my opionion, it is solid fact.


So what theory, information, anything at all, do you have to support your thoughts more than my car feels stiffer, which i dont doubt at all?
Please respond to this question....

[BlitZ]

Since you are becoming an engineer.. I think this would make good discussion..

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_240SX_Performance_Modification/Chassis_Strengthening

Extract from Mr WIKI...

C-Pillar Bars

The s13 hatch in particular has a fair amount of flex in the C pillar area due to the extensive size of the rear opening. A viable upgrade would be a C pillar reinforcement bar that bolts to the rear seatbelt mounts. It should be noted that the mounts on the s13 zenki ('89-'90) are more towards the glass and the s13 chuki ('91-'94) hatchback seatbelt mounts are parallel. A solid metal bar may be economically produced by measuring the distance between the 2 points and drilling mounting holes for this model.
Note: These bracings are produced as well for coupes but in those instances tend to mainly just be cosmetic since its not a weak point for them.

doesnt meant it doesnt do zero..

[Muzz]

he is more real life honda examples...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=795829

One day I was about to get out of the car while it was raining and the passenger got out before me. When she opened the door, I saw a drop of water fall from the windshield. I couldn't belive my windshield was leaking http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthdown.gif
On another day my g/f was driving caddy-corner over a speed bump and I put my fingers where the windshield meets the headliner and it flexed as we went over the bump!!! If it was able to flex like that then there was not alot holding the windshield on at that corner. I pushed on the top of it from the inside and the whole corner moved outward about 1/8th of an inch!!! The glue holding the windshield in failed and allowed it to seperate from the car.


Another Example of windscreen cracking on track because of flex..

I cracked the windshield many years ago on my ITA CRX by hitting the berm a hard lick (Turn 13, the off-camber left hander at Mid-Ohio) and that car had a full six point weld in cage. It was one of the Kirk prebent, weld in cages. The crack was just an inch or two long at first and started on the driver's side edge about halfway up the A-pillar. As the race ran and the weak point was there, it migrated the crack a few more inches as the chassis was stressed. I am sure that it was from chassis flex even with the cage, not from a lack of flex. I know when I used to autocross my old Omni GLH Turbo and I had high autocross tire pressures and my shocks set really stiff on stock springs, when I drove the car to the hotel overnight I could windshield squeek as the chassis was flexing over the normal city streets. The suspension and tires were so stiff that they were not being compliant and transferring the need for motion to the next most compliant part- the shell of the car itself.

hahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah hahahhahhahahhahahahhahhahahahhaha, a question for you mr blitz, is the windshiels in a single plane across the chassis???

You havnt answered any of my previous questions to you, this ones an easy one, go for it!

[BlitZ]

You havnt answered any of my previous questions to you, this ones an easy one, go for it!

thought it would have been pretty damn simple for an an engineeering student..

centrifugal force, forces car to move outwards.. but tyres are pulling car back in...


so u have force from to top, mid, and lower sections to move outwards...
tyres come from the bottom/mid section to pull it in... therefore you roof could potentially flex.


Seriously ... why do u think having no sunroof is better than having sun roof in a race car..
Cause the roof flexes... B pillar brace would assist the same..


Damn man.. I seriously hope an engineering student who wants to get into motorsport has a better explaination to the theroy than an IT bum

[Muzz]

Since you are becoming an engineer.. I think this would make good discussion..

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_240SX_Performance_Modification/Chassis_Strengthening

Extract from Mr WIKI...

C-Pillar Bars

The s13 hatch in particular has a fair amount of flex in the C pillar area due to the extensive size of the rear opening. A viable upgrade would be a C pillar reinforcement bar that bolts to the rear seatbelt mounts. It should be noted that the mounts on the s13 zenki ('89-'90) are more towards the glass and the s13 chuki ('91-'94) hatchback seatbelt mounts are parallel. A solid metal bar may be economically produced by measuring the distance between the 2 points and drilling mounting holes for this model.
Note: These bracings are produced as well for coupes but in those instances tend to mainly just be cosmetic since its not a weak point for them.

Wow, great find! let me repeat myself for the 3rd time now.


I dont doubt at all that flex is seen in these members, and that bracing them would reduce it. While you may be able to feel the increased stiffness I do doubt that reducing this flex, with a single unsupported and hinged member, in a single plane across the chassis will effect the torsionl rigidity at all. Leading me right back to the first fact i stated, this is not my opionion, it is solid fact.


Before going out and trying to find more information to support your views that it does infactincrease the torsional rigidity, id really love to see some skid pan testing of peak lateral g's before, and after installing a pillar brace.

Even better would be some data, of a chassis torsional resistance to twist before and after adding a pillar brace, every car designed is tested in this manner.

[Muzz]

thought it would have been pretty damn simple for an an engineeering student..

centrifugal force, forces car to move outwards.. but tyres are pulling car back in...


so u have force from to top, mid, and lower sections...
tyres come from the bottom/mid section.

Ok so the force is pushing the roof outwards, thats correct. Lets say your cornering at 1g, and the weight of the roof is 80kg, that means that there is an 80kg force pushing out on the roof. This force is combated by six seperate pillars and six windows. Yes im sure the might be a couple of mm of flex at most, which brings me right back to my point for the fourth time, ill use bold for it ok.


I dont doubt at all that flex is seen in these members, and that bracing them would reduce it. While you may be able to feel the increased stiffness I do doubt that reducing this flex, with a single unsupported and hinged member, in a single plane across the chassis will effect the torsionl rigidity at all. Leading me right back to the first fact i stated, this is not my opionion, it is solid fact.


Do you understand the concept of torsional rigidity?

[BlitZ]

Even better would be some data, of a chassis torsional resistance to twist before and after adding a pillar brace, every car designed is tested in this manner.


hahah yeah great one.. Ill just do that tonight with my GTR computer ;) at the local carpak


It isnt all about TORSION .... there is also FLEX rigidity to take into consideration..

Stop emphasising on things and sit back and open you eyes to the bigger picture...


if you car flexes the weight transfer is mutipled.. I honestly give up...

believe what u like.. cant argue with people who doesnt want to listen

[Muzz]

Seriously ... why do u think having no sunroof is better than having sun roof in a race car..
Cause the roof flexes... B pillar brace would assist the same..


Id say its got a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that its adding weight at the highest possible point above the roll centre, rasing the centre of gravity, increasing the torque causing bodyroll, also amplifing the weight transfer between the wheels in breaking, acelerating and cornering, reducing the cars traction capacity.

[Muzz]

hahah yeah great one.. Ill just do that tonight with my GTR computer ;) at the local carpak

Nar, youd be much better off searching for articles from SAE reguarding torsional rigidity, im sure plenty of tests and studies have been carried out reguarding bracing to resist torsional twisting.

[BlitZ]

have u heard of cars that are so powerful that they buckle their roofs...
Mine does and cracked my sunroof

[Muzz]

As i said before i didnt feel anything great regarding the brace.. but i would doubt it does absolutely nothing..


A picture of a no higned b pillar brace and yes its my one..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/civic168/DSCF1946.jpg



Its clear that you dont believe the car to flex into a Rhombus... Quiet strange considering front and rear strut braces are very similiar..

if u dont believe the car flexes to a rhombus shape then with the the roof out of alignment then its completly up to u...
It jsut sounds logical to me and the others who have PM'ed me supporting what i am saying.. ;)

Sorry i missed this post, let me respond

As i said before i didnt feel anything great regarding the brace.. but i would doubt it does absolutely nothing..

So do i, it braces the pillars. What i doubt is that bracing the b/c pillars in this way, has any effect on the torsional resistance to twisting.


Its clear that you dont believe the car to flex into a Rhombus...

No, what i dont believe is that the torques that cause the torsional twisting causes the chassis to flex in a rhombus, it dosnt.
Its this torsional twisting that needs resisting, to improve the performance of the chassis. If the roof truly does move outwards in hard cornering, bracing to prevent this with b/c pillar braces, in a single plain across the chassis, will not effect the resistance to torsional twisting.


if u dont believe the car flexes to a rhombus shape then with the the roof out of alignment then its completly up to u...

To be honest, it never even crossed my mind, im talking soley about the resistance to torsional twisting and preventing it. It the roof slightly flexes outwards due to cornering forcesm this has no impact on torsional stiffness.
This would fall under my statement.

I dont doubt at all that flex is seen in these members, and that bracing them would reduce it. While you may be able to feel the increased stiffness I do doubt that reducing this flex, with a single unsupported and hinged member, in a single plane across the chassis will effect the torsionl rigidity at all. Leading me right back to the first fact i stated, this is not my opionion, it is solid fact.



Quiet strange considering front and rear strut braces are very similiar..

Actually no there not simular, strut bars are soley there to remove flex occouring at the suspension mount points, they contribute little to torsional rigidity (still some, seeing that the fenders slightly flex due to the torsional torque).

Pillar braces do not stiffen up the suspension mount points, they either
a)reduce flex
b)reduce flex in a way that increases torsional rigidity

they achieve a) not b).

[Muzz]

have u heard of cars that are so powerful that they buckle their roofs...
Mine does and cracked my sunroof

Yep, is it because they are powerful and the torsional twist is multiplied by the tailshaft, or is it because powerful cars see higher cornering g's that less powerful cars, causing greater torsional twisting forces lol? Well its certainly not the second option there!

Once again, i dont doubt that they brace the chassis, i doubt they brace the chassis in a way that reduces the torsional twisting due to the differences in front/rear roll stiffnesses.

[Muzz]

It isnt all about TORSION .... [COLOR=Black]there is also [COLOR=Lime]FLEX rigidity to take into consideration..

Stop emphasising on things and sit back and open you eyes to the bigger picture...

I could ask you to do the same, a fact that i stated before: the only 2 stiffnesses that actually effect the handling of a vechicle.
1. stiffness at the suspension mount points
2. torsional rigidity

flex that dosnt effect these values, dosnt effect handling.


if you car flexes the weight transfer is mutipled.. I honestly give up...


hhahaha, you gotta be kidding me! That is so incorrect its hilarious, care to share how this takes place. There is tons of tech articles out there on the net reguarding weight transfer, please find ANYTHING that supports ur claim.
U are very wrong my friend.


believe what u like.. cant argue with people who doesnt want to listen

Finally, at least somthing we agree on:p
Enjoy the greater cornering g forces!

im out!:wave:

[bennjamin]

b pillar is ok... doesnt help all that much and isnt really noticable.. mentally its great.. Ill be removing mine shortly..

you said it best to begin with Blitz , which we all agree with. But you want to go on and say otherwise.

keep the discussion to the other thread. EK4R , make up your own mind.